9243 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterDyslexo]

FataliTensei wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Wanting same-sex inclusion is not the same as wanting the Mako back, or any of the other mundane things people ask about, like inventory, armor, weapons, etc. None of those things have any social implications in the real world. It doesn’t take any courage to take a stand on the Mako vs. the Hammerhead.

And yes, I realize that this is an argument both for AND against our initiative. The natural follow-up from the opposing faction will be “why should BioWare do this if it will cause conflict for them?” Well, clearly there will be conflict regardless, they just have to decide what type of statement they wish to make with their products. And like it or not, no matter what they do, it will make a statement of some kind.

It took forever for me to admit my inventory fetish...

At least you took that first step, now you can get help.

There's nothing wrong with an inventory fetish

Inventory fetishes are sexy. You can scroll through my upgrades anytime

[HCS01]

I saw this topic and wanted to take a moment to weigh in on it. I would like to preface my statement with the fact that another person's sexual orientation is of no consequence to me. I believe that consenting adults should be able to act as they wish when causing no harm to anyone else. I say this because I hope that my opinion will be not immediately dismissed because of my stance.
This is a work of fiction. As such, it has been written with certain limitations and boundaries that were put in place by the creators. There are no derogatory remarks regarding sexual orientation in the game, so it cannot be said that gay males have been ostracized. The fact of the matter is that this option is, simply, not in the game. It seems as if the purpose of this thread is to force the opinion of one group onto the rest. The creators do not share your views. It is a shame that the OP is seeking tolerance and acceptance towards his/her own ideals and desires when it is being demonstrated that any view contrary to the original post is unacceptable.

EDIT BECAUSE I FORGOT A WORD

Modifié par HCS01, 01 septembre 2010 - 09:28 .

[Wittand25]

HCS01 wrote...

I saw this topic and wanted to take a moment to weigh in on it. I would like to preface my statement with the fact that another person's sexual orientation is of no consequence to me. I believe that consenting adults should be able to act as they wish when causing no harm to anyone else. I say this because I hope that my opinion will be immediately dismissed because of my stance.
This is a work of fiction. As such, it has been written with certain limitations and boundaries that were put in place by the creators. There are no derogatory remarks regarding sexual orientation in the game, so it cannot be said that gay males have been ostracized. The fact of the matter is that this option is, simply, not in the game. It seems as if the purpose of this thread is to force the opinion of one group onto the rest. The creators do not share your views. It is a shame that the OP is seeking tolerance and acceptance towards his/her own ideals and desires when it is being demonstrated that any view contrary to the original post is unacceptable.

Opposing views are not unacceptable. Hard to accept maybe but frankly I never came across a really good reason to oppose the inclusion.
What is unacceptable though are opposing posts that contain nothing but "I don´t want it" and don´t give further reasons to not include it. I am not saying that your post is that kind, I am just explaining because certain posters like to paint themselves as martyrs if you challenge their views and not agree with them.

Saying that the supporters of the thread want to force their view onto everyone else would only be valid if we demanded that every Shepard has to be bisexual and that a same-sex one night stand is mandatory to complete ME3. We only however ask for the option for Shepard to engage in an s/s relationship, something that would not affect the game of everyone else who plays the game and does not want that option. As far as why the creators decided not to include m/m content in both and full f/f content in ME2, we simply don´t know the answer, however a Developer post on the old forums before the release of ME2 confirmed that s/s content was once planned and then cut. Sadly the developer did not say why it was cut, but part of the reason of the support group and this thread is to show that there are many members of the fan-base, who do not want that to happen again and that overcoming the problem that stopped the inclusion of fully developed s/s content in the first two games might be worth it.

[shootist70]

In respone to some of the arguments here it's probably worth posting some of David Gaider's comments from the DA2 'Male/male romance' thread. Ok, it's a different game and we can't assume anything, but his overall points are still relevant to the discussion as a whole.

Romance options are just that-- optional. They're an extra part of the game and not really central to its purpose. Perhaps you think they should be, but that's beside the point. They're not. Being an option means that they're essentially a luxury, and while people may argue as to exactly who's luxury they get to be they don't go beyond that. They're not a right, and treating them like one is taking it a step too far. We put in content as we can afford it, based on the size of the audience that content is likely to be used by-- not according to what's "fair".

