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Fight for the Love *Achievement Unlocked*


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#1226
MaxQuartiroli

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Wittand25 wrote...

People always complain, so worrying that people will not be satisfied with the romance-able NPC and/or the romance is pointless (as long as it is a fully developed romance and not a second grate fling like Kelly) and should not influence Bioware´s decision on that topic because you will find people complaining about every game feature and the only way to listen to all those complains would be to not making games at all.


Yes, but in this case this thing happened...

There is a post of David Gaider in DA forum where he said they were a little annoyed by all the criticism they received from gay people because in their opinion they didn't represent the right kind of gay with Zevran. The exact words were something like "After we saw this reaction, we are wondering if it was worth it".

I trust Kronner is referring to that post because he is repeating exactly the same concept of David... Now, we know they are two different teams, but I don't trust they don't exchange opinion, impressions and so on.

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 04 août 2010 - 10:21 .


#1227
catabuca

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MaxQuartiroli wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

People always complain, so worrying that people will not be satisfied with the romance-able NPC and/or the romance is pointless (as long as it is a fully developed romance and not a second grate fling like Kelly) and should not influence Bioware´s decision on that topic because you will find people complaining about every game feature and the only way to listen to all those complains would be to not making games at all.


Yes, but in this case this thing happened...

There is a post of David Gaider in DA forum where he said they were a little annoyed by all the criticism they received from gay people because in their opinion they didn't represent the right kind of gay with Zevran. The exact words were something like "After we saw this reaction, we are wondering if it was worth it".

I trust Kronner is referring to that post because he is repeating exactly the same concept of David... Now, we know they are two different teams, but I don't trust they don't exchange opinion, impressions and so on.


Quite frankly, that shouldn't have been David Gaider's response. The response should have been something along the lines of: What did we do wrong? What did we do right? How can we improve on it in the future?

The respresentation of race and sexuality in cultural products is an evolutionary process. Think back to the first movies with black or gay characters - these days they get flack for their somewhat simplistic and stereotypical representations. However, the answer is not to avoid ever depicting black or gay people in films - the answer is to learn from mistakes, take advice, and keep moving forward.

Gay and bisexual people have long been represented as promiscuous - it's something of a tired stereotype. I personally thought Zevran's character was well rounded, and there were good reasons for his outlook on sex. I can also see why some thought it fell into that predictable trap. Regardless, it's a good thing there were gay choices available in the game, and with due care and attention those characters and others like them can evolve into ones that don't fall into that same trap.

I imagine Gaider et al might have been defensive somewhat as well. You spend a lot of time creating a character and people tell you you've been stereotypical in their depiction. Your first reaction is likely to be a defensive one, since no one likes to be told they missed the mark a bit, especially where these sorts of stereotypes are involved. That's a natural response from them, but one Gaider perhaps should not have said out loud.

Modifié par catabuca, 04 août 2010 - 10:41 .


#1228
Wittand25

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MaxQuartiroli wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

People always complain, so worrying that people will not be satisfied with the romance-able NPC and/or the romance is pointless (as long as it is a fully developed romance and not a second grate fling like Kelly) and should not influence Bioware´s decision on that topic because you will find people complaining about every game feature and the only way to listen to all those complains would be to not making games at all.


Yes, but in this case this thing happened...

There is a post of David Gaider in DA forum where he said they were a little annoyed by all the criticism they received from gay people because in their opinion they didn't represent the right kind of gay with Zevran. The exact words were something like "After we saw this reaction, we are wondering if it was worth it".

I trust Kronner is referring to that post because he is repeating exactly the same concept of David... Now, we know they are two different teams, but I don't trust they don't exchange opinion, impressions and so on.

I honestly don't recall any negative feedback that went beyond that what every other romancable NPC received. (manipulative b*tch, permanent whining traitor, religious nut case to mention the most common complains about the other three.)
Mr. Gaider did seem annoyed because those who did not like the Zevran romance often brought up that Zevran is flamboyant because Zevran really isn´t. But really there was no unusual negative forum backslash and practically all noteworthy media coverage by gay-oriented or gaming outlets was positive too.

