9243 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

alienatedflea wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Heterophobic? Did you seriously try to say that?

yes...yes i did...every post in here is all about its make shep gay but when a "problem poster", "troll", or a "homophobe" makes a point...you and others dismiss like it was nothing...its amazing...im starting to think that since the straight people have a point that because you cant see it because your heterophobic and scared the straight people might have something? i dont care its your problem just dont mess up a great game because you have a pain in your butt how the game was made...its incredible

 I'm straight and this is my first post in this thread, idiot.

[ElitePinecone]

Try to remain civil, please.

[kukkjakana]

Let this thread die please

[alienatedflea]

The Radical Centrist wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...ok then ill explain to you if you explain to me why you are so hellbent determined to get s/s in ME3? first off, did you have the option of s/s in ME1? i dont think so (unless i didnt do something right my MALE shep was strictly straight) Secondly, Did you have the option of s/s in ME2? I dont think so (again unless i didnt do something right my MALE shep was strictly straight) How is making shep gay this late in the series going to be consistent with the other two games of the Mass Effect trilogy? Simply put: It won't.  In this story of Mass Effect, MALE shep is strictly straight...but i dont think i am oppose to giving them a bone and saying since fem shep can be gay (if you want to put it like that which i dont think is right because why does one sex have the option of s/s when the other does not) why not give more options to fem shep...sure i guess i wouldnt mind that...I am not saying that is consistent but thats how the developers made the game so lets stick consistent with what the developers had in mind...

The problem with that argument is that you have to make one of two faulty assumptions.

1) You assume Man!Shep has affirmed his sexuality in the past. He hasn't, it could easily be explained in future DLC or ME3 that there simply were not gay love interests present. There is no need for a ret-con in other words.

--or--

2) You assume that Shep's sexuality is a plot integral device. It's not, romance options are subplots and will always only be interesting to so many people. I know quite a few people who go through the game without ever exploring the romance subplots. If Bioware has determined that Shep's sexuality is predetermined why not then simply go one step further and tell us who Shep's real love interest is, then ret-con the series to make that true and eliminate the love interests we've chosen. In series where we can determine our character's gender, race, background, military history, personality, love interest, and which gun we're going to use to pulp that alien's brain matter I find the lack of choice over Man!Shep's sexuality to be disturbing. And there is a clear trend with ME2 that Bioware is uncomfortable with allowing female -- female relationships as well.

Now why am I fighting so hard for this? Because I'm a bisexual male who feels that a quality man -- man relationship has yet to be realized in gaming. I was deeply dissapointed with the m/m relationship in DA:O (along with the romance subplots in general really). I personally found it insulting that Bioware made the decision to limit the only m/m relationship in the game to be between you and the walking, breathing definition of the "depraved bisexual" trope. I, personally, don't think Bioware was up to par on that one and I'd like them to take another shot at it with the respect and maturity the topic deserves.

alienatedflea you want me to assign value to consistency? lets say you read Narnia or Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings series ok? lets stick with lord of the rings, now Frodo had the task to go to some place with a big volcano and destroy this ring of awesomeness ok? sounds like a cool story but thats because the author was consistent throughout the story. Lets say Frodo find a MACK truck to drive to the volcano which would save him time and the dangers right? but the story is placed in Middle Earth.  How the heck is there a mack truck there? what the heck is happening here? you see? all i didnt was change the mode of transportation for Mr. Frodo but everything else was thrown out of loop.  most people would say that if you change the small details of a character, then big UNFORESEEN changes will occur.  having Male Shep be the rigid straight hero that he is to all the sudden be gay sounds to me a bit drastic. 

Your comparison is a non-sequitor. Allowing the player to make Shep gay isn't the same as transforming him into a Goku knock-off so he can fight the Reapers personally in ME3. Likewise, giving Frodo a love interest isn't the same as suddenly handing him a sniper rifle so he can fight the orcs more efficiently. Sure, I can respect the ripple effect but if you're seriously claiming that making Shep gay is going to have dire consequences for the story I'm going to have to "LOL" and walk away from this conversation. Besides, read my post on page 63 to see my reasoning behind this.

