9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Judging by the effect the Great Armada of Talimancers has had on ME2, it is my hope that the Fight For The Love group actually shows BioWare that yes, there is a market for sensitively portrayed same-sex romantic content. BTW, I just realized I had never joined the group, so I just remedied that.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 11 août 2010 - 04:32 .

[Cootie]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Cootie wrote...

Semi-off-topic, regarding those pictures, I got a formal-looking e-mail from BioWare, letting me know how grateful they are that I reported that post and it made me feel so warm inside.
Then I finally realised it's an automatic message and then I felt miserable and had loads of ice-cream in the bathroom.
Thank you, Bioware.


*sob*

Worse actually - it's from EA. Enjoy your ice cream.

o__o


o__o


o__o


*wobbles lip*


Speaking of ice-cream and bathrooms, where would we put a solid new crew member on the Normandy Mark II?

[Onyx Jaguar]

the cafeteria

[Wittand25]

Cootie wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Cootie wrote...

Semi-off-topic, regarding those pictures, I got a formal-looking e-mail from BioWare, letting me know how grateful they are that I reported that post and it made me feel so warm inside.
Then I finally realised it's an automatic message and then I felt miserable and had loads of ice-cream in the bathroom.
Thank you, Bioware.


*sob*

Worse actually - it's from EA. Enjoy your ice cream.

o__o


o__o


o__o


*wobbles lip*


Speaking of ice-cream and bathrooms, where would we put a solid new crew member on the Normandy Mark II?

Using the report button does nothing but generate the automatic email response. If you want recognition for your effort to keep the forum clean it is better to just pm a moderator. Not only are the offending posts removed rather fast but you might also get a short personal thank you note for it (I have two by Mr. Woo).

On where to put new crew members, as long as the m/m option does not get put in the bathroom for  male crew-members I don't care even if he would to have share rooms with another crew mate.

[Poaches]

didn't they already say no new crew members?

Maybe its a good idea to actually define what is a "sensitively portrayed same-sex romantic content" cause I'll be damned if they put in a flaming street walking twinky with a fetish for bondage gear. I don't think it has been discussed. Despite knowingly there's all kinds of people.

You know, the places where rainbow barf and fabulous prose isn't needed.

Modifié par Poaches, 11 août 2010 - 06:36 .

[Tirigon]

Cootie wrote...


Speaking of ice-cream and bathrooms, where would we put a solid new crew member on the Normandy Mark II?

In Shepard´s bathroom.


Or to whereever the ice-cream is storedB)

[ElitePinecone]

Tirigon wrote...

Cootie wrote...


Speaking of ice-cream and bathrooms, where would we put a solid new crew member on the Normandy Mark II?

In Shepard´s bathroom.


Or to whereever the ice-cream is storedB)

Shepard's bathroom would make for... quite the surprise

Poaches wrote...

didn't they already say no new crew members?

I believe this is the case - which means it's likely we won't get any further opportunities for S/S romances until ME3 (or an ME2 expansion, in the unlikely case that one is being considered). 

[catabuca]

This is slightly off-topic, but I wasn't sure where else to put it (I guess in the disappointment thread maybe?), but I realised that a lot of people's anger at the small role played by their ME1 LI in ME2 might have been mitigated somewhat if the picture of them in your cabin was somehow interactive.

My thought was that instead of just being able to see it on your desk you could pick it up, and when you did you got a kind of flashback montage of key ME1 moments with that LI, like a glimpse of conversation, a shot of you fighting side-by-side, culminating in a short bit of the love scene, maybe with some sweet music over the top. If you'd have been able to access that 'memory' each time you picked it up it might have seemed like less of a cop out, and a thoughtful nod to the shippers out there.

[Siansonea]

That's a cool idea, Catabuca. I'm hoping that Virmire Survivor gets more face time in ME3, and I'm pretty sure they will. At least Liara will be featured in the upcoming DLC.

