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Fight for the Love *Achievement Unlocked*


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#8276
Siansonea

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Ghost Warrior wrote...

jlb524 wrote...


The only problems with this are:

1)  Sexuality can change over time, either private or public sexuality.  For example, every LGBT person who ever came out of the closet has changed their public sexuality.

2)  Tali and Garrus are problematic as there's no indication (in ME1) that a quarian would be into a human or a turian would be into a human, including these specific characters.  They changed what type of people these characters could possibly find attractive at the core and didn't simply have them realize feelings for an individual of a type of people that they always did find attractive.

1) True enough

2) You are right again. But I already said I believe it was a mistake to introduce them as LIs in ME2 after giving no indication of that in ME1,as much as I found their romances amusing.

And I know that romancing same-sex human should be more acceptable than romancing opposite-sex alien on one level,but some reason it's not for a lot of people,me included. Not sure why though,I admit it doesn't make much sense. 

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that these aliens are 100% fictional and don't exist outside ME universe. Since gay humans most certainly exist,and it's not accepted by everyone in the real world,a lot of people mind such thing being transferred in the game. And if aliens existed too,I bet a lot of people would be against that too. I don't know,some things cannot be explained. But I would like to hear what do you think is a reason.


Well, I think people's lack of acceptance of homosexuality in real life is 100% the reason for their lack of acceptance of it in the game. But we have to be careful that we don't veer off topic when we're discussing this. Real-world attitudes toward homosexuality are certainly related to this topic, but the topic has to remain focused on the game itself rather than devolve into a debate about the world's attitudes toward it.

The bottom line (no pun intended) is that homosexuality does exist in the real world, and whatever BioWare does in relation to this issue does have an effect on how their product is perceived. They can:

1. Continue to do nothing, and they will be perceived as tacitly catering to the players who harbor anti-gay attitudes.

2. Include s/s LI options for Shepard, or otherwise acknowledge the existence of male homosexuals in the game itself (in a positive or neutral way), then they will be seen as trying to accommodate as many of their fans as possible.

3. Remove all heterosexual romances and offer players ONLY same-sex options that cannot be avoided, then they will be seen as catering to pro-gay players.

I think we all agree that the third scenario is beyond unlikely, but the second option should be the compromise that they should be striving toward, in my opinion.

#8277
Siansonea

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Ghost Warrior wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I'd also like to address the 'fanservice' issue. After ME1, many people clamored for a geth squad member, which at the time was a silly idea that many people disparaged as game-breaking and fanservice, and yet Legion is a great character who expands our understanding of the geth in new and interesting ways. Legion doesn't retcon anything we know about the geth in ME1, he just adds layers. People also asked for a salarian squad mate, so one could say that Mordin is a fanservice character. And yet, Mordin is an incredibly nuanced and thought-provoking character who I think is one of the best characters in the franchise. My point is, something that starts out as a 'fanservice' idea can easily become a wonderful addition to the series in its own right, so simply labeling something fanservice does not necessarily label it 'a bad idea'.

But do we know for sure that was fanservice?
Yes,I know same could be said for Garrus/Tali and S/S romances but those are just subplots which never seemed to have any effect to the main story.

But Mordin's and Legion's characters and LM-s could easily have big effect on ME3 main story which makes me wonder if they were indeed just a fanservice or something planned a long time ago.


How would Kaidan/Ashley/whoever revealing to same-sex Shepard that they are bisexual under some circumstances be anything more than a subplot which never has any affect on the main story? Objecting to purely optional content seems odd to me. If we don't like one of the options, we have other options. That's why they're called options.

We don't know with certainty that anything is or isn't fanservice, because we don't know who/what/when anything in ME2 was planned and implemented. The fact remains that there were calls for geth squad mates, salarian squad mates, and other features after ME1 was released. The fact remains that the dev team repeatedly tells us that they take our feedback to heart. These two things lead me to believe that Mordin and Legion are every bit as much fanservice as the Garrus and Tali romances are believed to be.

#8278
jlb524

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"Fanservice" can mean a few different things (as I understand).

First, it can be just adding in a little titillation for the players (i.e., Miranda's outfit for instance, the butt-shots, etc.)...something obviously sexually gratuitous. In this case, adding in a Geth squad mate, the Tali/Garrus romance, or an s/s romance wouldn't be fan service.