alienatedflea I support the idea of having s/s in rpg games...dont misunderstand me like so many have in this thread but what i dont want is s/s in ME3 when the options should be at the begining of a story not at the end. DO you get what i have been trying to say for so long now? That is what ME1 was all about: Character Development.  Yet these people here is all gun hoe about trashing a great game and franshize for their own wants and needs which is selfish in its finest form.  I hope i clearifed somethings you asked...i dont know if i got all of em.  I dont know if you want s/s in ME3 or not but if you do then i am sorry  but I dont think it would be consistent to have something that shouldve been in the beginning a story where characters are developed and settling is established not at the end where you cut loose ends and finish a story

I have difficulty believing that, not that I'm calling you a liar but you're making some shoddy arguments in favor of keeping m/m relationships out of the game. No offense, I just would figure if you were ok with it you wouldn't be inventing imaginary consistancy to keep them out. And I would definitely say that someone who is supportive of m/m in games wouldn't consider adding one or two at the midpoint to be "trashing a great game and franshize [sic] for their own wants and needs".

alright let me ask you a question alright? now lets say you are writing a story that takes three books to write alright? how would you start that first book? (I am not asking you to remember English class or anything but this is common sense) you start your TRILOGY by giving background to the main character and why they are in the situation they are in right? so what you are really doing is developing the character right? then the second one (i think) you develop the antagonist in the story to build suspense then in the last book you have your epic battle and your character wins blah blah blah and everyone is happy...
SO what you are asking the authors/developers of this game is to change the character background of shep (which personally I have no problem with s/s in rpgs and all your pro arguements for it...but not for ME3...they can do it for DA:O/A because thats the first game in the series...yet you people want s/s in the last part of a trilogy where the character should be focused on the problem at hand because his character as you wanted him/her to be is already developed...so this thread has a point to all future rpgs for bioware but NOT me3...

[FataliTensei]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Try to remain civil, please.

Sometimes it's really hard. <_<

[Kriztaen]

alienatedflea wrote...

alright let me ask you a question alright? now lets say you are writing a story that takes three books to write alright? how would you start that first book? (I am not asking you to remember English class or anything but this is common sense) you start your TRILOGY by giving background to the main character and why they are in the situation they are in right? so what you are really doing is developing the character right? then the second one (i think) you develop the antagonist in the story to build suspense then in the last book you have your epic battle and your character wins blah blah blah and everyone is happy...
SO what you are asking the authors/developers of this game is to change the character background of shep (which personally I have no problem with s/s in rpgs and all your pro arguements for it...but not for ME3...they can do it for DA:O/A because thats the first game in the series...yet you people want s/s in the last part of a trilogy where the character should be focused on the problem at hand because his character as you wanted him/her to be is already developed...so this thread has a point to all future rpgs for bioware but NOT me3...

But the fact of the matter is that Shep was never predetermined, this is not some JRPG where the character is already written fully from the get-go. You get an option of 3 different background origins followed by 3 background events. Everything after that is purely up to the individual player, sorry to burst your bubble, but not all players followed your choices.

Every person plays their Shep a different way, in fact I even made a post explaining how it is not only something that could work but something that someone else out there might have already roleplayed from the start. You conveniently ignored said post since I guess it actually killed your whole "consistency" thing. The fact of the matter is that it is very doable. Please stop hiding behind your paper thin arguments and just admit already that you are uncomfortable with an S/S possiblitly so people that actually support it can just respectfully accept your feeling on the matter and move on, instead of sitting there typing the exact same 2 paragraphs over and over again with a different wording each time to make it seem like you are actually coming up with something new.

On a related note, who thinks we should go down to the suggestion part of the forums and ask them to implement an "ignore user" button? It would save everyone a ton of grief to be able to click a little button that makes a user's posts invisible so you can't even tell if they are in a topic or not....

[KainrycKarr]

kukkjakana wrote...

Let this thread die please

It's not gonna die.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 20 août 2010 - 12:50 .

[Kriztaen]

FataliTensei wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Try to remain civil, please.

Sometimes it's really hard. <_<

Agreed. Most people on this topic are trying their best to remain respectful and patient. Its just a little hard sometimes for both the straight and lgbt people that support this topic to remain friendly when others keep reposting the same tired/debunked points over and over again regardless of any explanations and failing to actually do anything more than pretty much use a thesaurus to modify their statements.

kukkjakana wrote...

Let this thread die please

What the thread needs is not to die, it needs to move on. We were doing fine for about a page, even moving from S/S to some nice ideas on better friendship (not just romance) options. Then he came back and decided to tip over the fuel keg. Again.

