9243 réponses à ce sujet

[FataliTensei]

alienatedflea wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Sorry but:
"We're gay so we want a gay option for Shepard."
and
"I support this because I don't want people accusing me of being racist or homophobic."
Don't count as a good reason for Bioware to add this.

Is "I want more roleplaying options IN A ROLEPLAYING GAME" childish too and doesn´t count?

Is "I want the trilogy to remain CONSISTENT with the other two game too childish and stupid to count too?

Yes it is because allowing same-sex romances isn´t inconsistent. Also because you´re a f*cking idiot and everythingyou say is wrong by definition.

see? you have nothing...here is some points that make this whole thread pointless in regards to the Mass Effect trilogy:
1) No one in this long thread has answered this simple question: What will this addition to ME3 bring to the table? Nothing, all of you guys/girls play this game regardless if ME2 or ME1 didnt have your precious options.  Bioware has nothing to gain from this.  By adding these options will turn other gamers that arent gay away from the stable...but yet you guys/girls will rationalize that "well you dont have to be gay" just doesnt quite cut it...if a new network like FOX got in a fit about the sex scene, what will happen to bioware if they (FOX or any other news network) find out that their games are trying to make little girls and boys gay? (if not making them gay at least exploring gays and lesiban experiences)..would you agree with me that..that would be a PR nightmare? so would the very idea of "more options" in the game be a liability to the company?
2) It is clear that no one here can explain how by having s/s romances in the last installment of the series is consistent with the first two games.  All people are doing is making pure speculation to prove other things are inconsistent..like sian arguement of having joker and the doctor in Cerberus is inconsistent with the first Mass effect which is actually explained if you watch the cut scenes in the game. 

These points are in regards to MASS EFFECT TRILOGY!!! Not DA:O! so dont justify your response of having s/s by saying well they did it in DA so i dont see why they can't do it in ME3

P.S.: i really like how you people will claim they want to hear other peoples' opinion of these "options" yet as soon as there is an opinion that is against this, you people either dismiss the claim as the poster is a troll or a homophobe...nice!! i love it...it really is a one sided arguement...so since i have a total lack of faith here...one of you people will say something about the lines of either "Do not feed the trolls guyssss" or "wow, flea, you are such a homophobe!!" as a response to this reply...its amazing really...I do not see with these defenses that Bioware can take you seriously with this s/s romance options.

It's not that we don't have anything, it's that you ignore anything we say that contradicts your viewpoint and then comeback with the same argument, reworded and we're tired of dealing with you, so please come up with something new and actually worth reading or just go away, because at this point you're little more than annoying

[Nordic Einar]

Guys, can we stop quoting (and responding in kind) to trolls? Their entire goal is to derail the thread - lets not give them that satisfaction.

[CShep25]

alienatedflea wrote...

P.S.: i really like how you people will claim they want to hear other peoples' opinion of these "options" yet as soon as there is an opinion that is against this, you people either dismiss the claim as the poster is a troll or a homophobe...nice!! i love it...it really is a one sided arguement...so since i have a total lack of faith here...one of you people will say something about the lines of either "Do not feed the trolls guyssss" or "wow, flea, you are such a homophobe!!" as a response to this reply...its amazing really...I do not see with these defenses that Bioware can take you seriously with this s/s romance options.

I think I'm living proof counter to that statement. I'm not getting the same flak as you despite erring my misgivings about same sex romances. The reasons why? I'm trying to work towards a solution that appeases both sides. Repeatedly bludgeoning the same points home about why you consider same sex romance as wrong doesn't really cut it when your argument doesn't evolve or advance as people contest with it. Now I'm going to pretend you're not a troll right now and try to teach you something about conversation and differences of opinion. This is what you're doing:

You: "Apples are cooler than oranges."
Them: "No they're not."
You: "...Apples are cooler than oranges."
Them: "Yeah, they're still not."
You: "...Apples are cooler than oranges."
Them: "Sorry, are you special?"
You: "...Apples are coo-"

Respect other peoples' opinions. Take stock of them. Try to see things from their point of view. Then write a response to advance what you're trying to say, taking on more detail or providing a counter point to theres. Not simply repeating what you said two posts ago; all that does is prove you have nothing of better value to say and it diminishes your side of the argument. And don't write so emotionally or derogatively. Especially around the tentative subject of sexuality. If you continue on the same path of being rude, abusive and abrasive, you're going to get reported. Learn to argue properly and more civilized and people are more likely to listen to your side of the argument.

