9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

catabuca wrote...

Anyone who starts a sentence with, "I have nothing against gays, but ..." gets an automatic ignore.
Just like anyone who starts a sentence with, "I'm not racist, but ...".

I´m neither racist, nor do I have anything against gays, but....

I think you´re over-reacting. The one you responded to actually gives reasons for his opposition to gay romances.
I do not at all agree with him, but it´s no reason to react like that.

[Tirigon]

catabuca wrote...

femShep is able to romance and sleep with Liara in the first game, with Kelly in the second, and she is able to come onto both Samara and [the person who is not Samara]. Why on earth does anybody think it is fair or representational to have that choice for femShep and not for manShep?

Liara, Samara and [the other] are asari, they do totally not count as female, so it´s not a gay romance.

Kelly is not really a LI at all, neither for FemShep nor for MaleShep.

[Tirigon]

Gorn Kregore wrote...

gays are spawns of satan! dur dur dur durr

You know, being a spawn of Satan is a compliment.
Satan is the only voice of reason and intelligence in a creation made by a cruel god who enslaved humanity.
After all, it was Satan who made Adam and Eve eating the famous apple and thus gave humanity the power of a free will.

[Tirigon]

mrsph wrote...

Asari are females. No matter what stupid crap Casey Hudson says to try and get around it.

Sure are. Only that they aren´t.

Asari are ALIENS, for f*ck´s sake. Sex with an asari is not any more a gay romance than if a woman lets a female dog lick her sacred place.

[ElitePinecone]

Tirigon wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Asari are females. No matter what stupid crap Casey Hudson says to try and get around it.

Sure are. Only that they aren´t.

Asari are ALIENS, for f*ck´s sake. Sex with an asari is not any more a gay romance than if a woman lets a female dog lick her sacred place.

Er, um. 

Wittand25 wrote...

Right now Bioware has the problem that either ME3 will start with big squad that leaves no place for newcomers ( and would alienate new players) or letting a big portion of the squad leave the normandy in the time between the games (this would pAss off the established fan-base).

You've raised an interesting problem here, and it's something that makes me very confident that we'll see a mostly new squad for Shepard in ME3. The problem in question is that assuming all surviving squadmates from Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 are carried over to ME3 (and we have to assume it's all-or-nothing, because having only certain squadmates from ME2 carry over would be impossible), some players could potentially have an ME3 squad of just four (Liara, the surviving Virmire human and their two ME2 minimum surviving squaddies), while others could have up to 15 (Liara, Virmire and the whole 12 ME2 ones). The combinations of these characters is also important. What if players were left with Kasumi and Zaeed, DLC squadmembers that some (I'm not sure of the percentages) players would not have in their game? Would Bioware really record an entire game's voice acting for characters that may not have survived, and that some players wouldn't have in their game? Game balance would fall out the window if the players' surviving squaddies were, for example, Jack and Samara - and they had no electronics talents. The effects on gameplay would be gigantic if one had 14 squadmates.

Basically put, having a squad in ME3 made up of previous games' squadmembers would be a logistical and gameplay nightmare. There is no way of reconciling the hundreds of different combinations of possible squadmates, or of dealing with the challenges of some players potentially having four squadmates and others having 14. The only solution I can think of is a cameo role for many of ME2's squaddies and a 'new' (although perhaps familiar characters) squad for ME3. I can see the Virmire squadmate returning, because Ash or Kaidan are guaranteed to be alive (unlike Wrex), and Liara (depending on her role in future DLC) also makign an appearance. 

So what does this mean? New squaddies? Most likely. New romance options? Probably. Same-sex romance options? I'd like to hope so. 

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 19 juillet 2010 - 11:49 .

[Siansonea]

Dead horse, meet baseball bat.

Can we not debate the Asari Are/Are Not Females topic for the billionth time?

[zvbxrpl]

Tirigon wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Asari are females. No matter what stupid crap Casey Hudson says to try and get around it.

Sure are. Only that they aren´t.

Asari are ALIENS, for f*ck´s sake. Sex with an asari is not any more a gay romance than if a woman lets a female dog lick her sacred place.

Yeah, except not, because, unlike a female dog, an Asari looks pretty much like a human woman, except for the blue skin and the stuff on her head.

I can fully understand Asari being immersed in the fact that most other species have men and women, and still not understanding why she's being called a lesbian for taking a female lover.  That Asari would probably think that those classifications for sexuality apply to species with more than one gender, and she'd be right.

