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[DarthRevan4life]

rynluna wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...
Kelly did a dance in Shepards cabin...hardly a definitive fact to say she was a lesbian option. 

So a woman dancing around in skimpy clothing for another woman, isn't a lesbian action?  I'd love to see how many straight girls around here have their straight girl friends dance for them in the same manner.  lmao!!

No, it's a form of entertainment and is also a business.  Yes of course some women may dance in scantily clad clothing for another women out of extacy but there's also the reasons I stated before.  However you're mentioning it as one girl doing it to another...I had mentioned it in the context of a strip club where it's a womans job to dance. 

Sorry but as I stated in a previous post, I've had several of my straight girl friends come with me to a strip club, have had lap dances and yet didn't want to sleep with the girl, it's something to do for fun.

[Falcon509]

DarthRevan4life wrote...

No, a lot of people have pointed to Kelly as an option for a lesbian relationship but correct me if I'm wrong I didn't see anything happen between the two to call Kelly a lesbian "relationship".  Not once did they kiss, sleep with one another, say I love you, etc.  Kelly did a dance in Shepards cabin...hardly a definitive fact to say she was a lesbian option.  Many say Kaiden flirted with Shepard, that's based on opinion, I've yet to see facts.

Your point was made on Kelly as the potential is there but not the defining acts that would cement the relationship as lesbian but flirting is a matter of perspective. One person can see flirting where another does not.

You have on the other hand argued that due to the fact that Liara is part of a race that does not have both the male and female gender that they are not in fact female and therefore a female Shepard cannot have a same-sex relationship with her. The problem with that is the entire universe in Mass Effect, even the asari themselves, consider themselves female. They are referred to as "she" or "her" and the stages of their lives are labeled as maidens, matrons, and matriarchs (all female related terms). They are even female in appearance and one can assume that because a male Shepard can have sexual intercourse with Liara, they have the same or at the very least similar physiological characteristics of a human female. So what exactly is it that makes them technically not female?

[DarthRevan4life]

Falcon509 wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

No, a lot of people have pointed to Kelly as an option for a lesbian relationship but correct me if I'm wrong I didn't see anything happen between the two to call Kelly a lesbian "relationship".  Not once did they kiss, sleep with one another, say I love you, etc.  Kelly did a dance in Shepards cabin...hardly a definitive fact to say she was a lesbian option.  Many say Kaiden flirted with Shepard, that's based on opinion, I've yet to see facts.

Your point was made on Kelly as the potential is there but not the defining acts that would cement the relationship as lesbian but flirting is a matter of perspective. One person can see flirting where another does not.

You have on the other hand argued that due to the fact that Liara is part of a race that does not have both the male and female gender that they are not in fact female and therefore a female Shepard cannot have a same-sex relationship with her. The problem with that is the entire universe in Mass Effect, even the asari themselves, consider themselves female. They are referred to as "she" or "her" and the stages of their lives are labeled as maidens, matrons, and matriarchs (all female related terms). They are even female in appearance and one can assume that because a male Shepard can have sexual intercourse with Liara, they have the same or at the very least similar physiological characteristics of a human female. So what exactly is it that makes them technically not female?

Falcon, very good points right there.  I completely agree with you that flirting is relative based on how one views it.  However I can easily argue your point that the Asari call themselves female and use the female related terms such as Matriarch, Matrons, etc...we don't know for a fact that those are terms they are actually losing.  According to the codex entry that was supplied in the "Bring Down the Sky" DLC, it states that everyone has a personal translator that alters an aliens language into the listeners language.  The only words we have ever really heard an Asari say is an Ardatyatchi (sorry for spelling).  I do apologize for nitpicking however I want to bring up as many points as possible.  So considering that codex entry, whose to really say the Asari came up with those terms or it's merely a translation.

[ElitePinecone]

Not to break up a fascinating argument, but we're getting slightly off-topic and it'd be unfortunate if Liara-nitpicking turned into unholy flame wars and mangled corpses strewn all over the wasteland of this thread. This thread isn't specifically for discussion about what gender, if any, Liara is or whether Shepard was/is able to romance same-gendered characters. Strictly speaking, it's meant to discuss possible ways of implementing same-sex romances with the goal of satisfying as many people as possible and finding a method that is suitable for both proponents and opponents.