#1229
ScotGaymer

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Wittand25 wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

People always complain, so worrying that people will not be satisfied with the romance-able NPC and/or the romance is pointless (as long as it is a fully developed romance and not a second grate fling like Kelly) and should not influence Bioware´s decision on that topic because you will find people complaining about every game feature and the only way to listen to all those complains would be to not making games at all.


Yes, but in this case this thing happened...

There is a post of David Gaider in DA forum where he said they were a little annoyed by all the criticism they received from gay people because in their opinion they didn't represent the right kind of gay with Zevran. The exact words were something like "After we saw this reaction, we are wondering if it was worth it".

I trust Kronner is referring to that post because he is repeating exactly the same concept of David... Now, we know they are two different teams, but I don't trust they don't exchange opinion, impressions and so on.

I honestly don't recall any negative feedback that went beyond that what every other romancable NPC received. (manipulative b*tch, permanent whining traitor, religious nut case to mention the most common complains about the other three.)
Mr. Gaider did seem annoyed because those who did not like the Zevran romance often brought up that Zevran is flamboyant because Zevran really isn´t. But really there was no unusual negative forum backslash and practically all noteworthy media coverage by gay-oriented or gaming outlets was positive too.



I agree with you here.

I love Zevran. Hes a well rounded fleshed out character - yeh he is abit of a slapper but the reason for it make sense. So from a writing stand point he is a believable character.
I also dont understand that "omg hes so flamboyant" comments come from because he ISNT at all flamboyant. He IS flirtatious and a bit "metrosexual" but not flamboyant. Theres no way a gay person would be making those comments because the difference is plain to see. I reckon it must be closet homophobes objecting to the gay without wanting to admit thats what they are objecting to cos they dont want to admit to anyone or themselves they are homophobes.

Its a shame Mr Gaider was annyoed by it - but I can see why. The only criticism I had of the DA romances (as apposed to the ME2 romances) was that it was far too easy to romance someone. In my first game as a mage that i evolved into an arcane warrior (my avatar character) i was intending on romancing Zevran but hadnt started yet and then Alistair started prattling on at me about my "thing" with Morrigan.

I was like wtf? What thing? I dont have a thing with that shrew! What are you on about?

So I checked and sure enough there was Morrigan with an approval of around 30 set at "interested". Curses. I just went with it anyway and didnt bother with Zevran; decided to have him in a later playthru.

Me2 also suffers from the too easy to romance problem; but unlike DA the LIs in ME2 hate you FOREVER if you reject them or dare to romance someone else. God.

#1230
Tirigon

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MrDudley wrote...


Close your eyes.  Forget you are a 21st century westerner.  You are neither conservative or liberals.  You are a 28th century geneticist.  Top of your field.  Humans are living on 150-300 years on average.  You've unraveled the mysteries of DNA.  You can design life at will.   You see the human body as nothing more than a machine.  Human emotions have long died in your cold, genetically engineered body.   Your IQ is over 300. 

You are in charge of the human alliances genome initiative.  It's your job to get the human race closer to perfection.  Love and such chemically induced illusions of the mind have all but been bred out of you. 

Would you make all your test tubes babies straight?  Yes. You see humans as machines.  Sex is a means to an end, nothing more.  


NO. It is not. Seeing as I am already perfect, I will make all new children sterile so they don´t ruin my creation with uncontrolled procreation.
I will not care if they enjoy sex or not, and with whom, because the meaning of life is fun. If it is fun for someone to love someone of his own gender, that´s fine. All that makes you happy is good.

Perfection lies not in being like a machine: perfection lies in unlimited hedonism, in doing what you want without any outdated rules stopping you.


#1231
Kenrae

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FitScotGaymer wrote...
Me2 also suffers from the too easy to romance problem; but unlike DA the LIs in ME2 hate you FOREVER if you reject them or dare to romance someone else. God.


I've rejected ME2 romances without them hating me... actually, I don't remember anyone hating me for that.

