9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Simsonea? It's Siansonea. S-I-A-N-S-O-N-E-A. Please spell my name correctly if you wish to have a conversation with me.



I don't know what you really want to discuss. You think that BioWare decided to exclude same sex content because 'they just felt like it'? I don't know what there is to debate, we don't know 'why' they chose to exclude it, and all the discussion in the world isn't going to make a bit of difference in ME1 and ME2.



For what it's worth though, your points about how homosexuality is viewed worldwide are worth considering and worth discussing.

[Nordic Einar]

I understand that the media may make it seem like homosexuality is becoming the norm. But having worked in the front lines of the issue, it has become more or less a taboo subject where those opposed to the idea don't wish to express their opinion for fear or reprisal. Perhaps that's what the GLBT organizations wanted.

Anyhow without derailling the subject, some of you on this thread are making spurrious assumptions. You cannot assume that a writer sees homosexuality in a positive light. You cannot assume that a writer has a "reponsibility" to teach morality. You cannot assume that a setting has a responsibility to give us a world view in which to strive for or live by.

You assume we are particularly concerned with the morals, feelings, and comfort of bigots.

Take your post, and fill in another minority group. Like Blacks. Or Women. Or Asians. Now read it back to yourself.

Still willing to stand by that statement?

Modifié par Nordic Einar, 02 septembre 2010 - 04:40 .

[Siansonea]

Fanbus wrote...

This is a work of fiction. As such, it has been written with certain limitations and boundaries that were put in place by the creators. There are no derogatory remarks regarding sexual orientation in the game, so it cannot be said that gay males have been ostracized. The fact of the matter is that this option is, simply, not in the game. It seems as if the purpose of this thread is to force the opinion of one group onto the rest. The creators do not share your views. It is a shame that the OP is seeking tolerance and acceptance towards his/her own ideals and desires when it is being demonstrated that any view contrary to the original post is unacceptable.

I'm in support of that statement 150% It expresses my thoughts precisely.

How is having same sex options forcing anything on anyone? Is the Tali romance forced on you? No. If you don’t like Tali, you don’t romance her. We’re not asking for Shepard to suddenly be exclusively homosexual regardless of previous LIs pursued. If the creators really don’t want to include it, they don’t have to. We would like them to. We are asking them to. They can choose not to. If they choose not to, we will be disappointed. That’s pretty much where we stand, I think.

Quething wrote...
Now Mass Effect is not a raging torrent of homophobia by any means, but I'd still say it's falling on the negative side of the spectrum, and if we allow the idea that Mass Effect is "pure art" with no other concerns involved, I can't imagine why a game developer wouldn't want to improve on that once made aware of it. Is one game going to change the world? Obviously no. It's just a single tiny drop in the Great Lake-sized bucket that comprises our cultural landscape. But speaking as a writer myself, even if all I get is a drop, I'm going to try to make sure that drop is a positive one. I'm going to try to change the way people see the world, if only for a moment, make somebody see something from a new and better perspective, if it only alters an iota of their worldview, because isn't that exactly what "art" is supposed to be about?

You're making some assumptions though.

In only a small part of the world (and I'm not talking in respect to location) is homosexuality considered something "positive". By small part of the world I'm including in the minds of people around you and I as well.

By making a statement (such as you and others in this thread are making) that homosexuality is something positive and should be embraced as equally as hetero relationship you are making a very large assumption. So much so to imply that "an artist has a social responsibilty to influence positive values in the stuff he creates. In so far that they should include homosexuality in a positive light".

And that's non-sense.

Perhaps in your culture or community or in your mind it is positive but in many other cultures it is not. I'm not talking from a religious stand point either. What could be seen as postive here, could be seen as negative in other cultures. Perhaps the writer behind a work sees homosexuality as something negative, have you ever thought of that angle? By negative I don't mean in the bashing go out and kill a homosexual person kind of way. By negative I mean in that they don't wish to promote unions between same gender couples through their works. We have a very long way to go, and I mean very long way before homosexuality will be seen on an equal light to that of heterosexuality throughout the world.

Lets take France for example. Although polls have demonstrated that young people (as much as 75% of those polled) support the idea of same-sex unions (with 51% supporting adoptions rights) it surprises me that it is one of the few European countries to have a strong stance against same-sex unions. To include an outright ban on adoption and child services to same-sex couples. France of all countries would have been the least I'd have assumed have such laws. One case (as recent as 2006) has a law maker suspended for allowing a same-sex union.

I understand that the media may make it seem like homosexuality is becoming the norm. But having worked in the front lines of the issue, it has become more or less a taboo subject where those opposed to the idea don't wish to express their opinion for fear or reprisal. Perhaps that's what the GLBT organizations wanted.

Anyhow without derailling the subject, some of you on this thread are making spurrious assumptions. You cannot assume that a writer sees homosexuality in a positive light. You cannot assume that a writer has a "reponsibility" to teach morality. You cannot assume that a setting has a responsibility to give us a world view in which to strive for or live by.

You are correct, we cannot assume that the writers share our views about homosexuality. Unfortunately for those of us who support this initiative, many people still have a very negative opinion about homosexuality. I cannot even begin to contemplate why anyone would feel this way, so I won’t bother asking ‘why’ this is. People are uncomfortable with it, for whatever reason. Once again, we can only ask that they include it, but if the subject is too distasteful to them, we are likely to be disappointed.

