9243 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I thought this as well, especially in Mass Effect 2. Rejecting romance offers (that I certainly didn't willingly initiate) from Miranda, Jack and Tali was made hugely difficult. The player needs to seriously disappoint and/or upset the LI for them to back off, which I always found kinda strange. In Jack's case, a late rejection makes her really enraged, while Tali descends into sadness. For a team of people that are regularly in stressful situations, the Normandy's crew somewhat overreacts when it comes to rejection - and it's kinda unnerving that being friendly gets such a "head over heels in love" reaction. It broke the immersion, a little.

Let's be fair here. I certainly never had Miranda throwing herself at my Shep. You can be a friend to her from start to finish without ever feeling like you're shooting her down, and the option that starts the romance is very obvious. Give Bioware credit where it's due!

Poaches wrote...

With the asari however, there's always the mind control.

*facepalm*

[Magnus_The_Red]

Somebody needs to write a Guide on how to avoid the Heterosexual romances in ME2.

I have not started playing ME2 yet, but now i'm worried about those "ninjamances" mentioned earlier.



What's worse then lack of s/s romance; forced or difficult to avoid Het romance.



I want my FemShep to be loyal to Liara, or at least remain a lesbian.





I can't help but feel that playing through ME2 is gonna be like going through an obstacle course, trying to avoid "ninjamances". But I can only hope it's not as bad as it sounds...

Modifié par Magnus_The_Red, 30 août 2010 - 02:53 .

[ArchDemonXIII]

Magnus_The_Red wrote...

Somebody needs to write a Guide on how to avoid the Heterosexual romances in ME2.
I have not started playing ME2 yet, but now i'm worried about those "ninjamances" mentioned earlier.

What's worse then lack of s/s romance; forced or difficult to avoid Het romance.

I want my FemShep to be loyal to Liara, or at least remain a lesbian.


I can't help but feel that playing through ME2 is gonna be like going through an obstacle course, trying to avoid "ninjamances". But I can only hope it's not as bad as it sounds...

 personally I find it less ninjitsu and more railroading. I never have any difficulty  telling when it's heading towards a relationship, it's just sometimes the signs are after you say something you thought was innocuous.  Y'know, pretty much like ME1.

 Just do what I do, quicksave before talking to any potential LI's

[Heavensrun]

I'm suprised and kinda proud that this thread is still around and on track.  It tells me that we've got a pretty cool, largely open minded community here.

ArchDemonXIII wrote...

 I believe this is still on topic.

 I'm just hoping that any love interests are better written than Tali's. While I thought the nervous rambling straight to hopping on you was kinda charming, the lead up is kinda jarring. I played it out recently and it struck me that it goes from showing interest to her starting on antibiotics.

 To me it kinda struck me as being like this:

guy: I like you. you should hang out a my place. 
girl: I want to, but first I need to get started on birth control.
guy: Ummm..... what? I was thinking maybe a movie and some making out....

Not that i'm a prude, but when going from A to D I still like steps B & C even if they happen quickly. At least for anything that involves love instead of lust.

To be fair?  She has to start on antibiotics to even make out, or even show you her face.    Starting on antibiotics wasn't  a jump towards sexytimes, it was a step towards being able to show you what your prospective date -looks like-.

[Heavensrun]

shootist70 wrote...

Poaches wrote...

eh. does sexuality need to be "explained" ? This isn't exactly contracting a disease or getting implants. Its an intuitive part of human nature.

If shep does something due to input from the player, they can rationalize whatever they want. This is roleplaying. rpg.

It's not a case of 'explaining sexuality', it's more a case of knocking the consistency argument on the head.

Of course, Poaches point kinda -does- knock the consistency argument on the head.

The argument is that it would be inconsistent for ManShep to go for a guy after two games of being straight male/straight female/Lesbian/besexual female.

Human beings are not consistant.  I was "straight" as far as I knew, for 20 years of my life.  And I actually realized I was bi a lot earlier in my life than some people do.  Sometimes it just takes the right person.

[Heavensrun]

Kappa Neko wrote...

