9243 réponses à ce sujet

[shootist70]

Tirigon wrote...

shootist70 wrote...

Any artist shouldn't bow to this sort of biased pressure if they're doing nothing wrong (by legal definition), and should strive to retain creative integrity. The genre could mature into a real expressive creative medium if devs keep pushing at those arbitrary boundaries, and not give in to knee-jerk moralists.

The problem is that computer and console games are only secondary art, if at all. Primarily they are a way to make tons of money, and in money-making, old-fashioned works best, much better than pushing boundaries. (As the success of StarCraft 2 atm proves once again, and as CoD proves.)

True, to an extent. Most creative industries are dominated by a corporate mindset, and publishers will generally impress their demands upon creators, but it's not a situation that any creator should simply settle for.  It's giving in to that corporate approach that limits 'games' to being secondary art in the first place.

Modifié par shootist70, 13 août 2010 - 11:25 .

[catabuca]

Gaider posted a link to an article (that I think I c&p'd earlier in this thread) that talks about the difficult balancing act of going 'mainstream' to make money and survive, or staying 'niche' and possibly pushing yourself out of the market because you just can't afford to make the games you want anymore.

It applies more to the whole 'niche rpg/mainstream shooter' argument that rages around though, because I really don't believe that adding s/s relationships to a game that already includes diverse romance options makes it more niche or less mainstream - it takes a game that is what it is and adds one more option, one more customisation. It takes nothing away.

[ElitePinecone]

catabuca wrote...

Gaider posted a link to an article (that I think I c&p'd earlier in this thread) that talks about the difficult balancing act of going 'mainstream' to make money and survive, or staying 'niche' and possibly pushing yourself out of the market because you just can't afford to make the games you want anymore.

It applies more to the whole 'niche rpg/mainstream shooter' argument that rages around though, because I really don't believe that adding s/s relationships to a game that already includes diverse romance options makes it more niche or less mainstream - it takes a game that is what it is and adds one more option, one more customisation. It takes nothing away.

This is an important and correct point - but I don't think such a thoughtful approach was taken  when same-sex romances were withheld or cut from development. To certain people, obviously, same-sex content wasn't seen (as you suggest rightly) as creating options or customisation.

It was seen as fundamentally incompatible with what Hudson memorably likened to a "PG-13 action movie" (with torture, explosions and genocide, obviously). To a risk-averse mindset, including (male, not female) homosexuality definitely pushes it out of the mainstream and into a niche area. Especially, this mindset argues, with a target audience of the kind Bioware is seeking. Obviously this is a ludicrous and unfortunate position - and often plainly wrong. The contradictory waffle that Hudson and Muzyka proffered when confronted with the question makes me think they realise the flimsiness of this argument.

But the fact remains that someone at Bioware plainly believes in the argument you outlined regarding the economics of niche vs mainstream content; and this is influencing the development of their games. Nothing I've seen has suggested otherwise.

[shootist70]

catabuca wrote...

It applies more to the whole 'niche rpg/mainstream shooter' argument that rages around though, because I really don't believe that adding s/s relationships to a game that already includes diverse romance options makes it more niche or less mainstream - it takes a game that is what it is and adds one more option, one more customisation. It takes nothing away.

Agreed. Including s/s romance in addition should widen the target demographic, not narrow it. Bioware would have been going for a niche market if they'd developed Mass Effect - The Big Gay Space Opera, but it's a matter of press perception, and that's exactly how the press will polarise it even if the artists were actually reaching for diversity. The problem here is those who influence the general definition of 'mainstream'. The mainstream press tend to police who gets to join their club, and they generally represent morally conservative bastions who have a dated and narrow view of 'video gaming.'

So who challenges that? I can kind of sympathise with a commercial venture that's gambling with millions in investor's cash not wanting to take it on, but I can't really agree with it.

Modifié par shootist70, 13 août 2010 - 02:29 .

[catabuca]

shootist70 wrote...

catabuca wrote...