#1232
Tirigon

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deleterguy wrote...

I don't like gays, don't put it in.


I can´t tell if this is sarcasm or the equivalent of saying "I´m an idiot". Enlighten me please.

#1233
The Big Nothing

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If Commander Shepard was gay, how would he/she save the galaxy?

#1234
Ziggy

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PWENER wrote...

Em23 wrote...

MrDudley wrote...
Would you make all your test tubes babies straight?  Yes. You see humans as machines.  Sex is a means to an end, nothing more.  

Apparently science is getting to the point were men are no longer needed to make babies.
Therefore, I think men will die out and the future will be one of heavy to industrial strength lesbianism.

(as, according to Stephen Fry on QI, was the case 150 thousand years ago, so it would make for very satifying symmetry :))

Where the hell are you gonna get sperm?

ooh, backfired.

And before you say it, cloning stops working after a few generations. Cell degeneration and all that.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Well I'm not actually on the research team myself, but there was an article about in a science magazine. Apparently they can make artificial sperm from embryonic stem cells, a method which they hope to perfect by 2015... but don't worry, I'm sure we'll keep men around to open jars and move furniture and stuff like that ;)

#1235
Tirigon

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The Big Nothing wrote...

If Commander Shepard was gay, how would he/she save the galaxy?


Well, there are two ways: He could either just shoot all the bad guys like his straight couterpart in another universe or seduce the reapers and assassinate them during their orgasm................

Or he convinces them that he will exterminate sentient life by making everyone gay = no children anymore = humanity dies out in 1 generation. So the Reapers will retreat and he can say: "Hey noobs, I lied!!!" and everyone´s happy.

Straight Shep has only the shooting option. You see, gay Shep is much more efficient at saving the galaxy!!

#1236
billywaffles

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I support you guys in the sense that it could be fun that some new IP from bioware, the main character would be gay. At least it would be different and original.



As for ME3 I think it doesn't make any sense. Shepard will not suddenly turn gay or "starting to feel confortable" with someone of his same-sex while the reapers are destroying everything. I even think that ME3 shouldn't be THAT focused on the main characters but the story itself.



Sorry, that's my opinion, but if you get what you want, congratulations then ;)

#1237
Ziggy

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billywaffles wrote...
I support you guys in the sense that it could be fun that some new IP from bioware, the main character would be gay. At least it would be different and original.

As for ME3 I think it doesn't make any sense. Shepard will not suddenly turn gay or "starting to feel confortable" with someone of his same-sex while the reapers are destroying everything. I even think that ME3 shouldn't be THAT focused on the main characters but the story itself.

Sorry, that's my opinion, but if you get what you want, congratulations then ;)

I don't really get this stance. Giving shep the option to be gay doesn't necessarily make him gay - if you don't want him to be then don't take the option. SImple.

#1238
Boombox

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Tirigon wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

If Commander Shepard was gay, how would he/she save the galaxy?


Well, there are two ways: He could either just shoot all the bad guys like his straight couterpart in another universe or seduce the reapers and assassinate them during their orgasm................

Or he convinces them that he will exterminate sentient life by making everyone gay = no children anymore = humanity dies out in 1 generation. So the Reapers will retreat and he can say: "Hey noobs, I lied!!!" and everyone´s happy.

Straight Shep has only the shooting option. You see, gay Shep is much more efficient at saving the galaxy!!


haha! That'll work. :lol:

#1239
PsyrenY

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Tirigon wrote...

deleterguy wrote...

I don't like gays, don't put it in.


I can´t tell if this is sarcasm or the equivalent of saying "I´m an idiot". Enlighten me please.


Don't feed the trolls [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

People always complain, so worrying that people will not be satisfied with the romance-able NPC and/or the romance is pointless (as long as it is a fully developed romance and not a second grate fling like Kelly) and should not influence Bioware´s decision on that topic because you will find people complaining about every game feature and the only way to listen to all those complains would be to not making games at all.


Yes, but in this case this thing happened...