This is why it irks me when people come in here and try to make it seem like BioWare dispassionately decided to exclude m/m content for some 'artistic reason' that has nothing whatsover to do with how homosexuality is viewed in the real world, especially it's target audience.

I'd like to discuss that Simsonea, can you elaborate on those statements? I don't understand fully.

Homosexuality is generally something that people have an opinion about, one way or the other. People either are accepting of it, or they oppose it. Issues like this don’t lend themselves to indifference. There really is very little credibility to the idea that a group of creative individuals ‘forgot’ to address the issue, or that they excluded it for some innocuous ‘story’ reason. That’s just absurd. You can’t tell me that in the final analysis, it really boiled down to Writer X saying, “guys, I just don’t think gay Shepard works for this, so we’re not doing it.” Whatever the reason for the exclusion (something we can’t know for certain), we can be reasonably certain that this wasn’t it. Proclaiming that “the writer’s just decided not to include it” is a cheap way to try to end the discussion, and really tries to draw the conversation into a spiral of ‘why did they exclude it’ questions, rather than ‘why shouldn’t they include it in future content’.

And to add; there is abolutely nothing to support that Male Shepard could possibly be Homosexual. Nothing, and I'll say again Nothing what so ever. The links to YouTube videos and the links to audio strings prove absolutely nothing. Anyone with enough knowledge, a hex editor, and an audio extractor from the files can put these together. All of the links shown on YouTube where a Male shep is seen courting a male LI are just that. If anything, Shepard comes off as Heterosexual by the lack of love interest options with male NPCs and the only LIs being female. The only evidence we have of a Male Shepard having the possibility of being Homosexual or sexually ambigious are extrapolated and heavily stretched assumptions by those wishing to make an implication.
Its the same method as doing something just because there isn't a rule that states it is illegal to do. In other words, Male Shepard is gay because the game doesn't tell me otherwise. I doubt that would have any effect on some of you though, you'd still argue "sure he says that, but he just hasn't met the right man".

As for Female Shepard having lesbian options. Again I re-state what I said before. She was quite simply fan service to let the demographic this game was targetted for (I'm now leaning towards the GTA IV crowd) have a little fun.

Does MaleShepard ever say “I only like women”? Because I’ve never seen a proclamation like that. Shepard doesn’t even have to talk to people if he doesn’t want to. A person’s Shepard might not talk to ANY of the squad mates between missions, because he’s not interested in any of them. He might just avoid the issue altogether, since obviously there are no same sex partners on the ship. That Shepard very well could be gay. That’s what is great about Shepard, he or she can be whatever you want them to be, and the game at no point to my knowledge forces Shepard to declare himself or herself to be an exclusively heterosexual person. But your argument seems to be saying that because the game doesn’t explicitly state that he could by gay or bisexual, that this omission is tantamount to saying that Shepard could not possibly be gay or bisexual. So what does this mean? Does the absence of an explicit statement mean that Shepard is heterosexual, or does the absence of an explicit statement mean that the issue hasn’t been defined in concrete terms?

[Siansonea]

Nordic Einar wrote...

I understand that the media may make it seem like homosexuality is becoming the norm. But having worked in the front lines of the issue, it has become more or less a taboo subject where those opposed to the idea don't wish to express their opinion for fear or reprisal. Perhaps that's what the GLBT organizations wanted.

Anyhow without derailling the subject, some of you on this thread are making spurrious assumptions. You cannot assume that a writer sees homosexuality in a positive light. You cannot assume that a writer has a "reponsibility" to teach morality. You cannot assume that a setting has a responsibility to give us a world view in which to strive for or live by.

You assume we are particularly concerned with the morals, feelings, and comfort of bigots.

Take your post, and fill in another minority group. Like Blacks. Or Women. Or Asians. Now read it back to yourself.

Still willing to stand by that statement?

Unfortunately, in 2010, it is still somewhat socially acceptable in some circles to have negative attitudes toward GLBT individuals. Many people still have very negative notions about what homosexuality is and what such individuals place in society is. Westboro Baptist Church is a hate group, but they are tolerated, and someone is supporting them. I grew up in Texas, and homosexuality is NOT widely accepted there, even in this day and age, and in many parts of that state, it is even still socially acceptable in certain circles to harbor blatantly racist views. It's all behind the curtain, or course.

[Fanbus]

Nordic Einar wrote...
You assume we are particularly concerned with the morals, feelings, and comfort of bigots.
Take your post, and fill in another minority group. Like Blacks. Or Women. Or Asians. Now read it back to yourself.
Still willing to stand by that statement?

Well given that I am a minority, I would say yes I still stand by the statement. It could have gone either way (replace negative with positive light). The point was stating, "we can't make assumptions".

Now then, you wish to derail this into a Personal views discussion? I thought the folks who sponsored this thread specifically stated you were not supposed to do that? Is it your intent to start personal attacks by calling people who might not agree with your opinions "Bigots"?

You took an example completely out of context. You also pulled the racial card, (similar to using the Na.zi excuse). I'm through having any discussion with you.

Reponding to Siansonea in a moment. (I couldn't spell your name cause I can't see it when I respond)

Modifié par Fanbus, 02 septembre 2010 - 05:15 .

[Nordic Einar]

An Alternate Experiment wrote...

