9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

CShep25 wrote...

Guys. Can we stop using the term homophobe around here? Because as soon as you use it, you've lost the argument. You make it far too easy for them to win. Because when you brand someone a homophobe, the only tangible evidence you have to go off is what they have said, and as others have pointed out that can be explained away with ignorance or naivety. Because in truth there is no method to looking inside someone's head and seeing how they tick meaning all we've got is a couple of words written on some forum that don't tell us much about the person behind them. You can't make a valued summary of their personality from that, and the argument will always resort to 'I'm not a homophobe, you don't know me' which simply cannot be argued against rationally. But this is a forum; we shouldn't care what people are, it's how they come across that is most important, so instead of hurling the 'what you ARE' conversation at them, give them the 'what you SAID' conversation, in which you objectively tell them that what they said was homophobic, not that they are homophobic. That way the argument is based off tangible evidence in regard to their quote and it's no so easy to wriggle out of without wild accusations to derail the argument.

That's why I suggested the term 'homoneurotic'. Clearly some people have some irrational ideas about homosexuality, even if it isn't full-on homophobia.

[Siansonea]

P.S.: Other good alternatives to homophobia are heterosexism and heteronormativity.

[shootist70]

Optimystic_X wrote...

shootist70 wrote...

You can't have a lesbian relationship with Ashley, in ME1, can you?

Originally you could (the audio files are still there, not to mention the HoYay whenever FemShep meaningfully says "Dismissed, Chief.") I agree with Wittand's reasoning behind their removal.

Well, Wittand didn't really reason their removal, which just leaves my point that it was somehow considered acceptable in Liara's case because she had been dehumanised, even it was in a symbolic manner only.

I guess we're going off-topic, though, and like I said, it ain't exactly a serious theory.

Modifié par shootist70, 25 août 2010 - 07:55 .

[ScotGaymer]

CShep25 wrote...

Guys. Can we stop using the term homophobe around here? Because as soon as you use it, you've lost the argument. You make it far too easy for them to win. Because when you brand someone a homophobe, the only tangible evidence you have to go off is what they have said, and as others have pointed out that can be explained away with ignorance or naivety. Because in truth there is no method to looking inside someone's head and seeing how they tick meaning all we've got is a couple of words written on some forum that don't tell us much about the person behind them. You can't make a valued summary of their personality from that, and the argument will always resort to 'I'm not a homophobe, you don't know me' which simply cannot be argued against rationally. But this is a forum; we shouldn't care what people are, it's how they come across that is most important, so instead of hurling the 'what you ARE' conversation at them, give them the 'what you SAID' conversation, in which you objectively tell them that what they said was homophobic, not that they are homophobic. That way the argument is based off tangible evidence in regard to their quote and it's no so easy to wriggle out of without wild accusations to derail the argument.

To be fair ive never actually called anyone a homophobe.

I have merely stated that some of the comments posted sounded/seemed homophobic. and/or ignorant.

[shootist70]

I think we should drop the whole homophobe thing and get back on-topic. We're just allowing the trolls to win here, especially if the thread ends up locked.

[Wittand25]

On the removal of s/s content in ME1. I am not sure that this actually happened. The found audio files are if I am correct just a combination of the things femShep says to Kaidan and Ashley says to mShep, and vice versa. Similar other found audio-files can and do most likely result from the fact that there is only one Shepard script and both Hale and Meer read all the lines. The ambiguity in the dialog between Shepard and LIs of the same sex probably result from the fact that Bioware was pretty lazy in writing the NPCs and made all the dialog work for both a friendship and a romance.



For ME2 on the other hand it is confirmed by a developer that same sex romances were once considered but later decided to be cut (it is not clear at which state of development that happened). Reasons for this can be many things from resource management to trying to avoid romance overkill by having four possible romances per Shepard. Most of the reasons can be argued about, but fear of possible media backslash is not amongst them in my opinion.

[Siansonea]

Wittand25 wrote...

On the removal of s/s content in ME1. I am not sure that this actually happened. The found audio files are if I am correct just a combination of the things femShep says to Kaidan and Ashley says to mShep, and vice versa. Similar other found audio-files can and do most likely result from the fact that there is only one Shepard script and both Hale and Meer read all the lines. The ambiguity in the dialog between Shepard and LIs of the same sex probably result from the fact that Bioware was pretty lazy in writing the NPCs and made all the dialog work for both a friendship and a romance.