There is a post of David Gaider in DA forum where he said they were a little annoyed by all the criticism they received from gay people because in their opinion they didn't represent the right kind of gay with Zevran. The exact words were something like "After we saw this reaction, we are wondering if it was worth it".

I trust Kronner is referring to that post because he is repeating exactly the same concept of David... Now, we know they are two different teams, but I don't trust they don't exchange opinion, impressions and so on.


I read that as: "omg y r u guyz complaning? We gave u elf butt-buddy!"

I somehow doubt the DA:O fanbase was complaining about Leliana's much deeper and more satisfying lesbian relationship. Zevran was just a 2-dimensional mish-mash of stereotypes. He's effeminate, he's promiscuous, not interested in a serious/committed relationship, and he's ecstatic over shoes! We're ever so grateful.

Compare him to Sky in Jade Empire - devoted husband and father who just happened to have a facet to his sexuality he had not explored, but was willing to with the main character. His sexuality was purely incidental to his character - Zevran's, meanwhile, revolved around it.

#1240
Kenrae

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Zevran is A LOT more deeper than what you make him out to be. Even without romancing him.

#1241
Guest_MessyPossum_*

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Tirigon wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

If Commander Shepard was gay, how would he/she save the galaxy?


Well, there are two ways: He could either just shoot all the bad guys like his straight couterpart in another universe or seduce the reapers and assassinate them during their orgasm................

Or he convinces them that he will exterminate sentient life by making everyone gay = no children anymore = humanity dies out in 1 generation. So the Reapers will retreat and he can say: "Hey noobs, I lied!!!" and everyone´s happy.

Straight Shep has only the shooting option. You see, gay Shep is much more efficient at saving the galaxy!!

+ 10 approval.^_^

#1242
catabuca

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Kenrae wrote...

Zevran is A LOT more deeper than what you make him out to be. Even without romancing him.


This is true. I found his backstory quite emotional. My male Warden romanced him during my first play through, and it was very touching. I think it's true of any of the characters - they can all seem bland or one-dimensional unless you take the time to fully explore them. On my first playthrough I never really spoke to Sten; on my second I was amazed by how much there was to learn about him if you got him to like you. I'd previously written him off as a boring character.

That said, the stuff about lazy stereotypes (promiscuous, flamboyant etc) still stand. Having a well-rounded character can still mean that character has some aspects of their personality that can be challenged.

#1243
MaxQuartiroli

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Optimystic_X wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

People always complain, so worrying that people will not be satisfied with the romance-able NPC and/or the romance is pointless (as long as it is a fully developed romance and not a second grate fling like Kelly) and should not influence Bioware´s decision on that topic because you will find people complaining about every game feature and the only way to listen to all those complains would be to not making games at all.


Yes, but in this case this thing happened...

There is a post of David Gaider in DA forum where he said they were a little annoyed by all the criticism they received from gay people because in their opinion they didn't represent the right kind of gay with Zevran. The exact words were something like "After we saw this reaction, we are wondering if it was worth it".

I trust Kronner is referring to that post because he is repeating exactly the same concept of David... Now, we know they are two different teams, but I don't trust they don't exchange opinion, impressions and so on.


I read that as: "omg y r u guyz complaning? We gave u elf butt-buddy!"


After a little scavenger I found that post and I can report the exacte quote

David Gaider wrote...
...... when you have the massive number of things we need to include in an RPG, from the large to the small, it always adds up to more than we can possibly include. So where do you cut? We didn't cut the same-sex romances because we thought they were worth including and added value. Yet even then there were some comments on these forums about Zevran (for example) -- that he was either "too gay", "the wrong kind of gay" or that the fact that Alistair wasn't also included as an option was discriminatory... at which point you start to wonder why you bothered. I'm glad that there were a great many people who expressed that they did value having these options, because I'm afraid that if one's stance is "all or nothing" on something like this the answer nine times out of ten is thus "nothing".


