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[shinyblacklatexkitty]

There are also lines recorded for a FemShep/Ashley romance, which was then cut:

You BASTARDS. So they deliberately removed options for bi and gay female gamers just so they could sell it in BigotMart...

This is the kind of reason people don't like America. We need more UK and European games...


edit: I haven't got far enough in the new game to see any of the stuff yet but cos of this I went and had a look at the wiki:
http://masseffect.wi...mance_options_2
apparently all the lesbian relationships either fail or are one-offs, because obviously they aren't "real" relationships.
One of three males can be your "paramour" that's it.
(Not even Jack who is way too cool to be straight??? I actually heard about her from a friend and it's what made me buy the game finally, I'm not sure if I should take it as a compliment haha )

Modifié par shinyblacklatexkitty, 22 juillet 2010 - 10:19 .

[War Houndoom]

sickserb wrote...

[i can smell the contradiction

Contradictions taste good.

[Siansonea]

I see we're on the "Shepard as pre-defined character" groove of this broken record. We Have Dismissed That Claim. That is all.

[Nordic Einar]

Poor sw33t compiled the FAQ for nothing, since nobody apparently reads it >.>

[lewis_1306]

Wittand25 wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

Poaches wrote...

Every-time someone suggests that it should be DLC only thinking it'll appease everyone. I'll ask: How would you like it if you were singled out that you have to pay 4.99 to have an LI where everyone else does out of the box? And expect no PR scat storm and nerd rage that would've made the liara sex scene look like a news blip?

i see a problem with your rational...it is the gay gamer community that wants there to be bi/gay options in Mass Effect...not the "straight" community...the idea of DLC i believe was a suggestion from the gay gamer community therefore would it be that you guys/girls singled yourselves out...so really i cant help but say that you brought this upon yourself...yet youre going to blame your sexual perferences in a game that could be DLC on the straights that may or may not buy the game...so you really shouldnt just assume that those pesky "straight" gamers wouldnt buy it just for the experience in the game...

A DLC with just allows one of the females and on of the males on board of the normandy to be romanced by both sexes would not sell well, worse than the appearance pack definitely (and considering that it has been months since the release of the first and still there is no announcement for a second it is safe to assume that the appearance pack did not sell well).
Not to mention that such a non free DLC would make pretty much everyone angry (pandering to the gays, retconning of characters, charging for something that should have been in the original game would be the most harmless accusations from various parties) and is nearly a guarantied marketing disaster.
The only way the inclusion of s/s romances in ME2 would work right now is either through a free (optional) DLC, or as part of a bigger DLC that provides additional content and has the s/s Romance only as an extra.

I see you're point here and I agree with it.... somewhat.... A free and optional DLC would be acceptable to reasonable people on both sides as long as it is a completely new  DLC character and not one of the established male squadmates. I just don't see why EA or Bioware would go through all of the time and effort to develop content just to hand it out for free. Bioware has already proven that they are in no way homophobic by having same sex options in various other Bioware games. They have nothing to prove and no real complelling reason to hand out free DLC content.

secondly, the idea that the "gay DLC content" be issued as part of a larger DLC that provides additional content and has the s/s romance only as an extra may not be acceptable to many gamers who are opposed to the s/s content because it would force people to download the "gay" content if they want to get the other extra content like guns or armor etc...

I think the best option would be optional DLC for a new gay character and loyalty mission. I think that the odds of EA or Bioware offering such DLC for free is slim. Would paying for the DLC be an acceptable compromise for those of you who are in support of this type of content?

[ElitePinecone]

Nordic Einar wrote...

Poor sw33t compiled the FAQ for nothing, since nobody apparently reads it >.>

It's unfortunate, because it really does explain things much better, and more concisely, than 2 pages of back-and-forth arguments. 