I'm a heterosexual woman very satisfied with the Kaidan romance but I support this thread!
It's the 21th century and it's still not possible to have gay characters in video games. Amazing.
Ok, with Liara we sort of had a lesbian choice because that's something heterosexual men actually enjoy. Apparently weird disturbing alien sex is no problem either, but a guy-guy romance? Heaven forbid! It's SO ridiculous! *shakes head*
I don't get what the problem is... If you're an adolescent boy scared of anything homosexual, don't do the gay romance! Have your tough guy fantasy with the hot chicks and let others enjoy their fantasies.
Bioware shouldn't be so scared of the media! It never ceases to amaze me how conservative modern society still is. Or should I say hypocritical?
ME1 had a tiny bit of nudity. Generated media outcry. So no more nudity. Jeez. Grow a backbone Bioware! Bit of nudity and same-sex romance is not going to ban ME3, is it?!

Okay, be fair.  Bioware has had several games with same sex romances, including at least two  where said romances were M/M.  Whatever Bioware's reasons for not including M/M relationships in ME, let's not accuse them of being afraid of the content, okay?  Otherwise Zevran (Dragon Age) and Sky (Jade Empire) wouldn't have been open to that exact -sort- of content.

[Ryzaki]

True. Ninjamancers weren't the problem as much as "Oh you're not screwing me so I'm not going to talk to you no moar!"



Probably why I prefer DA.

[ArchDemonXIII]

Heavensrun wrote...

I'm suprised and kinda proud that this thread is still around and on track.  It tells me that we've got a pretty cool, largely open minded community here.

ArchDemonXIII wrote...

 I believe this is still on topic.

 I'm just hoping that any love interests are better written than Tali's. While I thought the nervous rambling straight to hopping on you was kinda charming, the lead up is kinda jarring. I played it out recently and it struck me that it goes from showing interest to her starting on antibiotics.

 To me it kinda struck me as being like this:

guy: I like you. you should hang out a my place. 
girl: I want to, but first I need to get started on birth control.
guy: Ummm..... what? I was thinking maybe a movie and some making out....

Not that i'm a prude, but when going from A to D I still like steps B & C even if they happen quickly. At least for anything that involves love instead of lust.

To be fair?  She has to start on antibiotics to even make out, or even show you her face.    Starting on antibiotics wasn't  a jump towards sexytimes, it was a step towards being able to show you what your prospective date -looks like-.

 I get that. I still think there should have been more along the lines of say Shepard wrapping his arm around her with one arm, holding hands with the other, resting his forehead on her faceplate. I mean second romance conversation she's talking skin on skin.

[MisterDyslexo]

I agree. The only romance that is plain and obvious from the beginning is Garrus'. Miranda's somewhat, although that can start with the conversation right after her loyalty mission, just by being nice to her.

[Heavensrun]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

I agree. The only romance that is plain and obvious from the beginning is Garrus'. Miranda's somewhat, although that can start with the conversation right after her loyalty mission, just by being nice to her.

You know, I never had the problems some people had with false-starting relationships.  It always seemed really obvious to me which convo options were "romancey" and which ones were "just friends-y".  I did three femshep playthroughs.  One lesbian, loyal to Liara, one deliberately romanced Jacob, and one spent the end of the game pining for Kaiden.  (I've nothing against the Garrus or Thane relationships, in fact the Garrus/Femshep head touch was full of D'awwww, but I had them spoiled by the youtubes, and I hadn't seen Jacob's.  Plus he totally won my renegade shep over with the end of his loyalty mish.)

[jedishephard]

whats wrong with the consistency arguement exactly? just wondering what is it?

[Tirigon]

ArchDemonXIII wrote...

 Sure, why not? It's theoretically no different from someone who's only exposure is to people of their own pigmentation finally seeing someone different. Most likely they'd just see it as exotic.

Most likely they´d try to enslave or exterminate them. Remember what happened when Europeans discovered America or when they established colonies in Africa and Asia?

[Tirigon]

jedishephard wrote...

whats wrong with the consistency arguement exactly? just wondering what is it?

It´s ridiculous, and it has been dismissed like 20 times on the last 5 pages, each times with long, looooooooooong explanations as to why it doesn´t apply. I´m not going to explain it a 21st time.