I guess the other notion is that "fan service" describes adding in something that doesn't necessarily belong, but is added b/c it will make people (the fans) happy. In that case, any romance would be fan service and adding in a member from a specific race that the fans wanted (salarian/geth) would be fan service, removing the ME1 elevators was fan service, and I could go on.

#8279
Ghost Warrior

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Siansonea II wrote...

How would Kaidan/Ashley/whoever revealing to same-sex Shepard that they are bisexual under some circumstances be anything more than a subplot which never has any affect on the main story? Objecting to purely optional content seems odd to me. If we don't like one of the options, we have other options. That's why they're called options.

I wasn't objecting or even talk about objecting.There was only one point I was trying to make with the post you quoted,that those romances are more likely to be fanservice just because of the fact they have no big effect on the game progress unlike Legion/Mordin who could have big effect on ME3.

But since this is quite off-topic I'll drop it.

#8280
Siansonea

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jlb524 wrote...

"Fanservice" can mean a few different things (as I understand).

First, it can be just adding in a little titillation for the players (i.e., Miranda's outfit for instance, the butt-shots, etc.)...something obviously sexually gratuitous. In this case, adding in a Geth squad mate, the Tali/Garrus romance, or an s/s romance wouldn't be fan service.

I guess the other notion is that "fan service" describes adding in something that doesn't necessarily belong, but is added b/c it will make people (the fans) happy. In that case, any romance would be fan service and adding in a member from a specific race that the fans wanted (salarian/geth) would be fan service, removing the ME1 elevators was fan service, and I could go on.


I agree, but I would call the first instance "pandering" rather than fanservice. After all, it's very nonspecific, whereas I think actual fanservice is giving fans what they ask for—even if it's ridiculous. For instance, I would characterize Samara's cleavage "pandering", though I would not call the Samara character "fanservice". I don't think anyone asked for a an old lady asari who won't sleep with you after ME1 was released. ;) That said, I don't even strongly object to the pandering, after all, I seem to recall some butt-shots of Jacob too. As long as it's equal-opportunity pandering, I say bring on the pandering (so moar hot dudes plz kthanx). :D

#8281
FKA_Servo

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I heard that Thessia is actually located in the Fan Service Nebula. Anyway, I'm in favor of equal opportunity pandering.

Going back to Siansonea's concerns about Miranda - would you have a problem with a romanceable non-squadmember? I know that this is basically Kelly, but this would obviously be more in depth with that. They've said they're cutting down on available squaddies, which obviously means that a lot of the ME2 roster might not make it. I think this could still work out as long as they have a place on the crew, a la Chakwas or Joker. You can still have meaningful interactions with them, still get all the dialogues, all the love scenes, etc....they're just not available for combat duty. Miranda takes her place as an intel specialist, maybe Jack gets work in the engine room with Tali, Gabby and Ken (just as an example). They'd still be integrated into the story - they'd be on the Normandy, they'd still be available for you.

It wouldn't even have to be the whole squad (if you save everyone in ME2, that would definitely be a bit crowded), but maybe just your LI gets stationed on the Normandy, with any other survivors off being useful somewhere else (maybe Thane working with the Hanar and surviving Drell, Mordin as an envoy to the STG, etc).

Modifié par TommyServo, 13 mai 2011 - 07:35 .


#8282
Ryzaki

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I wouldn't be against a handsome alliance general who helps Shepard out so often and maybe has a homebase that Shepard can visit periodically. (Somewhere private where Shep don't have to worry about the whole dang ship gossiping about his relationship). 

They wouldn't be a squaddie though. Maybe someone during missions who would inform Shepard of the state of the worlds being ravaged by the Reapers. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 mai 2011 - 07:42 .


#8283
Siansonea

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I don't mind a male Kelly as a s/s option, it's certainly better than nothing. I can't think of any existing characters that would be suitable, so it would probably need to be a new character. I would prefer that the s/s male LI NOT be Joker, though, but that's just a personal preference. I'm just not a fan of Seth Green's VA, or the Joker character in general.

#8284
FKA_Servo

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Siansonea II wrote...

I don't mind a male Kelly as a s/s option, it's certainly better than nothing. I can't think of any existing characters that would be suitable, so it would probably need to be a new character. I would prefer that the s/s male LI NOT be Joker, though, but that's just a personal preference. I'm just not a fan of Seth Green's VA, or the Joker character in general.