As for the "Shepard is a defined (usually male, for some reason?) badass soldier who enjoys violence, beer and females of any species..." - I'll repost the response from the FAQ, which is more eloquent than i can hope to be:

" ... most of us have come to the conclusion that it made no sense to have a predefined character for everything BUT sexual orientation for male Shepards.  This would mean playing Mass Effect as anything other than default male "John" Shepard, the neutral/renegade Soldier, would be "wrong" and technically shouldn't be allowed.

Shepard is an N7 Operative and a Spectre. That's all that's set in stone. Everything else - sex, personality, personal history, sexuality - that's up to the player.  "

Not to mention that female Shepards (which, except to chauvinists, is just as representative of 'Shepard' as a character) can already have a relationship with a female human and a monogendered asari (who appears female, but we won't get into that headache-inducing debate here).'Shepard' - as a bare-bones concept, has no pre-defined gender, morality, personality, appearance, military class, background or first name. Why should sexual orientation be any different?

[TaHol]

Nothing can make me understand the claim that Shepard is a pre-defined character. He/she is not. Those who say so, haven't obviously played games where character really is pre-defined. Geralt in The Witcher is pre-defined. He is what Sapkowski made him in his books. He can't be gay, he can't be many other things...'cos Sapkowski told us how he is. Nameless Hero in Gothic-serie is pre-defined...you don't even get to give him a name. And so on.



We can change Shepards gender, looks, name, person...so how he is pre-defined? I believe this as much as asari not being female. Occam´s razor, I say.

[lewis_1306]

What do you guys think of the upcoming Liara DLC for ME2? There are no s/s relationships for maleshep or femshep but technically the Liara/Femshep romance is like a s/s romance. This is good news, right?



The Asari are bisexual (sort of). I think the announcement of the new Liara DLC is great news for people on both sides of this issue.

[Wittand25]

lewis_1306 wrote...
I see you're point here and I agree with it.... somewhat.... A free and optional DLC would be acceptable to reasonable people on both sides as long as it is a completely new  DLC character and not one of the established male squadmates. I just don't see why EA or Bioware would go through all of the time and effort to develop content just to hand it out for free. Bioware has already proven that they are in no way homophobic by having same sex options in various other Bioware games. They have nothing to prove and no real complelling reason to hand out free DLC content.

secondly, the idea that the "gay DLC content" be issued as part of a larger DLC that provides additional content and has the s/s romance only as an extra may not be acceptable to many gamers who are opposed to the s/s content because it would force people to download the "gay" content if they want to get the other extra content like guns or armor etc...

I think the best option would be optional DLC for a new gay character and loyalty mission. I think that the odds of EA or Bioware offering such DLC for free is slim. Would paying for the DLC be an acceptable compromise for those of you who are in support of this type of content?

Free should be a DLC that just unlocks one of the existing LIs for a same sex romance, because it would not be expansive to produce and charging for such a DLC would feel like ripping the players intrested in such content of.
 
A new squadmate with a loyality ( and maybe even a recruitment) mission like Kasumi does not need to be free because the missions and the character  would be content that Bioware can charge money  for,the romance would only be an extra benefit. Developing the character and the missions does cost money after all and I dont want to make unreasonable demands.

[ElitePinecone]

lewis_1306 wrote...

What do you guys think of the upcoming Liara DLC for ME2? There are no s/s relationships for maleshep or femshep but technically the Liara/Femshep romance is like a s/s romance. This is good news, right?

The Asari are bisexual (sort of). I think the announcement of the new Liara DLC is great news for people on both sides of this issue.

While it's nice to see we're getting more time with Liara (as it is she's the only same-sex romance in the game, apart from Kelly); I don't think we'll see much if anything about romance options in this DLC. Bioware has confirmed there will be no more DLC-introduced squadmates, so it's likely this will just be a set of missions. I'm pleased from a gaming perspective, because it does look very interesting. 

