9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Portraying bisexual and gay characters in any sort of fiction is going to be a balancing act, that's just the way things are right now. I definitely do not think such characters should be walking stereotypes, but by the same token I would also object to too much political correctness. I encourage BioWare to take risks, and remain mindful that at the end of the day a compelling character is a compelling character, and we can forgive a misstep or two of we are suitably entertained. And if the character model is sufficiently attractive.

I also kinda see where David Gaider is coming from, there are a lot of whiners on the boards, who literally complain about EVERYTHING. 99% of that whining falls into the Not Helping category.

[LiquidGrape]

CShep25 wrote...
Well done, far left political correctness gay group; you're the reason you got ignored in ME2.

Of course! Not only did they want to be catered to; but they wanted to be catered to respectfully!
THE NERVE!

Note: I still have no idea how Zevran was portrayed. I just like to be snarky when given the opportunity!

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 04 août 2010 - 03:39 .

[catabuca]

LiquidGrape wrote...

CShep25 wrote...
Well done, far left political correctness gay group; you're the reason you got ignored in ME2.

Of course! Not only did they want to be catered to; but they wanted to be catered to respectfully!
THE NERVE!

Note: I still have no idea how Zevran was portrayed. I just like to be snarky when given the opportunity!

Just don't go getting all uppity now - be glad BW let you and your kind exist at all.

/snark

As you were ...

[Nordic Einar]

At the end of the day, BW is free not to be inclusive. There are other things I can spend that $60 dollars on; it's what I did w/ ME2, it's what I'll do w/ ME3, and it's what I'll do w/ DA2. <Shrugs>



I miss Black Isle >.>

[catabuca]

Nordic Einar wrote...

At the end of the day, BW is free not to be inclusive. There are other things I can spend that $60 dollars on; it's what I did w/ ME2, it's what I'll do w/ ME3, and it's what I'll do w/ DA2.

I miss Black Isle >.>

Sure, it can do what it wants. No harm in asking though, is there?

[CShep25]

LiquidGrape wrote...

CShep25 wrote...
Well done, far left political correctness gay group; you're the reason you got ignored in ME2.

Of course! Not only did they want to be catered to; but they wanted to be catered to respectfully!
THE NERVE!

Note: I still have no idea how Zevran was portrayed. I just like to be snarky when given the opportunity!

[slightly off topic rant time]
As much as I am liberal I loathe political correctness where freedom of speech is limited in case you accidently offend someone. Since the Ross and Brand debacle in the UK, the media has been pretty much censored lest they get a caller to Watchdog. To people who get offended when Noel wears a brightly coloured shirt on Deal Or No Deal, my advice is grow a spine and get over it, not call in and complain about it. Same goes for those daytime adverts that promote seeking compensation when you fall over on account of your own clumsiness and see how much cash you can claim for your broken fingernail. And in a similar vein health & safety! Because common sense isn't enough... Plus political correctness ruins classic TV; making it seem mean and degrading due to differing standards. Maybe if the same humour was applied to a modern day show it would be, but you can't suddenly blame a cult TV show made decades ago for being racist or homophobic when it was made in more innocent times. Here's some anti-PC videos to end before I waste more time button mashing:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzpPnQHzUsI

[/slighty off topic rant time]

[Siansonea]

I'm going to buy ME3 regardless. Sure it would be nice to include s/s romance content, but I don't buy the game for the romance content to begin with. I buy it for the story, characters and immersion. Romance is part of that, but not the most important part for me. If they don't include s/s content in ME3 I will be disappointed in them, but I wouldn't necessarily be surprised. I'm hopeful that they are cognizant of the fact that there is a market for the content, but I suspect that the Walmarts of the world exert too much influence to keep the content out of the game.

And I heartily agree that too much political correctness is harmful. There is a fine line between basic respect and a tyranny of forced respect. People should be able to discuss things without feeling like they're walking a tightrope. We should collectively as a species lighten up.

[LiquidGrape]

I said I was being snarky...
But really; I agree that freedom of expression shouldn't be leashed and gagged and pointed at as rude behaviour - but I also think that the common courtesy of recognising context and intent is important.

To (para)quote George Carlin:

"There are no bad words. There are bad people. Bad intentions. But no bad words."