[Falcon509]

DarthRevan4life wrote...

Falcon, very good points right there.  I completely agree with you that flirting is relative based on how one views it.  However I can easily argue your point that the Asari call themselves female and use the female related terms such as Matriarch, Matrons, etc...we don't know for a fact that those are terms they are actually losing.  According to the codex entry that was supplied in the "Bring Down the Sky" DLC, it states that everyone has a personal translator that alters an aliens language into the listeners language.  The only words we have ever really heard an Asari say is an Ardatyatchi (sorry for spelling).  I do apologize for nitpicking however I want to bring up as many points as possible.  So considering that codex entry, whose to really say the Asari came up with those terms or it's merely a translation.

I can understand the lost-in-translation explanation as it does happen even in the real world. However it is hard to deny that the asaris' physical appearance is distinctly female and that it can be safely said that they are physiologically female as well.

[DarthRevan4life]

Falcon509 wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

Falcon, very good points right there.  I completely agree with you that flirting is relative based on how one views it.  However I can easily argue your point that the Asari call themselves female and use the female related terms such as Matriarch, Matrons, etc...we don't know for a fact that those are terms they are actually losing.  According to the codex entry that was supplied in the "Bring Down the Sky" DLC, it states that everyone has a personal translator that alters an aliens language into the listeners language.  The only words we have ever really heard an Asari say is an Ardatyatchi (sorry for spelling).  I do apologize for nitpicking however I want to bring up as many points as possible.  So considering that codex entry, whose to really say the Asari came up with those terms or it's merely a translation.

I can understand the lost-in-translation explanation as it does happen even in the real world. However it is hard to deny that the asaris' physical appearance is distinctly female and that it can be safely said that they are physiologically female as well.

You're absolutely right about the appearance, I can't argue that point. 
I don't really want to fall back to the whole "who really knows what an
Asari looks like" argument as we can go back and forth.  I could point
out though that I believe Samara stated that when an Asari sleeps with
another species it transforms their nervous system and who knows if that
even involves intercourse between a male of one species and an Asari. 
Who knows though as if we wanted we could just go back and forth lol.

And
ElitePinecone my bad if I turned this argument into something else
entirely off topic.  I guess the easiest thing possible is to maybe have
a more descriptive dialogue wheel or have something said by an NPC and
give Shepard the option in the dialogue wheel to either go with it or
shut it down.

[Falcon509]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Not to break up a fascinating argument, but we're getting slightly off-topic and it'd be unfortunate if Liara-nitpicking turned into unholy flame wars and mangled corpses strewn all over the wasteland of this thread. This thread isn't specifically for discussion about what gender, if any, Liara is or whether Shepard was/is able to romance same-gendered characters. Strictly speaking, it's meant to discuss possible ways of implementing same-sex romances with the goal of satisfying as many people as possible and finding a method that is suitable for both proponents and opponents.

It would be much easier to simply eliminate all romantic subplots under the pretext of Commander Shepard being too busy for a relationship would it not? It wouldn't be any more difficult to create a same-sex romance sub plot than a male-female one though. Proving that there are already homosexual romances in the game would give credence to the idea that they should be expanded upon until they are equal in number to the heterosexual ones.

I'll stop arguing the point if that is what's asked of me however. I don't care either way as I'm more interested in the gameplay than the tiny part romance plays in the story but it was interesting to put my opinions out here in the defense of including the proposed storylines.

Modifié par Falcon509, 25 juillet 2010 - 05:06 .

[ElitePinecone]

I don't want to feel like I've single-handedly stifled debate in this thread... but it's just that civility can easily turn into very negative personal attacks very quickly, and there's been more than one thread closed by the forum mods (quite rightly) for descending into fairly vicious arguments.



I'm not in any way saying this argument was getting personal or heated, but that it had the potential to attract other posters who may not have been so civil. It's better if we stick to less controversial lines of argument, such as what future romance options could be like, how they could be implemented and what improvements could be made to the romance system (for example, making the dialogue wheel simpler and clearer) in order to accommodate as many people as possible.

[Falcon509]

Well it would be interesting if the player could pursue love interests that weren't a part of the crew. Like at a port or something. It would certainly be safer too...