Quething wrote...
Now Mass Effect is not a raging torrent of homophobia by any means, but I'd still say it's falling on the negative side of the spectrum, and if we allow the idea that Mass Effect is "pure art" with no other concerns involved, I can't imagine why a game developer wouldn't want to improve on that once made aware of it. Is one game going to change the world? Obviously no. It's just a single tiny drop in the Great Lake-sized bucket that comprises our cultural landscape. But speaking as a writer myself, even if all I get is a drop, I'm going to try to make sure that drop is a positive one. I'm going to try to change the way people see the world, if only for a moment, make somebody see something from a new and better perspective, if it only alters an iota of their worldview, because isn't that exactly what "art" is supposed to be about?

You're making some assumptions though.

In only a small part of the world (and I'm not talking in respect to location) being black/asian/latin considered something "positive". By small part of the world I'm including in the minds of people around you and I as well.

By making a statement (such as you and others in this thread are making) that being black/asian/latin is something positive and should be embraced as equally as whites you are making a very large assumption. So much so to imply that "an artist has a social responsibilty to influence positive values in the stuff he creates. In so far that they should include blacks/asians/latinsyin a positive light".

And that's non-sense.

Perhaps in your culture or community or in your mind it is positive but in many other cultures it is not. I'm not talking from a religious stand point either. What could be seen as postive here, could be seen as negative in other cultures. Perhaps the writer behind a work sees blacks/asians/latins as something negative, have you ever thought of that angle? By negative I don't mean in the bashing go out and kill a black/asian/latin person kind of way. By negative I mean in that they don't wish to promote unions between bi-racial couples through their works. We have a very long way to go, and I mean very long way before blacks/asians/latins will be seen on an equal light to that of whites throughout the world.

I understand that the media may make it seem like accpetance of blacks/asians/latins is becoming the norm. But having worked in the front lines of the issue, it has become more or less a taboo subject where those opposed to the idea don't wish to express their opinion for fear or reprisal. Perhaps that's what the NAACP wanted.

Anyhow without derailling the subject, some of you on this thread are making spurrious assumptions. You cannot assume that a writer sees blacks/asians/latins in a positive light. You cannot assume that a writer has a "reponsibility" to teach morality. You cannot assume that a setting has a responsibility to give us a world view in which to strive for or live by.

Would this excuse - that the writers simply don't like blacks - ever be seen as an acceptable reason to exclude them from a game? Would this be an ideology anyone would defend as valid? If anyone were to post the above, do you think it would receive much support?

Further - I did not bring *personal* views into this discussion. You did, when you argued that writers being uncomfortable with TEH GAYZ is a reasonable excuse to exclude them. I understand that you took the "would you" in my post as a personal attack, but the "you" was a general one, not a specific one. It wasn't directed at you, personally, but rather at society in general. That was a communication failure on my part. I intended solely to point out the hypocricy and double standard applied to GLBT issues, as opposed to other minority groups.

Not everyone who opposes the inclusion of S/S content is a bigot. But the above post, with homosexuality replaced with race, certainly seems bigotted. I don't doubt that some (or even quite a bit) of opposition to the inclusion of S/S romances *does* come from bigotry. If you could've seen the "Hetero Romances Only" group before it was made private, you'd have seen what I mean. It is *run* by an admitted white supremacist.

There is a double standard here. Try not to be so defensive when someone points it out. It wasn't an attack on you personally.

[MisterDyslexo]

Fanbus wrote...

Anyhow without derailling the subject, some of you on this thread are making spurrious assumptions. You cannot assume that a writer sees homosexuality in a positive light. You cannot assume that a writer has a "reponsibility" to teach morality. You cannot assume that a setting has a responsibility to give us a world view in which to strive for or live by.

A lot of people, including myself, just want Bioware to take a stance on homosexuality in mass effect. It appears they planned for s/s content in ME1 and ME2 (i'm not including kelly, because everybody knows that was a token romance. I wouldn't be surprised if your romance with her doesn't have an effect in the ME3 import), but it was cut for whattever. That seems cowardly of bioware on their part. The reason we want the stance though is because historically Bioware has always done that. There has always been controverials ideas presented in their games, and both sides are presented logically. The geth are such an example, "Is it okay to create artificial intelligence? Does AI deserve to be treated the same as organics with intellectual capacity?'. Its disappointing for Bioware to keep backing down from picking a side. They make the content, but never keep it.

[Fanbus]

How is having same sex options forcing anything on anyone? Is the Tali romance forced on you? No. If you don’t like Tali, you don’t romance her. We’re not asking for Shepard to suddenly be exclusively homosexual regardless of previous LIs pursued. If the creators really don’t want to include it, they don’t have to. We would like them to. We are asking them to. They can choose not to. If they choose not to, we will be disappointed. That’s pretty much where we stand, I think.