I think a sensitively portrayed gay or bisexual character is pretty easy to achieve actually. Make an interesting character with a good backstory, hire a good voice actor to speak the lines, create an attractive digital character in the game, and presto! Interesting character who happens to be gay/bisexual.

The key is to not make the character all about being gay/bisexual or all about sex in general. It's 2185 (or later inME3), and being gay is just an aspect of a person's personality, it is not the linchpin of their identity or the only relevant thing to know about them. The way I see it, knowing whether a person is gay/bisexual/heterosexual is significant only insofar as it helps you know what gender of persons to introduce to them as romantic prospects, or to determine whether you yourself are a potential romantic prospect. Outside of the area of romance, it simply doesn't matter.

[shootist70]

Meta Ray Mek wrote...


The comment itself made me laugh, but it's really sad at the same time because I distinctly get the impression that some people just can't accept a M!Shepard who's gay (or bisexual). And that's fairly depressing if you ask me. (FWIW, I just said "Because I like my Shepard with Mordin...?")

Yeah, but I wouldn't worry about it. You won't find objectivity 100% of the time, and people won't always stick to just judging the work on its own merits. Personal preference will sometimes creep in.
 
It's judgement on a wider scope that concerns me more. I find that being forced/encouraged to remove gay romantic themes from mature rated works, or avoiding them altogether, (as happened in ME1 and 2) to be a form of homophobia. Imagine trying that sort of censorship with written fiction? It'd be like poking your sensitive bits into a hornet's nest.

Modifié par shootist70, 11 août 2010 - 10:35 .

[JockBuster]

I think that BW has left the door open for s/s in ME3 with either Kaidan or Ashley. As MaleShelp I save Kaidan on Virmire every time (usually @ the bomb, and get really emotional), there is the DEbrief (oops) after where Kaidan says its his fault & MaleShep so NO, it was my choice to save YOU. Importing those saves into ME3, when the SR1 blows up, Shep says leave, Kaidan responds "Shepard, I'm NOT leaving, Joker..." (NOT commander nor yes sir), if you do a neutral to I gave you an order, he begrudgingly agrees to abandon Shepard and then says [sadly!] "commander." Then when they reunite on Horizon, "I would have followed YOU anywhere..." Again the data points already exist in the save files, and obviously someone who is NOT interested in a s/s LI, it will not show up. THE same way I ignore  Miranda et al. I started a FemShep just to see how it went Jacob, oh boy! FemShep wants to strip him down and do him in the Armory, and that was only the FIRST conversation! Deleted that game.
Then there is the issue of Kaidan's picture on Anderson's desk, it does not turn to Ashley if Kaidan dies, which leaves open the question? What is the relationship between Anderson & Kaidan, other than being Alliance Marines serving on the SR1?

Modifié par JockBuster, 12 août 2010 - 01:01 .

[Poaches]

Meta Ray Mek wrote...

True. That kind of censorship in general greatly bothers me, especially complete avoidance. Asari aside, it strikes me as odd that there really aren't even any implied same-sex pairings amongst the NPCs in both ME games. At least in Dragon Age, you had Wade and Herrel and Branka and Hespith (to use varying examples). =/

I think the closest ME2 came to any sort of same-sex acknowledgment was Mordin's 'If intended to try human' line that he says to M!Shepard (he also says it to F!Shepard, but my point remains) but I think that one is largely dependent on personal interpretation.

I don't think its odd; Dragon Age doesn't seem like the good example people like to tote it as. Besides Leliana (go figure), all other examples form dysfunctional caricatures; they might as well be on a blackface exploitation comedy. They all have some brand kind of "crazy" about them and not in a good way.