I meant Miranda (or any of the other squadmember romances in ME2). Assuming they don't make the cut as a playable squadmember, but they stay with you on the Normandy as part of the crew (since it's been all but confirmed that while most every squaddie will be in the game in some capacity, not all of them will be active squadmembers).

#8285
KawaiiKatie

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Siansonea II wrote...

I don't mind a male Kelly as a s/s option, it's certainly better than nothing. I can't think of any existing characters that would be suitable, so it would probably need to be a new character. I would prefer that the s/s male LI NOT be Joker, though, but that's just a personal preference. I'm just not a fan of Seth Green's VA, or the Joker character in general.


"KENNY" CHAMBERS WOULD MAKE MY DAY. Seriously, Bioware, just a little gay for my Jonathan Shepard? That's all he wants. That's all he wants.

Additionally, I would so be on board for a bisexual Joker romance. Probably because at this point, I wouldn't say no to any male character who responded to my gayShep's advances. I'd even take Conrad Verner. Anything that let my gayShep express his homosexuality the same way lesbian Shepard's can.

I get especially sentimental when I think of how Jokermance would play out... It would be adorable and awkward like Garrusmance, but with Mark Meer's voice acting. I... I'm melting over here.

Joker: So... how would this... work... exactly?
ManShep: Well, we'd be... careful... and... safe?
Joker: *eyebrow quirk*
ManShep: .....that came out wrong.

I WANT IT. I WANT AWKWARD GAY!SHEP. I WANT ANY GAY!SHEP. PLEASE, BIOWARE? PLEASE LET MY SHEPARD BE GAY.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 13 mai 2011 - 09:13 .


#8286
Siansonea

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TommyServo wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I don't mind a male Kelly as a s/s option, it's certainly better than nothing. I can't think of any existing characters that would be suitable, so it would probably need to be a new character. I would prefer that the s/s male LI NOT be Joker, though, but that's just a personal preference. I'm just not a fan of Seth Green's VA, or the Joker character in general.


I meant Miranda (or any of the other squadmember romances in ME2). Assuming they don't make the cut as a playable squadmember, but they stay with you on the Normandy as part of the crew (since it's been all but confirmed that while most every squaddie will be in the game in some capacity, not all of them will be active squadmembers).


I would have an issue with Miranda being a desk jockey on the Normandy, actually. Miranda's just not that hands-off. Now if she was injured and recovering in the medical bay, that would be a believable way to keep her out of the action, but for her to just be in her office filing reports would seem odd to me. Maybe if Mordin was a little too frail in his old age to be gallivanting around with Shepard, but still spry enough to man the lab, I could buy that. Maybe Thane's condition keeping him out of the action would be believable too, but the question remains what he would be doing instead. Some characters like Samara simply wouldn't be on board the Normandy if they weren't squad members, she really doesn't have a function other than to kill things/people. Zaeed, Grunt, Jack, and Garrus have the same issue, though perhaps Garrus could be calibrating the Thannix Cannon. ;)

#8287
Siansonea

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KawaiiKatie wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I don't mind a male Kelly as a s/s option, it's certainly better than nothing. I can't think of any existing characters that would be suitable, so it would probably need to be a new character. I would prefer that the s/s male LI NOT be Joker, though, but that's just a personal preference. I'm just not a fan of Seth Green's VA, or the Joker character in general.


"KENNY" CHAMBERS WOULD MAKE MY DAY. Seriously, Bioware, just a little gay for my Jonathan Shepard? That's all he wants. That's all he wants.

Additionally, I would so be on board for a bisexual Joker romance. Probably because at this point, I wouldn't say no to any male character who responded to my gayShep's advances. I'd even take Conrad Verner. Anything that let my gayShep express his homosexuality the same way lesbian Shepard's can.

I get especially sentimental when I think of how Jokermance would play out... It would be adorable and awkward like Garrusmance, but with Mark Meer's voice acting. I... I'm melting over here.

Joker: So... how would this... work... exactly?
ManShep: Well, we'd be... careful... and... safe?
Joker: *eyebrow quirk*
ManShep: .....that came out wrong.

I WANT IT. I WANT AWKWARD GAY!SHEP. I WANT ANY GAY!SHEP. PLEASE, BIOWARE? PLEASE LET MY SHEPARD BE GAY.