[lewis_1306]

Wittand25 wrote...

lewis_1306 wrote...
I see you're point here and I agree with it.... somewhat.... A free and optional DLC would be acceptable to reasonable people on both sides as long as it is a completely new  DLC character and not one of the established male squadmates. I just don't see why EA or Bioware would go through all of the time and effort to develop content just to hand it out for free. Bioware has already proven that they are in no way homophobic by having same sex options in various other Bioware games. They have nothing to prove and no real complelling reason to hand out free DLC content.

secondly, the idea that the "gay DLC content" be issued as part of a larger DLC that provides additional content and has the s/s romance only as an extra may not be acceptable to many gamers who are opposed to the s/s content because it would force people to download the "gay" content if they want to get the other extra content like guns or armor etc...

I think the best option would be optional DLC for a new gay character and loyalty mission. I think that the odds of EA or Bioware offering such DLC for free is slim. Would paying for the DLC be an acceptable compromise for those of you who are in support of this type of content?

Free should be a DLC that just unlocks one of the existing LIs for a same sex romance, because it would not be expansive to produce and charging for such a DLC would feel like ripping the players intrested in such content of.
 
A new squadmate with a loyality ( and maybe even a recruitment) mission like Kasumi does not need to be free because the missions and the character  would be content that Bioware can charge money  for,the romance would only be an extra benefit. Developing the character and the missions does cost money after all and I dont want to make unreasonable demands.

I think that DLC that just unlocks one of the existing LIs for same sex would be a VERY bad idea. Many people people would be opposed to the idea of characters like Garrus or Jacob all of the sudden being gay romance options. charging for "gay DLC" would not be "ripping off" players interested in such content. It's extra content. having people pay for and armor DLC or a character DLC or any DLC that has extra content is not ripping off people interested in the content offered. If people think the content is worth the money then they will buy it. If they don't then they will not. providing DLC is simply offering a product and letting people judge for themselves whether they want it or not.

saying that to charge for s/s romance DLC is somehow ripping off people who are interested in gay content is implying that gay content is "supposed to be" in the game or that Bioware somehow owes s/s romance content to the players or that not including the content was some kind of injustice. That is simply not the case. 

Mass Effect represents the artistic vision of the writers and developers. That  vision is what people pay for. If the artists behind Mass Effect didn't include a s/s romance in the origional game then it's not "missing" its just not included. If they decide to add new content in the form of DLC and they charge for it, it's not
a "rip off" it is an offer of optional premium content.

[Tessara_Riventi]

 Simply put - the code seems to mostly be there, the visuals are certainly there, the recorded VA is there. I would happily and cheerfully pay for a DLC to get this content up and running - not as happy as I would have been if it had been left in the original game, mind you, but still. It's content very, very much worth having, and if DLC is the only way to get it then I'd be happy to shell out for it.

Not doing so seems both wasteful and rather pointless.

[alienatedflea]

LiquidGrape wrote...

alienatedflea, you're not making any sense.
Are we to believe that BioWare carved Shepard's sexuality in stone because, as you so astutely observed; "the reproduce you need a man and a woman..." ?
Not to mention that you contradict yourself in the space of one sentence.

The simple fact is that while there might be no ****** or bisexual alternatives for a Shepard of that inclination to pursue, make no mistake that Shepard can be homosexual.
Half of mine are. Erasmus Shepard, for example. He likes long walks at the beach, shoegaze and has wistful dreams about Wrex during those lonely hours in the night.
Why do I know all this? Because Shepard is up to the individual to mold. I haven't pursued any female love interest with this character, and I do not intend to do so either.
Because he's gay. And no preconceived notion you might have of the abstract Shepard is going to change that.