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 04 août 2010 - 04:37 .

[catabuca]

CShep25 wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

CShep25 wrote...
Well done, far left political correctness gay group; you're the reason you got ignored in ME2.

Of course! Not only did they want to be catered to; but they wanted to be catered to respectfully!
THE NERVE!

Note: I still have no idea how Zevran was portrayed. I just like to be snarky when given the opportunity!

[slightly off topic rant time]
As much as I am liberal I loathe political correctness where freedom of speech is limited in case you accidently offend someone. Since the Ross and Brand debacle in the UK, the media has been pretty much censored lest they get a caller to Watchdog. To people who get offended when Noel wears a brightly coloured shirt on Deal Or No Deal, my advice is grow a spine and get over it, not call in and complain about it. Same goes for those daytime adverts that promote seeking compensation when you fall over on account of your own clumsiness and see how much cash you can claim for your broken fingernail. And in a similar vein health & safety! Because common sense isn't enough... Plus political correctness ruins classic TV; making it seem mean and degrading due to differing standards. Maybe if the same humour was applied to a modern day show it would be, but you can't suddenly blame a cult TV show made decades ago for being racist or homophobic when it was made in more innocent times. Here's some anti-PC videos to end before I waste more time button mashing:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzpPnQHzUsI

[/slighty off topic rant time]

As a fellow Brit, I'm with you on the Ross and Brand thing. I fully support no censorship. We also need to be aware of how the term 'PC' as a dirty word has been co-opted by the Daily Mail (et al) brigade as a thinly-veiled way to be allowed to use hate speech. I can't help it, but everytime someone utters, "It's political correctness gorn maaaaaad" I roll my eyes.

It's a balancing act. Defending the freedom to cause offence is part of saying no to censorship. But it isn't a black or white issue. Just as we wouldn't expect a TV series like Love Thy Neighbour to be made today, so too should we expect representations of different sexualities to become more varied over time. Just because you defend the right to cause offence does not mean you should actively continue to cause offence to a minority that is battling against stereotypes the way black people were starting to battle against stereotypes on our TVs 20-30 years ago.

This isn't about never portraying a gay man as promiscuous (I loved Queer as Folk as much as the next person); it's simply about being sensitive to wider issues and debates. As I said, I thought Zev's character was well-rounded, and I thought his backstory 'made up' for any casual stereotypical traits he had. At the same time, I can fully understand why someone who is involved in trying to battle against these kinds of stereotypes might not have been so forgiving. Again, it's a balancing act, for all concerned.

If we look back to history, these kinds of things rarely take an uncomplicated path - the journey to equality is frought with mistakes, steps backwards, unfortunate gaffs ... but one thing we have to remember is that the right to offend comes hand in hand with the right to be offended.

[Tirigon]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I somehow doubt the DA:O fanbase was complaining about Leliana's much deeper and more satisfying lesbian relationship. Zevran was just a 2-dimensional mish-mash of stereotypes. He's effeminate, he's promiscuous, not interested in a serious/committed relationship, and he's ecstatic over shoes! We're ever so grateful.

Compare him to Sky in Jade Empire - devoted husband and father who just happened to have a facet to his sexuality he had not explored, but was willing to with the main character. His sexuality was purely incidental to his character - Zevran's, meanwhile, revolved around it.

Zevran doesn´t like shoes, that´s Leliana....   Also, he IS interested in a serious relationship. After some time he might even refuse to sleep with you unless you say it´s serious.

[PsyrenY]

Tirigon wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

I somehow doubt the DA:O fanbase was complaining about Leliana's much deeper and more satisfying lesbian relationship. Zevran was just a 2-dimensional mish-mash of stereotypes. He's effeminate, he's promiscuous, not interested in a serious/committed relationship, and he's ecstatic over shoes! We're ever so grateful.

Compare him to Sky in Jade Empire - devoted husband and father who just happened to have a facet to his sexuality he had not explored, but was willing to with the main character. His sexuality was purely incidental to his character - Zevran's, meanwhile, revolved around it.

Zevran doesn´t like shoes, that´s Leliana....   Also, he IS interested in a serious relationship. After some time he might even refuse to sleep with you unless you say it´s serious.