But that's not the point.  The point is that if a woman is having sex with someone that looks like this, (http://ui10.gamespot...riconcept_2.jpg), then it's a fair assumption that she is into girls, whether or not they are blue.

Though your assertion could make for an interesting argument coming from the mouth of a teenager in the MEverse that doesn't want to admit she likes girls.

[Tirigon]

zvbxrpl wrote...



Yeah, except not, because, unlike a female dog, an Asari looks pretty much like a human woman, except for the blue skin and the stuff on her head.

It´s not look that matters.

Monkeys look pretty much like humans, too, AND ARE CLOSER TO HUMANS GENETICALLY EVEN!!!! and nevertheless you wouldn´t call sex with a monkey of the same gender homosexual but bestiality.
(Unless, of course, you WOULD call it gay, in which case this discussion is very much pointless:wizard:)

[zvbxrpl]

Tirigon wrote...

zvbxrpl wrote...



Yeah, except not, because, unlike a female dog, an Asari looks pretty much like a human woman, except for the blue skin and the stuff on her head.

It´s not look that matters.

Monkeys look pretty much like humans, too, AND ARE CLOSER TO HUMANS GENETICALLY EVEN!!!! and nevertheless you wouldn´t call sex with a monkey of the same gender homosexual but bestiality.
(Unless, of course, you WOULD call it gay, in which case this discussion is very much pointless:wizard:)

...

Nope.  The analogy is still strained to the point of uselesness. 

Chimpanzee (even more human than a monkey):http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chimpanzee_mom_and_baby_cropped.jpg

Asari: http://images1.wikia...ommon/blank.gif

Do you see how a lesbian would be attracted to one of these and not the other?

[Nordic Einar]

Guys, this isn't the place to debate the gender of Asari. That is addressed in the first post of this thread; I'd suggest you all take a look at that and let it be done with.



Further, lets try to avoid responding to, quoting, or becoming trolls. Just keep the discussion moving, boys n' girls.

[Hartge34]

elearon1 wrote...

It was the greatest disappointment for me that Tali was not romancable by a Female Shepard in ME2.

During the first game I kept thinking "Liara's great and all, but I really wish I could start a romance with Tali." When I first discovered a romance was possible in the second game I was elated - but when it started to look like Tali wouldn't be falling for my FemShep I fealt trepidatious ... was it possible they would bring me so close to my ardent hope and then deny me at that step? Rushing to the forums I discovered this was, in fact, the case and it killed part of the game for me.

Sure, I *could* start another game with a Male Shepard and pursue the relationship that way - but it wouldn't be *my* Shep; MY Shep was a proud, devious, unforgiving, rogue of a woman who also happened to be a lesbian, and to change that ... well, it would have taken the story away from me and I would never have got it back.

So I had to watch my Shep grow close to the crush of her life and never be able to breach the barrier between them. Perhaps there is something in that, for purpose of rp, but it doesn't leave me happy and - if it has to be that way - I still wish the game had let me investigate that route more fully. (I would not mind playing the angsty "I'll never have the woman I love" Shep, but if I have to I'd like the story to recognize that)

Seing as i am bad with words i can only say.. BIOWARE! pay attention to what  elearon1 wrote!
This is exactly how i felt to, i cant be arsed playing male chars in any game and definitly not romance them so
yea it felt like a huge part of my character was missing in the end.
I mean with so many options for shaping ure own story this is just Meh!

[FataliTensei]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Asari are females. No matter what stupid crap Casey Hudson says to try and get around it.

Sure are. Only that they aren´t.

Asari are ALIENS, for f*ck´s sake. Sex with an asari is not any more a gay romance than if a woman lets a female dog lick her sacred place.

Er, um. 

Wittand25 wrote...

Right now Bioware has the problem that either ME3 will start with big squad that leaves no place for newcomers ( and would alienate new players) or letting a big portion of the squad leave the normandy in the time between the games (this would pAss off the established fan-base).

You've raised an interesting problem here, and it's something that makes me very confident that we'll see a mostly new squad for Shepard in ME3. The problem in question is that assuming all surviving squadmates from Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 are carried over to ME3 (and we have to assume it's all-or-nothing, because having only certain squadmates from ME2 carry over would be impossible), some players could potentially have an ME3 squad of just four (Liara, the surviving Virmire human and their two ME2 minimum surviving squaddies), while others could have up to 15 (Liara, Virmire and the whole 12 ME2 ones). The combinations of these characters is also important. What if players were left with Kasumi and Zaeed, DLC squadmembers that some (I'm not sure of the percentages) players would not have in their game? Would Bioware really record an entire game's voice acting for characters that may not have survived, and that some players wouldn't have in their game? Game balance would fall out the window if the players' surviving squaddies were, for example, Jack and Samara - and they had no electronics talents. The effects on gameplay would be gigantic if one had 14 squadmates.