I'm doing this to at least try to get some decent banter out of you, even if it islikely a waste of time.

[SirGladiator]

The fact that the whole 'controversy' was caused by one man cutting out what ME1 had and what we all expected ME2 to have as well is what is the most ironic part of this whole issue. Thinking back to ME1, there was no controvery surrounding the s/s romance, the Liara was pretty much universally liked, and anybody who didn't want to do it simply didn't do it, there was no problem, it was all good. The only problem came in ME2 where the guy came in at the last minute and forced them to take out the Jack and Tali romances for FemShep that all the fans wanted and expected to be in the game. It was an extremely unpopular move and that, combined with certain other less than popular changes, resulted in ME2 having WAY less sales than anybody expected, despite the fact that in most ways ME2 is not just superior to ME1 but VERY superior to it.



I hope that ME3 goes back to its ME1 roots on this issue, we know that they've already said the Liara romance will be back, we can only hope that after the backlash against cutting out the romances in ME2 that it won't happen in ME3, and that we will finally be able to romance Tali without mods, and whoever they might be adding as a new option for ME3 (I'm still hoping for EDI myself). There won't be any controversy that way, because everybody will be happy. The folks that don't like the romances simply won't do them, those who do will, and it'll probably sell better than both ME1 and ME2 combined!

[Azaron Nightblade]

Since when are writers not allowed to decide the sexual orientation of their (NON-player) characters any longer? O.O

The way I always figured it was that a writer has a certain impression of a character, they come to life in their imagination, and act in ways they dream up.

[Kyzzo]

alienatedflea wrote...

1) No one in this long thread has answered this simple question: What will this addition to ME3 bring to the table?

If 60-odd pages of discussion does not answer this question for you, I don't know what or who else can.

alienatedflea wrote...

Nothing, all of you guys/girls play this game regardless if ME2 or ME1 didnt have your precious options.

Irrelevant.
 

alienatedflea wrote...

Bioware has nothing to gain from this.  By adding these options will turn other gamers that arent gay away from the stable...

Is that a fact? If yes, would you be kind enough to point me to the peer-reviewed and verified statistical evidence that support this claim?

alienatedflea wrote...

but yet you guys/girls will rationalize that "well you dont have to be gay" just doesnt quite cut it...if a new network like FOX got in a fit about the sex scene, what will happen to bioware if they (FOX or any other news network) find out that their games are trying to make little girls and boys gay? (if not making them gay at least exploring gays and lesiban experiences)..would you agree with me that..that would be a PR nightmare? so would the very idea of "more options" in the game be a liability to the company?

Hi Red Herring, meet alienatedflea...Alienatedflea, this is Red Herring. Now I'll leave you two alone so you can get to know one another better.

alienatedflea wrote...

2) It is clear that no one here can explain how by having s/s romances in the last installment of the series is consistent with the first two games.  All people are doing is making pure speculation to prove other things are inconsistent..like sian arguement of having joker and the doctor in Cerberus is inconsistent with the first Mass effect which is actually explained if you watch the cut scenes in the game. 

You have yet to demonstrate logically how s/s romance options in ME3 would lead to inconsistency. That means that "Because I say so dammit" does not quite cut it.

alienatedflea wrote...

These points are in regards to MASS EFFECT TRILOGY!!! Not DA:O! so dont justify your response of having s/s by saying well they did it in DA so i dont see why they can't do it in ME3

With all due respect, that's effing rich coming from someone who does not hesitate to bring to the dicussion such arguments as how a game containing s/s romance options would impact the sales of said game, or how inclusion of s/s romances would create a PR nightmare for Bioware Corp.

alienatedflea wrote...

P.S.: i really like how you people will claim they want to hear other peoples' opinion of these "options" yet as soon as there is an opinion that is against this, you people either dismiss the claim as the poster is a troll or a homophobe...nice!! i love it...it really is a one sided arguement...so since i have a total lack of faith here...one of you people will say something about the lines of either "Do not feed the trolls guyssss" or "wow, flea, you are such a homophobe!!" as a response to this reply...its amazing really...I do not see with these defenses that Bioware can take you seriously with this s/s romance options.

I believe it was the great Mark Twain who said something along the lines of, "When people say that they are thinking, what they really mean to say is that they are rearranging their prejudices". When you do have an opinion, which hopefully you can present in a halfway logical manner, I am sure many people will be willing to listen to and discuss with you.