see your shep is gay bc you want him to be...youre almost living through shep...so you and others in this thread want to be selfish and change the game/character of shepard to fit your life/views...in this story of mass effect, shep is not gay but you and others want him to be...how is that even fair to all the other players that like the game as is? its not fair to be so selfish to include that option through a rewrite in the game or dlc...he is a hero and most of the time heroes are not gay or bisexual...but you and others like yourself want to be selfish and make shep into something he/she will not be...and to say that your experiences of the game say that there could be a possibility of him being gay is only because you want him to be gay...but in the game and even in the options of picking your shep there is not even a hint of homosexuality between war hero, sole survior, and ruthless...so this story does not have shep gay this far along but all the sudden in the last game you want to throw in that into the mix and think everything is going to turn out just fine...yea right...the third one is about fighting the reapers...not going after saren and the geth or the collectors...its going to be tense but you want to have on the side a thing with Thane/garrus/jake/mordin/grunt/donnelly (depending on if youre a guy or not) so its pretty clear to me that is that its too late in the game to have him turn gay to please you and others...but youre hellbent determined to get it in there so it would screw up the consistency of the game...

[ElitePinecone]

I'm trying desperately to remain civil here, but it isn't easy to respond nicely to pages of rambling.

This thread has repeatedly explained and shown that Shepard is not a defined character (in terms of gender or sexuality, or half a dozen other attributes). It has repeatedly explained that same-sex content already exists for a female Shepard; and that nothing in the male Shepard's voice-acting, mannerisms, dialogue or storyline suggests any sort of defined sexuality.

This thread's purpose is not to discuss the sexuality or otherwise of Shepard. It takes it for granted that Shepard is not a defined character, and seeks to discuss implementation of same-sex romances through a range of measures, It is implicitly not a demand, or an order - we aren't being selfish, any more than those who are arguing for more weapons or armour are being selfish.

With respect, your rambling posts are off-topic, distracting from the point of this thread and seem to be resistant to any sort of reasoned insight or any attempt to understand other perspectives. Please read over the last half-dozen pages, consider what's been said and try to restate your argument in something approaching a coherent format that desists in supposing that Shepard is some sort of (male) heterosexual hero. There is little point in posting in this thread with the sorts of arguments you've repeated in the last few pages.

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 23 juillet 2010 - 02:16 .

[brynne]

catabuca wrote...

To clarify, it is not only gay players who want to see same sex options open up for their Shepards; I'm straight, and I've been supporting this since the beginning, and I always will. There are plenty of straight people on this thread and out in the world who don't belong to this forum who support it.
I, too, have various Sheps who are gay, but who have had to remain celibate because the option never arose for them to pursue their interests.
It's a damning indictment of some people's selfishness that they would rather this content not be an option for those who want to play it, even when they would never have to use it themselves. You have your opposite sex relationship content, I would never begrudge you that, even if I never wanted to play it myself. Why not the other way around? So incredibly selfish, and actually really quite sad.

This. All of it but especially the bolded part.

I don't understand people who absolutely refuse having the option of Shepard having a same sex LI just because for whatever reason they don't feel comfortable with the idea (especially when some characters such as Kaidan, Jack... were originally bi. Unless it's all okay when FemShep can romance Liara but MaleShep romancing Kaidan or whoever male is... I guess you know where I'm going with this...).
It doesn't mean you (general you) have to play it that way but it gives other players the option to do so. If you have a straight Shepard and I have a gay Shepard how does that interfere with your game and your Shepard(s)? It doesn't, just like you playing your Shepard male doesn't interfere with my FemShep. Why is that so hard to get?!

[Siansonea]

alienatedflea wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

alienatedflea, you're not making any sense.
Are we to believe that BioWare carved Shepard's sexuality in stone because, as you so astutely observed; "the reproduce you need a man and a woman..." ?
Not to mention that you contradict yourself in the space of one sentence.