This comes with a few caveats, however

2) You don't get to argue that an option you don't like and don't intend to use shouldn't exist at all, for anyone. Sorry, but our only concern here is that there are people who will like it. If you don't, then opt not to use it. That's why it's a choice.

3) Persuant to the above, beware of majority privilege. It's very easy for people who don't have an issue that the minority feel (and this applies to race and gender-- in gaming, particularly-- as well as to sexual orientation) to believe that something is "not a problem". "I don't see why you're so uptight about it!" Realize when you make these sorts of comments that you have no idea what you're talking about, for all our sakes. You don't know what it feels like to be marginalized, and it behooves those in the majority to use at least a modicum of sensitivity when it comes to addressing such issues. No, games aren't a platform for social change, but that doesn't mean we are also absent of responsibility when we include content in our games where such issues can arise. If we were to claim "majority privilege" as our only guide, we do nothing but add to the problem. That said, we do face other limitations-- not least of which, as I said, is that this isn't the point of the game and thus is only ever going to get limited resources.

Insofar as the male-male romance content goes specifically, there's no evidence to suggest it affected sales in the slightest. In fact, our own telemetry shows that the content was used by more players than most people would assume (you can draw your own conclusions from that). If the only objection someone can muster is "it makes me uncomfortable" then there's not too much to say-- there's lots of things in a Mature-rated game that could potentially make someone uncomfortable, some of them not even optional. That's the risk you take, I guess, when you play something that is not, by design, intended to be inoffensive to all. Trying to object from an economic standpoint, however, really doesn't wash.

Modifié par shootist70, 01 septembre 2010 - 09:11 .

[HCS01]

Wittand: I made the statement regarding the forcing of an opinion because of the continued push for the option of a homosexual male Shepard to be included. There appears to be no respect for the fact the the creators left this option out of the final published work. I am not trying to bash you, though. I understand where your coming from.

Shootist: Regarding the quote you posted
2) Whatever the reason, the option was not included. This is how it is. You are not respecting a creators right to publish a work as he/she sees fit because it does fit with your beliefs/desires.
3)The fact of the matter is that there is no derogatory content regarding homosexual relationships. The rights of the minority are not being infringed upon. The majority does get privilege, with the understanding that the rights of the minority be protected. What is being requested is a privilege because this is a work of art, and the creators have the right and freedom to publish whey they wish. Oh, and one more thing: I am Lakota, Chawktaw, Cherokee, Irish, German, and Black American. I did not grow up on a reservation, am too light to be black, and am too dark to be white. I find it demeaning that you would post such a quote, assuming that no one could relate to your feeling marginalized because your particular views are not represented in a work of art.

The point that I am trying to make is that, after all is said and done, this push to have the same sex option included equivilant to a push to have it excluded if it were available.  This is a work of art, and as such, freedom of expression should be allowed.  This includes the right to not represent a certain viewpoint. It just seems to me that the game's creators right express the story as they see fit is not being respected. The reason why a same sex option was not included does not matter, especially since there was no negativity, in any way, shape, or form, directed towards those of opposing views.

EDIT - WANTED TO CLARIFY MY POINT

Modifié par HCS01, 01 septembre 2010 - 10:09 .

[shootist70]

HCS01 wrote...

2) Whatever the reason, the option was not included. This is how it is. You are not respecting a creators right to publish a work as he/she sees fit because it does fit with your beliefs/desires.
3)The fact of the matter is that there were is no derogatory content regarding homosexual relationships. The rights of the minority are not being infringed upon. The majority does get privilege, with the understanding that the rights of the minority be protected. What is being requested is a privilege because this is a work of art, and the creators have the right and freedom to publish whey they wish.

Maybe you should read it again. Bioware can and will implement such things if they feel there's a demand for it. That's their only criterion. They have no other issues. They recognise that majority shouldn't override minority, that in fact it is fine to create for a minority if they represent enough of a demand. In their experience there is enough of a demand. This thread itself is purely an attempt to show to Bioware that the demand does exist so that it can be represented in future games. It seems to me that they know this already.

You can contrive all the arguments you like, yet it will remain as simple as that.

Oh, and one more thing: I am Lakota, Chawktaw, Cherokee, Irish, German, and Black American. I did not grow up on a reservation, am too light to be black, and am too dark to be white. I find it demeaning that you would post such a quote, assuming that no one could relate to your feeling marginalized because your particular views are not represented in a work of art

EDIT: It helps to put this into context. David was posting on a thread were some posters had expressed views that would seem to indicate that they did not know how it felt to be marginalised, and might have expressed greater sensitivity if they had.