[Ziggy]

 

rynluna wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...
Not to break up a fascinating argument, but we're getting slightly off-topic and it'd be unfortunate if Liara-nitpicking turned into unholy flame wars and mangled corpses strewn all over the wasteland of this thread. This thread isn't specifically for discussion about what gender, if any, Liara is or whether Shepard was/is able to romance same-gendered characters. Strictly speaking, it's meant to discuss possible ways of implementing same-sex romances with the goal of satisfying as many people as possible and finding a method that is suitable for both proponents and opponents.

You are right.  I'm sorry if I helped steer this off topic.  
Since I already believe there has been lesbian romance in the game, I would not be disappointed if Bioware didn't add any more lesbian romances.  I would however be sad if they never give any m/m options in the game.  I find that highly unfair.

I would be. There wasn't a proper lesbian romance in ME2. I was happy with Liara as ss romance, regardless of whatever technicalities people try and argue to say it wasn't, but ME2 backtracked.
The feeling of unfairness should be directed at the exclusion of any openly homosexual romances - which is part of the reason why they can include some f/f (under the guise of asari being monogendered and kelly's dance thing) and not m/m, since they can then technically claim 'there are no homosexual romances in ME'.
Saying it's unfair that there is ff but not mm is counter productive.

[Syledir]

DarthRevan4Life wrote...

To say there is no set gender in Mass Effect is I'm sorry, wrong in every regard.  Tell me something, when the first trailer for Mass Effect came out...what gender was Shepard?  In all previews of the game, boxart, trailers, Commander Shepard is male.

You could say the same about the Grey Warden (Dragon Age). Every trailer depicted him as Aeden Cousland, the human nobleman. Oddly, there were s/s relationships possible in Dragon Age and nobody claimed that Aedan Cousland was a predefined or canon character. The reason for Shepards look in the trailers is marketing. Sci-Fi is still very much a white dude genre and as such a white dude appeals the little kiddies the most. Apart from that BioWare wouldn't want to confuse potential buyers with different Shepards in different trailers.

I want to throw this argument out the window, an Asari can sleep with another Asari and reproduce correct?  Alright and from what I know of females of the human race if they sleep together can't reproduce, correct?  So you're attempt to throw the Asari as "female" is invalid.  If we want to see an alien race who appears female and classify them as such is ignorant.  Do you honestly believe if a race is omnisexual they would have came up with the word "lesbian"?  No of course they wouldn't because that's a word the human race came up with when two females sleep with one another.  Using our own set of definitions on a race that we truly know nothing about (even though it's a game) is just irresponsible.

It's not invalid and you can't throw it out of the window. There are females of different species on this planet that can reproduce without any males. One example is the New Mexico Whiptail,an all female race of lizards. They reproduce by means of Parthenogenesis, participate in mating rituals and give birth only to daughters.
Let's just pretend the New Mexico Whiptail meets a female little striped whiptail, which is also able to reproduce without a male, and a male little striped whiptail. The New Mexico Whiptail realizes for the first time that it has a gender. It is a she and she is a lesbian lizard. Simple as that.
You may be right that Asari never considered themselves to be female, but only until they met other species. Asari call themselves women and female. The galactic codex defines them as women and female aswell. Let's be honest, if that wouldn't be true the most influential species in Citadel space would do something about it, if only for sake of good education. Only Liara begged to differ during ME1. During that time she was still a virgin and had  very little contact to other species up to that point. It was she who was ignorant, not the other way around.
Hell, even BioWare define the Asari as female.

I want to point out what happened on Illium when three males were watching an Asari dance and each one said how the Asari looked like their own gender.

Actually they were talking about how the Asari resembled their own species, not their gender.

However I can easily argue your point that the Asari call themselves female and use the female related terms such as Matriarch, Matrons, etc...we don't know for a fact that those are terms they are actually losing.  According to the codex entry it states that everyone has a personal translator that alters an aliens language into the listeners language.  The only words we have ever really heard an Asari say is an Ardatyatchi (sorry for spelling).  So considering that codex entry, whose to really say the Asari came up with those terms or it's merely a translation.

If that would be the case, you could never truly be sure that a translation by that machine was correct. You could always second guess everything you hear. Interspecies contact, operations, relationships would be strained by this. No, they wouldn't use that thing if it wouldn't work flawlessly.