You don't need BioWare's permission to let your Shepard be gay, Katie. You do need their help to make him gay and happy, though. ;) Poor guy can't get no lovin' anywhere. :crying:

Honestly your ManShep/Joker exchange cracked me up, and if they did something sweet and cute with those two I wouldn't object. 

#8288
ElitePinecone

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Interesting discussion in the last few pages.

CHudson on Twitter (and I feel like all I'm doing these days is just quoting his tweets) responded to a suggestion/rumour that the ME3 squad was just the first game's five survivors (minus the Virmire death), without Wrex (assuming he survived) and plus James Vega by saying...

"Not exactly. More surprises coming on squad members in #ME3"

Seems to confirm new squad members. Probably not new romance options. Then again, combined with his tweet: "#ME3 will have relationships with new characters and old friends, some of it romantic. Beyond that, spoiler territory!"...

Who knows?

#8289
Darkhour

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In both ME1 and 2 they record gay dialog and leave it in for modders, but they won't leave it in the official game.  I doubt they will diverge from that course.

#8290
GameBoyish

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Barackus2 wrote...

Terror330 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Terror330 wrote...

For me I am happy with Liara as a f/f option, but I would like to have a human option. I'm kind of leaning towards Jack. I think an Aria romance would be nice, but I doubt it will happen.

As for the m/m option, I have no opinion. Kaidan seems to be the most popular choice. If there are two options I guess Jacob could work. Most people don't seem to really like him though.


Jacob is probably my least liked character in a Bioware game ever. I'm unsure if it's the forced 'bro friendship', the two lines of dialogue, the priiiiiize, or his deference to overblown badassery instead of, y'know, normal human behaviour.

I'd like to see Kaidan as an s/s option.  


Yeah, personally I was never really blown away by Jacob in any way either. Boring powers, boring personality.  Just...boring.  I was going to suggest Thane, but I don't really know what kind of shape he is going to be in for ME3.


Yea I'm hoping Jacob decides Cerberus is ultimately right overall and I have to fight him :devil:

But ontopic everyone knows they want to be in a relationship with Conrad Verner, admit it...ADMIT IT


Posted Image

Apparently a character needs DRAMAZ to be interesting in your logic.

GAY JACOB FTW

Haters gonna Hate.

Modifié par TriviaAeducan, 14 mai 2011 - 09:14 .


#8291
Terror330

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I wouldn't say Jacob needs drama, but his character needs to be developed a little more. I just got the impression he was a nice guy. I never picked up anything more then that. There just didn't seem to be a whole lot to him as a character. Hopefully in ME3 they'll find a way to make him a little more interesting, and make a m/m LI to his fans out there.

#8292
ardll

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I don't get why people read so much into this stuff... "who cares" is my opinion. If they stick some man on man action on there... so be it, if they don't... so be it! Why does it matter? It's a love story at the end of the day, and it's love story they wrote. Just because you're a gay man doesn't mean the games you play should allow you be a gay man, same for women. You're the player, playing out their story. It's of no consequence whether the story contains a gay man/woman or doesn't in my opinion! Just my two cents :-P If I'm honest, I would hazard a guess that Bioware didn't want to include male gay lovin' in a game like this because they assume (correctly or perhaps incorrectly?) that the majority of players will be youngish heterosexual males. Whether that's true or not is up for debate I suppose but my opinion is that if you had statistical data on the gender and sexual orientation of the entire mass effect player base, the stats would definitely peak in the young hetro male category. At the end of the day it's just economics, and they are catering to the market. I'm a hetro male in my 20's and I have 2 homosexual male friends. They have zero interest in games like Mass Effect. I'm not making a generalisation there, I'm just stating my experience.
*jumps into flame retardant suit*

Modifié par ardll, 14 mai 2011 - 10:51 .


#8293
Russalka

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People are free to suggest what ever they want, as long as they are respectful about it. Suggestions are good if they also make sense in the game. Someone expressing he or she is bisexual can make sense.

#8294
ardll

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Russalka wrote...

People are free to suggest what ever they want, as long as they are respectful about it. Suggestions are good if they also make sense in the game. Someone expressing he or she is bisexual can make sense.


I agree totally and there are plenty of games out there that let players do just that - Mass Effect just ain't really one of em' though, and that's not to it's detriment, that's just the name of the game!