Modifié par shootist70, 01 septembre 2010 - 10:29 .

[Wittand25]

While a game might be art, it is also a product and everyone buying a first hand copy purchases it and hands the publisher/developer money for it. It is therefore perfectly fine if a customer gives feedback on how the product can be improved, and that is exactly what is happening in this thread.

Bioware has shown in the past that they do listen to customer feedback (OK I think that sometimes this lead to pretty bad decisions, but that is another topic), and giving feedback is exactly what is happening here.



If the thread would contain encouragement to boycott Bioware games, or to harass Bioware in any other way I would agree that this was uncalled for, but this does not happen, all that does happen is people saying that they would like such content and even suggesting ways on how such content could be included with causing as little as possible disturbance to those who do not want to see such content.

[JockBuster]

grim_reaper_13 wrote...

illerianna wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

grim_reaper_13 wrote...

All right lets get this straight (or like Captain Price would say "This is for the record")

I don't mind homosexuality in videogames nor am i homophobic.
I liked that in Dragon Age Origins you had the ability to have a homosexual relationship with either Zevran for a Male Warden or Leliana for a Female Warden even though i didnt follow it.
But i wouldn't like to see a homosexual relationship in Mass Effect 3 because Shep doesn't express interest in one.
And as i said before i would like in future Mass Effect games with a new character the ability to have a homosexual relationship.

Are my posts invisible?

• Shepard could easily have been gay this whole time if he/she did not pursue romance in the first two games.
• Shepard could easily be bisexual if he/she pursued romance in the first two games.
• Male Shepard refraining from hitting on dudes in the first games does NOT mean he doesn't have any interest in them.
• Saying that you don't want something in ME3 because it wasn't in ME1 or ME2 is a recipe for a stultifying experience. That 'logic' can easily be expanded to all sorts of other things.

Personally, I think Shepard working for Cerberus in ANY capacity is a bigger stretch than any sort of romance storyline considerations. After Akuze, Corporal Toombs, Admiral Kahoku, and all the other atrocities Cerberus committed, newly-awakened Shepard should have just killed Wilson, Jacob and Miranda and taken the shuttle back to Alliance space. Period. So saying that "ManShep wanting some ManLove is inconsistent" kind of pales in comparison to that huge disconnect in continuity.

+1000

Most of my gay friends do not hit on every single s/s person they come across. That does not mean they are straight. Just like how the fact that I don't try to bang every guy I see doesn't mean I'm a lesbian. People restrain feelings for a variety of reasons, none of which have anything to do with the fact that they don't feel them. Shepard could easily have been worried he was picking up the wrong signals from Kaidan/Thane/Garrus/whoever, and held off his advances until he had a better idea of their person in general, and vice versa.

It's not rocket surgery science.

So basically the justfication that Shepard could be a homosexual is that he might get mixed signals?From EVERY male potential love interesr??It does feel a little weird

He's a young, virile MARINE and FULL of Testosterone (he does have THE biggest PAIR in the galaxy). And if he gets horney, he is going to seek relief where ever, with whoever (male/female/alien) he can to satisfy his urges. The issue in ME 1 & 2 is that; there is no HUMAN s/s option, only hetero human or with an alien. No one is saying that Shepard is gay nor a lesbian.
What if Shepard is Bi, now what? Issue solved, it is an OPTION, if you take it fine, if you DON'T fine, that is YOUR option, but DON'T deny others the option to even HAVE that option. That is very different than being denied the option to choose. It's a GAME, how you apply it to your personal 'real life' is your business NOT mine nor anyone elses.
Personally, I am attracted to Kaidan  a lot, he is the guy next door, a little brother, someone to watch out for and protect, but he is no wuss and fearless in combat. Yes, he gets THE best armor (Armax Predator L X or Colossus X) , upgrades, Inferno ammo (he likes to 'pop off some incendiaries') & weapons (including the Spectre X Sniper Rifle, which he does like to use) in the game. He is not promiscuous and takes a relationship very exclusive

[ElitePinecone]

Wittand25 wrote...
If the thread would contain encouragement to boycott Bioware games, or to harass Bioware in any other way I would agree that this was uncalled for, but this does not happen, all that does happen is people saying that they would like such content and even suggesting ways on how such content could be included with causing as little as possible disturbance to those who do not want to see such content.