Modifié par Kriztaen, 20 août 2010 - 12:54 .

[C9316]

[PsyrenY]

*ignoring AF blobs of text.*

Fanbus wrote...



or how about they give us the tools to use Unreal Ed (which is free by the way) to Mod our game the way we want?



That would actually solve a lot of our issues. Imagine a website, lets call it "PlanetMassEffect" with tons of extra missions, additional squadmates, more romancing options, mods, etc.

That kind of shafts the console players though. Clearly PC sales aren't enough for BW, or else they wouldn't be re-releasing on PS3.



It's also, frankly, a bit of a copout. Every RPG company would then be able to say "we released the dev tools, we don't have to support more romance options because the fans are free to add their own." 10 credits says they would still prepackage straight romances though.

[ElitePinecone]

Optimystic_X wrote...
It's also, frankly, a bit of a copout. Every RPG company would then be able to say "we released the dev tools, we don't have to support more romance options because the fans are free to add their own." 10 credits says they would still prepackage straight romances though.

I agree that 'surrendering' romance options (or, heck, content creation in general) to player mods (even assuming it could transfer over to consoles) is a bit of a copout. We pay, after all, for the content Bioware makes, and relying on modified content sucks some of the legitimacy out of the whole scenario. This isn't to say that modded content can't be awesome, but I'd prefer to have the content (not just necessarily romances) come from the game's creators. In an fairly structured RPG, as well, adding extra content (missions, etc) on a whim could lead to all sorts of problems with story management, balance and import decisions. 

I'm sure there's a gigantic market for a modifiable, extremely flexible mass-market game engine with user-created content (sort of like Spore, but with substance), though. 

[Kriztaen]

Reminds me of Baldur's Gate. BG was an amazing series, but what makes it legendary is the modding community that is still relatively active after over 10 years. They improved on romances, quests, items, etc.



Hell, one of the original devs even helped with a few restoration projects for content that was cut due to time constraints.

[alienatedflea]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I would like to take this opportunity to ask everyone to stop responding to alienatedflea's homophobic blobs of text. The opening post of this topic contains a warning from BW about feeding the trolls, and that certainly applies here.

There are plenty of people that would love to see us get our own thread locked and barred from a restart... Hoperfully, we're bigger than that.

On topic - I love shootist's quotes from the Dragon Age dev team. They understood that greater romantic freedom in RPGs adds to immersion. I think that this needs to be the core of our message - not trying to shock or make any political statements, just that adding these will make the game richer and more rewarding to play for as many people as possible.

Ah yes lets ignore all critics and deem them to be homophobic so we can really show our power and resolve to bioware to include s/s in ME3 and other future games...even though when this does not stand a chance to actually resulting in nothing but the few thirty or so people can pout that ME3 didnt have s/s because it wasnt in the first two games...oh wait my bad that pesky consistency arguement is weak right? while there is no claim that having s/s in ME3 is consistent with the others
here is a question to all of you guys/girls: Why don't you just stick with Dragon Age since according to most of you it is superior in many ways and leave us ME fans alone? I think its interesting that most people here would agree with me when i say that we paid for the game, ME1 and ME2, and sounds like from yall that you want to make it more enjoyable by adding s/s when the simple fact is that some people (ALOT OF PEOPLE since you people claim there is a lot of gays out there) will walk away from the game? and Another question please for us raging homophobes (because we simply do not want s/s in ME2/3) How is shep not straight? (talking males) if there was not an option to your shep to be gay in the first place in ME1 then how do you know he is gay? looks to me that there is no option to have s/s for males yet alot of people want shep gay.  So my point is this: If there was not an option to be gay before and there was only straight options then wouldnt that mean (even though shep's character is purposely vague) he is strictly straight then? or does that mean since all his options are female then he is gay? haha do you see the humor in that? the illogical thought processes that some people claim so heartedly that their shep is gay that really the shep is straight and the gamer is just gay or whatever? I mean so really what you guys are saying that shep is gay because all he ever had was female romances then i guess i am gay? I thought having sex with chicks was being straight but according to yall's logical...i am gay...awesome! ill sign up for the next gay parade then...(its kinda mean for us "gay" men to rub our gayness in other peoples faces by having parades but whatever...if anyone says anything about us "gay" men (even if it wasnt a personal attack and in defense of a game then i will call them bigots and homophobes) thanks i will now show my new fondness of gays to the world

[shootist70]

Flea, I think you may have missed my last reply to you:



Give it up for your own sake, flea. All you're doing is repeating the same old logical fallacy - the misplaced appeal to consistency. The fallacy comes when the 'consistency' is purely something invented and insisted on by the debator to suit their preference. Believe it or not, many bisexual folk may only have occasional s/s relationships, and don't have to conform to some rampant stereotype of yours just to fit your confused idea of consistency.