Modifié par ardll, 14 mai 2011 - 11:02 .


#8295
Terror330

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I'm not a gay man. I'm a heterosexual. I wouldn't even use the m/m options. There are gay men that might want to use the options and there are some girls that would like to have this option as well. I am not personally interested in a m/m romance, but I still feel BioWare should put the option in the game for those that want it.

To me it's more about everyone getting the romance they want. If someone wants a m/m option, I think they should get it. The same things goes for a f/f options, since BioWare won't acknowledge that Liara is a f/f romance. They should just do it. It's been in other BioWare games. I don't see why it's been ignored in this one.

Based upon the videos I've seen it doesn't look as though it would require a whole lot of work on BioWare's part to make some s/s options available with some of the current characters. Of course, I would welcome new characters being made s/s options as well, if BioWare were to go that route. .

Modifié par Terror330, 14 mai 2011 - 11:22 .


#8296
Drachasor

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Terror330 wrote...

I'm not a gay man. I'm a heterosexual. I wouldn't even use the m/m options. There are gay men that might want to use the options and there are some girls that would like to have this option as well. I am not personally interested in a m/m romance, but I still feel BioWare should put the option in the game for those that want it.

To me it's more about everyone getting the romance they want. If someone wants a m/m option, I think they should get it. The same things goes for a f/f options, since BioWare won't acknowledge that Liara is a f/f romance. They should just do it. It's been doing in other BioWare games. I don't see why it's been ignored in this one.

Based upon the videos I've seen it doesn't look as though it would require a whole lot of work on BioWare's part to make some s/s options available with some of the current characters. Of course, I would welcome new characters being made s/s options as well, if BioWare were to go that route. .


I agree with this message 100%.

#8297
ElitePinecone

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 @ardll: Thanks for replying, and we don't generally bite/flame people to death :D

Your point about the market is valid, and it's pretty much what Bioware staffers have deigned to say when they do comment on the rationale behind putting s/s (or not) in their games. David Gaider explained as much when he was outlining their attitude to putting in gay romances in DAO.

What he also suggested, though, was that the content isn't just used by gay or lesbian players. A surprisingly high proportion of the total players used the s/s romances in DAO, more than would be expected if the *only* people who used it were gay or lesbian themselves. 

All we're suggesting is that there's a sizable market for this content even among straight players who want more romance options for their playthroughs, even apart from our concern that the range of love interests is a little narrow. 

Bioware are completely within their rights to ignore everything in this thread and make content for the largest market - that is economics, after all - but we would hope that a degree of equity, which has after all been present in many of their other games, is considered. 

#8298
Drachasor

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ElitePinecone wrote...

 @ardll: Thanks for replying, and we don't generally bite/flame people to death :D

Your point about the market is valid, and it's pretty much what Bioware staffers have deigned to say when they do comment on the rationale behind putting s/s (or not) in their games. David Gaider explained as much when he was outlining their attitude to putting in gay romances in DAO.

What he also suggested, though, was that the content isn't just used by gay or lesbian players. A surprisingly high proportion of the total players used the s/s romances in DAO, more than would be expected if the *only* people who used it were gay or lesbian themselves. 

All we're suggesting is that there's a sizable market for this content even among straight players who want more romance options for their playthroughs, even apart from our concern that the range of love interests is a little narrow. 

Bioware are completely within their rights to ignore everything in this thread and make content for the largest market - that is economics, after all - but we would hope that a degree of equity, which has after all been present in many of their other games, is considered. 


Except really, it isn't that much more work.  Most of the dialogue can stay the same.  Just some snippets here and there and perhaps a cut scene or two would have to change.  That's not so much when you consider the size of the game.

#8299
Ghost Warrior

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But let's look at this problem from another angle:
Trillions and trillions people live in the galaxy and your team is made out of 12 people (even less in ME3). What are the chances of at least one of them being gay? For humans,we know that gay population is in great minority,and as for aliens,we don't know if there is even such thing in their cultures.

I think BioWare made a mistake when they put so many LIs in ME2,I mean why should everyone be romancable? It is unrealistic and from that point of view,such mistake should not be expanded by adding gay LIs in ME3.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 14 mai 2011 - 11:33 .


#8300
Jamesnew2

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wish ya all the best :)