Ok Siansonea, I totally agree and support your idea. I think though, you misunderstood my intention in that, I don’t mean “forced on the player”. I think the original person quoted meant “forced on the developer”. That’s what I’m fighting for if you wanted to put it that way.
I’m fighting for creative freedom, free of the pressures of Interest Groups. I’m from California. We have had several interest groups (no I’m not talking about GLBT) force things on us that have actually hurt communities more than helped. I’m not going to list them. But where I draw the line is when interest groups go out of their way to redefine public opinion to the point where an artist (in this case Bioware) is made to feel guilty about not doing (or doing) something. In other words, going so far with the agenda so as to make a creative party feel as if they’ve done something wrong. Creative freedom also includes works that may depict historical accounts. If we were to stunt creative freedom by including modern day moral views we are placing censorship on what an artist can and can’t do.
I think the best way of going about it, is to promote creative freedom rather than strong arm or shoehorn our values into it. This thread (not everyone but a key few) are doing specifically that; attempting to shoehorn or “force” the inclusion of it into the game.
I said the Sims 3 as previous examples of how it wasn’t “forced” in but was a natural progression into the game. You don’t see people having issues with Sims 3 same-sex relationships (perhaps a few back when it was released, but now days you see nothing). The reason being that the developer had creative freedom, free of any interest groups attempting to strong arm them either way. In other words, the Sims 3 (and the other sims series) is an example of how homosexuality works in a video game without upsetting the fans or community and building a “common ground” between those opposed to it and those for it.
It is my opinion that Mass Effect isn’t that game, yet. DA, was closer, but Mass Effect just isn’t there and I believe (as you’ve all seen in my posts) that it wasn’t meant to be.
Now then… I’ve made numerous suggestions on the Wishlist thread on how the next incarnation of ME should be a platform like Sims 3. In that the relationships should have a rolling faction system. I dream of a union between Mass Effect and Sims 3, I’m hopeful someday we get a game like that. In such a system same-sex unions would work seamlessly.

You are correct, we cannot assume that the writers share our views about homosexuality. Unfortunately for those of us who support this initiative, many people still have a very negative opinion about homosexuality. I cannot even begin to contemplate why anyone would feel this way, so I won’t bother asking ‘why’ this is. People are uncomfortable with it, for whatever reason. Once again, we can only ask that they include it, but if the subject is too distasteful to them, we are likely to be disappointed.

I’ve actually read professional papers where some children of kindergarten age had an innate aversion to homosexuality. But that’s a very deep subject for another time and place.

This is why it irks me when people come in here and try to make it seem like BioWare dispassionately decided to exclude m/m content for some 'artistic reason' that has nothing whatsover to do with how homosexuality is viewed in the real world, especially it's target audience.

Homosexuality is generally something that people have an opinion about, one way or the other. People either are accepting of it, or they oppose it. Issues like this don’t lend themselves to indifference. There really is very little credibility to the idea that a group of creative individuals ‘forgot’ to address the issue, or that they excluded it for some innocuous ‘story’ reason. That’s just absurd. You can’t tell me that in the final analysis, it really boiled down to Writer X saying, “guys, I just don’t think gay Shepard works for this, so we’re not doing it.” Whatever the reason for the exclusion (something we can’t know for certain), we can be reasonably certain that this wasn’t it. Proclaiming that “the writer’s just decided not to include it” is a cheap way to try to end the discussion, and really tries to draw the conversation into a spiral of ‘why did they exclude it’ questions, rather than ‘why shouldn’t they include it in future content’.

 
Well I hate to say this but yeah. I doubt they had a discussion specifically about Male Shepards sexuality, but typically that –is- how that stuff goes. They sit around a table discuss the personality, story elements, etc of the character. They then compare it to the resources they have, the time, money, etc and make a decision whether to have it or not.
 
Based on my play throughs of ME, and based on my over all 15+ years of gaming experience, and based on this thread and forum being full of opinions, I say that the game was targeted towards a certain demographic that perhaps wouldn’t have been comfortable with MShep having gay options. That being said, I would say that the subject did come to the table.
 
-We have female-female LIs for Female Shepard. Should Male Shepard have options?
 
Perhaps one of the producers felt it may bring bad press? Perhaps one of the producers or writers wanted to make Male Shepard come across as straight. As I’ve said before, Mass Effect regardless of the customization options you have, has never come across to me as a sandbox platform game like the Sims 3. It comes across as one step further than say Half Life 2 or Lego Star Wars.
 
Why would a producer want Male Shepard to be straight? Aside from personal reasons (and some reasons you’ve stated and I’ve stated) creative license. What I mean by that is, it would allow them to control the relationships Male Shepard would have in a novel, in a film, and in other media they develop based on the franchise.
 
But you’ll say “but that makes no sense since we can customize Shepard how we want including making his moral decisions”
 
Let me be honest here, I have never really thought those generic moral decisions really defined Shepard at all. I mean come on… I don’t really see much of a difference between Renegade Shep and Paragaon Shep. Even so, such differences can easily be combined by a good writer if they decided to have a spinoff media. What I’m trying to say is and perhaps you might not agree; customizing Shepard and moral choices where pretty much flavor or icing on the cake. That is one reason why I’ve never liked games like that and I tend to personally favor sandbox games like the Sims 3 or MMOs. You’re not really playing your character but playing the writer’s character.
 

So what does this mean? Does the absence of an explicit statement mean that Shepard is heterosexual, or does the absence of an explicit statement mean that the issue hasn’t been defined in concrete terms?

 
Exactly, you used the same logic I used. It works both ways. In Grand Thef Auto IV although there were gay characters and such, Niko Bellic makes sure you know he is straight (he is even questioned about it). But in that franchise the developers are pretty open to what they want to do and they make sure you know. Sadly, Bioware doesn’t do that in ME, that is, they aren’t explicit as to the personality of the character you’re playing. I’m not just talking about the gender thing; I’m also encompassing the personality of Shepard.
 
