9243 réponses à ce sujet

[catabuca]

Tirigon wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Folks might be interested in a snippet of conversation between a forumite and David Gaider I posted in a couple of other threads on the ME2 forums. I'll go and dig it out in a minute, but for context, it's in the DA2 forums, and the forumite began by suggesting that it makes more financial sense for the company to go after the mainstream crowd than it does to 'stay true' to the more niche fans. Gaider essentially agreed this is part of the reason certain decisions are made, and posted his own link to an article that states as much.

So, yeah, the ME trilogy isn't about staying true to the spirit of the first one, or to listening to the fans, it's about ensuring the best return on their investment. That's capitalism, folks. (And that's why I am a socialist.)

You really needed a Gaider post to figure that out? To me, that was clear about at the time when I played it the first time:police:

As it was to me. I didn't need that post, but since cries of 'EVIDENCE!!!' abound all the time on threads like this, I thought it prudent to pop the quote in here should anyone want to reference it in the future

[Tirigon]

catabuca wrote...

If there is suddenly budget and time and room to shoe-horn in a Garrus and Tali romance, and there is room for a f/f romance, but "oops, sorry, ran out of time for the m/m romance, again!" - yeah. That's balancing out the desires of the players with the requirements of the business model. Sure. If Gaider et al can't see why people would be pissed then we're either not being eloquent enough, or they simply do not want to see it.

It´s especially ridiculous if the Same Sex content has already been created - at least partly - and then been cut later.
Seriously, I wish I could punch every assclown who says it´s been cut for time and ressource issues in his / her stupid head:ph34r:

[ElitePinecone]

One quote from the article David Gaider posted stood out for me: "This is harmful to our industry, of course, because the ability to target niches goes hand in hand with the ability to take creative risks, while the demand for wide audiences leads to stultification and decay."



Catering to a broad audience is inherently a self-defeating proposition. Bioware believes it can balance the demands of its traditional niche market with newer, 'mainstream' gamers attracted to guns, explosions and buxom sidekicks. The weighting has been shifted far to the centre, broad, mainstream (also dull, repetitive, uninspiring).

[catabuca]

Tirigon wrote...

catabuca wrote...

If there is suddenly budget and time and room to shoe-horn in a Garrus and Tali romance, and there is room for a f/f romance, but "oops, sorry, ran out of time for the m/m romance, again!" - yeah. That's balancing out the desires of the players with the requirements of the business model. Sure. If Gaider et al can't see why people would be pissed then we're either not being eloquent enough, or they simply do not want to see it.

It´s especially ridiculous if the Same Sex content has already been created - at least partly - and then been cut later.
Seriously, I wish I could punch every assclown who says it´s been cut for time and ressource issues in his / her stupid head:ph34r:

I shouldn't laugh, but hehe 'assclown' Yeah, I'm with you on that one.

[catabuca]

ElitePinecone wrote...

One quote from the article David Gaider posted stood out for me: "This is harmful to our industry, of course, because the ability to target niches goes hand in hand with the ability to take creative risks, while the demand for wide audiences leads to stultification and decay."

Catering to a broad audience is inherently a self-defeating proposition. Bioware believes it can balance the demands of its traditional niche market with newer, 'mainstream' gamers attracted to guns, explosions and buxom sidekicks. The weighting has been shifted far to the centre, broad, mainstream (also dull, repetitive, uninspiring).

It is a very interesting article, and one that isn't easy to dismiss, that's for sure. Of course, the part you quoted is important, and I fear easy to lose in the rest of it. There are certain market realities, and then there are companies who think creatively to innovate within those realities. The market may look that way now, but it can be reshaped, just as it has been shaped from what it was to what it is today. That article has a whiff of defeatism about it that doesn't bode well for anything niche, nor for real innovation. We're full of doom and gloom a lot of the time, and I guess that apart from continuing to make our voice heard (although the devs' absence from the forums these days is conspicuous) all we can do is cross our fingers and hope BW manages to meld the excellent aspects of the relatively niche ME1 with the excellent aspects of the broader ME2, and create something that can sure up their fan base for years to come.