That very eloquently sums up the purpose of this thread. It amounts to a suggestion, not a demand. Bioware has every right to take one look at this whole topic and ignore everything in it - their game, after all. But while we have the space and the means to discuss s/s content and romances generally, I'd like to think that can be done with a minimum of conflict - just as thousands of other suggestion threads manage to do. 

[jedishephard]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Its not about how he died, but the fact that he died. You ever hear about how people change their ways when somebody close to them dies? Its called realization of the fragility of life. They see how life can change and they could die any moment. People tend to think about how they're leading their lives. Its a sort of spiritual awakening. Its affects people who see others die, people who are in serious accidents, those who survive near-death experiences, so why wouldn't it affect somebody who actually did die? He's easily comparable to somebody who just woke up from a coma, because apart from the actualy "dying part", neither are conscious for a very long amount of time while the world just keeps on spinning without them, and everybody keeps on living their lives. I don't mean in any way to offend you with this next statement, but I'm sure if you got in an accident, and woke up two years later to see all your friends and loved-ones move on while the world changed majorly, you'd change a little bit too

i see what youre saying...but is this how you can see them making it available for shep to have s/s? how would they do that then? dlc for me2 and maybe for me1?

[jedishephard]

[quote]MisterDyslexo wrote...

[/quote]

1. Its not any more important than any other, but this is certainly something that a lot of people care about. There are certainly many other changes to be done in ME3, and the people here feel that s/s romances should be one of them. I agree that spending time on s/s romances shouldn't take any special amount of time away from other necessary fields of improvement, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be improved upon.

2. Two reasons really:
A- they've done it historically. Jade Empire, Dragon Age, possibly Baulder's Gate (i can't really remember anything about Baulder's gate to be honest). The first mass effect was supposed to have too with Ashley/Kaiden, but its believed with reason that they cut it out relatively close to mass production (the unused content exists both on xbox and pc disks of the game, as well as digital downloads). they also apparently wanted to do it for mass effect 2 with tali and thane, but that also got cut.

B- Its insulting not to do it in the next mass effect game. The reason being, other than the fact it doesn't represent a people properly, is that they originally had planned for it, as stated above, but cut it out for whatever reasons. A few possible conclusions include blatant homophobia (although that seems unlikely) and fear of impact on sales. A lot of people feel its cowardly not for BW to stick to their guns about this

[/quote]
that doesnt really answer the question i guess what i am asking is if there could only be 2 things the developers would change due to fanbase requests, why should the developers consider this over other things? i understand a lot of people care about this but would you still buy and play ME3 if they didnt include this? 

youre 2a sounds to me like a conspiracy theory to me but if you say so then ok

i am sorry but what? it would be insulting if they didnt? but the first two games were not insulting? I dont get it. If the first game, me1, insulted you then why would you play the game? i am confused now...

[jedishephard]

Siansonea II wrote...

Wanting same-sex inclusion is not the same as wanting the Mako back, or any of the other mundane things people ask about, like inventory, armor, weapons, etc. None of those things have any social implications in the real world. It doesn’t take any courage to take a stand on the Mako vs. the Hammerhead.

And yes, I realize that this is an argument both for AND against our initiative. The natural follow-up from the opposing faction will be “why should BioWare do this if it will cause conflict for them?” Well, clearly there will be conflict regardless, they just have to decide what type of statement they wish to make with their products. And like it or not, no matter what they do, it will make a statement of some kind.

i am sorry but isnt having s/s in the game just as mundane as those things? it would be nice if they included it but when its the end of the day, its not necessary isnt it?
well your 2nd paragraph is kind of redulant isnt it? obiviously bioware is not afraid of including s/s...look at other games..but seeing how i never played any other bioware game expect DA and ME i have to ask was s/s including in the game when the game was made or have they ever included s/s to their games through dlc? but to say that if they dont include s/s in this game will portray them as homophobic when their past says otherwise? i think this is a weak arguement and kind of extreme dont you think?

[Hi Tehk]

This is how i see it. Not all characters in ME should be lesbian i can see Liara and Jack being lesbian LI. But the chance of a male being open to that kind of thing might be harder to find. This is why some squad members should be more evident in this case.



Maybe Ashley could be a full proof lesbian and not romance you if your MaleShep. Or maybe Mordin's perspective on life gave him a bisexual preference.