That being said, although you are right that they don’t say one way or another; isn’t it strange to you that we’ve had two games so far and in neither game does Male Shepard have romance options with a male LI? In so far that ME2 even cut back on the LI choices?

[Fanbus]

Nordic Einar wrote...

stuff...

The reason why I didn't want to bring that arguement to the table:
-It would shift the focus of this dicussion into hyperbole equating race with sexual orientation and divulge into personal beliefs.
-and two, it would have divulged into a slippery slope where I could turn it around and say:

"Well I don't see many blacks in asian games, particularly the really popular ones. The ones that are included seem shoehorned and out of place".

I'm probably just as equaly vehement for blacks in video games as you are about gays in video games. But I feel a lot stronger about creative freedom being free of the shackles of interest groups. Hence why taking the argument in that direction wouldn't have worked. It also would have relied on assumptions; what issues we feel strongly for or against.

[Edit] One other thing I wanted to add.

That game to your left, Warhammer Online. You know that they changed the character models for the Asian version because they felt it wouldn't sell well over there. So the original european designs were redone by a localization team to be more appealing to the demographic over there. How wouldn't you like it if you poured your heart and soul into a creative peice, and do to political reasons (or in this case business ones) they changed your work to something else. Your creative work, your handicraft is not important. Styming of creative freedom continously happens in the entertainment industry. The end result is what we have now days with the nearly generic, washed up, uninspiring film industry.

Modifié par Fanbus, 02 septembre 2010 - 06:20 .

[Nordic Einar]

You're proving my point, though. You have no problem making that argument when it pertains to homosexuals, but won't make the same argument for race.



There is a double standard. "They're icky" is acceptable justification to exclude homosexuals in things, but it won't fly for racial minorities. Because of this, I think it's a weak argument - equally steeped in the speculation you say you abhor - and shouldn't be used to justify the lack of S/S content.



Further, you have no problem arguing that "personal beliefs" can be a factor in DISALLOWING S/S content, but don't want to "delve into personal beliefs" when it comes to arguing for their inclusion. This, again, speaks of a cultural acceptance for the exclusion of homosexuals.



Remember, I am not posting to be critical of you as a person. I'm attempting to point out the social acceptance of homosexual exclusion, and how it would never fly for other minority groups.



Further, the argument that "The writers/Vanderloo/whomever" are anti-gay is suspect already, simply because there is so much GLBT content left over in the code that was cut at the last minute. If one of the writers wasn't comfortable with GLBT content, I find it hard to believe that they would go so far as to *code it into the game* and then remove it. Regardless, it's baseless speculation and is ultimately irrelevant. We can't know the intentions of Bioware here, and thus should avoid using the personal beliefs of the developers as justification for the removal of S/S content.



Especially when there are so many more compelling arguments for why it was removed.

[Siansonea]

Fanbus wrote...
*snipped*
Ok Siansonea, I totally agree and support your idea. I think though, you misunderstood my intention in that, I don’t mean “forced on the player”. I think the original person quoted meant “forced on the developer”. That’s what I’m fighting for if you wanted to put it that way.
I’m fighting for creative freedom, free of the pressures of Interest Groups. I’m from California. We have had several interest groups (no I’m not talking about GLBT) force things on us that have actually hurt communities more than helped. I’m not going to list them. But where I draw the line is when interest groups go out of their way to redefine public opinion to the point where an artist (in this case Bioware) is made to feel guilty about not doing (or doing) something. In other words, going so far with the agenda so as to make a creative party feel as if they’ve done something wrong. Creative freedom also includes works that may depict historical accounts. If we were to stunt creative freedom by including modern day moral views we are placing censorship on what an artist can and can’t do.
I think the best way of going about it, is to promote creative freedom rather than strong arm or shoehorn our values into it. This thread (not everyone but a key few) are doing specifically that; attempting to shoehorn or “force” the inclusion of it into the game.
I said the Sims 3 as previous examples of how it wasn’t “forced” in but was a natural progression into the game. You don’t see people having issues with Sims 3 same-sex relationships (perhaps a few back when it was released, but now days you see nothing). The reason being that the developer had creative freedom, free of any interest groups attempting to strong arm them either way. In other words, the Sims 3 (and the other sims series) is an example of how homosexuality works in a video game without upsetting the fans or community and building a “common ground” between those opposed to it and those for it.
It is my opinion that Mass Effect isn’t that game, yet. DA, was closer, but Mass Effect just isn’t there and I believe (as you’ve all seen in my posts) that it wasn’t meant to be.
Now then… I’ve made numerous suggestions on the Wishlist thread on how the next incarnation of ME should be a platform like Sims 3. In that the relationships should have a rolling faction system. I dream of a union between Mass Effect and Sims 3, I’m hopeful someday we get a game like that. In such a system same-sex unions would work seamlessly.

I sincerely doubt that BioWare feels any guilt whatsoever about this decision. And for all we know no one at BioWare is even reading this thread or has our initiative on their radar at all.  We can ask, they can answer, or they can ignore. Not a lot we can do about it. And there’s little chance that we’re going to successfully hijack their creative license with our humble little thread here.

*snipped*
Well I hate to say this but yeah. I doubt they had a discussion specifically about Male Shepards sexuality, but typically that –is- how that stuff goes. They sit around a table discuss the personality, story elements, etc of the character. They then compare it to the resources they have, the time, money, etc and make a decision whether to have it or not.
 