On the other hand, ME2 Li's are setup so systematically you can swear they pulled it out of a focus group study from marketing. They just line up oh so perfectly; you got:

Garrus / Tali : "Cute, Inexperienced, insecure, exotic, perfect for kiddies and control freaks."
Jacob / Miranda : "Poster Boy/Girl, presented as physically attractive, sexually assertive; because you need someone to plow."
Thane / Jack : "Baggage, emotionally scarred, dangerous, your want to bring meaning into someone's otherwise tortured existence? here."
Mordin / Samara : "Mature, disciplined, experienced, and completely off limits"
Morinth : "revenge of the twilight fans."

And the great part is its assume you want to have sex with them. At least that's what youtube taught me. Its kinda like that story with activision putting a ban on female protagonists because focus groups said so. Maybe they have a focus group to decide romances now.

Modifié par Poaches, 12 août 2010 - 02:52 .

[PsyrenY]

JockBuster wrote...

I think that BW has left the door open for s/s in ME3 with either Kaidan or Ashley. As MaleShelp I save Kaidan on Virmire every time (usually @ the bomb, and get really emotional), there is the DEbrief (oops) after where Kaidan says its his fault & MaleShep so NO, it was my choice to save YOU. Importing those saves into ME3, when the SR1 blows up, Shep says leave, Kaidan responds "Shepard, I'm NOT leaving, Joker..." (NOT commander nor yes sir), if you do a neutral to I gave you an order, he begrudgingly agrees to abandon Shepard and then says [sadly!] "commander." Then when they reunite on Horizon, "I would have followed YOU anywhere..." Again the data points already exist in the save files, and obviously someone who is NOT interested in a s/s LI, it will not show up. THE same way I ignore  Miranda et al. I started a FemShep just to see how it went Jacob, oh boy! FemShep wants to strip him down and do him in the Armory, and that was only the FIRST conversation! Deleted that game.
Then there is the issue of Kaidan's picture on Anderson's desk, it does not turn to Ashley if Kaidan dies, which leaves open the question? What is the relationship between Anderson & Kaidan, other than being Alliance Marines serving on the SR1?

You can also, as a male shepard, get questioned about your reunion with Kaiden on Horizon by Kelly. One of the responses (which I always take) is "We've been through a lot together. I wish I'd had more time with him." Very wistful, very emotional, very unrequited.

I'm also generally "worried about Garrus" when she asks that question as well, after barely saving Archangel.

[ashz22]

I'm ok with this it isn't like you have to choose to do it but I support it as an option.

[ElitePinecone]

Optimystic_X wrote...

You can also, as a male shepard, get questioned about your reunion with Kaiden on Horizon by Kelly. One of the responses (which I always take) is "We've been through a lot together. I wish I'd had more time with him." Very wistful, very emotional, very unrequited.

I always thought this was a strange response considering MShep's inability to romance Kaidan. I can sort of see how this line could work in a friendship sense, but the way it's said suggests something else. That conversation with Kelly made me very wistful as well - if only because the dialogue required seemed to be there :/

[catabuca]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

You can also, as a male shepard, get questioned about your reunion with Kaiden on Horizon by Kelly. One of the responses (which I always take) is "We've been through a lot together. I wish I'd had more time with him." Very wistful, very emotional, very unrequited.

I always thought this was a strange response considering MShep's inability to romance Kaidan. I can sort of see how this line could work in a friendship sense, but the way it's said suggests something else. That conversation with Kelly made me very wistful as well - if only because the dialogue required seemed to be there :/

I always assumed it was a throwback to when that content was originally planned, and they just kept it in because it can be interpreted as platonic or romantic. Easier than writing a couple of new lines and getting it re-voiced.

[shootist70]

catabuca wrote...

I always assumed it was a throwback to when that content was originally planned, and they just kept it in because it can be interpreted as platonic or romantic. Easier than writing a couple of new lines and getting it re-voiced.

Maybe. According to Mass Effect wiki there are audio files still in the game that are from a same-sex romance with either Kaiden or Ashley. It's possible that the devs only disabled the stuff that was directly related to the romance storyline.

Or maybe they are leaving the door open for it in ME3.

Modifié par shootist70, 12 août 2010 - 11:46 .