Basically put, having a squad in ME3 made up of previous games' squadmembers would be a logistical and gameplay nightmare. There is no way of reconciling the hundreds of different combinations of possible squadmates, or of dealing with the challenges of some players potentially having four squadmates and others having 14. The only solution I can think of is a cameo role for many of ME2's squaddies and a 'new' (although perhaps familiar characters) squad for ME3. I can see the Virmire squadmate returning, because Ash or Kaidan are guaranteed to be alive (unlike Wrex), and Liara (depending on her role in future DLC) also makign an appearance. 

So what does this mean? New squaddies? Most likely. New romance options? Probably. Same-sex romance options? I'd like to hope so. 

I think that we'll likely get back our remaining squaddies from ME 1(unless bioware doesn't care about their original fans...which lately it seems that way) and a few sqauddies from ME2, most likely Miranda, Jacob, and possibly Legion.

Most of the others have reasons to leave to have already said they will leave after the suicide mission

[ElitePinecone]

FataliTensei wrote...

I think that we'll likely get back our remaining squaddies from ME 1(unless bioware doesn't care about their original fans...which lately it seems that way) and a few sqauddies from ME2, most likely Miranda, Jacob, and possibly Legion.

Most of the others have reasons to leave to have already said they will leave after the suicide mission

My issue with this though is that you're assuming that Miranda, Jacob and Legion are all still on the Normandy after the suicide mission. There's a fair chance that in many people's games, they won't be. In fact, no squadmember except for Liara is guaranteed to have survived beyond the end of Mass Effect 2. Some players will deliberately import save games into ME3 where only two squadmembers from ME2 are left, just to test the import system. Some will import saves that have a full crew. How would the game handle this situation? From Bioware's standpoint, it's easier in gameplay terms to 'scrap' ME2's squadmembers (for example, by starting the game some time later when everyone has moved on) and have them pop up in cameo roles providing they still exist. This would clear the road for new squadmembers.

And these new squadmembers, in a roundabout kinda way, would allow the possibility of same-sex romances beyond the efforts we've already seen (admittedly, not many) in ME and ME2. 

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 20 juillet 2010 - 06:48 .

[Ziggy]

This is what they're doing in DA2:

David Gaider wrote...

an icon is represented in the middle of the dialogue wheel when we need to express a particular intent, such as "Intimidate" or "Flirt" or "Combat"

Sounds promising...

[Onyx Jaguar]

Sounds like Alpha Protocol...

[ElitePinecone]

Em23 wrote...

This is what they're doing in DA2:

David Gaider wrote...
an icon is represented in the middle of the dialogue wheel when we need to express a particular intent, such as "Intimidate" or "Flirt" or "Combat"

Sounds promising...

This does sound very good. Certainly clears up the ambiguity in the dialogue. Here's hoping it's extended to ME3.

[Tirigon]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Em23 wrote...

This is what they're doing in DA2:

David Gaider wrote...
an icon is represented in the middle of the dialogue wheel when we need to express a particular intent, such as "Intimidate" or "Flirt" or "Combat"

Sounds promising...

This does sound very good. Certainly clears up the ambiguity in the dialogue. Here's hoping it's extended to ME3.

I wait with hoping until I have seen how it is done ingame.

Colored text seems like it would remove ambiguity, too, and it sucked.......



To zvbxrpl: Linkfail at the asari picture:police:
Anyways, I can see why someone would be attracted to asari but not to monkeys. (After all, I am....) I can NOT see how it would make a woman a lesbian to be attracted to asari.

[catabuca]

Folks might be interested in a snippet of conversation between a forumite and David Gaider I posted in a couple of other threads on the ME2 forums. I'll go and dig it out in a minute, but for context, it's in the DA2 forums, and the forumite began by suggesting that it makes more financial sense for the company to go after the mainstream crowd than it does to 'stay true' to the more niche fans. Gaider essentially agreed this is part of the reason certain decisions are made, and posted his own link to an article that states as much.