Based on my play throughs of ME, and based on my over all 15+ years of gaming experience, and based on this thread and forum being full of opinions, I say that the game was targeted towards a certain demographic that perhaps wouldn’t have been comfortable with MShep having gay options. That being said, I would say that the subject did come to the table.
 
-We have female-female LIs for Female Shepard. Should Male Shepard have options?
 
Perhaps one of the producers felt it may bring bad press? Perhaps one of the producers or writers wanted to make Male Shepard come across as straight. As I’ve said before, Mass Effect regardless of the customization options you have, has never come across to me as a sandbox platform game like the Sims 3. It comes across as one step further than say Half Life 2 or Lego Star Wars.
 
Why would a producer want Male Shepard to be straight? Aside from personal reasons (and some reasons you’ve stated and I’ve stated) creative license. What I mean by that is, it would allow them to control the relationships Male Shepard would have in a novel, in a film, and in other media they develop based on the franchise.
 
But you’ll say “but that makes no sense since we can customize Shepard how we want including making his moral decisions”
 
Let me be honest here, I have never really thought those generic moral decisions really defined Shepard at all. I mean come on… I don’t really see much of a difference between Renegade Shep and Paragaon Shep. Even so, such differences can easily be combined by a good writer if they decided to have a spinoff media. What I’m trying to say is and perhaps you might not agree; customizing Shepard and moral choices where pretty much flavor or icing on the cake. That is one reason why I’ve never liked games like that and I tend to personally favor sandbox games like the Sims 3 or MMOs. You’re not really playing your character but playing the writer’s character.

Well, maybe there is very little concrete difference among various Shepards, but the characterization lends itself to allowing the player to embellish their Shepard’s motivations and background on their own. Not every second of Shepard’s life is shown, so it’s easy to imagine what type of person an individual Shepard is, and approach the game from that person’s perspective. I have six Shepards, and even if many of them say the exact same lines, they all feel very different to me.

I guess my point is that it seems odd that homosexuality is a variable that is somehow qualitatively different from Shepard’s gender, ethnicity, background, military service, morality, etc. To me, it should simply be another optional avenue for a given Shepard. It’s like saying you can customize every aspect of Shepard’s facial appearance, but all Shepard’s MUST have blue eyes. What about people who like brown eyes? Doesn’t such a decision seem to unnecessarily limit the player’s options? After all, no one is harmed because I want my Shepard to have brown eyes. Obviously I can’t strong-arm the developers into doing ANYTHING, but I can put forth as many ideas as I can come up with, and hopefully make them reconsider the issue.
 

*snipped*
 
Exactly, you used the same logic I used. It works both ways. In Grand Thef Auto IV although there were gay characters and such, Niko Bellic makes sure you know he is straight (he is even questioned about it). But in that franchise the developers are pretty open to what they want to do and they make sure you know. Sadly, Bioware doesn’t do that in ME, that is, they aren’t explicit as to the personality of the character you’re playing. I’m not just talking about the gender thing; I’m also encompassing the personality of Shepard.
 
That being said, although you are right that they don’t say one way or another; isn’t it strange to you that we’ve had two games so far and in neither game does Male Shepard have romance options with a male LI? In so far that ME2 even cut back on the LI choices?

It is strange, and that’s why this thread exists. We know they didn’t just forget to include it, they chose not to include it. We ask them to reconsider that decision. Whether they do or not remains to be seen, but it is my hope that if they choose to implement same-sex content, it will be part of a comprehensive push to improve ALL aspects of the game.

[Fanbus]

I guess my point is that it seems odd that homosexuality is a variable that is somehow qualitatively different from Shepard’s gender, ethnicity, background, military service, morality, etc. To me, it should simply be another optional avenue for a given Shepard. It’s like saying you can customize every aspect of Shepard’s facial appearance, but all Shepard’s MUST have blue eyes. What about people who like brown eyes? Doesn’t such a decision seem to unnecessarily limit the player’s options? After all, no one is harmed because I want my Shepard to have brown eyes. Obviously I can’t strong-arm the developers into doing ANYTHING, but I can put forth as many ideas as I can come up with, and hopefully make them reconsider the issue.

And that right there is where personal opinions diverge. You are making homosexuality be as equally relevant as the choice of hair, or the color of the wall. In other words how far do people in general value sexual orientation. Like a weight system, giving more or less weight to different attributes:
-Body type
-Skin color
-Cultural background
-Sexual orientation.
-etc

The other poster attempted to equalize the topic of race with the topic of gender orientation. Vote results of Prop 8 demonstrated that those who voted yes to prop 8 where largely made up of minorities (to include the black and hispanic communities). GLBT groups lashed at minority groups for their lack of support. That's one example of how the issue cannot be equalized or assumed to be something as simple as your choice of pants.

 What if Male Shepard has a very close connection to one of the designers? What if Male Shepard is a reflection of one of the designer's own personalities? We haven't discussed that angle. Perhaps that designer sees himself as Shepard going around the galaxy conquering deus ex machina villains. Perhaps that designer isn't comfortable with taking a relationship far with another man? Perhaps that designer likes lesbian porn, but has a problem with homosexual activity?

There's a lot of erroneous misinformation regarding homosexuality (both postive and negative). We can't assume that it's a light switch for most people. I'd argue that its a very important issue that goes beyond culture and upbringing.

[Nordic Einar]

Fan, I hate to say it, but most of the erroneous information regarding homosexuality is coming from you.