And GIVE US ****ING S/S ROMANCE!

[ElitePinecone]

I share your hope, certainly. I'd love to be surprised in a year or so when ME3 turns out to be a masterpiece of balance between detail and broad appeal, niche and mainstream. I'd definitely love if Bioware had a little more vision in its approach, rather than being reactionary and market-driven. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Those quotes from Gainer don't exactly fill me with confidence, however.

[catabuca]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I share your hope, certainly. I'd love to be surprised in a year or so when ME3 turns out to be a masterpiece of balance between detail and broad appeal, niche and mainstream. I'd definitely love if Bioware had a little more vision in its approach, rather than being reactionary and market-driven. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Those quotes from Gainer don't exactly fill me with confidence, however.

Yep. I'm going to try to hold on to that hope. I'd like to think that if anyone has the balls to do it Bioware do. But mostly I already feel that slight empty feeling of advance disappointment, because I know how bummed I was that ME2 didn't live up to my expectations. Perhaps my expectations were too high. But they were only as high as Bioware encouraged them to be.

[FataliTensei]

ElitePinecone wrote...

One quote from the article David Gaider posted stood out for me: "This is harmful to our industry, of course, because the ability to target niches goes hand in hand with the ability to take creative risks, while the demand for wide audiences leads to stultification and decay."

Catering to a broad audience is inherently a self-defeating proposition. Bioware believes it can balance the demands of its traditional niche market with newer, 'mainstream' gamers attracted to guns, explosions and buxom sidekicks. The weighting has been shifted far to the centre, broad, mainstream (also dull, repetitive, uninspiring).

Those last 3 words describe my Mass Effect 2 experience

[Onyx Jaguar]

Staying true to a niche fanbase is stupid from a money making perspective and from a creative perspective

[FataliTensei]

catabuca wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

I share your hope, certainly. I'd love to be surprised in a year or so when ME3 turns out to be a masterpiece of balance between detail and broad appeal, niche and mainstream. I'd definitely love if Bioware had a little more vision in its approach, rather than being reactionary and market-driven. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Those quotes from Gainer don't exactly fill me with confidence, however.

Yep. I'm going to try to hold on to that hope. I'd like to think that if anyone has the balls to do it Bioware do. But mostly I already feel that slight empty feeling of advance disappointment, because I know how bummed I was that ME2 didn't live up to my expectations. Perhaps my expectations were too high. But they were only as high as Bioware encouraged them to be.

ME2 defintely didn't live up to the hype of its advertising, and they should remove the whole marketing campaign that revolves around telling customers that "it's their story and their shepard".

[Siansonea]

FataliTensei wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

One quote from the article David Gaider posted stood out for me: "This is harmful to our industry, of course, because the ability to target niches goes hand in hand with the ability to take creative risks, while the demand for wide audiences leads to stultification and decay."

Catering to a broad audience is inherently a self-defeating proposition. Bioware believes it can balance the demands of its traditional niche market with newer, 'mainstream' gamers attracted to guns, explosions and buxom sidekicks. The weighting has been shifted far to the centre, broad, mainstream (also dull, repetitive, uninspiring).

Those last 3 words describe my Mass Effect 2 experience

Something keeps you here in the community and playing the game, so I guess the game isn't that awful, right? Of course I agree that the game has flaws, EVERY game has flaws. But Big Picture? Mass Effect 2 is a great game. All I have to do is watch gameplay videos of the other games out there, and I regain my appreciation for the ME series.

[catabuca]

Honestly? What keeps me here is the amount I invested in ME1. While ME2 is a good game, it's acceptable to express disappointment while remaining hopeful for the final installment, and while still feeling favourable towards the idea behind the franchise.