[iamthespark]

I also played that Ashley/Femshep cracked romance and there was dialogue for ME2 but it was the same dialogue if you were a male. Either way, it carried over, which will be very exciting for ME3!

[MisterDyslexo]

jedishephard wrote...


that doesnt really answer the question i guess what i am asking is if there could only be 2 things the developers would change due to fanbase requests, why should the developers consider this over other things? i understand a lot of people care about this but would you still buy and play ME3 if they didnt include this? 

youre 2a sounds to me like a conspiracy theory to me but if you say so then ok

i am sorry but what? it would be insulting if they didnt? but the first two games were not insulting? I dont get it. If the first game, me1, insulted you then why would you play the game? i am confused now...

The developers have all the right in the world to pick any other aspect over this, but its their choice about what will add to the game. We're not asking for anything extra that the game doesn't already have. The game already has romances, so why not have a same sex one. They had planned it out in the past and it was put into development for both ME1 and ME2. Its is on the disk, but its unused. They already have clearly spent the time to do it, now its just following through.  They've actually wasted money on it and not put it in, whereas the time spent on it could've gone elsewhere

Yes, I would still get ME3 if they didn't include this. Then again, we're at the point where they have an established fanbase. I think I can safely say everyone here will be getting ME3 when it comes out. They just need to focus on pleasing the fanbase. If they came down to having to choose between the time it makes to create a s/s romance, and another gameplay option, they should do whatever they think most of the fanbase want more. This thread is to support that.

Its insulting being they had all the content in the game for it, but they cut it from the final product for whatever reason. Its on all the disks, xbox or pc,  ands its on all the digital download. Just unused. The same thing happened in ME2. A very simple mod can change this, so its clear this was intended to be in the final product. That means they needed a reason to cut it. Most likely it is because they thought that it could affect sales, because (ands this is what I'm thinking their logic was) "we're all little kids who will cry and moan and say the game is icky and ****gy if there is a same-sex romance, even though its optional and initiated by the player."
Its really an insult to our intelligence saying that we cna't handle ourselves and make our own decisions, or that we can't simply disagree with a viewpoint and avoid the content without starting an uproar, like a mature person would.

For the record, I completely see your point of view on this. I'm not gonna start calling you a homophobe or anythig, I see your logic and reasoning. All us here on this thread are asking that this portion of players have their request met for the next game.

[shootist70]

Brodyaha wrote...

If it's already there, why not just keep it?  Surely the payoff would be more worthwhile than cutting it? Or, if it's cut, issue some sort of patch to access the material.  If BioWare is afraid people will not buy a game because you can create a homosexual character, then issue patch, charge some small price like 160 MS/BW points, then they can issue a free patch, or sell it cheaply (160 MS points?  About $2, that's nothing in the long run, really).

Bioware stated that there's no evidence that this sort of content has any impact on sales at all (see my quoted post above). They also stated elsewhere that if they included such content it would be included within the main game and not be punitively distributed as seperate DLC. So I don't think that's where the issue is.

Modifié par shootist70, 01 septembre 2010 - 04:17 .

[Siansonea]

jedishephard wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
*snipped*

i am sorry but isnt having s/s in the game just as mundane as those things? it would be nice if they included it but when its the end of the day, its not necessary isnt it?

You don't think that including potentially controversial content is fundamentally different from vehicle/weapon/inventory content? I don't see 80+ page threads discussing the social implications of the Incisor Rifle.

And no, it isn't necessary, any more than any romance subplot is necessary to the game. We're not holding a gun to anyone's head here, merely asking BioWare to consider adding these options. This thread exists in part to show BioWare that a market exists that would appreciate the consideration. Many of the people opposing this initiative are acting like we are demanding something, when that is actually not the case. We are trying to make a strong argument for inclusion, but ultimately we all realize it's not our decision.

well your 2nd paragraph is kind of redulant isnt it? obiviously bioware is not afraid of including s/s...look at other games..but seeing how i never played any other bioware game expect DA and ME i have to ask was s/s including in the game when the game was made or have they ever included s/s to their games through dlc? but to say that if they dont include s/s in this game will portray them as homophobic when their past says otherwise? i think this is a weak arguement and kind of extreme dont you think?

I simply said that either the inclusion of, or the absense of s/s content will make a statement, not what that statement is. I did not use the term homophobic in my statement. Their actions in upcoming games will show whether they believe it is better to exclude s/s from this game, or better to include it. Beyond that, it is open to interpretation.