For ME2 on the other hand it is confirmed by a developer that same sex romances were once considered but later decided to be cut (it is not clear at which state of development that happened). Reasons for this can be many things from resource management to trying to avoid romance overkill by having four possible romances per Shepard. Most of the reasons can be argued about, but fear of possible media backslash is not amongst them in my opinion.

Well, we can all speculate as to what was and wasn't developed and removed until the cows come home, and the reasons for same. We will always gravitate toward scenarios that support our own views, it's just human nature. It is impossible to know the real reasons though, because what little information we get from BioWare is in impenetrable MarketingSpeak. So that's a dead-end topic, I think. There was content, it was cut. That's all we know, really.

Better to focus on the future of the game franchise, rather than the past, I think. Let us urge BioWare to boldly go where they chose not to go before.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 25 août 2010 - 08:45 .

[Wittand25]

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, we can all speculate as to what was and wasn't developed and removed until the cows come home, and the reasons for same. We will always gravitate toward scenarios that support our own views, it's just human nature. It is impossible to know the real reasons though, because what little information we get from BioWare is in impenetrable MarketingSpeak. So that's a dead-end topic, I think. There was content, it was cut. That's all we know, really.

Better to focus on the future of the game franchise, rather than the past, I think. Let us urge BioWare to boldly go where they chose not to go before.

True, there is little point to moaning about spilled milk, but trying to work out why the romances were cut is important for coming up with reasons why both m/m and f/f options should be in ME3.
Anyway I safe that for a time when the thread slows down, no point in wasting good material when the thread remains on the front page by itself.
I just really hope that ME3 will have finally a satisfying relationship for my main  male Shepard, that does not feel second class, because real life present can be infuriating enough, there should be some satisfaction in a fantasy future.

[PsyrenY]

Wittand25 wrote...

On the removal of s/s content in ME1. I am not sure that this actually happened. The found audio files are if I am correct just a combination of the things femShep says to Kaidan and Ashley says to mShep, and vice versa.

If that was the case, someone did a very good editing job. The two explicitly m/m lines ("Kaidan, I don't believe you've had the pleasure of serving under me," and "Bunk here tonight Kaidan... with me") were seamless. In fact, I don't think those lines even show up in the Ashley romance, due to all her poetry-quoting - so it wouldn't even be simply a matter of replacing "Ashley" with "Kaidan" as you suggest.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 25 août 2010 - 09:33 .

[Siansonea]

Wittand25 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, we can all speculate as to what was and wasn't developed and removed until the cows come home, and the reasons for same. We will always gravitate toward scenarios that support our own views, it's just human nature. It is impossible to know the real reasons though, because what little information we get from BioWare is in impenetrable MarketingSpeak. So that's a dead-end topic, I think. There was content, it was cut. That's all we know, really.

Better to focus on the future of the game franchise, rather than the past, I think. Let us urge BioWare to boldly go where they chose not to go before.

True, there is little point to moaning about spilled milk, but trying to work out why the romances were cut is important for coming up with reasons why both m/m and f/f options should be in ME3.
Anyway I safe that for a time when the thread slows down, no point in wasting good material when the thread remains on the front page by itself.
I just really hope that ME3 will have finally a satisfying relationship for my main  male Shepard, that does not feel second class, because real life present can be infuriating enough, there should be some satisfaction in a fantasy future.

I don't know if it really matters what the reasons for the removal were—either our initiative is strong enough to overcome those reasons, or it isn't. Clearly it was already at a tipping point, or the content would not have been developed and removed, it wouldn't have been explored in the first place if it was never going to be seriously considered for inclusion. If it was removed simply because "we don't think enough people will care", this thread and the FFTL group should demonstrate that there is a sizable enough market that the content is worth including going forward.

[Kriztaen]

Tirigon wrote...

Kriztaen wrote...

You would be surprised just how bad it can be, I lived in a country where I was constantly berated for not being Catholic and treated as a second class citizen, an example would be how I was a foreigner there so when I went to college I paid double the standard fees while at the same time being constanly pushed to the back of lines while signing up for my classes in favour of the "native" students.

It was sick that I was being constantly told to move out of they way or let people behind me in line cut ahead after waiting to get a paper approved for over an hour for the guy that came in 5 minutes ago just because I was european rather than asian.