What are you afraid of anyway? You'd think we were demanding that ME3 male shep would be restricted to one armour choice of a pink tutu, and ran around squealing 'that was fabulous, darlings!' after every battle.

[PsyrenY]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I'm sure there's a gigantic market
for a modifiable, extremely flexible mass-market game engine with
user-created content (sort of like Spore, but with substance), though. 

There probably is indeed - but I think the kinds of gamers that like  machinima-style games like Spore/The Sims/LittleBigPlanet, are not necessarily the same gamers that enjoy the "complete game in box" experience that Bioware has been providing. Yes, there's likely some overlap, but not enough to carry that big a design decision.

Kriztaen wrote...

Reminds me of Baldur's Gate. BG was an amazing series, but what makes it legendary is the modding community that is still relatively active after over 10 years. They improved on romances, quests, items, etc.

Hell, one of the original devs even helped with a few restoration projects for content that was cut due to time constraints.

BG gets a lot of built-in love due to being the best CRPG adaptation of AD&D to date. (Note: I didn't say D&D.) So all those 2nd-ed fans that want to keep TSR's legacy alive (along with THAC0, race/class restrictions and other archaic terms) now that WotC has marched on are going to spend long hours with their labor of love.

Mass Effect may have a great fanbase, but it doesn't have that level of nostalgia and history as a driver.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 20 août 2010 - 02:55 .

[CShep25]

shootist70 wrote...

Flea, I think you may have missed my last reply to you:

Give it up for your own sake, flea. All you're doing is repeating the same old logical fallacy - the misplaced appeal to consistency. The fallacy comes when the 'consistency' is purely something invented and insisted on by the debator to suit their preference. Believe it or not, many bisexual folk may only have occasional s/s relationships, and don't have to conform to some rampant stereotype of yours just to fit your confused idea of consistency.

What are you afraid of anyway? You'd think we were demanding that ME3 male shep would be restricted to one armour choice of a pink tutu, and ran around squealing 'that was fabulous, darlings!' after every battle.

Don't bother. He has selective hearing. Most of us have posted at least one detailed response to his arguments (or argument) and he only picks those which he can (attempt to) pick apart with his failed logic. He's the literal version of a brick wall. With the same IQ. And only a banhammer can knock him down.

By this point, all he's doing is trying to derail the thread with hate speech in a bid to get it locked. Hopefully and sensisbly, if a mod sees this, he'll simply ban Flea rather than close down the whole thread. Because it's currently just one troublemaker and we managed a pretty civil conversation about mods for half a day before Flea showed up again. All I can reccommend is that everyone report his posts when they start getting especially homophobic such as that last one and his provocative opinion on gay parades.

And guys, don't call him homophobic. That lets him off easy. Tell him what he said was homophobic;

How To Tell People They Sound Racist (or Homophobic)

[zvbxrpl]

Ok, let's get this out of the way: The consistency argument is, to be polite, shaky. Posters here have, in fact, explained how it is shaky a number of times. But here goes. John Shepard is not the 'canon' Shepard. There is no 'canon' Shepard. That's kind of what RPG means--you get to choose things on behalf of the protagonist. If you get a choice you didn't have before, that's not inconsistent. Shepard may have been interested in guys all along, but, in the first two games, there really weren't any guys who were interested in him. Maybe he was into girls, too (which, just for any neanderthals who still think 'you have to choose,' is, in fact, something that happens), and he romanced Ash, but saw Horizon as her breaking up with him. Then he's single in the 3rd game, and since he's interested in both genders, he may well end up in a romance with either a man or a woman.



There's a certain illogic in saying that, because no ManShep was ever presented with any situations where a male NPC would show romantic affection toward him, that all ManSheps were therefore established as straight and that in the third game, no ManShep could reciprocate the affection of a heretofore unseen male NPC. It's like saying that, because there were no cutscenes where Garrus or Tali could be killed off in Mass Effect 1, Tali and Garrus were therefore immortal and the fact that they might be killed off in Mass Effect 2's suicide mission was inconsistent. It's not that your argument comes to conclusions we disagree with, AF, it's that the conclusions it comes to do not actually follow from its premises. Your argument really is invalid.