And to address the "Mass Effect as art" argument, sorry, but that's kind of a cheat. Yes, video games have an artistic element to them, but they are essentially a product, a product designed to generate revenue. They are not the equivalent of a novel or the Mona Lisa. Mass Effect is a wide-release game, it's an open-ended story with a highly-customizable player character. The entire intent seems to be to create a user-customized Shepard, and have a highly individual experience for the player. To then say that excluding m/m options for that customization was an 'artistic choice' is rather disingenuous. Why give me the option to have a female Shepard, if Shepard is a male space marine that looks like Mark Vanderloo? Why am I able to choose whether he was born on Earth, Mindoir, or a spaceship? Why am I able to decide whether his millitary career was distinguished on Torfan, Elysium, or Akuze? Either Shepard is an open-ended character, or 'he' isn't. It's like giving a bunch of children paper and crayons, but not letting any of them use the color red in their drawings. What's the point of that limitation? How does it benefit the end product? The answer: It doesn't.

[Quething]

iamthespark wrote...

I also played that Ashley/Femshep cracked romance and there was dialogue for ME2 but it was the same dialogue if you were a male. Either way, it carried over, which will be very exciting for ME3!

"Unique" in the sense that it wasn't femShep's "friend" dialog made more suggestive by context (like it is when you talk to Kelly), or Meer's voice (like it would be if the dialog only checked "romanced" and not "romanced, gender"); it's a voiced, coded line that is only accessable via being a femShep with an existing romance with Ashley.

Weird that they put the line in at all, since it's quite polished (more polished than an ME1 s/s romance, in fact, that audio was never properly mastered and has volume issues), given that the only way to get it is to mod. Even weirder that they put that one in and didn't put in the line in the conversation with Joker afterward - he'll give you the right romance responses instead of friend responses, but the romance-only Shep line is unvoiced.

So the Horizon scene does give hope that we can get some s/s content in ME3, even if we have to hack to get it. The Joker convo sort of dashes that hope again. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie] But frankly, I'd happily lose my current mainShep's continuity and replay ME1&2 again totally legit and totally single if BW lets us legitimately start a s/s romance with Ash/Kaidan in future content. They've apparently almost done it twice now. Come on, guys, third time's the charm.

[MisterDyslexo]

Quething wrote...

iamthespark wrote...

I also played that Ashley/Femshep cracked romance and there was dialogue for ME2 but it was the same dialogue if you were a male. Either way, it carried over, which will be very exciting for ME3!

"Unique" in the sense that it wasn't femShep's "friend" dialog made more suggestive by context (like it is when you talk to Kelly), or Meer's voice (like it would be if the dialog only checked "romanced" and not "romanced, gender"); it's a voiced, coded line that is only accessable via being a femShep with an existing romance with Ashley.

Weird that they put the line in at all, since it's quite polished (more polished than an ME1 s/s romance, in fact, that audio was never properly mastered and has volume issues), given that the only way to get it is to mod. Even weirder that they put that one in and didn't put in the line in the conversation with Joker afterward - he'll give you the right romance responses instead of friend responses, but the romance-only Shep line is unvoiced.

So the Horizon scene does give hope that we can get some s/s content in ME3, even if we have to hack to get it. The Joker convo sort of dashes that hope again. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie] But frankly, I'd happily lose my current mainShep's continuity and replay ME1&2 again totally legit and totally single if BW lets us legitimately start a s/s romance with Ash/Kaidan in future content. They've apparently almost done it twice now. Come on, guys, third time's the charm.

There's also s/s Tali and s/s Thane  romance content that was cut, although it wasn't very well done for either of them. They obviously had that on their minds too

[Quething]

shootist70 wrote...

Bioware stated that there's no evidence that this sort of content has any impact on sales at all (see my quoted post above).

For RPG Dragon Age, sure. I don't think it automatically follows that they wouldn't be... gun-shy, pardon the pun, about s/s content in shooter-hybrid Mass Effect, which is aimed at a different, stereotypically more homophobic demographic (the number one insult on Vent/Teamspeak is still "f*g/gay/******" last I checked).

Erroneously so, mind, somebody upthread mentioned "Bully" for example, but folks at the intersection of entertainment and marketing are frequently a conservative, risk-averse lot well past the point of verifiable fact. (Not surprising given the cost of making a game/movie/TV show, but still disappointing.)

Modifié par Quething, 01 septembre 2010 - 05:18 .