They both are actually - recall that Zevran's "supergift" is a pair of soft leather boots.
I admit that I forgot the earring bit (usually I'm either locked-in with him at that point, or not pursuing him at all) - but before he makes that move, you actually lose approval with him if you suggest making things serious.
It seems a bit schizophrenic to me.

[Tirigon]

@ political Correctness:

IT SUCKS.
Seriously, Political Correctness is fail.

And If you try to force me into that kind of sh!t, I´ll keep talking about f*cking ****s just to be anti.

EDIT: I can´t believe Nig ger actually got censored. That´s what I mean with sh!t.  F*cking auto-censorship.

Modifié par Tirigon, 04 août 2010 - 05:18 .

[Tirigon]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Zevran doesn´t like shoes, that´s Leliana....   Also, he IS interested in a serious relationship. After some time he might even refuse to sleep with you unless you say it´s serious.

They both are actually - recall that Zevran's "supergift" is a pair of soft leather boots.

That´s cause they remind him of Antiva, not because he loves shoes. Difference.

[PsyrenY]

Tirigon wrote...

That´s cause they remind him of Antiva, not because he loves shoes. Difference.

This comes back to catabuca's excellent post on sensitivity. There are a variety of leather items they could have chosen for Zevran. I'm not even saying it was intentionally malicious on their part, just a regrettable oversight.

You can put a black character in a game and have him express his love of fried chicken and watermelon without ever meaning anything bad by it. But it will still look bad.

CShep25 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
......
when you have the massive number of things we need to include in an RPG,
from the large to the small, it always adds up to more than we can
possibly include. So where do you cut? We didn't cut the same-sex
romances because we thought they were worth including and added value.
Yet even then there were some comments on these forums about Zevran (for
example) -- that he was either "too gay", "the wrong kind of gay" or
that the fact that Alistair wasn't also included as an option was
discriminatory... at which point you start to wonder why you bothered.
I'm glad that there were a great many people who expressed that they did
value having these options, because I'm afraid that if one's stance is
"all or nothing" on something like this the answer nine times out of ten
is thus "nothing".

Wow. So that's the reason there's
no gay in ME2. I have noticed whiny immature rage and high & mighty
intolerance amongst the credible and reasonable complaints in this
thread, so I can definately see how some very vocal gay activists who
entered Dragon Age scouring for stereotypes rather than stumbling into
some could be heard by the BW staff. We know how the official sites are;
people take comfort in whining about everything and nothing. No wonder
they removed same sex content after that lambasting; if you can't please
everybody, the simplest solution is to leave it out. And then those who
enjoyed Zevran's character suffer in ME2. Well done, far left political
correctness gay group; you're the reason you got ignored in ME2. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png

They got it right before with Sky in Jade Empire. Were those writers laid off or something?
Zevran
is a sex fiend; he sleeps with his victims, his employer, hits on the
party, hits on you, and you don't expect people to be somewhat put off
by that? If he weren't the only gay option in DA:O I wouldn't have given him a second glance.

I
AM grateful he was included, but that's not going to stop me from
pointing out ways to improve the experience. That's the whole point of
feedback.

[Tirigon]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

That´s cause they remind him of Antiva, not because he loves shoes. Difference.

This comes back to catabuca's excellent post on sensitivity. There are a variety of leather items they could have chosen for Zevran. I'm not even saying it was intentionally malicious on their part, just a regrettable oversight.

You can put a black character in a game and have him express his love of fried chicken and watermelon without ever meaning anything bad by it. But it will still look bad.

*not familiar with American Anti-Black jokes*

What is bad about a black person liking fried chicken and watermelon?

[Wittand25]

Optimystic_X wrote...
This comes back to catabuca's excellent post on sensitivity. There are a variety of leather items they could have chosen for Zevran. I'm not even saying it was intentionally malicious on their part, just a regrettable oversight.

You can put a black character in a game and have him express his love of fried chicken and watermelon without ever meaning anything bad by it. But it will still look bad.

They got it right before with Sky in Jade Empire. Were those writers laid off or something?
Zevran
is a sex fiend; he sleeps with his victims, his employer, hits on the
party, hits on you, and you don't expect people to be somewhat put off
by that? If he weren't the only gay option in DA:O I wouldn't have given him a second glance.