Your point regarding the racial makeup of Prop. 8 supporters is a red herring, and ultimately irrelevant. Whether or not homophobia exists more in one community or another does not affect, in the slightest, the intrinsic or natural status of homosexuality. Because it is an intrinsic, unmodifiable characteristic that occurs naturally in individuals, it is absolutely comparable to race when it comes to it's exclusion. Whether or not racial minorities are friendly to gays has nothing to do with this fact, and serves only to distract from the issue.



I ask, once more - if someone were to ask "What if the designer simply doesn't like black people. Doesn't that justify there being no black people in the game? Isn't that within his artistic liscence?" would you accept this as a valid reason to exclude black people, both as the PC and as NPC's, within the game?



What if every designer is white? What if male Shepard is a reflection of one of the designer's own race? Perhaps the designer seems himself as the (white) hero, saving the universe. Maybe he isn't comfortable with black people. Would this even be remotely considered an acceptable reason to exclude blacks from the game?



Answer those questions, Fan. Or don't. Continued omission is just another answer in the negatory.

Ultimately, if someone is uncomfortable with homosexuality in his game - he does not have to pursue that option. The inclusion of S/S content has no negative effect on the game, and has a positive effect towards those who would use that content. David Gaider's addressed this quite eloquently.

[Top55]

Personally I just don't think that any of the characters lend themselves towards being bi or gay.  That's pretty much a big part why I'm against it (along w/ personal beliefs that won't be stated here).

[Nordic Einar]

Why, exactly, do you feel that way? That the characters "don't lend themselves to being bi or gay"?

[Fanbus]

Nordic Einar wrote...

Fan, I hate to say it, but most of the erroneous information regarding homosexuality is coming from you.

Neither. What I ment by that statement was a broad term encompassing literature about the subject. Its relevant to my post because it had to do with how people weigh the importance of homosexuality. In that the information deciminated about homosexuality (postive or negative) may effect people's view on the subject.

Your point regarding the racial makeup of Prop. 8 supporters is a red herring, and ultimately irrelevant. Whether or not homophobia exists more in one community or another does not affect, in the slightest, the intrinsic or natural status of homosexuality.

It was an example of how we cannot conlude that the issue of Homosexuality is not the same as the issue of Race. For me to support that, would require a lot more time and effort that I am willing to give this. Additionally it would side track the issue into something else. I told you specifically I did not wish to take the discussion there.

Because it is an intrinsic, unmodifiable characteristic that occurs naturally in individuals, it is absolutely comparable to race when it comes to it's exclusion. Whether or not racial minorities are friendly to gays has nothing to do with this fact, and serves only to distract from the issue.

You have no conclusive proof of that. The papers that are out on the subject are still on the fence. That is what I refered to above on "erroneous information". Debating that would require it's own subject.

I ask, once more - if someone were to ask "What if the designer simply doesn't like black people. Doesn't that justify there being no black people in the game? Isn't that within his artistic liscence?" would you accept this as a valid reason to exclude black people, both as the PC and as NPC's, within the game?

Yet again you've turned the question around so as to single out a person and make that person targetable by others in the forum. By now a moderator should be warning you about that particularly in this thread. Typically a different poster would then start taking offence and start slinging insults, but I won't give you the luxury.

Standing up for what I believe, my answer is yes. As long as that designer has the freedom to design what he wishes or write what he wishes, even if it is pro-na.zi propaganda, in a fair goverment I would have the write to do the opposite. You would have the right to do what you wish.

What if every designer is white? What if male Shepard is a reflection of one of the designer's own race? Perhaps the designer seems himself as the (white) hero, saving the universe. Maybe he isn't comfortable with black people. Would this even be remotely considered an acceptable reason to exclude blacks from the game?

Again see my response above. Is it fair? No, but he has just as much right as I and you have to write our own. It is up to me to decide if I wish to buy it or not. No where have I been told "You MUST buy this game or else". I have many options out there. If I find something offensive, I don't buy it.

By the way folks, this post has absolutely nothing to do with the discussions in this thread. My main focus are the comments I put fourth earlier. This derailment was caused due to having to defend myself against the questions posed by Nordic Einar. If you were wondering why no one gives any credible counter arguments or wishes to be involved or why posts like these end up getting locked or derailed, posts like this man is making are the reason why.

Nordic Einar on three posts so far have continually attempted to make your posts turned around so that they target me specifically. You're very good at it. Given that I've no interest in further entertaining you I'll refrain from answering your posts.

Modifié par Fanbus, 02 septembre 2010 - 08:31 .

[Fanbus]

Nordic Einar wrote...

Why, exactly, do you feel that way? That the characters "don't lend themselves to being bi or gay"?

Why exactly, should you care? Do his answers have anything to do with the thread topic and would it advance the inclusion of same sex content in the game? Like I stated earlier, you're again wrangling posters who have opposing views. You wrangle them so that they become isolated and end up having to post personal opinions which can then become controversial or targetted by the Mods.

Perhaps that's not your intent, but it certainly feels that way.

Maybe I don't know the intent of the thread. Trust me, I won't post anymore if the intent of the thread is for pro support only. I've no problem with that and I'll respect that. That being said I've had some pretty good discussions with the folks here as to why the content should be included, shouldn't be, could be, or wasn't. In no case have I targeted people's personal opinion on the homosexuality issue. I've offered my opinions in support of my suggestions and assumptions in regards to the game I purchased. I haven't singled out any one poster's personal moral view as you've done with me. I half expected the thread would be void of it given that the OP stated to avoid that. Although she later went on to add "if anyone has an opposing view please explain why". That right there was a loaded statement that invariably would lead to controversy if someone was to do so.