[Tirigon]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Staying true to a niche fanbase is stupid from a money making perspective and from a creative perspective

From a money making perspective, yes. From a creative one? Certainly not. It´s the mainstream that wants always the same sh!t. just look at Call of Duty.

[Tirigon]

Siansonea II wrote...


Something keeps you here in the community and playing the game, so I guess the game isn't that awful, right? Of course I agree that the game has flaws, EVERY game has flaws. But Big Picture? Mass Effect 2 is a great game. All I have to do is watch gameplay videos of the other games out there, and I regain my appreciation for the ME series.

You need to play Alien vs Predator then and you´ll change your mind.

[catabuca]

Tirigon wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


Something keeps you here in the community and playing the game, so I guess the game isn't that awful, right? Of course I agree that the game has flaws, EVERY game has flaws. But Big Picture? Mass Effect 2 is a great game. All I have to do is watch gameplay videos of the other games out there, and I regain my appreciation for the ME series.

You need to play Alien vs Predator then and you´ll change your mind.

Not to derail the thread too much, but I've just finished playing Assassin's Creed II for the first time, and was totally blown away by it. My only grumble was that I'm not a huge fan of timed missions, but as long as I kept my cool I made it through them. It rates higher on my personal scale of gaming joy™ than ME2.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Tirigon wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Staying true to a niche fanbase is stupid from a money making perspective and from a creative perspective

From a money making perspective, yes. From a creative one? Certainly not. It´s the mainstream that wants always the same sh!t. just look at Call of Duty.

Call of Duty is the very definition of staying true to the fanbase, WaW was pretty much a CoD4 mod (look at CoD3 which tried to do something different, instead CoD4 set the standard building off of CoD2 which actually was fairly different from CoD1)

Basically in order to make progress, or to do something different you have to risk pissing off the fanbase.  Relevant to thread?  No.  But this whole page really wasn't.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 20 juillet 2010 - 07:54 .

[derLoko]

catabuca wrote...
manShep/Kaidan reunited on Horizon:

That example is kinda unfair.
There's no cut content there, Kaidan is simply acting as if talking to femShep.
Arguing that m/m was intentionally cut from ME1 is a little unfair as well. Do you have some real proof for that, like an interview?

F.e. has anyone played KOTOR 2? Heck, that game had TONS of cut content that was actually essential - entire scenes and areas were already done but missing from the game because the devs ran out of time to implement and test them.


edit: But one thing I'd really like to see would be a "Trilogy director's cut" or something. All 3 games in 1 world, with cut scenes and some new ones etc.

Modifié par derLoko, 20 juillet 2010 - 08:19 .

[spacehamsterZH]

derLoko wrote...

Arguing that m/m was intentionally cut from ME1 is a little unfair as well. Do you have some real proof for that, like an interview?

The Maleshep/Kaidan sex cutscene is on Youtube, or at least it used to be. I'm not entirely sure how it ended up there, but I think someone just found it buried in the ME1 code. And it can't be the result of a mod because there's voice acting.

Whether it was pulled because BW got cold feet or they just never got around to finishing it and it wasn't a high priority is a different story, of course.

Modifié par spacehamsterZH, 20 juillet 2010 - 08:58 .

[FataliTensei]

catabuca wrote...

Honestly? What keeps me here is the amount I invested in ME1. While ME2 is a good game, it's acceptable to express disappointment while remaining hopeful for the final installment, and while still feeling favourable towards the idea behind the franchise.

Yep, my love for ME1 keeps me here, I can be disapointed with ME2 if I want and I can be vocal about it. I found the first playthrough moderately enjoyable for the first half of the game, but after that it was way to dull and reptitive to keep. Which is why I traded ME2 in months ago and kept ME1.

And catabuca I totally agree with you on Assassin's Creed 2, it  was much more enjoyable and gripping that ME2, I played that game multiple times and never got tired of it. *Sorry for the slight derailment, I'm done now.