[Siansonea]

Quething wrote...

shootist70 wrote...

Bioware stated that there's no evidence that this sort of content has any impact on sales at all (see my quoted post above).

For RPG Dragon Age, sure. I don't think it automatically follows that they wouldn't be... gun-shy, pardon the pun, about s/s content in shooter-hybrid Mass Effect, which is aimed at a different, stereotypically more homophobic demographic (the number one insult on Vent/Teamspeak is still "f*g/gay/******" last I checked).

Erroneously so, mind, somebody upthread mentioned "Bully" for example, but folks at the intersection of entertainment and marketing are frequently a conservative, risk-averse lot well past the point of verifiable fact. (Not surprising given the cost of making a game/movie/TV show, but still disappointing.)

This is why it irks me when people come in here and try to make it seem like BioWare dispassionately decided to exclude m/m content for some 'artistic reason' that has nothing whatsover to do with how homosexuality is viewed in the real world, especially it's target audience. Like it was a decision on par with the lighting design of Afterlife. Call me cynical, but I have a hard time swallowing that.

[Quething]

Even if Mass Effect were pure art, I utterly reject the notion that artists have no social responsibility. Quite the opposite, in fact. Mass entertainment like TV, movies, video games, novels, hell, even the Archie Comics you buy for your eight-year-old at the supermarket checkout - they both reflect our culture, and teach it. It's a big feedback loop. If you're a writer for a game that sells a couple million copies, and your game has an NPC who's interesting and fun and totally compelling to every player who installs it, and who happens to be gay, that's a couple million people who are now a little bit more comfortable with queer people in real life. If your game has a gay NPC who's flat, stereotypical and unlikable (and not even in the good "love to hate" way), that's instead a couple million people who are a little bit less comfortable with queer people in real life. Even if you have a gay cousin and you love the guy and should be totally OK! with gay people because of that, a thousand other negative portrayals in fiction, balanced against just that one cousin, can still add up.

Now Mass Effect is not a raging torrent of homophobia by any means, but I'd still say it's falling on the negative side of the spectrum, and if we allow the idea that Mass Effect is "pure art" with no other concerns involved, I can't imagine why a game developer wouldn't want to improve on that once made aware of it. Is one game going to change the world? Obviously no. It's just a single tiny drop in the Great Lake-sized bucket that comprises our cultural landscape. But speaking as a writer myself, even if all I get is a drop, I'm going to try to make sure that drop is a positive one. I'm going to try to change the way people see the world, if only for a moment, make somebody see something from a new and better perspective, if it only alters an iota of their worldview, because isn't that exactly what "art" is supposed to be about?

Modifié par Quething, 01 septembre 2010 - 06:33 .

[shootist70]

Oh, I'm totally with you on this one, Quething. Corporate creativity often reeks of moral cowardice. I don't buy this 'we're not trying to be a vehicle for social change' cop-out to avoid creative integrity. If your audience consists of millions then you are contributing to it whether you like it or not, and you have a responsibility whether you like it or not. Therefore using one-dimensional stereotypes is effectively perpetuating them, and this should be up for the sort of vicious critical appraisal that you find in any other medium.

For example. take the Rain-man caricature of the autistic guy in the Overlord DLC (I'm not going off-topic here, bear with me!). Sure, there are some autistic folk like that, and there are a hell of a lot that aren't. It's not wholly representative of the condition. Bioware should not have touched the issue with a bargepole unless they were able to give it full treatment and not a misrepresentative one, because otherwise they're perpetuating a ******-poor stereotype to millions of people. Obviously that's not within the scope of a DLC for some sci-fi video game, so they should have exercised their creative integrity and left a complex issue well alone and found some other way to write it.

Exactly the same goes for them using homosexuality to peddle copies of the game to a male audience, with their 'hot lipstick lesbo action' in ME1. They've opened the subject, so unless they're willing to give it a more representative treatment they should be liable for a critical hammering.

Sadly, Bioware know they won't get it, and they know they can get away with it because the games industry isn't subject to that sort of creative and artistic critical appraisal...yet.

Modifié par shootist70, 01 septembre 2010 - 10:54 .

[Fanbus]

This is a work of fiction. As such, it has been written with certain limitations and boundaries that were put in place by the creators. There are no derogatory remarks regarding sexual orientation in the game, so it cannot be said that gay males have been ostracized. The fact of the matter is that this option is, simply, not in the game. It seems as if the purpose of this thread is to force the opinion of one group onto the rest. The creators do not share your views. It is a shame that the OP is seeking tolerance and acceptance towards his/her own ideals and desires when it is being demonstrated that any view contrary to the original post is unacceptable.