Despite all this, BioWare created a romanceable NPC (Liara) that satisfied those who wished for a lesbian romance. And they damn well know it. Female or not, Woman or not, she worked just fine as a lesbian love interest. But instead of going one step further they backed away from it completely. No one would have freaked, if Thane would have been optional for a gay romance. In fact, many expected it. No one would have freaked, if Jacob would have been gay, because people know what to expect from BioWare.

[Ziggy]

So if they introduced a male equivalent to asari no one would care because there's still technically no homosexuality?... Riiiight.

Modifié par Em23, 26 juillet 2010 - 05:58 .

[Poaches]

Something tells me they don't have the quads to do that. 

[FataliTensei]

Poaches wrote...

Something tells me they don't have the quads to do that. 

[shinyblacklatexkitty]

It's really kind of glaring how the Jack relationship has all the same text as the male one, liking you and saying she's not had a "boyfriend or girlfriend" before - I looked it up on Youtube and was surprised... it's all exactly the same right up to where it suddenly cuts off and refuses to even talk to you, it's like it was there then they removed it or something like they did with Ashley or simply sloppily cutting it off because they didn't want there to be an option since wouldn't be "innocent" enough for Bioware or they simply don't think it's worthy of spending any time doing.



3 male relationships for female, 3 female relationships for male. The "others" are not serious relationships and that's signposted by them not counting for the "paramour" achievement (flirting (Samara), a dance and clothed lie down (Kelly) or a kiss of death (Morinth)).



It's hard to tell with no response from Bioware but that interview I linked before sounded very dodgy though that's just the opinion of one man on the team, I just hope they won't stonewall everyone all over again with "3 male, 3 female, full stop" in Mass Effect 3.



Jack in particularly being forced to be by removal/omission of content annoys me seriously, because they could have done that beautifully. It's really rare for lesbian relationships in the media to be portrayed as anything more than 2 very soft femme girls kissing all nicely and non-threateningly, it would have been daring to show the violent casual sex one especially. It really should have ended something like this:

youtube.com/watch?v=dyb7IYe-tDw&hd=1

[s0meguy6665]

waste time on a tiny percentage that wants same sex relationships? no thx. waste time on non-bisexual gay relationships? DEFINITELY NOT. i'd rather they put in more content for male-female relationships. don't get me wrong im not against gays, but the part of the population that is gay is so small that i think they shouldn't put much effort into it (no i didn't mean a small but vocal part). also there are always mods to enable same sex relationships, for example i've seen one for jacob and it's youtube video and it worked out well.

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:15 .

[Wittand25]

s0meguy6665 wrote...

waste time on a tiny percentage that wants same sex relationships? no thx. waste time on non-bisexual gay relationships? DEFINITELY NOT. i'd rather they put in more content for male-female relationships. don't get me wrong im not against gays, but the part of the population that is gay is so small that i think they shouldn't put much effort into it (no i didn't mean a small but vocal part). also there are always mods to enable same sex relationships, for example i've seen one for jacob and it's youtube video and it worked out well.

The relationships are mutually exclusive. ME 2 has six straight relationships how many more do you want ? You can always just have one active anyway. I freely admit that the market for straight relationships is bigger than that for gay/lesbian ones, but I am also sure that DA:O managed to have more satisfied players with less LI because the options were more diverse than those in ME2.
The work around is exactly that a work around and does not "work well" because some lines are not voiced not to mention that cheating should not be necessary to have this option at all and it is still unclear how a cheated relationship will affect the ability to import a ME2 safegame into ME3.

[s0meguy6665]

Wittand25 wrote...

s0meguy6665 wrote...

waste time on a tiny percentage that wants same sex relationships? no thx. waste time on non-bisexual gay relationships? DEFINITELY NOT. i'd rather they put in more content for male-female relationships. don't get me wrong im not against gays, but the part of the population that is gay is so small that i think they shouldn't put much effort into it (no i didn't mean a small but vocal part). also there are always mods to enable same sex relationships, for example i've seen one for jacob and it's youtube video and it worked out well.