Wow. Which country was that? Compared to this Germany seems almost open-minded:pinched:

Sorry for going slightly off-topic but when a person asks a question I feel a neurotic need to answer...It was a major city in the Philippines (not the capital city Manila which is actually very foreigner friendly). They had a real hate of foreigners and the really sad thing was that even though they treated people like: "if you are anything other than asian all you are good for is money" the really ironic part is that I am half asian (Chinese/Swiss) but that only served to make me known as a "mongrel".

One thing that is funny though is that country has one of the largest gay communities in asia and homosexuality is largely viewed as "acceptable" thanks to the fact it is so prevalent even though they are at times extremeist catholic. I guess for every bad thing there is an upside, racism is strong but homophobia is quite minimal compared to most places, I would say that was the place where I had the most amount of gay/bi friends.

Discrimination in all forms is more prevalent in the world than some people may think, we can at least be happy we have certain freedoms in most countries. There are still a few countries in the world where being gay is illegal. One of the more outspoken anti-gay ones has a law that can put you in jail for a minimum of up to 2 years if you are "found guilty of homosexual acts". That same country is currently considering also getting a law accepted that will change the current punishment from jailtime to simply having the death penalty for being gay. Though I won't mention the name of the country a quick google search will pretty much show anyone who is curious about it where this is.

Once again, sorry for going slightly off-topic. The thing is that in the end, no matter your sexuality, race, class, background, religion, etc. discrimination is still very large in many different ways in all parts of the world. One thing I have always figured is if you really want someone to understand how it feels...they need to experience being discriminated against. I had a friend in the Philippines that always said I was over-reacting to the discrimination and he found it "normal" since he grew up in that city. Then I showed him a hotel in Hong Kong last year where the elevator had a sign in it that said "No Dogs or Filipinos allowed on this elevator". Ever since then he has been an outspoken anti-discrimination activist.

Modifié par Kriztaen, 25 août 2010 - 10:30 .

[ExtremeOne]

you know what Mass Effect is not some stupid dating game sim from Japan. It has a freaking story maybe bioware should streamline the romance crap.

[Kriztaen]

ExtremeOne wrote...

you know what Mass Effect is not some stupid dating game sim from Japan. It has a freaking story maybe bioware should streamline the romance crap.

The romance "crap" is already super streamlined as it is. Though it seems what many people are looking for is more depth in all character relationships in general, be they romantic or platonic. This game series is heavy built upon it's continuity (choices affecting things) and it's crew/friends. The romance stuff is really just there to add to the feeling of sentimentality towards your crew (albeit not done quite as well as some would hope). Also when it comes to the story...ME2's story focuses almost exclusively on your team. I'm just saying..


Edit: on a side note, anyone else get a bitter taste in their mouth now when they use the word "continuity"?

Modifié par Kriztaen, 25 août 2010 - 10:41 .

[shootist70]

ExtremeOne wrote...

you know what Mass Effect is not some stupid dating game sim from Japan. It has a freaking story maybe bioware should streamline the romance crap.

It's in DAO, and It added a hell of a lot to that game in terms of character-value. 'Stupid dating game sim' is a bit of a silly extreme, don't you think?

[ExtremeOne]

shootist70 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

you know what Mass Effect is not some stupid dating game sim from Japan. It has a freaking story maybe bioware should streamline the romance crap.

It's in DAO, and It added a hell of a lot to that game in terms of character-value. 'Stupid dating game sim' is a bit of a silly extreme, don't you think?

  


I'm not against having a form of romance in the game but it needs to not over shadow the story or the main point of the game 

[shootist70]

ExtremeOne wrote...
I'm not against having a form of romance in the game but it needs to not over shadow the story or the main point of the game 

I don't think anybody here is advocating that it should. Still, any story is nothing without characters that you care about what happens to them, and romantic content is a great device for sparking emotive attachment to characters. Think about all the action movies you've ever seen...how many of them have the heroic protaganist jumping into the sack for a love scene at some point? Over the past week I've watched 300 and a Bourne movie, and it's in both of those, despite the fact that they're as far from the Romance genre as you can get.

Modifié par shootist70, 25 août 2010 - 10:55 .

[Tirigon]

shootist70 wrote...

Oh yeah, I definitely agree. Liara is 'alien' in name, blue skin and tentacle hair only. She's basically a human female as far as the player is concerned. I just find it interesting, in a passing sort of way, how in a video game we can 'dehumanise' the female form in a symbolic manner to make certain things more acceptable than they would be ordinarily.

I assume I don´t count as player then, as I don´t consider her as human female?