Honestly, like many of you said here, I didn't read in forums so many complainining by people, and above all I didn't see that attitude like "Do it well or don't do it at all, please" Posted Image

#1244
Kenrae

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catabuca wrote...
That said, the stuff about lazy stereotypes (promiscuous, flamboyant etc) still stand. Having a well-rounded character can still mean that character has some aspects of their personality that can be challenged.


What should the writers do then? Never portray a gay character (for example) using any stereotype about them? It's a stereotype, not everybody is like that, but that doesn't mean nobody is like that. In the case of Zevran everything is well explained and makes sense (if you explore the character), that's all I ask. If we completely flee from stereotypes in order to not offend anybody we're falling into political correctness territory - something I despise.
Besides, it's not like Zevran is their first gay character. Sky didn't follow any stereotype.

#1245
catabuca

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Kenrae wrote...

catabuca wrote...
That said, the stuff about lazy stereotypes (promiscuous, flamboyant etc) still stand. Having a well-rounded character can still mean that character has some aspects of their personality that can be challenged.


What should the writers do then? Never portray a gay character (for example) using any stereotype about them? It's a stereotype, not everybody is like that, but that doesn't mean nobody is like that. In the case of Zevran everything is well explained and makes sense (if you explore the character), that's all I ask. If we completely flee from stereotypes in order to not offend anybody we're falling into political correctness territory - something I despise.
Besides, it's not like Zevran is their first gay character. Sky didn't follow any stereotype.


Being aware of what stereotypes are out there in order to avoid reiterating them is just good practice. Of course, a gay person can be promiscuous, just as a straight person can, but when you're creating a cultural product you need to be aware of the impact such characterisations have.

This isn't about making every character thoroughly anodyne for fear of offending - this is about sensitivity. Perhaps it's just unfortunate that it was Zevran that ended up as the promiscuous one (albeit with a good backstory if you bothered to follow it), but the fact is that there are certain stereotypes and devices that are used in media when dealing with gay characters that have become predictable. For example, the women in TV series' who suddenly become bi during sweeps, only to either be killed off, leave the show, or be 'cured' later on.

This isn't about the writers going out of their way to produce offensive portrayals or situations, but about the way certain 'lazy' stereotypes are used when they needn't be ('lazy' because they are like placeholders: it's easy to portray a character using traits people recognise because they've been used time and time again rather than innovate and potentially 'confuse' people with a characterisation that falls outside of that standard model). You mention the character of Sky - I haven't played that game so I can't comment on how that worked, but it appears that is a good example of not relying on these lazy characterisations. I'm not bashing BW, because anyone can fall into the trap no matter how 'liberal' or 'progressive' they believe themselves to be simply because we think of people as 'types', it's how we classify. All I'm saying is that rather than Gaider saying 'I don't know why we bothered' it would be better to try to understand whatever criticisms, why they might be criticised, and think of ways to do better in the future.

#1246
JockBuster

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The Big Nothing wrote...

If Commander Shepard was gay, how would he/she save the galaxy?

Well THIS Commander Shepard (male) IS a life member of the NRA and served in the US Army. He has no problem killing anyone/thing that gets in his way. What I resent is having to play as a female just to sleep with Kaiden. Shepard and Kaiden would have NO problem teaming up on and off the battle field, and cleaning the clock of anyone that tried to get between them. Kaiden is NOT promiscuous and does NOT enter into relationships nor sex lightly [conversation about Rhana]. Shepard is a hard a@@ and doesn't have time to screw around with distractions from the mission, but he still needs relief, someone to hug and someone to share experiences with. He's a good listener, but don't waste his time.
ME3, bring back Kaiden and Grunt then watch out Reapers cuz you're gonna be toast. Shepard and Kaiden are Alliance MARINES not some limp wristed whusses. They know which end of a weapon the bullets come out of, how to aim them and how to hit their targets to eliminate the threat. They are buddies, bunk and otherwise, and watch out for each other.
While I'm at it:
Ships are FEMALE, period; never a he (Soverign, maybe an IT)
Ships have HEADS not restrooms
Shepard has THE biggest PAIR in the galaxy rivaled only by Grunt's Quad

#1247
Kenrae

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catabuca wrote...
Being aware of what stereotypes are out there in order to avoid reiterating them is just good practice. Of course, a gay person can be promiscuous, just as a straight person can, but when you're creating a cultural product you need to be aware of the impact such characterisations have.