[Siansonea]

Guys, there's no point. Let's talk about something else. Don't rise to the bait, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. We've all tried to lead the horse to water. Now it's time to move on.

[Wittand25]

Having the best friend showing up before the final mission instead of the LI if you don't have a romance creates the problem that you need "bromance" scenes for nearly all the squadmates, meaning the best friend would require the same amount of work as a LI. And that is sadly way too cost intensive ,

What could happen though is that you have a scene with a predetermined NPC like Joker or Chakwas if you dont have an active romance. Not as good as having a special squadmate, but better than the nothing you get in ME1 and 2.

[Nordic Einar]

CShep25 - I absolutely *love* illdoc's videos, and that one in particular I actually had linked in another forum moments before coming here to see it, to my delight, posted in these forums. I approve heartily!



I would definitely love to see DA:O style friendships in ME3, but I very much doubt it'll happen.

[Walrusninja]

Wow... I've been away months, this thread is still going, fairly enough, but it's still a battlefield:o. Maybe we all just got to agree to disagree and stop trying to make others think the same? It's a bit of an endess circle.



Anyways, respect.

[ArchDemonXIII]

alienatedflea wrote...
Bump

^ the best way to interpret anything flea says. Use him to keep the thread on the 1st page.

On topic: anyone else hoping for some non-squad romance? Like Shiala or Gianna? I have some Sheps who avoid romance with crew as it would be inappropriate. Would be nice to have a payoff for them.

[CShep25]

I was wondering if those flirting moments would amount to anything in ME3. I don't know if it's part of something bigger, or just simple fanservice.

[ScotGaymer]

Cshep not everything has to potentially lead somewhere.



Thats just life mate, people flirt.



A cute str8 boy was mates wi me sure id flirt wi him now and again. Hell I flirt with my female friends now and again.

Im sure its the same for str8 ppl. See a cute girl (as a guy) and flirt a bit.

[alienatedflea]

Kriztaen wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

alright let me ask you a question alright? now lets say you are writing a story that takes three books to write alright? how would you start that first book? (I am not asking you to remember English class or anything but this is common sense) you start your TRILOGY by giving background to the main character and why they are in the situation they are in right? so what you are really doing is developing the character right? then the second one (i think) you develop the antagonist in the story to build suspense then in the last book you have your epic battle and your character wins blah blah blah and everyone is happy...
SO what you are asking the authors/developers of this game is to change the character background of shep (which personally I have no problem with s/s in rpgs and all your pro arguements for it...but not for ME3...they can do it for DA:O/A because thats the first game in the series...yet you people want s/s in the last part of a trilogy where the character should be focused on the problem at hand because his character as you wanted him/her to be is already developed...so this thread has a point to all future rpgs for bioware but NOT me3...

But the fact of the matter is that Shep was never predetermined, this is not some JRPG where the character is already written fully from the get-go. You get an option of 3 different background origins followed by 3 background events. Everything after that is purely up to the individual player, sorry to burst your bubble, but not all players followed your choices.

Every person plays their Shep a different way, in fact I even made a post explaining how it is not only something that could work but something that someone else out there might have already roleplayed from the start. You conveniently ignored said post since I guess it actually killed your whole "consistency" thing. The fact of the matter is that it is very doable. Please stop hiding behind your paper thin arguments and just admit already that you are uncomfortable with an S/S possiblitly so people that actually support it can just respectfully accept your feeling on the matter and move on, instead of sitting there typing the exact same 2 paragraphs over and over again with a different wording each time to make it seem like you are actually coming up with something new.

On a related note, who thinks we should go down to the suggestion part of the forums and ask them to implement an "ignore user" button? It would save everyone a ton of grief to be able to click a little button that makes a user's posts invisible so you can't even tell if they are in a topic or not....

I will say yes you are right that shep is vague to say the least but wouldnt you agree with me that in ME1, that the preference of his sexual tendencies been done in the first game and not the last game? It really does not matter what you choose and i choose because the there was not an option provided to us if shep (male) could be gay or not thus making him straight regardless if you think your shep is gay becase you are gay or whatever...so he is straight because he didnt have those options and its too late to make those options unless your willing to rewrite ME1 and ME2 to satisfy you