I
AM grateful he was included, but that's not going to stop me from
pointing out ways to improve the experience. That's the whole point of
feedback.

I did not now that practical brown boots are a gay fetish, I could understand if they were the shiny black Tom-of-Finland style thing, but they are rather practical armour. And the cloves are important to him because they remind him of his childhood before the crows, so again no fetish unless you desperately want to see one.
He uses sex as weapon and as armour likewise yes, but both Lelianna and Morrigan do the same one way or another so again I cannot see why this is offensive in his case and not in theirs.
Oh and by the way Sky is generally considered more offensive amongst gays, because the Sky/male romance scene faded to black before the kiss and not after it like the Sky/female scene. I know (and usually explain, when the topic comes up) that this is because the romance was added late and the scene would cause serious clipping without the fade to black but it is still brought up as example of discrimination.

[catabuca]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I
AM grateful he was included, but that's not going to stop me from
pointing out ways to improve the experience. That's the whole point of
feedback.

This is a great point.

When Sidney Poitier started being cast people were happy that a black man was finally getting leading roles. It's still great he was - it opened the way for countless black actors, and has had an extremely positive infuence. However, the positive aspects of it do not preclude a critique of the types of roles he was given. We can look back now and with hindsight see things in some of those roles that today we view as unhelpful - servility, generally being unthreatening, etc. That's not to say that is the *only* way of reading his roles, nor is it to say he should not have been offered those roles in the first place. It merely acknowledges that these things are multi-faceted, and there isn't only 'good that it's included' or 'bad that it's represented in that way' - both can exist at once. Recognising that is how we keep moving forward.

[PsyrenY]

Note: I'm unaware of why the BBCode is distorting my posts with strange line-breaks.

Tirigon wrote...

*not familiar with American Anti-Black jokes*

What is bad about a black person liking fried chicken and watermelon?

Nothing at all. It's just a stereotype.
Like gay men liking shoes, being effeminate, and being promiscuous.
There is nothing inherently wrong with any of those things; they are just overused conventions in most media.

Wittand25 wrote...

He uses sex as weapon and as armour likewise yes, but both Lelianna and Morrigan do the same one way or another so again I cannot see why this is offensive in his case and not in theirs.

I agree that there is a double standard here, and one that needs to end. To understand how it came about, one has to look at history. Women using sexuality as a weapon, to borrow your phrasing, is opposing a stereotype, rather than furthering one. It was not too long ago (1950s) that women in media were encouraged to be prudish and subservient - an attitude upheld in-game by the Chantry, judging from Lily and Leliana's tales. Leliana and Morrigan's attitudes are therefore quite strongly bucking that trend.

But the promiscuous gay has been part of media since time immemorial. Having sidestepped this trope with Sky, they plunged headlong into it with Zevran, and it was a little disappointing. I acknowledge that they may have meant no harm at all by it, but it remains disquieting.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 04 août 2010 - 05:57 .

[Nordic Einar]

Can we *not* use spacing to avoid the word filter and post racist epithets in childish anti-establishment outbursts? That'd be fantastic, and probably work towards keeping this on topic and not locked. Thanks.



I didn't hate Zevran; I very much appreciated his existence (as well as several other chances for casual homosexuality - the human noble beginning, for instance.). However, I did roll my eyes every time he said something in that eurotrash swarthy voice, but w/e. He was in the game, and that's something. I'd sure like a more... appealing S/S option, but I'm content with Zevran.



However, I can understand why many didn't like him. He seemed to be what Bioware thought "the gays" would want, not... just a character, who happened to be gay. Leliana, I think, was much more believable a character.

[Tirigon]

Nordic Einar wrote...

I didn't hate Zevran; I very much appreciated his existence (as well as several other chances for casual homosexuality - the human noble beginning, for instance.). However, I did roll my eyes every time he said something in that eurotrash swarthy voice, but w/e. He was in the game, and that's something. I'd sure like a more... appealing S/S option, but I'm content with Zevran.

However, I can understand why many didn't like him. He seemed to be what Bioware thought "the gays" would want, not... just a character, who happened to be gay. Leliana, I think, was much more believable a character.