Anyway, I'd originally come to this thread only to state that I do support the inclusion of s/s romance options in ME3.

[Inquisitor Recon]

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. Now who is this illusive man supposedly responsible for sneaking into Bioware's office and deleting your beloved content from both ME1 and ME2. Or are you talking about "the man" as in "the man" that is keeping you down and putting drugs into your water supply or whatever. The only possible indication that they ever considered this was some dialogue lines in ME which were more likely recorded simply because both Shepard voice actors doing voices for ALL of Shepard's lines regardless of gender.



Amazing how your best argument here seems to consist of shouting "your an idiot/your ignorant" as alienatedflee pointed out. And my favorite "your a troll because you don't agree with us." I actually find I like being perceived as the bad guy here.

[C9316]

*Sigh* another one of THESE?

[Ziggy]

alienatedflea wrote...
Bioware has nothing to gain from this.  By adding these options will turn other gamers that arent gay away from the stable...

I have a feeling you'll find this hard to believe, but gay/lesbian people are not the only supporters of this thread.

[ArchDemonXIII]

Em23 wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...
Bioware has nothing to gain from this.  By adding these options will turn other gamers that arent gay away from the stable...

I have a feeling you'll find this hard to believe, but gay/lesbian people are not the only supporters of this thread.

*Raises hand.*

[ADLegend21]

Em23 wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...
Bioware has nothing to gain from this.  By adding these options will turn other gamers that arent gay away from the stable...

I have a feeling you'll find this hard to believe, but gay/lesbian people are not the only supporters of this thread.

indeed, straight people support this thread too.
Also Romances are optional so you don't HAVE to have one, straight or gay.

[ElitePinecone]

ReconTeam wrote...

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. Now who is this illusive man supposedly responsible for sneaking into Bioware's office and deleting your beloved content from both ME1 and ME2. Or are you talking about "the man" as in "the man" that is keeping you down and putting drugs into your water supply or whatever. The only possible indication that they ever considered this was some dialogue lines in ME which were more likely recorded simply because both Shepard voice actors doing voices for ALL of Shepard's lines regardless of gender.

You might like to actually listen to the recordings before you make such a gigantic assumption. They're very easy to find, just scroll down on the front page.

For your information:

The mShep/Kaidan and femShep/Ashley dialogue is unique. The lines are not the same for both genders or romance interests. They were written specifically for these romances.

This thread has been badly derailed by arguments from both sides. Can I state again:

This thread is not for the discussion of the merits of including s/s content in video games. It is meant to be a discussion forum to suggest ways of introducing s/s romance options in future DLC or games and what form this content should take. With respect, repeating the same arguments in various badly formatted postings is not going to change anybody's mind. The last 60 pages of this thread have been mostly constructive discussion - if you can't find the answers to your questions, you're not looking hard enough. 

[shootist70]

ReconTeam wrote...

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. Now who is this illusive man supposedly responsible for sneaking into Bioware's office and deleting your beloved content from both ME1 and ME2. Or are you talking about "the man" as in "the man" that is keeping you down and putting drugs into your water supply or whatever. The only possible indication that they ever considered this was some dialogue lines in ME which were more likely recorded simply because both Shepard voice actors doing voices for ALL of Shepard's lines regardless of gender.

Amazing how your best argument here seems to consist of shouting "your an idiot/your ignorant" as alienatedflee pointed out. And my favorite "your a troll because you don't agree with us." I actually find I like being perceived as the bad guy here.

You've started out from an utterly flawed position and seem oblivious to it. You're making rampant assumptions that heterosexual portrayal is a 'default' choice, the 'normal' choice, and anything otherwise has to come begging at the table to be included, and has to justify itself as acceptable. When you do that the only thing you illustrate is your own bias. When a creative product that offers choice of romantic options goes and excludes certain options then it also runs the risk of being viewed in exactly the same way. It's actually not up to us to justify our position, it's up to the creators to justify theirs. If they can do so, fair enough, if they can't then criticism is natural and is actually productive. Trying to shut down that criticism due to personal bias is moronic, and you deserve to be blasted off the thread. 

If people are calling you 'an idiot' it's not because it's their only defence, it's because that's exactly how you come across. The same goes for you being called a troll. If you find you enjoy 'being the bad guy here' (your own words), it's simply because you're enjoying the attention, which, as everybody knows, is the prime motivation for any troll.

Modifié par shootist70, 17 août 2010 - 10:32 .

[KLUME777]

Wow........a lot of gay people.