It applies more to the whole 'niche rpg/mainstream shooter' argument that rages around though, because I really don't believe that adding s/s relationships to a game that already includes diverse romance options makes it more niche or less mainstream - it takes a game that is what it is and adds one more option, one more customisation. It takes nothing away.

Agreed. Including s/s romance in addition should widen the target demographic, not narrow it. Bioware would have been going for a niche market if they'd developed Mass Effect - The Big Gay Space Opera, but it's a matter of press perception, and that's exactly how the press will polarise it even if the artists were actually reaching for diversity. The problem here is those who influence the general definition of 'mainstream'. The mainstream press tend to police who gets to join their club, and they generally represent morally conservative bastions who have a dated and narrow view of 'video gaming.'

So who challenges that? I can kind of sympathise with a commercial venture that's gambling with millions in investor's cash not wanting to take it on, but I can't really agree with it.

I think we're getting to the crux of it right here. I broadly agree with everything you've said. Of course, one of the ways this definition of 'mainstream' (or 'normal' - as is more often mentioned in debates around gender and sexuality) can be changed, altered or even more specifically challenged is by making such content, and including it without a fanfare, as just another option in a panoply of other options. Sure, the first few times gay options appear in games (or wherever) a few people comment on it, a few people are outraged, a few people applaud it, most people don't comment at at all. After a while, this content appears more regularly and, because it's becoming the 'norm' and being seem more widely, less people comment on it, less are outraged, and it's seen as no different than having m/f content. You don't jump from A-Z, you have to go via B, C etc first. But stopping at A because some people will be outraged at B or C means you'll never get to Z. And that would be pretty crap.

[ElitePinecone]

catabuca wrote...

And that would be pretty crap.

Wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. 

Everything needs to begin somewhere.

[shootist70]

catabuca wrote...

 You don't jump from A-Z, you have to go via B, C etc first. But stopping at A because some people will be outraged at B or C means you'll never get to Z. And that would be pretty crap.

Yep, and it's interesting because historically speaking it's a tried and tested approach. Under even harsher moral conditions, like victorian England, these themes would sneak in under the radar by way of metaphor - to condition the audience by way of evolution, not revolution.

[Tirigon]

shootist70 wrote...

catabuca wrote...

 You don't jump from A-Z, you have to go via B, C etc first. But stopping at A because some people will be outraged at B or C means you'll never get to Z. And that would be pretty crap.

Yep, and it's interesting because historically speaking it's a tried and tested approach. Under even harsher moral conditions, like victorian England, these themes would sneak in under the radar by way of metaphor - to condition the audience by way of evolution, not revolution.

Sadly, the ®evolutioners back then where actually artists who were usually rich to start with and could afford to care not at all about their audience; the BioWare people are just employees of a company.

[Poaches]

Ugh, Mass Effect is not art. Its neither profound nor inspiring in its message. "Visual Art" and "Cinematic Story Telling" maybe.

Its better to argue ME as a linear experience because of its tendency to pull a "Moral Hand-Holding", "Predefined Protagonist" on the player; Betraying the role-playing experience overall.

And trying to BS the gameplay experience by withholding s/s is only making the story more bland; moving towards an FPS style ultra-masculine combat exhibition while hamfisting on the story and gameplay.

Modifié par Poaches, 14 août 2010 - 05:50 .

[London]

I wouldn't really mind them allowing Shepard to be Bi in ME3. I mean, say you were female Shephard and romanced Kaiden, but then saved Ashley. Nothing really happens in ME2. Finally in ME3 it's revealed that Shephard had feelings for Ashley she was afraid to act on. So...never too late lol. It'd be itneresting character development. I think Ashley and Kaiden were originally written as bi or something anyway.



If they keep Shepard straight that's fine too. Or just let Shepard try to romance any of the new romance options, with only some of them being interested based on gender. I'm always curious to see the main character actually rejected.