Modifié par FataliTensei, 20 juillet 2010 - 10:41 .

[ElitePinecone]

The MShep/Kaidan videos are on the frontpage of this thread, but for convenience I'll repost them:

Romance pt. 1:
Romance pt. 2:
Romance pt. 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FCN5f1hEt8&feature=related
MShep telling Liara "he's only interested in men": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HaIk0lnQE
Kaidan love scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPMOlEfhWGE&feature=related

ME2 Kaidan reunion, imported from ME: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWq4ZHZ6ExU&feature=related

The ME2 reunion does appear to just have Kaidan treat MShep as if he was female, but certainly the Mass Effect cutscenes have new dialogue from Kaidan and Mark Meer (several lines are missing though).

There are also lines recorded for a FemShep/Ashley romance, which was then cut:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Mwiqq-Y5r4&feature=video_response

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 21 juillet 2010 - 01:46 .

[Nordic Einar]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Staying true to a niche fanbase is
stupid from a money making perspective and from a creative
perspective

Tirigon wrote...

From a money making perspective, yes. From a creative one? Certainly not. It´s the mainstream that wants always the same sh!t. just look at Call of Duty.

Niche markets are financially unfeasible? Stardock Entertainment would like to have a talk with you two.

TL;DR? Unsatisfied with the revenue cut they were receiving from their publishers, they began publishing their own extremely niche games on their own. Without any sort of copywrite protection whatsoever - in fact, some of their developers have been heard to encourage pirates to steal their games, because it often leads to more people buying them.

Both Galactic Civilizations II and Sins of a Solar Empire dominated PC Sales Charts on their release - this is without thousands of dollars in advertising or "hype". These games sell extremely well - so well in fact that Stardock, much like Valve, sponsors and supports indie developers.

They sell as well as they do because they stay loyal to their niche. They do what Bioware USED to, and are extremely successful because of it.

Niche markets exist because they're viable - otherwise they wouldn't be a market.

[War Houndoom]

I myself am gay, and I play as a gay shepard the best I can, but its frustrating that there isn't any homosexual romance options for me. In a game where you have the ability to choose how you want to play it is very disappointing that the developers did not include such options.

[Anezay]

I support the idea of it, although I don't think that characters that have already been established as heterosexual should suddenly want to do it with a same sex Shep. Think about how it would be if it were reversed. A gay man isn't suddenly go straight, and a straight LI isn't going to just become gay. That would be out of character. Kaiden and Ashley were originally planned to be bisexual. Thane and Tali weren't. I'm all for freedom, but not at the cost of the characters themselves. I hope that there can be homosexual LIs in ME3, but they also have to make some damn sense, rather than retconning existing characters. Don't accept sell outs.

[Tirigon]

Nordic Einar wrote...


Niche markets are financially unfeasible? Stardock Entertainment would like to have a talk with you two.

TL;DR? Unsatisfied with the revenue cut they were receiving from their publishers, they began publishing their own extremely niche games on their own. Without any sort of copywrite protection whatsoever - in fact, some of their developers have been heard to encourage pirates to steal their games, because it often leads to more people buying them.

Both Galactic Civilizations II and Sins of a Solar Empire dominated PC Sales Charts on their release - this is without thousands of dollars in advertising or "hype". These games sell extremely well - so well in fact that Stardock, much like Valve, sponsors and supports indie developers.

They sell as well as they do because they stay loyal to their niche. They do what Bioware USED to, and are extremely successful because of it.

Niche markets exist because they're viable - otherwise they wouldn't be a market.

Considering I never even heard of  Stardock or their games, I doubt they are as successful as whoever makes CoD or Blizzard or EA Games or....

[Poaches]

If you want to go that route, might as well suggest everyone should make fps's like everyone else. Because ya know, a large chunk of mainstream gamers never heard of rpgs, turn based, or god forbid, 4X games, but certainly not as successful as fps's. financially unfeasible and all that.