This isn't about making every character thoroughly anodyne for fear of offending - this is about sensitivity.


And this, to me, is political correctness. It's completely unreal because you're avoiding something that exists.

Perhaps it's just unfortunate that it was Zevran that ended up as the promiscuous one (albeit with a good backstory if you bothered to follow it),


I don't think Zevran was the only promiscuous one. Leliana, Morrigan and Oghren strike me as quite promiscuous characters. Oghren isn't more promiscuous because he can't, not because he doesn't want. In general, people in Thedas seem to be more carefree about sex than most cultures on Earth, we should take that into account too.

but the fact is that there are certain stereotypes and devices that are used in media when dealing with gay characters that have become predictable. For example, the women in TV series' who suddenly become bi during sweeps, only to either be killed off, leave the show, or be 'cured' later on.


I think I don't follow those TV series because I don't know what you're talking about:P.

This isn't about the writers going out of their way to produce offensive portrayals or situations, but about the way certain 'lazy' stereotypes are used when they needn't be ('lazy' because they are like placeholders: it's easy to portray a character using traits people recognise because they've been used time and time again rather than innovate and potentially 'confuse' people with a characterisation that falls outside of that standard model). You mention the character of Sky - I haven't played that game so I can't comment on how that worked, but it appears that is a good example of not relying on these lazy characterisations. I'm not bashing BW, because anyone can fall into the trap no matter how 'liberal' or 'progressive' they believe themselves to be simply because we think of people as 'types', it's how we classify. All I'm saying is that rather than Gaider saying 'I don't know why we bothered' it would be better to try to understand whatever criticisms, why they might be criticised, and think of ways to do better in the future.


I agree with your last comment about Gaider, but I can't agree on the rest. I mean, I know that many writers become lazy and just follow stereotypes but, when they do that, characters become flat (and can enforce an unjust stereotype in the process) . I just don't think the solution is the opposite, just write deep, believable, characters, that's everything we should ask for.

If anything, Oghren was your stereotype dwarf, but by virtue of being that he is an outcast in his dwarven society, which is a nice spin too.

If their next gay characters are the same then you'd have a point, but we need more sample data.

#1248
Siansonea

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Super ._. Shepard wrote...

why not but im not gay there r gay people out their so let their be same sex romance


Now that is a mature attitude.B)

#1249
Siansonea

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The Big Nothing wrote...

If Commander Shepard was gay, how would he/she save the galaxy?


Fabulously.:wizard:

#1250
CShep25

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David Gaider wrote...
...... when you have the massive number of things we need to include in an RPG, from the large to the small, it always adds up to more than we can possibly include. So where do you cut? We didn't cut the same-sex romances because we thought they were worth including and added value. Yet even then there were some comments on these forums about Zevran (for example) -- that he was either "too gay", "the wrong kind of gay" or that the fact that Alistair wasn't also included as an option was discriminatory... at which point you start to wonder why you bothered. I'm glad that there were a great many people who expressed that they did value having these options, because I'm afraid that if one's stance is "all or nothing" on something like this the answer nine times out of ten is thus "nothing".


Wow. So that's the reason there's no gay in ME2. I have noticed whiny immature rage and high & mighty intolerance amongst the credible and reasonable complaints in this thread, so I can definately see how some very vocal gay activists who entered Dragon Age scouring for stereotypes rather than stumbling into some could be heard by the BW staff. We know how the official sites are; people take comfort in whining about everything and nothing. No wonder they removed same sex content after that lambasting; if you can't please everybody, the simplest solution is to leave it out. And then those who enjoyed Zevran's character suffer in ME2. Well done, far left political correctness gay group; you're the reason you got ignored in ME2. Posted Image