Modifié par Fanbus, 02 septembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

Lol...that this thread is still going amazes me. Established characters aren't all of a sudden going to turn bent. Fact.

Keep on hoping for a new character, but know that it's a vain hope...

file:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-7.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-8.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-9.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-10.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-11.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-12.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-13.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-14.png
file:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-4.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-5.pngfile:///C:/Users/JAMESJ%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-6.png

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 02 septembre 2010 - 08:27 .

[Wittand25]

Honestly I don't think that a, or some of the developers being uncomfortable with this topic is an explanation for its omission. The people working at Bioware are professionals after all and portraying things that you do not necessarily like or endorse in real life in their work is part of their job. Now the omission of s/s-content can have various reasons like "We did not feel like it", resource limitations or other things like trying to avoid romance overkill by having four LIs per Shepard in ME2.

If it is the first mentioned reason, it raises the question why did they feel like it and this thread can be seen as a request to rethink that. Of course wether rethinking this issue changes the availability of s/s content is another matter.

If the reason was lack of resources, the number of supporters here (as well as the surprising number of players following the s/s romances in DA:O, no matter their reason for this) shows that resources on this issue would be well spend, and that variation amongst the LIs that goes beyond skin-color and personality is something that matters to many players.

[Fanbus]

One of the reasons why I stated it could be a reason for it's ommision (not definitive by any means) was that on at least three other occasions by other developers (SOE, Square Enix, Funcom), they have expressed in interviews their personal influence on characters. That's not to say Bioware did or didn't, I've just come to think that some developers put a lot of personal investment in story characters. Like I said before, I'm of the opinion that ME is a set game as opposed to an open sandbox game.

[shootist70]

Fanbus, in western society you don't get to morally police creative content. You also can't argue that only particular interpretations of moral majority should be represented in creative content. Thank god that artists and creators of all kinds fight that sort of thinking every day.



Homosexuality is a human rights issue, it's not up for moral interpretation by people who 'don't like it'. It's also not up for exclusion on the same grounds. The chances are that mature content for a general western audience is often going to offend somebody somewhere, yet If it's not illegal then you only need to concern yourself with two things: critical appraisal and/or self censorship. Basically, if you don't like it don't play it, or write a damning critique and see if you can freelance it to a publication that's interested. Don't make the mistake of demanding that the content should subjectively represent certain moral perspectives.



However, the same is also true for those desiring s/s content. It's not right to demand it's inclusion from a creator. You still have only the same option of self-censorship and/or critical appraisal.



Having said that I'm pretty sure that most folks posting in suport of this thread know that, and are requesting the content, not demanding it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[Wittand25]

Fanbus wrote...

One of the reasons why I stated it could be a reason for it's ommision (not definitive by any means) was that on at least three other occasions by other developers (SOE, Square Enix, Funcom), they have expressed in interviews their personal influence on characters. That's not to say Bioware did or didn't, I've just come to think that some developers put a lot of personal investment in story characters. Like I said before, I'm of the opinion that ME is a set game as opposed to an open sandbox game.

But this kind of reasoning only works for predefined characters (like Geralt from the Witcher )or NPCs, as soon as you can select gender, background, race and behavior of the toon (like you can with Shepard),the idea that the toon is some kind of wishfullfillment for the Developers falls flat.

Modifié par Wittand25, 02 septembre 2010 - 08:51 .

[Fanbus]

Having said that I'm pretty sure that most folks posting in suport of this thread know that, and are requesting the content, not demanding it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Totally in agreement. However I only stated that it was my stance on the matter in general. As long as all our creative rights are respected I'm cool. I stated that although artists have creative freedoms in the west as you mentioned, I've seen numerous examples (in California) where interests groups actually had an effect on what an artist could or couldn't do.

Now that I think about it, maybe that's blowing this issue way out of proportion. I think I'm going to take what Siansonea said a bit more seriously.

But this kind of reasoning only works for predefined characters (like Geralt from the Witcher )or NPCs, as soon as you can select gender, background, race and behavior of the toon (like you can with Shepard). The idea that the toon is some kind of wishfullfillment for the Developers falls flat.

See that's where I'm on the fence. I know a lot of you folks see ME as an open game whereby you're free to create your own version of Shep and such. But I'm not so sure. You quote the Witcher example and I'm almost leaning more towards that than the other. In the three run throughs of ME2 and the two run throughs of ME1 now, I never felt Shep was mine the way I did when I played NWN or DA:O. I think that's the foundation of a lot of my arguments.

Modifié par Fanbus, 02 septembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[ElitePinecone]

Can I politely point both of you back to the original point of this thread: to discuss what kinds of s/s options could be available, and how they may be implemented. Discussing the social status of homosexuality as compared to race is leading this thread down a potentially dangerous and wildly irrelevant path. This is not a thread for discussing the advantages or costs of implementing same-sex romances - there are other places to explore these topics.



I'm not trying in any way to shut down what has been a very civil debate - my only concern is that you guys are veering into areas that are off-topic and have the potential to become nasty, especially given the volatile nature of the interweb.