*runs far, FAR away*

[Tirigon]

Fanbus wrote...

To quote Stanley Woo:

Game development is not a collaborative effort between developers and gamers; it is a dictatorship, where we alone determine what content goes into our game. You the player make the choice whether that content is acceptable to you (and/or your family) or not.

I completely agree and support that, just wish more developers would follow that rule and not succumb to public, media, or interest group pressure.

Well, apparently the dictators are influenced by Fox news, however.

[Tirigon]

alienatedflea wrote...

if a new network like FOX got in a fit about the sex scene, what will happen to bioware if they (FOX or any other news network) find out that their games are trying to make little girls and boys gay? (if not making them gay at least exploring gays and lesiban experiences)..would you agree with me that..that would be a PR nightmare?

You can´t make someone gay with a game unless he / she is already gay and just needs to realize it.


Anyways, no, I would NOT agree that it´s a PR Nightmare. Everyone knows that media controversy is a great PR tool.

There is a German band called Eisregen which got chart placements by having half their albums forbidden in Germany. They never had to do any advertisement because the Censorship and media controversy were better than anything you can get for money.

[Gibb_Garrus]

It's obvious shepard (At least male shepard) is heterosexual in me 1 and 2, even if you dont romance anyone. Turning him gay would would be.........weird, most likely wont happen. But if it does happen and male squadmates hit on you, they better have a renegade interupt that lets you exile them from your ship lol.

Modifié par Gibb_Garrus, 17 août 2010 - 12:16 .

[ElitePinecone]

Gibb_Garrus wrote...

It's obvious shepard (At least male shepard) is heterosexual in me 1 and 2, even if you dont romance anyone. Turning him gay would would be.........weird, most likely wont happen. But if it does happen and male squadmates hit on you, they better have a renegade interupt that lets you exile them from your ship lol.

Obvious? How so?

[Gibb_Garrus]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Gibb_Garrus wrote...

It's obvious shepard (At least male shepard) is heterosexual in me 1 and 2, even if you dont romance anyone. Turning him gay would would be.........weird, most likely wont happen. But if it does happen and male squadmates hit on you, they better have a renegade interupt that lets you exile them from your ship lol.

Obvious? How so?

well apart from his manliness, one moment i can remember from the top of my head is when shiala, the asari from feros, basically hints on shep and her having a one night stand in the near future, he smiles and winks. No way to get around that. Bioware obviously intend him to be straight.

[TobyHasEyes]

Just want to chime in the view that though I have nothing against s/s romances being included in Mass Effect 3, there are a lot of other features I would prefer Bioware to focus on implementing instead. I am straight, and think to an extent I can't understand what it is like to have your sexuality prejudiced against, so I admit ignorance to that. So I can see, if not fully 'understand', that this is an important inclusion.



I just hope that when Mass Effect 3 comes out, if there are no s/s relationships, Bioware aren't lampooned for having not including them, or accused of bucking to the mainstream

[shootist70]

Gibb_Garrus wrote...


well apart from his manliness, one moment i can remember from the top of my head is when shiala, the asari from feros, basically hints on shep and her having a one night stand in the near future, he smiles and winks. No way to get around that. Bioware obviously intend him to be straight.

As far as gay/bi warrior shep goes it's worth trying to move past certain stereotypes and consider others. Take a look at the ancient Greeks. They tend to be thought of as a bunch of gay philosopher types, but the reason why a bunch of disparate city-states were able to survive to have such a huge impact on western civilisation was because of a ferocious warrior-ethos and martial culture. Yet 'macho' didn't mean 'straight' to them. They were very fluid with their sexuality - in both directions. Women tended to be marginalised, and worship of the perfect male warrior form was hugely attractive to the Greeks and formed a part of their sexuality. Yet they didn't die out from a lack of breeding.

The concept of the 'shield brother' was more than warrior camaraderie to them. Some of their greatest mythical heroes, like Hercules, were bisexual. Even the Spartans were fond of it, and it had it's zenith with the Theban Sacred Band, who were feared by the Spartans themselves and who were a different type of '300' - 150 pairs of gay lovers. The idea being that if you're fighting alongside your lover you'll fight like lions to defeat the enemy before he defeats you, which is pretty much what they did.

Modifié par shootist70, 17 août 2010 - 03:21 .