[jedishephard]

Siansonea II wrote...

grim_reaper_13 wrote...

All right lets get this straight (or like Captain Price would say "This is for the record")

I don't mind homosexuality in videogames nor am i homophobic.
I liked that in Dragon Age Origins you had the ability to have a homosexual relationship with either Zevran for a Male Warden or Leliana for a Female Warden even though i didnt follow it.
But i wouldn't like to see a homosexual relationship in Mass Effect 3 because Shep doesn't express interest in one.
And as i said before i would like in future Mass Effect games with a new character the ability to have a homosexual relationship.

Are my posts invisible?

• Shepard could easily have been gay this whole time if he/she did not pursue romance in the first two games.
• Shepard could easily be bisexual if he/she pursued romance in the first two games.
• Male Shepard refraining from hitting on dudes in the first games does NOT mean he doesn't have any interest in them.
• Saying that you don't want something in ME3 because it wasn't in ME1 or ME2 is a recipe for a stultifying experience. That 'logic' can easily be expanded to all sorts of other things.

Personally, I think Shepard working for Cerberus in ANY capacity is a bigger stretch than any sort of romance storyline considerations. After Akuze, Corporal Toombs, Admiral Kahoku, and all the other atrocities Cerberus committed, newly-awakened Shepard should have just killed Wilson, Jacob and Miranda and taken the shuttle back to Alliance space. Period. So saying that "ManShep wanting some ManLove is inconsistent" kind of pales in comparison to that huge disconnect in continuity.

it seems to me that your rationale is the consistency arguement but in reverse but i am starting to think that this consistency arguement is a double edge sword...it supports and disproofs both sides...

[ElitePinecone]

jedishephard wrote...

it seems to me that your rationale is the consistency arguement but in reverse but i am starting to think that this consistency arguement is a double edge sword...it supports and disproofs both sides...

To be fair to as many sides of the issue as I can be, it's incredibly difficult to argue anything from our perspective when we simply don't have control over creative processes or any insight into Bioware's mindset on this.

Arguing for consistency would be admirable - except that any designer would abandon consistency in a second if it got in the way of good story, gameplay or sales. Ultimately following consistency to its logical extreme would produce a series of cloned games with no changes reflecting feedback from users or any new ideas of the developers.Arguing against consistency is also fraught with danger. I'm open to the argument that if consistency is sacrificed, all sorts of weird changes are justified - but ultimately we don't have creative control. At all. Anything in this thread is and will only ever be a polite suggestion.

Where the 'consistency' argument breaks down for me is that you're arbitrarily assigning Shepard characteristics that he or she simply doesn't possess. Assuming that the default Shepard is heterosexual based on their behaviour (or speech pattern, physical appearance, mannerisms, etc) is rather... misguided. 

I think it would be great if both sides decided we have better things to discuss than debating the logical extremes of following consistency to its limits. Surely there's a compromise situation that would satisfy you enough to accept s/s romances? Keeping in mind, of course, that you'd never have to play through it if you didn't specifically choose to through dialogue. 

[PsyrenY]

jedishephard wrote...

it seems to me that your rationale is the consistency arguement but in reverse but i am starting to think that this consistency arguement is a double edge sword...it supports and disproofs both sides...

The larger consistency argument is the one that affects Bioware as a company. Their other two roleplaying IPs include s/s relationships; there is no good reason for why Mass Effect does not.

Furthermore, they're depicting a game about a fictional future of mankind. Predicting that there will be no homosexuality in the future raises rather unfortunate implications. (Hint: there will.)

[shootist70]

jedishephard wrote...
it seems to me that your rationale is the consistency arguement but in reverse but i am starting to think that this consistency arguement is a double edge sword...it supports and disproofs both sides...

No point telling us that without telling us why you think so. But please, offer a new insight and not one that's been dealt with a dozen times already.

[jedishephard]

shootist70 wrote...

jedishephard wrote...
it seems to me that your rationale is the consistency arguement but in reverse but i am starting to think that this consistency arguement is a double edge sword...it supports and disproofs both sides...