[ArchDemonXIII]

 I'm totally fine with same sex relationships as long as only specific characters present the option. While Shepard's  preference may be set by the player, the NPC's should retain a bit of their own character. Liara has an in game reason to be bi. Maybe another crewmate could be too, maybe another that's only open to same sex coupling, but the entire pool of LI's being open to either sex seems... strained.

That being said if they made all the LI's romanceable for either gender I would totally do one playthrough with shep as a rabidly polyamorous pansexual who will nail anything wth a pulse.

[catabuca]

ArchDemonXIII wrote...

 I'm totally fine with same sex relationships as long as only specific characters present the option. While Shepard's  preference may be set by the player, the NPC's should retain a bit of their own character. Liara has an in game reason to be bi. Maybe another crewmate could be too, maybe another that's only open to same sex coupling, but the entire pool of LI's being open to either sex seems... strained.

That being said if they made all the LI's romanceable for either gender I would totally do one playthrough with shep as a rabidly polyamorous pansexual who will nail anything wth a pulse.

I support rabidly polyamorous pansexual Shep for ME3.

[lewis_1306]

Poaches wrote...

Ugh, Mass Effect is not art. Its neither profound nor inspiring in its message. "Visual Art" and "Cinematic Story Telling" maybe.

Its better to argue ME as a linear experience because of its tendency to pull a "Moral Hand-Holding", "Predefined Protagonist" on the player; Betraying the role-playing experience overall.

And trying to BS the gameplay experience by withholding s/s is only making the story more bland; moving towards an FPS style ultra-masculine combat exhibition while hamfisting on the story and gameplay.

I completely disagree with everything that you just said.

Most people will agree that a movie is art.
Visual art and graphic design = Art
Cinematic story telling = Art

If all of these things are art then a video game like Mass Effect is definitely art.

The script in Mass Effect compares favorably to that of almost any critically acclaimed action movie. Anyone who says that Mass Effect is not art obviously isn't concidering how much artistic talent and skill went into the development of the game.

Witholding s/s romance is not BSing the story...
Withholding s/s doesn't make the story more bland it just makes it less gay.

(for the record, I don't have anything against homosexuals or s/s romance in video games... I just felt the need to comment on Poaches' argument)

[LiquidGrape]

catabuca wrote...

ArchDemonXIII wrote...

 I'm totally fine with same sex relationships as long as only specific characters present the option. While Shepard's  preference may be set by the player, the NPC's should retain a bit of their own character. Liara has an in game reason to be bi. Maybe another crewmate could be too, maybe another that's only open to same sex coupling, but the entire pool of LI's being open to either sex seems... strained.

That being said if they made all the LI's romanceable for either gender I would totally do one playthrough with shep as a rabidly polyamorous pansexual who will nail anything wth a pulse.

I support rabidly polyamorous pansexual Shep for ME3.

You reading this Bioware?
Make it happen. We need some more fun in this franchise.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 14 août 2010 - 01:05 .

[Cootie]

LiquidGrape wrote...

catabuca wrote...

ArchDemonXIII wrote...

 I'm totally fine with same sex relationships as long as only specific characters present the option. While Shepard's  preference may be set by the player, the NPC's should retain a bit of their own character. Liara has an in game reason to be bi. Maybe another crewmate could be too, maybe another that's only open to same sex coupling, but the entire pool of LI's being open to either sex seems... strained.

That being said if they made all the LI's romanceable for either gender I would totally do one playthrough with shep as a rabidly polyamorous pansexual who will nail anything wth a pulse.

I support rabidly polyamorous pansexual Shep for ME3.

You reading this Bioware?
Make it happen. We need some more fun in this franchise.

See?
Options. We want them.

[ElitePinecone]

Cootie wrote...

See?
Options. We want them.

All of them. Simultaneously.

I support rabidly polyamorous pansexual Shep for ME3.

[Tirigon]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Cootie wrote...

See?
Options. We want them.

All of them. Simultaneously.