[catabuca]

shootist70 wrote...

catabuca wrote...

I always assumed it was a throwback to when that content was originally planned, and they just kept it in because it can be interpreted as platonic or romantic. Easier than writing a couple of new lines and getting it re-voiced.

Maybe. According to Mass Effect wiki there are audio files still in the game that are from a same-sex romance with either Kaiden or Ashley. It's possible that the devs only disabled the stuff that was directly related to the romance storyline.

Or maybe they are leaving the door open for it in ME3.

You know what'll get everyone frothing at the mouth even more? If there is no s/s content with those characters in ME3 but the audio files ARE there just as in ME1 & 2. To plan it, write it, record some of it, animate some of it, and NOT include it AGAIN ...

[ElitePinecone]

catabuca wrote...

shootist70 wrote...

catabuca wrote...

I always assumed it was a throwback to when that content was originally planned, and they just kept it in because it can be interpreted as platonic or romantic. Easier than writing a couple of new lines and getting it re-voiced.

Maybe. According to Mass Effect wiki there are audio files still in the game that are from a same-sex romance with either Kaiden or Ashley. It's possible that the devs only disabled the stuff that was directly related to the romance storyline.

Or maybe they are leaving the door open for it in ME3.

You know what'll get everyone frothing at the mouth even more? If there is no s/s content with those characters in ME3 but the audio files ARE there just as in ME1 & 2. To plan it, write it, record some of it, animate some of it, and NOT include it AGAIN ...

The first Mass Effect's audio files in question are at the beginning of this thread, scroll down a little from this link: http://social.biowar...83314/1#2883323

That being said, I doubt Bioware would waver as much in ME3 as they seem to have done in ME/ME2, in terms of half-implementing, then removing, s/s romances. It was clearly intended for ME (and even developed fairly fully!) and strongly hinted at in ME2 (and we've seen evidence of devs being pressured to abandon it) - ME3 is likely to either include or exclude them entirely. I can't see Bioware half-developing/removing s/s romances for a third game this late in the series.

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 12 août 2010 - 12:18 .

[PsyrenY]

There definitely are m/m romance audio files in ME1. See here:







Of note is Mark Meer delivering the "Kaidan, I don't believe you've had the pleasure of serving under me" and "Bunk here tonight Kaidan. With me." lines.

[shootist70]

ElitePinecone wrote...

 It was clearly intended for ME (and even developed fairly fully!) and strongly hinted at in ME2 (and we've seen evidence of devs being pressured to abandon it) - ME3 is likely to either include or exclude them entirely. 

This is what bothers me most. Same-sex romances are NOT stepping beyond what is legally acceptable even for fairly low age-ratings - if the 'sex scenes' are comparable to those in ME2, that is. Therefore putting pressure on to exclude it is little more than homophobia, and could be viewed as more immoral than allowing it in the first place.

Any artist shouldn't bow to this sort of biased pressure if they're doing nothing wrong (by legal definition), and should strive to retain creative integrity. The genre could mature into a real expressive creative medium if devs keep pushing at those arbitrary boundaries, and not give in to knee-jerk moralists.

Modifié par shootist70, 12 août 2010 - 01:43 .

[ShadoX_LV]

I didn't read through the first posts simply because didn't feel like doing it, but despite that.. I support the idea a lot.. mostly after hearing about the options in DA:O. I don't see any reason not to be able to romance with the same sex.

[Tirigon]

shootist70 wrote...

Any artist shouldn't bow to this sort of biased pressure if they're doing nothing wrong (by legal definition), and should strive to retain creative integrity. The genre could mature into a real expressive creative medium if devs keep pushing at those arbitrary boundaries, and not give in to knee-jerk moralists.

The problem is that computer and console games are only secondary art, if at all. Primarily they are a way to make tons of money, and in money-making, old-fashioned works best, much better than pushing boundaries. (As the success of StarCraft 2 atm proves once again, and as CoD proves.)