No point telling us that without telling us why you think so. But please, offer a new insight and not one that's been dealt with a dozen times already.

whoa...i dont even know the consistency arguement is...so watch who you are flaming before you make yourself look like an ass...just seems to me (by reading previous posters) that she used the consistency arguement to defend her postion...now will someone who is well-informed tell me whats this consistency business is all about rather than flaming an outsider looking in?! thanks

[shootist70]

jedishephard wrote...

...so watch who you are flaming before you make yourself look like an ass...

Uhh...I think you just did a bang-up job of making yourself look exactly that way. It was a polite request, so please respond politely.

Also, just try reading the last few pages of the thread. It's all on there.

Modifié par shootist70, 30 août 2010 - 03:23 .

[PsyrenY]

Uhh, how exactly was shootist flaming?

[jedishephard]

ElitePinecone wrote...

jedishephard wrote...

it seems to me that your rationale is the consistency arguement but in reverse but i am starting to think that this consistency arguement is a double edge sword...it supports and disproofs both sides...

To be fair to as many sides of the issue as I can be, it's incredibly difficult to argue anything from our perspective when we simply don't have control over creative processes or any insight into Bioware's mindset on this.

Arguing for consistency would be admirable - except that any designer would abandon consistency in a second if it got in the way of good story, gameplay or sales. Ultimately following consistency to its logical extreme would produce a series of cloned games with no changes reflecting feedback from users or any new ideas of the developers.Arguing against consistency is also fraught with danger. I'm open to the argument that if consistency is sacrificed, all sorts of weird changes are justified - but ultimately we don't have creative control. At all. Anything in this thread is and will only ever be a polite suggestion.

Where the 'consistency' argument breaks down for me is that you're arbitrarily assigning Shepard characteristics that he or she simply doesn't possess. Assuming that the default Shepard is heterosexual based on their behaviour (or speech pattern, physical appearance, mannerisms, etc) is rather... misguided. 

I think it would be great if both sides decided we have better things to discuss than debating the logical extremes of following consistency to its limits. Surely there's a compromise situation that would satisfy you enough to accept s/s romances? Keeping in mind, of course, that you'd never have to play through it if you didn't specifically choose to through dialogue. 

I agree with you fully...nothing in about the game is technically consistent since (its an rpg and the choices you and i made will not be the same) expect for the storyline (which can be agrued for and against rather shep is gay or not) but that does seem to be dumb thing to use in defense of any position :-/ thanks for explaining man

[jedishephard]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Uhh, how exactly was shootist flaming?

sounded to me that he was accusing me of being for this stupid consistency agruement.  I am simply asking questions, Not to get flamed by people who are overly passionate about their side of this "issue"

[PsyrenY]

jedishephard wrote...

sounded to me that he was accusing me of being for this stupid consistency agruement.  I am simply asking questions, Not to get flamed by people who are overly passionate about their side of this "issue"

Do you even know what flaming means?

[shootist70]

jedishephard wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Uhh, how exactly was shootist flaming?

sounded to me that he was accusing me of being for this stupid consistency agruement.  I am simply asking questions, Not to get flamed by people who are overly passionate about their side of this "issue"

It's a discussion forum. Asking you to elaborate on your posts for the sake of further discussion is not flaming, bud.

[Siansonea]

Jedi, please understand that we've been dealing with some "problem posters" in this thread, who've basically stated that offering same-sex content was inconsistent from a story standpoint. After much back-and-forth, we teased out that the reasoning was that because Shepard wasn't a poster child for gay stereotypes in the first two games, it would be unrealistic if Shepard "suddenly went gay". We're all a bit weary of trying to counter this particular line of reasoning, since that member's approach was to simply ignore all the salient points we made, and simply reiterate his own point that it would somehow break the game if MaleShepard could get some manlove in ME3. Apparently the thinking is if you aren't able to scream from the rooftops "I'm gay/bisexual!" in the first two games, there's simply no way Shepard realistically could be gay/bisexual in the latter part of the story. The lack of an explicit antecedent is cited as a justification for exclusion in ME3. We all thoroughly debunked this idea several times over, since it was clear that the crux of the issue was that Shepard wasn't "gay acting enough" and was therefore automatically explicitly heterosexual. It was really a silly argument in a lot of ways.