The simple fact is that while there might be no ****** or bisexual alternatives for a Shepard of that inclination to pursue, make no mistake that Shepard can be homosexual.
Half of mine are. Erasmus Shepard, for example. He likes long walks at the beach, shoegaze and has wistful dreams about Wrex during those lonely hours in the night.
Why do I know all this? Because Shepard is up to the individual to mold. I haven't pursued any female love interest with this character, and I do not intend to do so either.
Because he's gay. And no preconceived notion you might have of the abstract Shepard is going to change that.

see your shep is gay bc you want him to be...youre almost living through shep...so you and others in this thread want to be selfish and change the game/character of shepard to fit your life/views...in this story of mass effect, shep is not gay but you and others want him to be...how is that even fair to all the other players that like the game as is? its not fair to be so selfish to include that option through a rewrite in the game or dlc...he is a hero and most of the time heroes are not gay or bisexual...but you and others like yourself want to be selfish and make shep into something he/she will not be...and to say that your experiences of the game say that there could be a possibility of him being gay is only because you want him to be gay...but in the game and even in the options of picking your shep there is not even a hint of homosexuality between war hero, sole survior, and ruthless...so this story does not have shep gay this far along but all the sudden in the last game you want to throw in that into the mix and think everything is going to turn out just fine...yea right...the third one is about fighting the reapers...not going after saren and the geth or the collectors...its going to be tense but you want to have on the side a thing with Thane/garrus/jake/mordin/grunt/donnelly (depending on if youre a guy or not) so its pretty clear to me that is that its too late in the game to have him turn gay to please you and others...but youre hellbent determined to get it in there so it would screw up the consistency of the game...

William Faulkner called, and he wants his writing style back. Talk about sound and fury.

Seriously, I can't even read this. Ellipses are not supposed to be used this way. It's punctuation abuse.

[shinyblacklatexkitty]

My shepherd in Mass Effect 1 was in effect gay as she only had a relationship with Liara (would be bi but kaidan, ugh?), so I don't see why having relationships available in 2 would break continuity in any way.

I'm really stunned at how they actually regressed from having one serious non-heterosexual relationship available to 0, yet at the same time adding more overall, you used to have 1 or 2 options now you have 3 - but they are all unavailable unless your Shepherd is straight. It really is BS. The "other interests" are just tokens, flirting and a "dance" - not any kind of relationship. That tiny option was just thrown in to appear unbiased while blatantly shunning bi/lesbian players by removing any option to have a "paramour" in Mass Effect 2.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/2883314/38#3206285



...story-wise I will never take it seriously that Jack and Miranda are supposedly straight as an arrow It's obviously the same thing as when they removed Ashley, just cowardly and very disappointing...

Modifié par shinyblacklatexkitty, 23 juillet 2010 - 04:57 .

[Siansonea]

I really think this thread would be better served if we focus on what we want, rather than berating BioWare for what is essentially a fait accompli. No use cryin' over spilt milk, you know. ME2 is a done deal, so what do you want to see in ME3 and intervening DLC?

[Wittand25]

Siansonea II wrote...

I really think this thread would be better served if we focus on what we want, rather than berating BioWare for what is essentially a fait accompli. No use cryin' over spilt milk, you know. ME2 is a done deal, so what do you want to see in ME3 and intervening DLC?

DLC (or expansion packs) for ME2: A way to earn the paramour achievement by romancing a male NPC with a male Shepard not necessarily with a squad-mate, a NPC that either is a crew-member on the Normandy or stationed on some planet would be equally ok. I am not talking about a consort like one night stand here, more like a romance that needs several conversations before it culminates in a romance scene (For the flight through the omega relay they could use the faithful-to-ME1-lover scene and just replace the picture with the picture of the NPC). A fully developed squad-mate would be better, but I know that getting one of those is far less likely.

ME3: A fully developed m/m romance that does not feel second place to the already existing or new straight romances. If there is a ME2-DLC regarding m/m it should of course carry over.

Oh and of course even I would most likely not use it the same should apply for f/f romances

Modifié par Wittand25, 23 juillet 2010 - 05:40 .

[shinyblacklatexkitty]

did some more research on this, talked to some people, and amongst other things I just read this, the comments are a nice show of the potential interest you are putting off by doing these kind of things, Bioware:

afterellen.com/blog/d-word/weekly-geek-flirting-with-girls-in-mass-effect-2#comment-1204488

BTW, they recorded lesbian romance lines with every female crew member (small sample: ).


As someone said on Bioware forum:


Someone involved in the production of ME2(...) informed me that it was the decision of someone high-up the chain of
command within ME2, and that a lot of the ME2 team fought hard to keep
the same-sex content in the game - unfortunately they lost.


It may or may not be true, but Bioware mods were closing threads about
gay romances with every trivial and stupid excuse (that changed when
articles about that started showing), and gay romance lines ARE
recorded.


About that someone high-up the chain of
command within ME2, read interview with Casey Hudson, executive producer of ME2:
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2010/04/bioware-explains-why-theres-no-homosexu...
So we have answer. There are no homosexual romances in ME2, because it wouldn't be innocent and fun.


It makes sense why obviously bisexual Jack goes only for male character -
healthy heterosexual relationship (or healthy heterosexual casual sex,
if we play as renegade) with manly Shepard will cure her.


BTW, same guy (Casey Hudson) said romance with Liara was absolutely not
lesbian at all, because she's not female. Add to that what they did with
Jacob and female Shepard (that sultry voice without any intention of
player) and we see that they want to straighten up female Shepard. Oh,
and about Kelly, Hudson said it was only easter egg, so they don't take
it seriously.

Via google:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/1438064/189#2077209
Read that page and the page after ^^

Along with the video proof of the removed scenes from before, those comments seem to about sum it up... there we go on why there non-heterosexual relationships were removed from ME2, it's not "PG-13" while dry humping apparently is... Also what is it with trying to do everything at once, you can't make a mature game while trying to be suitable for 13 year olds or whatever, it's contradictory, I guess that is why there's no blood when you shoot people either. Or why "sex" is so ridiculously cartoony, I'd prefer to have it cut from the camera rather than humping with clothes on that's so patently ridiculous to anyone who has any idea what sex actually is. When is the games industry going to grow up and act like the film industry does and not be so scared of controversy? You don't NEED to try sell games to 13 year olds...

Modifié par shinyblacklatexkitty, 23 juillet 2010 - 06:10 .

[Siansonea]

Shinyblacklatexkitty (great name, btw), we all feel your pain, we've been rehashing these issues for months now. But can we move on? Scolding BioWare for their past actions accomplishes nothing.

If we don't move on, we can kiss this thread goodbye.

[Wittand25]

I agree with Siansonea II, These articles and posts have been brought up in the past, and beeing angry about them here on the public forum now is not going to help our cause.But feel free to join the group in my signature, it provides a safe place to vent the steam and allows to come back here to this thread and try to give constructive input on the topic

[Ziggy]

I think the dialogue wheel with symbols to denote tone (such as "Intimidate" or "Flirt" or "Combat") that they're using in DA2 is very good news in the sense that it would stop anyone accidentally romancing someone they didn't mean to and so take away one of the big issues people against the inclusion of ss romance have.

I'm quite optimistic about it actually - it's one less obstacle in the way...

edit: if the ME crowd implement it too that is

Modifié par Em23, 24 juillet 2010 - 03:05 .

[ElitePinecone]

Em23 wrote...

I think the dialogue wheel with symbols to denote tone (such as "Intimidate" or "Flirt" or "Combat") that they're using in DA2 is very good news in the sense that it would stop anyone accidentally romancing someone they didn't mean to and so take away one of the big issues people against the inclusion of ss romance have.

I'm quite optimistic about it actually - it's one less obstacle in the way...

edit: if the ME crowd implement it too that is

I agree, it's even more versatile (and user-friendly) than coloured text, because it can be used to represent a variety of intentions (as you said, flirt, intimidate, combat etc). It brings a level of depth but also ease of use to the dialogue wheel, something that I think was an area that could've been improved. It's extremely difficult to gauge intentions with written text - sarcasm and romance included. 

Here's hoping it's intended for use in ME3.