[ElitePinecone]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Just want to chime in the view that though I have nothing against s/s romances being included in Mass Effect 3, there are a lot of other features I would prefer Bioware to focus on implementing instead. I am straight, and think to an extent I can't understand what it is like to have your sexuality prejudiced against, so I admit ignorance to that. So I can see, if not fully 'understand', that this is an important inclusion.

I just hope that when Mass Effect 3 comes out, if there are no s/s relationships, Bioware aren't lampooned for having not including them, or accused of bucking to the mainstream

This is a  reasonable attitude to take - I definitely have areas that I'd like improved as well, but same-sex content is fairly high on that list

As for 'lampooning', or accusations of bending to the mainstream: I can't speak for everybody here, but ME3 will (hopefully? presumably?) be an awesome game with or without s/s content. Of course it'd be unfortunate if they weren't included, and I'd be disappointed, but ultimately it's a small part of a gigantic game. 

[zvbxrpl]

Tirigon wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

if a new network like FOX got in a fit about the sex scene, what will happen to bioware if they (FOX or any other news network) find out that their games are trying to make little girls and boys gay? (if not making them gay at least exploring gays and lesiban experiences)..would you agree with me that..that would be a PR nightmare?

You can´t make someone gay with a game unless he / she is already gay and just needs to realize it.

Of course you can't make someone gay with a game.  The only things that can make people gay are college and the Rocky Horror Picture Show.  Colbert says so.

Seriously though, it's really not just gay people that want same-sex romance options.  To repeat what Trigon said, is it really that shocking that people want more roleplaying options in a roleplaying game?

I will admit that, even as a straight guy (also white, comfortably middle-class, and living in the suburbs, if we're keeping score of how hard I don't have it), I am somewhat passionate about gay issues.  It's not really about guilt or political correctness, either.  I'm just good friends with enough GLBT (OK, that last letter is largely made up of friends of friends, but such is the life of an introvert) people that, ultimately these sorts of discussions aren't really about what's socially acceptable or what the civil rights questions are.  They all boil down to "Why are you talking smack about my friends?  You don't know them.  Back off!"

So, ReconTeam and alienatedflea, why are you talking smack about my friends?

[Siansonea]

shootist70 wrote...

Gibb_Garrus wrote...


well apart from his manliness, one moment i can remember from the top of my head is when shiala, the asari from feros, basically hints on shep and her having a one night stand in the near future, he smiles and winks. No way to get around that. Bioware obviously intend him to be straight.

As far as gay/bi warrior shep goes it's worth trying to move past certain stereotypes and consider others. Take a look at the ancient Greeks. They tend to be thought of as a bunch of gay philosopher types, but the reason why a bunch of disparate city-states were able to survive to have such a huge impact on western civilisation was because of a ferocious warrior-ethos and martial culture. Yet 'macho' didn't mean 'straight' to them. They were very fluid with their sexuality - in both directions. Women tended to be marginalised, and worship of the perfect male warrior form was hugely attractive to the Greeks and formed a part of their sexuality. Yet they didn't die out from a lack of breeding.

The concept of the 'shield brother' was more than warrior camaraderie to them. Some of their greatest mythical heroes, like Hercules, were bisexual. Even the Spartans were fond of it, and it had it's zenith with the Theban Sacred Band, who were feared by the Spartans themselves and who were a different type of '300' - 150 pairs of gay lovers. The idea being that if you're fighting alongside your lover you'll fight like lions to defeat the enemy before he defeats you, which is pretty much what they did.

Japanese samurai culture also had an institutionalized form of same-sex relationships in their warrior culture, and women were similarly marginalized. It is only with the ascendance of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture of the modern era that homosexuality became so stigmatized and marginalized.

Anyone else wondering if the new PS3 version of ME2 will implement any of the suggestions we've discussed, or if it will just be a straight reformatting job?

[ScotGaymer]

Siansonea II wrote...

Japanese samurai culture also had an institutionalized form of same-sex relationships in their warrior culture, and women were similarly marginalized. It is only with the ascendance of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture of the modern era that homosexuality became so stigmatized and marginalized.

Anyone else wondering if the new PS3 version of ME2 will implement any of the suggestions we've discussed, or if it will just be a straight reformatting job?

Siansonea.

I hate to say this but thats a bit of a daft question.

Of COURSE its going to be a quick formatting job. Bioware for all their brilliance in writing a good story for its games has never made any effort to diversify the various versions of its games on the various platforms.

Heck they have gone backward in terms of Dragon Age wiith DA2 going to have a lame ass console UI on the PC. yuk.