The relationships are mutually exclusive. ME 2 has six straight relationships how many more do you want ? You can always just have one active anyway. I freely admit that the market for straight relationships is bigger than that for gay/lesbian ones, but I am also sure that DA:O managed to have more satisfied players with less LI because the options were more diverse than those in ME2.
The work around is exactly that a work around and does not "work well" because some lines are not voiced not to mention that cheating should not be necessary to have this option at all and it is still unclear how a cheated relationship will affect the ability to import a ME2 safegame into ME3.

cheating (which it isn't really) should be necessary because by far most men aren't bisexual, so it would be unrealistic to have them be one by default. also there's an anti-gay undercurrent in some societies that would generate much controversy, hurting their sales more than it would benefit them (with gay fans of the franchise buying the game anyway). they did put in a single bisexual (if you count liara as one) but yeah... if they'd put in 2 gays of both genders the effort put in would be way unproportional to their market share.

by the way, Tali, Thane, Jack and Kaidan are bisexual like what was said in the starter post? had no clue...

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:40 .

[ScotGaymer]

That is seriously wrong someguy6665.



But recent studies show that only around 20% of men are actually straight. And around the same again is gay.



So that means that actually the vast majority of men ARE bisexual. Even if they dont admit it.

[s0meguy6665]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

That is seriously wrong someguy6665.

But recent studies show that only around 20% of men are actually straight. And around the same again is gay.

So that means that actually the vast majority of men ARE bisexual. Even if they dont admit it.

yeah totally. a gay man's fantasy (world).

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:46 .

[Wittand25]

s0meguy6665 wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

s0meguy6665 wrote...

waste time on a tiny percentage that wants same sex relationships? no thx. waste time on non-bisexual gay relationships? DEFINITELY NOT. i'd rather they put in more content for male-female relationships. don't get me wrong im not against gays, but the part of the population that is gay is so small that i think they shouldn't put much effort into it (no i didn't mean a small but vocal part). also there are always mods to enable same sex relationships, for example i've seen one for jacob and it's youtube video and it worked out well.

The relationships are mutually exclusive. ME 2 has six straight relationships how many more do you want ? You can always just have one active anyway. I freely admit that the market for straight relationships is bigger than that for gay/lesbian ones, but I am also sure that DA:O managed to have more satisfied players with less LI because the options were more diverse than those in ME2.
The work around is exactly that a work around and does not "work well" because some lines are not voiced not to mention that cheating should not be necessary to have this option at all and it is still unclear how a cheated relationship will affect the ability to import a ME2 safegame into ME3.

cheating (which it isn't really) should be necessary because by far most men aren't bisexual, so it would be unrealistic to have them be one by default. also there's an anti-gay undercurrent in some societies that would generate much controversy, hurting their sales more than it would benefit them (with gay fans of the franchise buying the game anyway). they did put in a single bisexual (if you count liara as one) but yeah... if they'd put in 2 gays of both genders the effort put in would be way unproportional to their market share.

by the way, Tali, Thane, Jack and Kaidan are bisexual like what was said in the starter post? had no clue...

Because Zevran and Leliana hurt the sales of DA:O that severly that is was financial failure ?
Having a easily avoidable option for a m/m romance would not generate any negative feedback or would hurt the sales in any of the major markets.
On behalf on realism, How realistic is it that every woman, who has more than three lines of dialog on board of the Normandy wants to have sex with a male Shepard, and only one of them has the strength to resist him (and that only after several centuries of life experience, mental training in a special order and a rather horrible genetic disease) All the other woman on board cannot resist him even if sex with Shepard can be potentially fatal to them.

[ScotGaymer]

s0meguy6665 wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

That is seriously wrong someguy6665.

But recent studies show that only around 20% of men are actually straight. And around the same again is gay.

So that means that actually the vast majority of men ARE bisexual. Even if they dont admit it.

yeah totally. a gay man's fantasy (world).

Dont be rude.

I am a gay man. And its no fantasy. Most gay guys are as wary of bisexual guys as much as str8 blokes are.

[LiquidGrape]

I'm sorry if I don't respond directly to your posts, s0meguy6665, but I'm not fluent in nonsense.
But really. What is your agenda here?
You're allegedly not opposed to homosexuality, but you oppose homosexual romance?
You want more options for male/female romance, so as to be given the opportunity to switch partners?
You claim Mass Effect's sales would be hurt by adding homosexual content, when Dragon Age: Origins proved a massive success despite, or perhaps partly thanks to, its inclusion of such content?

Help me out here. I can see your writing, but so help me if there's anything of value to be derived from it.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:58 .