Really, please stop generalizing. Just because YOU were like "boobs, lesbian sex, hawt!!!!" doesn´t mean everyone is like that.

[shootist70]

Tirigon wrote...

Really, please stop generalizing. Just because YOU were like "boobs, lesbian sex, hawt!!!!" doesn´t mean everyone is like that.

LMAO!! I'm genuinely laughing at the irony here.

Seriously, go back and read that part of the discussion again.

Modifié par shootist70, 25 août 2010 - 10:56 .

[Tirigon]

Wittand25 wrote...

For ME2 on the other hand it is confirmed by a developer that same sex romances were once considered but later decided to be cut (it is not clear at which state of development that happened). Reasons for this can be many things from resource management to trying to avoid romance overkill by having four possible romances per Shepard. Most of the reasons can be argued about, but fear of possible media backslash is not amongst them in my opinion.

It´s the only reason. Unless you are saying BioWare is willing to make 3 hetero romances for each gender, but ONE homosexual is too much....    That would mean THEY are anti-gay, and after DAO and JE you can´t reallistically assume that.

[Tirigon]

shootist70 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Really, please stop generalizing. Just because YOU were like "boobs, lesbian sex, hawt!!!!" doesn´t mean everyone is like that.

LMAO!! I'm genuinely laughing at the irony here.

Seriously, go back and read that part of the discussion again.

I´m not seeing any irony, I´m seeing a guy with Garrus-Avatar who can´t accept he failed and that´s it.

[shootist70]

Tirigon wrote...


I´m not seeing any irony, I´m seeing a guy with Garrus-Avatar who can´t accept he failed and that´s it.

Ok, let's put the obvious /facepalm to one side and let me clear it up for you. The discussion about Liara was simply a few loose thoughts about how lesbian s/s content (amongst other things) may have been presented to make it acceptable to a general audience. Namely by dehumanising Liara in a symbolic manner, while still leaving her recognisably human enough to appeal to male gamers. Like I said, I'm not even convinced myself, it was just thrown in the air for discussion.

The hilarious irony is that YOU were the one to jump to a dumb generalisation about me!

[MisterDyslexo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

On the removal of s/s content in ME1. I am not sure that this actually happened. The found audio files are if I am correct just a combination of the things femShep says to Kaidan and Ashley says to mShep, and vice versa.

If that was the case, someone did a very good editing job. The two explicitly m/m lines ("Kaidan, I don't believe you've had the pleasure of serving under me," and "Bunk here tonight Kaidan... with me") were seamless. In fact, I don't think those lines even show up in the Ashley romance, due to all her poetry-quoting - so it wouldn't even be simply a matter of replacing "Ashley" with "Kaidan" as you suggest.

Either the scripts were exactly the same in the game, or the developers didn't want to put it in the game to create more controversy. I personally think they wanted it in there, but left it out, knowing it'd cause a lot of problems. I think though they could do it for ME3 definitely wihtout all the problems. Hopefully though, they don't make everybody a romance for both sexes like they made everybody romanceable in ME2. They should only make the logical ones s/s romanceable. My list:
-Ashley/Kaiden
-Miranda (she did rebuild shepard, and admires shepard greatly)
-Jack (I heard she was supposed to be)
-Any asari (if you count them)
can't think of any more atm

[Tirigon]

shootist70 wrote...


The hilarious irony is that YOU were the one to jump to a dumb generalisation about me!

I see. There is indeed a certain irony, yes:police:.

However, if you made this assumption that most players see her as human WITHOUT sharing this sentiment it´s even worse.....

[shootist70]

Tirigon wrote...


However, if you made this assumption that most players see her as human WITHOUT sharing this sentiment it´s even worse.....

Yeah, we like to believe in our characters. Liara, though, isn't meant to be 'alien' in the literal sense of the word, she's meant to be identifiably 'human'. Romantic sub-plots involving sex with a mass of claws, eyes and tentacles probably wouldn't get most players going.

Modifié par shootist70, 25 août 2010 - 11:52 .

[Tirigon]

shootist70 wrote...


Yeah, we like to believe in our characters. Liara, though, isn't meant to be 'alien' in the literal sense of the word, she's meant to be identifiably 'human'. Romantic sub-plots involving sex with a mass of claws, eyes and tentacles probably wouldn't get most players going.

Well.

To be fair, I find her much more sexy as Queen of Blade than as human:wub:


(Preparing against the flames now)

Modifié par Tirigon, 26 août 2010 - 12:06 .