I do not understand why Zevran is viewed thus negatively.
Personally I found him one of the funniest and best characters in the game.
Really, the only bad thing about Zevran are his terrible skills that make him a (gameplay-wise) useless partymember unless you use respec mod.

[Siansonea]

Tirigon wrote...

@ political Correctness:

IT SUCKS.
Seriously, Political Correctness is fail.

And If you try to force me into that kind of sh!t, I´ll keep talking about f*cking ****s just to be anti.

EDIT: I can´t believe Nig ger actually got censored. That´s what I mean with sh!t.  F*cking auto-censorship.

And you wonder why I make comments about today's youth?

This post demonstrates an irrational attitude, and an extreme insensitivity that goes beyond political correctness. Some words should not be used, period. They exist only to disparage a person or group. That's why they fall under the category of Hate Speech. But you would use such words simply to demonstrate your reactionary attitude toward a system you feel is unfair. I would say that is an inappropriate response, a desire to be iconoclastic for its own sake.

To be fair I have seen equally irrational responses from persons my own age and older. It just seems more prevalent among younger people.

[Tirigon]

Siansonea II wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

@ political Correctness:

IT SUCKS.
Seriously, Political Correctness is fail.

And If you try to force me into that kind of sh!t, I´ll keep talking about f*cking ****s just to be anti.

EDIT: I can´t believe Nig ger actually got censored. That´s what I mean with sh!t.  F*cking auto-censorship.

And you wonder why I make comments about today's youth?

This post demonstrates an irrational attitude, and an extreme insensitivity that goes beyond political correctness. Some words should not be used, period. They exist only to disparage a person or group. That's why they fall under the category of Hate Speech. But you would use such words simply to demonstrate your reactionary attitude toward a system you feel is unfair. I would say that is an inappropriate response, a desire to be iconoclastic for its own sake.

To be fair I have seen equally irrational responses from persons my own age and older. It just seems more prevalent among younger people.

There are no words that are offensive in itself, only the way people use it may be offensive.

N!gger is a great example: While it is an insult when used by whites it is frequently used among blacks as a word for one´s friends and does not carry an insult.

Political Correctnes, imo, furthers insulting meanings and makes it hard or impossible to use some words without insulting someone.

If everyone speaks how he likes it is much easier not to insult someone.

[PsyrenY]

Nordic Einar wrote...



I didn't hate Zevran; I very much appreciated his existence (as well as several other chances for casual homosexuality - the human noble beginning, for instance.). However, I did roll my eyes every time he said something in that eurotrash swarthy voice, but w/e. He was in the game, and that's something. I'd sure like a more... appealing S/S option, but I'm content with Zevran.



However, I can understand why many didn't like him. He seemed to be what Bioware thought "the gays" would want, not... just a character, who happened to be gay. Leliana, I think, was much more believable a character.

This is precisely what I was getting at, thank you.



RE: Political Correctness - that is a separate debate, and one which has no bearing in either ME or DA:O to boot.

[Siansonea]

Tirigon wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
snipped

snipped

There are no words that are offensive in itself, only the way people use it may be offensive.

N!gger is a great example: While it is an insult when used by whites it is frequently used among blacks as a word for one´s friends and does not carry an insult.

Political Correctnes, imo, furthers insulting meanings and makes it hard or impossible to use some words without insulting someone.

If everyone speaks how he likes it is much easier not to insult someone.

Regardless, there is no denying that some words have to be used VERY carefully. You clearly wish to use such words carelessly. Regardless of whether you agree with political correctness or not, surely you recognize that you can't use these words with impunity. Yet you say you would use them carelessly simply to demonstrate a point. That course of action does not demonstrate a great deal of maturity. That is all I am saying.

And thread lockdown in one...two...three...

[Wittand25]

Back to the topic of gays in space please everyone.

If there is ever a gay character in the ME franchise I think that we would all agree that he should be a more serious, less flirty character Kaidan from ME1 or Hendel from the second book.

I was thinking about the coming DLC and was thinking, if Bioware makes it possible to romance Liara in the DLC, even if you did not romance her in ME1, would you consider it a good idea if a Virmire survivor DLC comes out that does the same ( of course regardless of gender ) ?