So, yeah, the ME trilogy isn't about staying true to the spirit of the first one, or to listening to the fans, it's about ensuring the best return on their investment. That's capitalism, folks. (And that's why I am a socialist.)

[mattahraw]

catabuca wrote...

Folks might be interested in a snippet of conversation between a forumite and David Gaider I posted in a couple of other threads on the ME2 forums. I'll go and dig it out in a minute, but for context, it's in the DA2 forums, and the forumite began by suggesting that it makes more financial sense for the company to go after the mainstream crowd than it does to 'stay true' to the more niche fans. Gaider essentially agreed this is part of the reason certain decisions are made, and posted his own link to an article that states as much.

So, yeah, the ME trilogy isn't about staying true to the spirit of the first one, or to listening to the fans, it's about ensuring the best return on their investment. That's capitalism, folks. (And that's why I am a socialist.)

that's a shame. If they treated it like Jade Empire it'd be almost no extra investment at all. Same scene whether it's same sex or opposite. I'm sure they'd want to do a little more but heck, if i have to pick no S/S or re-using a scene from the opposite sex, i'd go with the latter.

[ElitePinecone]

I assume you were referring to this quote from David Gaider?

David Gaider wrote...

Well, how about this then: we're very aware of the desires of our fans when it comes to romances, whether they be homosexual or otherwise. Being able to include any kind of content that's really only useable by a relatively small percentage of the player base is often problematic-- it's not an issue of "want to" but rather "able to". There's also the issue of where you put the resources you have-- adding content for extra player options is great, but if they're options that many players will not use or event want to use it's not necessarily the best use of those resources. I can't really fault a decision to provide more options for a greater amount of players as opposed to less options for everyone.

There's a fallacy at work among people who come to these forums that romances, once they're included in a game, become a right-- that if we have romances they must be allocated "fairly" or it's disciminatory. But you don't have a right to romances in a game-- any more than you have a right to free worship or to be an elf. It's a difficult issue to discuss, because we don't look on it as an issue of fairness. It's content, like any other sort of content, and we'll only ever be able to include a limited amount of it so we have to make the best of it we can, and we're always going to try and be inclusive of as many of our players' desires are we can.

Frankly I'm not surprised. Disappointed, but not surprised.

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 20 juillet 2010 - 12:28 .

[catabuca]

Elite - that wasn't the one, but it's a good one nonetheless. Actually, I find his argument to be utter bull****. He says it's not an issue of fairness - I'm assuming he's not someone who's playing a game and feeling left out then.



If there is suddenly budget and time and room to shoe-horn in a Garrus and Tali romance, and there is room for a f/f romance, but "oops, sorry, ran out of time for the m/m romance, again!" - yeah. That's balancing out the desires of the players with the requirements of the business model. Sure. If Gaider et al can't see why people would be pissed then we're either not being eloquent enough, or they simply do not want to see it.



(I'm going to find the other quote ...)

[catabuca]

Here it is:

David Gaider wrote...

My fear is that the gaming industry (including BioWare at this point, I'm sad to say) is moving with the rest of the entertainment industry into trying to find this "mythical" mainstream audience. All this does is make mish-mashes of genres and mediocre products that large numbers can go "eh, it was alright" about.

Bottom line, it makes finanacial sense - better to have 2/3rds of the game consumers buying and forgetting your game in a couple months than 1/3rd of the game consumers buying and loving your game to death.

Maybe.

I'd suggest maybe taking a look here: www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/publishers-note/7688-Publisher-Note-10-E-for-Everyone-Except-Me

It's not a bad article, in terms of explaining some of the realities we face. I don't think it's the entire reason these choices were made, as DAO was quite successful on its own, but it certainly addresses the idea you're expressing.

[Tirigon]

catabuca wrote...

Folks might be interested in a snippet of conversation between a forumite and David Gaider I posted in a couple of other threads on the ME2 forums. I'll go and dig it out in a minute, but for context, it's in the DA2 forums, and the forumite began by suggesting that it makes more financial sense for the company to go after the mainstream crowd than it does to 'stay true' to the more niche fans. Gaider essentially agreed this is part of the reason certain decisions are made, and posted his own link to an article that states as much.

So, yeah, the ME trilogy isn't about staying true to the spirit of the first one, or to listening to the fans, it's about ensuring the best return on their investment. That's capitalism, folks. (And that's why I am a socialist.)

You really needed a Gaider post to figure that out? To me, that was clear about at the time when I played it the first time:police: