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Fight for the Love *Achievement Unlocked*


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#951
shinyblacklatexkitty

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Sian, sorry I'm new I haven't played through Mass Effect 2 yet only 1, I finally got round to buying it and well some stuff just pisses me off.

I actually just came here to post again. Because OMG. I read that people were worried about accidentally walking into chatting up same sex characters, well what about this. I'm pissed off. My female Shepherd just finished first mission on Omega with the plague, I talk to Jacob, I'm curious about finding more about the character and maybe eking out some more information about Cerebrus, and when I say I just want to talk, Bioware forces her to talk in a sultry tone of voice all of a sudden that sounds like she wants to screw him all "get to know you betterrrr"-like with no warning before selecting the option whatsoever!

And then of course you have to continue the conversation, there's no bye option. I pick the neutral sounding ones desperately trying to escape being railroaded and when he talks about the recruitment ads and them changing her face and that she's a perfect example of humanity, I reply You think I'm perfect? and says something completely different: "You like what you saw?" and leaning back... WTF GRR... "I don't want this to get weird commander" NEITHER DID I?!??!?! Why can I not simply show concern for my crew like a good CO rather than randomly acting so incredibly inappropriately??? I wouldn't have a problem with it if the options actually reflected what you are about to say or the tone of voice, so there was an actual CHOICE, but they don't...

Modifié par shinyblacklatexkitty, 24 juillet 2010 - 12:30 .


#952
ElitePinecone

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shinyblacklatexkitty wrote...
I wouldn't have a problem with it if the options actually reflected what you are about to say or the tone of voice, so there was an actual CHOICE, but they don't...


Hopefully, more intuitive and simpler dialogue wheels, akin to the one being developed for Dragon Age II, will help this problem. 

One of the biggest issues people (I'm talking forum-goers in general) seem to have with the potential introduction of same-sex romances (aside from outright hostility) is that they wouldn't want to be confronted with gay (yet oddly, hardly ever lesbian) content all of a sudden. This isn't such an unreasonable request - as your post above shows, FemShep practically leaping on Jacob and tearing his clothes off after their first conversation is also an annoying moment for many people. A clearer, less ambiguous dialogue system would help a lot to minimise confusion over romances and make it absolutely clear to players what constitutes flirting and what constitutes ordinary conversation. 

I'm not implying this is a clear carte blanche for same-sex romances to be introduced. But it does remove a significant - and somewhat valid - complaint that many have: that under the current dialogue system, it's difficult to distinguish when a line is casual banter and when it becomes an 'official' romance entry point. It's certainly an encouraging move, even from the point of clearly delineating romance from other dialogue, and even if its only accomplishment is to make the system of character interaction easier. 

#953
Wittand25

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Well it seems that at least the lack of f/f romance will be addressed in the coming DLC. I can only hope that something for those wanting m/m will be done before ME3, but I am feeling pretty pessimistic right now.

#954
akkaze

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Just registering my support for more open romance options. There's no reason to artificially arbitrarily limit or domain one aspect of the main character when we can customize just about everything else. I think it's a trivial matter to write the dialogue in such a way that people who have a serious issue with same-sex sexualities don't have to confront it in the game unless they want to. It's a red herring.



I also agree strongly with people who have noted that the way the conversation wheel works, the player can't always roleplay romance subplots with satisfactory subtlety.



I'd also like to signal appreciation for the thoughtfulness and insight of so many of the posts in this thread. All very interesting to read.



Fingers crossed for the remaining DLC and ME3.

#955
smecky-kitteh

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Do you plan on turning everyone gay?

No, most of us would like the former bisexual squadmates to be reimplemented, this includes, Tali, Thane, Jack and Kaidan. (someone correct me on that if I'm wrong) We also wouldn't mind a BRAND NEW character. Please share your thoughts in the poll or topic if you have any ideas for people.



has someone actaulaay asked that question?

and I could of sworn you could romance tali on my first femshep playthrough because you can flirt with her.

#956
Syledir

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Siansonea II wrote...

I really think this thread would be better served if we focus on what we want, rather than berating BioWare for what is essentially a fait accompli. No use cryin' over spilt milk, you know. ME2 is a done deal, so what do you want to see in ME3 and intervening DLC?

Well, the new dialogue system of Dragon Age 2 sounds promising. If it works as well as it sound, BioWare is more than welcome to insert it in Mass Effect 3.

I still believe that BioWare should make every romanceable NPC optional for either maleshep or femshep. Most of them were originally planned to be optional for both genders anyway. Doing that would insure that noone would feel left out.

As far as I remember, there have been two different arguments about this. The first one was that making every romanceable NPC bisexual would be unrealistic and would lessen the NPCs personality. Still, when faced with the fact, that neither of the six romanceable NPCs are interested in a s/s relationship is a credible scenario, they suddenly their point of views turn 180. They say I have reality every day, it's a game for crying out loud. A Fantasy. It doesn't have to be a real life simulation. It doesn't have to be realistic. Changing the sexual preference of a NPC wouldn't change his/her personality. For example: A lesbian Ashley would still love poetry, would still love her family, would still be wary of aliens. Only thing that would change is who she shares her bed with.
There are different solutions to this.

Here a few examples:
A: The NPC Sky from Jade Empire was quite easy to romance as a female. Yet it was quite hard as a male. Hard but not impossible. That would make Sky bisexuall but with a strong preference for women. Something similar is possible for Mass Effect.
B: The NPC Juhani from Knights of the old Republic was only romanceable as a female. Still there was no kiss or sex. Only a platonic scene were Juhani and Revan admit their love for each other. Platonic but fullfilling.

The second argument was that changing the sexuality of a NPC would damage the continuity. Honestly, how many TV-Series do you know were two lovers became an item after let's say 5 seasons, despite the fact that they were attracted to each other from the very beginning? For reasons like they didn't want to jeopordize their friendship, one of them was in a relationship already, they feared that they couldn't separate their private and professional life, blablabla. Let's say that John Shepard felt a connection between him and Kaidan but didn't pursue a relationship because fraternization was forbidden, he didn't want to any distractions from the mission and/or Kaidan is a guy. The impact of being literally dead for two years and having survived a suicide mission might force John to revalute his feelings. He might decide to do nothing. Still, he might come to the conclusion that life is too short, and decides to pursue Kaidan romantically, consequences be damned. Might be the best decision in his life.

And last but not least. I'd like the option to play cupid between two romanceable NPCs. Imagine Shepard and Tali are an item. That means 5 potential romantic partners are left single. On the brink of a Reaper invasion, I believe not only Shepard would try to find closure, just in case. Maybe Jacob and Miranda try to rekindle their relationship. Or Miranda and Jack decide to confront each other. (everyone who likes the idea of Miranda and Jack check out Metal Dragon Kiryus Clearly a Mistake on fanfiction.net) Depending on Shepards actions it ends in a catastrophe or a match made in hell.

One last thing. Don't know about you but lovers usually don't call each other by their surname. It irks me a little every time when the romantic partner of Shepard calls him/her Shepard. I know the first name is out, but aren't there petnames in the future anymore. A simple "hey handsome" or "hey beautifull" would do the trick.

#957
DarthRevan4life

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I would like to respectfully not support a m/m or f/f relationship for Shep.  I am in no way against same sex relationships in the real world but for this particular game I am fully against it.   Now before I get singled out as a "homophobe" or whater hear me out.

1. Mass Effect is a story about Shepard, not necessarily the universe.  Bioware has already indicated that they had a set story behind Shepard and due to this, he/she is straight. 

2. Shepard in ME1 & ME2 was straight and had no homosexual inclination so why all of a sudden include them in ME3 or through some sort of DLC?

3. Shepard is in the military, not saying there are no people of that persuation in the military but being that I have served I never had met one or known one that was open about it and I don't see it happening in the game as well.

4. I think there's a level of a certain machismo to Shepard and before anyone states that Shepard could be female in the game, let's not forget when Bioware advertises the game, Shepard is male so my opinion is based off of that.  I believe the fans who would like same sex romances are very deeply in the minority in this and as a business I see Bioware going with the bigger demographic.

Again these are just my own opinions and I tried to remain respectful as possible.  If it were to be implemented in the game I wouldn't be against it...however if my character suddenly shows a hint at wanting to be with a member of the same sex being that I am personally not for it, than I would be annoyed.  Given the dialogue wheel if I can avoid some dialogue that would open the door than sure that works for me.  Just my two cents.

#958
MobiusTyr

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Same-Sex is gay and I will never buy ME3 if it has gay sex. I don't want to be known as a ****got among the casual fans(the main base driving the bus)

#959
ScotGaymer

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DarthRevan4life wrote...

I would like to respectfully not support a m/m or f/f relationship for Shep.  I am in no way against same sex relationships in the real world but for this particular game I am fully against it.   Now before I get singled out as a "homophobe" or whater hear me out.

1. Mass Effect is a story about Shepard, not necessarily the universe.  Bioware has already indicated that they had a set story behind Shepard and due to this, he/she is straight. 

2. Shepard in ME1 & ME2 was straight and had no homosexual inclination so why all of a sudden include them in ME3 or through some sort of DLC?

3. Shepard is in the military, not saying there are no people of that persuation in the military but being that I have served I never had met one or known one that was open about it and I don't see it happening in the game as well.

4. I think there's a level of a certain machismo to Shepard and before anyone states that Shepard could be female in the game, let's not forget when Bioware advertises the game, Shepard is male so my opinion is based off of that.  I believe the fans who would like same sex romances are very deeply in the minority in this and as a business I see Bioware going with the bigger demographic.

Again these are just my own opinions and I tried to remain respectful as possible.  If it were to be implemented in the game I wouldn't be against it...however if my character suddenly shows a hint at wanting to be with a member of the same sex being that I am personally not for it, than I would be annoyed.  Given the dialogue wheel if I can avoid some dialogue that would open the door than sure that works for me.  Just my two cents.



See you are quite wrong there.

Firstly Kaidan flirts with MaleShep like effing mad throughout ME 1 and MaleShep can flirt right back - i was actually really dissapointed when i realised that I couldnt actually "go all the way" with him.
And FemShep could be a lesbian in ME1 and ME2.

ME1 you had Liara who was part of the MONO GENDERED NOT ASEXUAL species the ALL FEMALE asari. And okay so her screwing about with FemShep doesnt make her a lesbian or bisexual but it DOES make femshep able to be a lesbian or bisexual.
Secondly it was originally designed for both Kaidan and Ashley to be bisexual and they pulled it at the last minute - the proof of this is in the fact that both romances were in and nearly completely implemented right up until the sex scene which is almost right at the end of the game.

ME2 femshep can romance Yeoman Chambers. Affirming femsheps lesbian/bisexual status and making Yeoman Chambers bisexual.

And the whole "Shepard it too macho to be gay" arguement - speaking as an out and proud gay gamer - I find that insulting and no small part homophobic. And if you actually know and are friends with any gays in real life I would be massively surprised.
Gay people can be just as macho and butch as your most macho and butch straight man. And the forces have a history of homosexual/homoerotic stuff going on. Many many people in the forces are gay/bisexual. So to say a maleshep wouldnt be gay cos he is in the forces is ridiculous and not supported by real life fact.

Some of the most macho guys I know are gay. And frankly I know quite a few really quite "gay looking/acting" straight guys as well.
You can not generalise in that sort of manner.

The point we are making is Bioware is sending the message that its okay to be a lesbian, or that they included lesbian relations to get the sad preteen boy crowd off and were too afraid to include male/male for fear of offendind them; and are saying its not okay to be a gay man. At least thats how it felt to me.
And I felt validated in that view when Ray Muzuka made his bullcrap "shepard is a predefined character" excuse for not including m/m romances into the ME games which is contradicted by ALL other evidence in the games.

MobiusTyr wrote...

Same-Sex is gay and I will never buy
ME3 if it has gay sex. I don't want to be known as a ****got among the
casual fans(the main base driving the bus)



Congrats.

How does it feel to show the world how much of a small minded bigot you are?

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 24 juillet 2010 - 08:04 .


#960
Capn47

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I remember back before the first game came out, this topic was quite common and always getting shut down by bioware due to the heated fighting going on. Back then I had just finally gotten around to playing Jade Empire and was very confident that bioware was going to give us the gay option in mass effect.



After the first game came out, and m/m wasn't in the game (f/f was, but noone on his planet doesn't like when two sexy f's start /'ing(obviously an exaggeration but you know what i mean)) the official response was that they didn't believe that it fit the Shep persona, or that they didn't want to just tack it on and make it feel false or cheap.



Then game two came out, and this time they knew from the beginning that people wanted it in there.. so any sort of tacking it on excuse doesnt work... they had just as much time to make that happen, as any other relationship in the game. But it wasn't in there.



The idea that it doesn't fit with biowares persona of Shep doesn't go over with me... We can make choices to murder unarmed people, punch news women(twice), or we can let these people go, not punch her... save the council, not save the council... any number of choices... ultimately the persona that matters is the one we give him, as we are the players.



I don't think bioware is going to do the gay thing... Mass Effect is too main stream and ultimately the main stream still isn't comfortable with homosexuality... Bioware is my favorite game company and it dissapoints me that they don't do it...but I just don't think they will.

#961
ScotGaymer

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It isnt even about homosexuality for most of us.



Its about consistency; and to be honest in Britain it would be seen as a form of discrimination. And they could possibly get into trouble over it. At least they could if they were based/registered in the UK. But they arent.



They have Gay relations in Jade Empire (F/f and m/m), they have gay relations in Dragon Age (both sexes again), the suddenly ME the only gay relations in it are f/f. Why? To cater to a bunch of console jarheads that probably wouldnt by the game anyway because its too wordy and intellectual for them?

Hello? Earth to Bioware? Does that make any sense?



No it doesnt.



You either include it all or you include none as far as I am concerned. You dont half-ass it.



In this day and age there is absolutely no legitimate or reasonable reason to not include a mixture of creeds, colours, and sexualities into games (and indeed other mediums like movies and books). If romance/relationships is important to the game and to character development (which it isnt always and doesnt need to be) then you should go the whole way.

Not do half the job and the wimp at the last minute and hide from it.



And for what? To satisfy a bunch of close minded neanderthals who probably wouldnt buy the game anyway because guess what? Its a dorky science fiction game.

No matter how you dress it up for a lot of people its always going to be a geeky sad sci fi game as far as these types of folks are concerned. These people are probably going to be the CoD crowd that Bioware was so desperate to woo with ME2.



So why then is Bioware putting so much effort into tip toeing around them? I dont get it. Why do they care?

#962
ElitePinecone

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DarthRevan4life wrote...

I would like to respectfully not support a m/m or f/f relationship for Shep.  I am in no way against same sex relationships in the real world but for this particular game I am fully against it.   Now before I get singled out as a "homophobe" or whater hear me out.

*snipped for length*


I'd like to reply to your points in order - but you do raise interesting objections.

1. Bioware has explained - badly - that Shepard is some sort of a defined character. This is nonsense - public relations/marketing fluff that came out of nowhere when some Bioware executives were confronted with an interview question they hadn't prepared for. Your suggestion that Shepard is straight also makes me wonder: what the heck was Shepard's relationship with Liara or Kelly Chambers?

2. We could equally argue that Shepard was gay/lesbian in ME/ME2 (if people played him/her that way), so why include heterosexual romances in ME3? Opportunities for love interests don't define sexuality. Further, there was no suggestion of Shepard's sexuality in either ME or ME2 - no dialogue, mannerisms, anything, unless the player chose to pursue a romance. If you look at some of the videos at the start of this thread, you'll see a clip of male Shepard (cut from Mass Effect) saying to Liara (as an optional dialogue, obviously): "I'm only interested in men". That's a fairly decisive comment, wouldn't you think?

3. I assume you're talking about the American military? The situation is rather different in other parts of the world - and presumably even more so in the time period we're talking about. In other Mass Effect-related media (the novels, for example) we've seen a gay security officer take down a squad of soldiers single-handedly (see Mass Effect: Ascension novel). Applying current standards to 180 years into the future (in a fictional universe) is an exercise in futility. 

4. Your suggestion that a male Shepard is somehow more valid than the female character because Bioware uses it in advertising is, to put it bluntly, wrong. Shepard has no defined gender. Full stop. As previously mentioned, there are macho heterosexual people and macho homosexual people. It's called human nature, and suggesting something different without proof is stereotyping at best. 

#963
DarthRevan4life

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ElitePinecone wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

I would like to respectfully not support a m/m or f/f relationship for Shep.  I am in no way against same sex relationships in the real world but for this particular game I am fully against it.   Now before I get singled out as a "homophobe" or whater hear me out.

*snipped for length*


I'd like to reply to your points in order - but you do raise interesting objections.

1. Bioware has explained - badly - that Shepard is some sort of a defined character. This is nonsense - public relations/marketing fluff that came out of nowhere when some Bioware executives were confronted with an interview question they hadn't prepared for. Your suggestion that Shepard is straight also makes me wonder: what the heck was Shepard's relationship with Liara or Kelly Chambers?

2. We could equally argue that Shepard was gay/lesbian in ME/ME2 (if people played him/her that way), so why include heterosexual romances in ME3? Opportunities for love interests don't define sexuality. Further, there was no suggestion of Shepard's sexuality in either ME or ME2 - no dialogue, mannerisms, anything, unless the player chose to pursue a romance. If you look at some of the videos at the start of this thread, you'll see a clip of male Shepard (cut from Mass Effect) saying to Liara (as an optional dialogue, obviously): "I'm only interested in men". That's a fairly decisive comment, wouldn't you think?

3. I assume you're talking about the American military? The situation is rather different in other parts of the world - and presumably even more so in the time period we're talking about. In other Mass Effect-related media (the novels, for example) we've seen a gay security officer take down a squad of soldiers single-handedly (see Mass Effect: Ascension novel). Applying current standards to 180 years into the future (in a fictional universe) is an exercise in futility. 

4. Your suggestion that a male Shepard is somehow more valid than the female character because Bioware uses it in advertising is, to put it bluntly, wrong. Shepard has no defined gender. Full stop. As previously mentioned, there are macho heterosexual people and macho homosexual people. It's called human nature, and suggesting something different without proof is stereotyping at best. 


Thanks for being civil with your arguments. 

1. I don't think people bringing up Liara is a valid point in any way as to relations of same sex relationships.  Yes you could be with Liara if your Shepard was female however due to Asari phyisiology their race doesn't have genders, it's one gender if the word "gender" can really be used to describe an Asari.  To say Liara is a lesbian would be incorrect as due to their culture I don't believe that would would exist as it's a word referenced to a race with multiple genders.  As for Kelly, you got me there.

2.  As for your point with the cut scene where Shepard states that line where "he's only interested in men" isn't valid as it was cut from the game, assuming for a reason.  Let's not forget that regardless of how Bioware's PR team handled an interview where they were question on why there were no gay/lesbian relationships it's still the point where Shepard him/herself couldn't sleep with a member of the same gender (Liara not withstanding but I point to my argument above).

3.  I was referring to the American military and my bad if I didn't specify such.  As for the novels I have read them all and I was saying, I have nothing against homosexuality being included in the Mass Effect universe as it would be incredibly ignorant of me to say it wouldn't happen.  As for Kaiden flirting with male Shepard I don't remember that at all, could be I just didn't notice but if you could point out an example I would appreciate it and would pull my argument on this given some proof.

4.  To say there is no set gender in Mass Effect is I'm sorry, wrong in every regard.  Tell me something, when the first trailer for Mass Effect came out...what gender was Shepard?  In all previews of the game, boxart, trailers, Commander Shepard is male.  This isn't a coincidence and in no way does that mean a female Shepard is less important.  In my opinion a female Shepard was included as an option for other players but not a necessity.  Plus I believe the canon of Mass Effect, Shepard is male.

#964
Temper_Graniteskul

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FitScotGaymer wrote...


The point we are making is Bioware is sending the message that its okay to be a lesbian, or that they included lesbian relations to get the sad preteen boy crowd off and were too afraid to include male/male for fear of offendind them; and are saying its not okay to be a gay man. At least thats how it felt to me.
And I felt validated in that view when Ray Muzuka made his bullcrap "shepard is a predefined character" excuse for not including m/m romances into the ME games which is contradicted by ALL other evidence in the games.

Oh so much this. The message is very much that it's okay to show lesbians because that's what straight men are interested in seeing, and okay to exclude gay male characters because some men find that icky. Never mind what gay men or women, bisexuals, or straights that enjoy running gay/bi characters might be interested in. Looking at the romances in ME2 overall, I'd argue that they included very little that was meant to cater to anyone that wasn't a straight cis male, and that includes Garrus and Jacob. Not to mention the problematic fact that of the four women (default) on board, not one is distinterested in MShep: Jack, Miranda, Tali, and even Samara...three unqualified "I'd do you's" and one "I'd do you if I was younger." Frankly, I think a case could be made that the writers are the ones not respecting NPC characterization, as opposed to those who'd like to see s/s romances with existing LIs.

The whole thing is very straight male-gazey, which is just a ****** off because it's not like there isn't market demographic research out there to support the idea that people who aren't straight, cis males play these kinds of action/RPG games too. It's not unreasonable to include things that they might enjoy seeing, honest. Hell, I'm still not sure what other women gamers find agreeable about Thane, but whatever - his presence doesn't make me sick, nor does his inclusion as a straight LI for FemShep somehow thwart my Shepards' extra-mission romantic pursuits.

One a more positive note, perhaps the wheel-with-icon option will make conversation tells more clear than the snippet text currently does. Goodness knows the delivered dialogue sometimes comes with ninja innuendo or tone, romance or not (and FU "Paragon" interrupt at the bar on Omega). I don't know. ME2 seemed to be a lot closer to what Myzuka was talking about when he blathered on about 'predefined character,' so maybe they really did want to tell the story of a badass uberbutch manly straight space marine from the get-go, but people like all that touchy-feely crap about picking their own sex, ethnicity, morality, and romances (horror!) so they included them as a knee-jerk reaction but have been trying to claw them back ever since. The more I think about it, the more it seems like every response from them, including the content they've put out over the last couple of years, is 'goddamn this diversity thing is hard, can we just go back to telling stories for straight white guys who like to fight crap?' But my cynicism threat level is orange today, so...yeah.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 25 juillet 2010 - 03:29 .


#965
Falcon509

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So... The basic idea behind all this is that there are people who want homosexual relationships available in the game?



Here's my two cents since everyone else is chipping in:



First of all, I'm straight. Homosexuality doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever and quite honestly, I don't think it will at any point. Now before anyone jumps on me (no pun intended) over this, I don't see any harm in introducing same-sex relationships into the Mass Effect universe. Now if there were same-sex options in the game, that doesn't mean the player would be forced to pursue it. One could go the entire game without romantic involvement and it really isn't that hard to do so (although it would be difficult for someone like me to not hit on Miranda). Also, I highly doubt that Bioware would avoid creating any same-sex romantic plots due to the protests of a minority group of rabid homophobes... On that note however, it seems that Bioware would do just fine financially if they didn't include homosexuality at all in their games as well.



I suppose my only question is where do you draw the line on romance plots? It seems that one would need to be consistent in the design of those subplots. Currently a player can create a lesbian or xenophilic Shepard (even both) so where's the line? Where does beastiality and xenophilia diverge even? What makes a lesbian Shepard ok and a gay male Shepard not ok?



Simply put, I am not gay, I don't understand homosexuality, I have no desire to have a homosexual savior of the galaxy myself (although it would be humorous to have an extremely flamboyant Shepard defeat the Reapers), but in the end, I have no problem with the game providing that option.



You won't see me actively petitioning for it though. Sorry folks. Good luck.

#966
Temper_Graniteskul

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DarthRevan4life wrote...

1. I don't think people bringing up Liara is a valid point in any way as to relations of same sex relationships.  Yes you could be with Liara if your Shepard was female however due to Asari phyisiology their race doesn't have genders, it's one gender if the word "gender" can really be used to describe an Asari.  To say Liara is a lesbian would be incorrect as due to their culture I don't believe that would would exist as it's a word referenced to a race with multiple genders.  As for Kelly, you got me there.

Why is this so hard for people to grasp? Asari are physiologically female - their sex is female. ME, like so much of culture, uses the term 'gender' in place of sex; Asari are monogendered, they have one gender and that's female. Their entire culture is ruled by matriarchs, a gendered status in and of itself.

FemShep is, herself, female. That makes any sexual/romantic relationship that FemShep has with Liara a lesbian one, and FemShep can be properly labelled as lesbian (or actively bisexual, depending on how romancing other LIs went in ME2). Liara might be more properly determined to be omnisexual (the Asari can apparently have mind-meld sex with anything), but she's a she in a relationship with another she - and that's same-sex. Period.

The handwaving that BioWare tried to do with the Asari backstory is just Discount Lesbians at work. ME's even got their own little section there - so, spoiler alert, anyone who clicks through and looks to the Video Game examples of the trope.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 25 juillet 2010 - 03:47 .


#967
DarthRevan4life

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Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

1. I don't think people bringing up Liara is a valid point in any way as to relations of same sex relationships.  Yes you could be with Liara if your Shepard was female however due to Asari phyisiology their race doesn't have genders, it's one gender if the word "gender" can really be used to describe an Asari.  To say Liara is a lesbian would be incorrect as due to their culture I don't believe that would would exist as it's a word referenced to a race with multiple genders.  As for Kelly, you got me there.

Why is this so hard for people to grasp? Asari are physiologically female - their sex is female. ME, like so much of culture, uses the term 'gender' in place of sex; Asari are monogendered, they have one gender and that's female. Their entire culture is ruled by matriarchs, a gendered status in and of itself.

FemShep is, herself, female. That makes any sexual/romantic relationship that FemShep has with Liara a lesbian one, and FemShep can be properly labelled as lesbian (or actively bisexual, depending on how romancing other LIs went in ME2). Liara might be more properly determined to be omnisexual (the Asari can apparently have mind-meld sex with anything), but she's a she in a relationship with another she - and that's same-sex. Period.

The handwaving that BioWare tried to do with the Asari backstory is just Discount Lesbians at work. ME's even got their own little section there - so, spoiler alert, anyone who clicks through and looks to the Video Game examples of the trope.


I want to throw this argument out the window, an Asari can sleep with another Asari and reproduce correct?  Alright and from what I know of females of the human race if they sleep together can't reproduce, correct?  So you're attempt to throw the Asari as "female" is invalid.  If we want to see an alien race who appears female and classify them as such is ignorant.  Do you honestly believe if a race is omnisexual they would have came up with the word "lesbian"?  No of course they wouldn't because that's a word the human race came up with when two females sleep with one another.  Using our own set of definitions on a race that we truly know nothing about (even though it's a game) is just irresponsible. 

#968
Nordic Einar

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3. Shepard is in the military, not saying there are no people of that persuation in the military but being that I have served I never had met one or known one that was open about it and I don't see it happening in the game as well.


Of course you don't know any openly gay soldiers in the US Military - they get kicked out w/o pension  if they even talk about their long-term partners.

#969
Nordic Einar

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DarthRevan4life wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

1. I don't think people bringing up Liara is a valid point in any way as to relations of same sex relationships.  Yes you could be with Liara if your Shepard was female however due to Asari phyisiology their race doesn't have genders, it's one gender if the word "gender" can really be used to describe an Asari.  To say Liara is a lesbian would be incorrect as due to their culture I don't believe that would would exist as it's a word referenced to a race with multiple genders.  As for Kelly, you got me there.

Why is this so hard for people to grasp? Asari are physiologically female - their sex is female. ME, like so much of culture, uses the term 'gender' in place of sex; Asari are monogendered, they have one gender and that's female. Their entire culture is ruled by matriarchs, a gendered status in and of itself.

FemShep is, herself, female. That makes any sexual/romantic relationship that FemShep has with Liara a lesbian one, and FemShep can be properly labelled as lesbian (or actively bisexual, depending on how romancing other LIs went in ME2). Liara might be more properly determined to be omnisexual (the Asari can apparently have mind-meld sex with anything), but she's a she in a relationship with another she - and that's same-sex. Period.

The handwaving that BioWare tried to do with the Asari backstory is just Discount Lesbians at work. ME's even got their own little section there - so, spoiler alert, anyone who clicks through and looks to the Video Game examples of the trope.


I want to throw this argument out the window, an Asari can sleep with another Asari and reproduce correct?  Alright and from what I know of females of the human race if they sleep together can't reproduce, correct?  So you're attempt to throw the Asari as "female" is invalid.  If we want to see an alien race who appears female and classify them as such is ignorant.  Do you honestly believe if a race is omnisexual they would have came up with the word "lesbian"?  No of course they wouldn't because that's a word the human race came up with when two females sleep with one another.  Using our own set of definitions on a race that we truly know nothing about (even though it's a game) is just irresponsible. 


Explain to me how a heterosexual woman would find an Asari attractive, please.

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Falcon509

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@DarthRevan4Life



You do realize that even throwing the Liara example out the window, a female Shepard can have a homosexual relationship with Kelly Chambers right?

#971
DarthRevan4life

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Falcon509 wrote...

@DarthRevan4Life

You do realize that even throwing the Liara example out the window, a female Shepard can have a homosexual relationship with Kelly Chambers right?


That would be an interesting point, but to be fair all that you see that happens between Kelly and Shepard is a dance scene. Now some may point out that a female watching a female strip dance may make either of them a lesbian, but I have been and taken many of my straight female friends to strips clubs and while my friends enjoy the dances and the flirtation involved my friends are still straight and would not have sex with another woman.

As to the person who asked how a human female would find an Asari attractive the answer is quite simple.  I want to point out what happened on Illium when three males were watching an Asari dance and each one said how the Asari looked like their own gender.  So who really knows what an Asari truly looks like and they could use some form of mind control to other races where they see a "female" that closely resembles their own gender.  I would also like to point out that many of my female friends and most women in general regardles of sexual preference would state that they find women more attractive then men.

#972
Falcon509

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DarthRevan4life wrote...

Falcon509 wrote...

@DarthRevan4Life

You do realize that even throwing the Liara example out the window, a female Shepard can have a homosexual relationship with Kelly Chambers right?


That would be an interesting point, but to be fair all that you see that happens between Kelly and Shepard is a dance scene. Now some may point out that a female watching a female strip dance may make either of them a lesbian, but I have been and taken many of my straight female friends to strips clubs and while my friends enjoy the dances and the flirtation involved my friends are still straight and would not have sex with another woman.

As to the person who asked how a human female would find an Asari attractive the answer is quite simple.  I want to point out what happened on Illium when three males were watching an Asari dance and each one said how the Asari looked like their own gender.  So who really knows what an Asari truly looks like and they could use some form of mind control to other races where they see a "female" that closely resembles their own gender.  I would also like to point out that many of my female friends and most women in general regardles of sexual preference would state that they find women more attractive then men.


Just to clarify then, the whole premise of your arguement relies entirely on technicalities? Unproven technicalities...

#973
DarthRevan4life

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Falcon509 wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

Falcon509 wrote...

@DarthRevan4Life

You do realize that even throwing the Liara example out the window, a female Shepard can have a homosexual relationship with Kelly Chambers right?


That would be an interesting point, but to be fair all that you see that happens between Kelly and Shepard is a dance scene. Now some may point out that a female watching a female strip dance may make either of them a lesbian, but I have been and taken many of my straight female friends to strips clubs and while my friends enjoy the dances and the flirtation involved my friends are still straight and would not have sex with another woman.

As to the person who asked how a human female would find an Asari attractive the answer is quite simple.  I want to point out what happened on Illium when three males were watching an Asari dance and each one said how the Asari looked like their own gender.  So who really knows what an Asari truly looks like and they could use some form of mind control to other races where they see a "female" that closely resembles their own gender.  I would also like to point out that many of my female friends and most women in general regardles of sexual preference would state that they find women more attractive then men.


Just to clarify then, the whole premise of your arguement relies entirely on technicalities? Unproven technicalities...


No, a lot of people have pointed to Kelly as an option for a lesbian relationship but correct me if I'm wrong I didn't see anything happen between the two to call Kelly a lesbian "relationship".  Not once did they kiss, sleep with one another, say I love you, etc.  Kelly did a dance in Shepards cabin...hardly a definitive fact to say she was a lesbian option.  Many say Kaiden flirted with Shepard, that's based on opinion, I've yet to see facts.

#974
Guest_rynluna_*

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DarthRevan4life wrote...
Kelly did a dance in Shepards cabin...hardly a definitive fact to say she was a lesbian option. 


So a woman dancing around in skimpy clothing for another woman, isn't a lesbian action?  I'd love to see how many straight girls around here have their straight girl friends dance for them in the same manner.  lmao!! :lol:

#975
Capn47

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Maybe I'm wrong about this but didn't you like at least in someway have to proposition Kelly to go up to your room? flirt with her throughout game?



I've known straight girls to go to strip clubs too, but I've never known a straight girl to pursue a stripper for however long the game takes, hitting on her and eventually asking her up to her room... to then have a lap dance.