I'm in support of that statement 150% It expresses my thoughts precisely.

Quething wrote...
Now Mass Effect is not a raging torrent of homophobia by any means, but I'd still say it's falling on the negative side of the spectrum, and if we allow the idea that Mass Effect is "pure art" with no other concerns involved, I can't imagine why a game developer wouldn't want to improve on that once made aware of it. Is one game going to change the world? Obviously no. It's just a single tiny drop in the Great Lake-sized bucket that comprises our cultural landscape. But speaking as a writer myself, even if all I get is a drop, I'm going to try to make sure that drop is a positive one. I'm going to try to change the way people see the world, if only for a moment, make somebody see something from a new and better perspective, if it only alters an iota of their worldview, because isn't that exactly what "art" is supposed to be about?

You're making some assumptions though.

In only a small part of the world (and I'm not talking in respect to location) is homosexuality considered something "positive". By small part of the world I'm including in the minds of people around you and I as well.

By making a statement (such as you and others in this thread are making) that homosexuality is something positive and should be embraced as equally as hetero relationship you are making a very large assumption. So much so to imply that "an artist has a social responsibilty to influence positive values in the stuff he creates. In so far that they should include homosexuality in a positive light".

And that's non-sense.

Perhaps in your culture or community or in your mind it is positive but in many other cultures it is not. I'm not talking from a religious stand point either. What could be seen as postive here, could be seen as negative in other cultures. Perhaps the writer behind a work sees homosexuality as something negative, have you ever thought of that angle? By negative I don't mean in the bashing go out and kill a homosexual person kind of way. By negative I mean in that they don't wish to promote unions between same gender couples through their works. We have a very long way to go, and I mean very long way before homosexuality will be seen on an equal light to that of heterosexuality throughout the world.

Lets take France for example. Although polls have demonstrated that young people (as much as 75% of those polled) support the idea of same-sex unions (with 51% supporting adoptions rights) it surprises me that it is one of the few European countries to have a strong stance against same-sex unions. To include an outright ban on adoption and child services to same-sex couples. France of all countries would have been the least I'd have assumed have such laws. One case (as recent as 2006) has a law maker suspended for allowing a same-sex union.

I understand that the media may make it seem like homosexuality is becoming the norm. But having worked in the front lines of the issue, it has become more or less a taboo subject where those opposed to the idea don't wish to express their opinion for fear or reprisal. Perhaps that's what the GLBT organizations wanted.

Anyhow without derailling the subject, some of you on this thread are making spurrious assumptions. You cannot assume that a writer sees homosexuality in a positive light. You cannot assume that a writer has a "reponsibility" to teach morality. You cannot assume that a setting has a responsibility to give us a world view in which to strive for or live by.

This is why it irks me when people come in here and try to make it seem like BioWare dispassionately decided to exclude m/m content for some 'artistic reason' that has nothing whatsover to do with how homosexuality is viewed in the real world, especially it's target audience.

I'd like to discuss that Simsonea, can you elaborate on those statements? I don't understand fully.

And to add; there is abolutely nothing to support that Male Shepard could possibly be Homosexual. Nothing, and I'll say again Nothing what so ever. The links to YouTube videos and the links to audio strings prove absolutely nothing. Anyone with enough knowledge, a hex editor, and an audio extractor from the files can put these together. All of the links shown on YouTube where a Male shep is seen courting a male LI are just that. If anything, Shepard comes off as Heterosexual by the lack of love interest options with male NPCs and the only LIs being female. The only evidence we have of a Male Shepard having the possibility of being Homosexual or sexually ambigious are extrapolated and heavily stretched assumptions by those wishing to make an implication.
Its the same method as doing something just because there isn't a rule that states it is illegal to do. In other words, Male Shepard is gay because the game doesn't tell me otherwise. I doubt that would have any effect on some of you though, you'd still argue "sure he says that, but he just hasn't met the right man".

As for Female Shepard having lesbian options. Again I re-state what I said before. She was quite simply fan service to let the demographic this game was targetted for (I'm now leaning towards the GTA IV crowd) have a little fun.

Modifié par Fanbus, 02 septembre 2010 - 04:17 .