I support rabidly polyamorous pansexual Shep for ME3.

Indeed. What is wrong with being polyamorous? It´s what most people in my age (18) are.....

[Cootie]

Now, finally I see our ideas are getting somewhere.

[shootist70]

Poaches wrote...

Ugh, Mass Effect is not art. Its neither profound nor inspiring in its message. "Visual Art" and "Cinematic Story Telling" maybe.

I'm not even sure why 'profound' or 'inspiring' even enter into this, or why any medium that wanted to represent diversity would have to be percieved as such. What decade is this coming from?  We could represent diversity  in a pamphlet on plumbing techniques if we wanted to.

[shootist70]

Tirigon wrote...

Sadly, the ®evolutioners back then where actually artists who were usually rich to start with and could afford to care not at all about their audience; the BioWare people are just employees of a company.

Hmm..you're making a flawed assumption that those artists didn't care about their audience, and then making another flawed assumption that it has relevance, and then topping it off with another flawed assumption that nobody at Bioware is an 'artist.' Don't think they'd be too happy about that.

Tirigon wrote...


Indeed. What is wrong with being polyamorous? It´s what most people in my age (18) are.....

I can agree with this, though. Being attracted to people, not simply to gender, is something I could envisage in our society's future, so it'd certainly fit into any space opera/speculative fiction neatly. Hell, it's not just the future, some pre christian morality societies tended to blur the lines quite frequently and as a matter of course.

At one point in ME1 Ash talks about her religious faith as if its an oddity in human society, so gender roles as a legacy of religious morality would probably be a bit of a throwback to them.

Modifié par shootist70, 14 août 2010 - 03:53 .

[shootist70]

double post.

Modifié par shootist70, 14 août 2010 - 03:54 .

[Poaches]

Veering offtopic, but, if one's going to insist art is purely subjective, then either; everything is art, or nothing is art. And we'll all be posers grasping at the unattainable. So what elevates Mass Effect to be art? mh?



Then again, there's no point to arguing with a generation of Shepard Fairey-s' and Damien Hirst-s'; you know, "tampon-in-a-teacup" 'n' all.



Back on topic;



The future speculation of humanity is subjective too... like the guy who insisted homosexuality was "cured" by then. Ash's viewpoint may only apply to spacers. While it has been suggested human religion has spread to other species... for some reason.

[shootist70]

Poaches wrote...

The future speculation of humanity is subjective too... like the guy who insisted homosexuality was "cured" by then. Ash's viewpoint may only apply to spacers. While it has been suggested human religion has spread to other species... for some reason.

Of course it's subjective, that's exactly why there's freedom in it and why there's a whole speculative fiction sub-genre based on it.

Modifié par shootist70, 14 août 2010 - 06:36 .

[Cootie]

shootist70 wrote...

double post.

O__O

So intense.
What does it mean?

Also, on topic: Nevermind whether it is an artform or not. Give or take nothing and you'll never evolve, whether you're an art or a gaming platform.
Imagine if no one had pushed for 3D-graphics and we'd been stuck playing the same ol' Pong. There's a large portion of people willing to pay good money for this type of content, so there's obviously a market for it, as there was for 3D-graphics.

I, for one, want my main character to be a raging homosexual for once. Please, Bioware, gimme that opportunity. Else I'll be stuck playing the same old generic good guy through every RPG, with no special splinter to make one character distinguishable from the rest.

[Tirigon]

shootist70 wrote...


Hmm..you're making a flawed assumption that those artists didn't care about their audience, and then making another flawed assumption that it has relevance, and then topping it off with another flawed assumption that nobody at Bioware is an 'artist.' Don't think they'd be too happy about that.

1. assumption: They really didn´t care about anything. Most artists got censored, some like the notorious Lord Byron even were banned from their homecountry......

2. I don´t see why it would not have relevance if I respond to someone bringing these artists up

3. Nobody at BioWare is an artist. An artist has to work on his own and not as employee to earn his money.