9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Whatever42]

So Muzyka is fine with gay relationships in DA but all of a sudden turns all homophobic in ME? I don't buy it. It's actually possible to craft a character who is not gay without being a raving homophobic. And it is legitimate that they view Shepard as more as a defined character than the largely blank slate provided in DAO.



Even if you think Shepard could easily be defined as homosexual, and I don't disagree with you since I think Shepard is a not a terribly strong character and any definition of sexuality would be very secondary to the story, I do think its a huge leap to accusing of Muzyka being some sort of gay hater.

[Boombox]

Ah yes, gay men, we have dismissed that claim.

Way to completely avoid the question and spin more crap.

[Quething]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

How about a game of bull****? Seems fitting.

Five aces.

Anyway, I'd really rather not have more characters brought in for ME3, because there are simply too many potential returnees to do justice to any of them already, but if a new queer character were introduced, what kind would I like? Hmn. On the female side, let's have a turian CQC specialist (I know an alien is a bit of a cop-out, but there need to be female turians, dammit), somebody who's solely soldier-class and actually has the class skills to back up shotgun use without dying (so more Wrex/Grunt/Ashley than Tali/Jacob/Jack). Personality-wise, she should be mostly Lawful Neutral and kind of zen, a bit more the "average" turian than the ones we already know, somebody very practical and always looking out for the good of the group who can end up having interesting disagreements with both paragons and renegades because of it (I like romances with disagreements, like paragoning Garrus or arguing with Miranda about Cerberus).

For a male character, how about a bit of the Kelly setup, where he's not actually a squadmate? It doesn't have to make him less of a character (Joker has probably more lines and definitely more character development and story relevance than Garrus in ME2) - he could be the pilot/mechanic of whatever vehicle replaces the Mako/Hammerhead, so you can go down and talk to him in the garage, and he'll tell you about himself and his past, or you can hear his commentary during missions while you're in the tank. He should be funny, but kind of in a goofy way, where he's always making bad puns or "so a Spectre walks into a bar" jokes. The cast already has dry humor, sarcastic humor, and mocking humor more than covered, we don't need more, and anyway we're deliberately avoiding anything that could begin to resemble "catty" here.

Modifié par Quething, 06 septembre 2010 - 07:28 .

[ElitePinecone]

Quething wrote...

Anyway, I'd really rather not have more characters brought in for ME3, because there are simply too many potential returnees to do justice to any of them already

I'd tend to agree, but the mechanics of the way ME2 ended means new characters are almost required. With the number of possible ME2 squadmates returning in ME3 ranging from 2 to 12 (in hundreds of combinations), it would be extremely difficult and resource-intensive to write and record dialogue for characters that may not even appear, not to mention the gameplay difficulties of having a squad that varied so greatly. To my mind, for the sake of gameplay and simplicity it's likely Bioware will consign previous squadmates to cameos and introduce a fresh bunch of potential love interests squadmembers.

As for romance options? Preferably not a Zevran-esque charming rogue/assassin... 

[catabuca]

DanaScu wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

http://xbox360.ign.c.../1066954p2.html

Thought you might find this interesting.

-Polite

However the predefinied same background/personality female character is open to having a ss romance with Liara.

Oh wait. That doesn't count. Liara isn't female.

Or is he saying that maleShep is pre-defined, and femShep is more open? ::wonders if someone needs a larger shovel::

This. A thousand times this.

I have no right to tell the developers of Mass Effect that the way they see the characters is wrong, because they developed them. However, if the line from the interview above is used (as it has been before) as a way of explaining away why there is no male s/s options in ME then I DO have the right to call them out on it. The developers of ME can say Liara isn't female until they are blue in the face (pun intended) - the fact remains that regardless of how the Asari see themselves, Shepard, and the players of ME, are human, and as such sees Liara as female in form. Add to that - Asari are described in the codex as an all-female race. Do the developers see manShep and Liara's romance as anything other than a male-female relationship? No, I didn't think so.

And so, we end up with the plain truth that when femShep and Liara have a relationship it is - on the basis of the codex, the same possible relationship with manShep, and the way Asari physically look, act and speak to us as humans - they are having a lesbian, female-female relationship.

So to use the line in the article above as an excuse to avoid any male-male relationships in ME is dishonest on BioWare's part. They are either using it as an excuse to avoid the 'icky issue', or they really aren't clever enough to engage their brains and understand what the characters THEY WROTE are doing.

[ElitePinecone]

Just a quick heads up regarding that article, it was written in February (over 7 months ago) and from it appears from his answer that Ray Muzyka wasn't expecting the question. A response from Casey Hudson to the same question was similarly mostly PR spin - I don't think this was any sort of reasoned reply to the question that was asked or the issues that were raised.

[catabuca]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Just a quick heads up regarding that article, it was written in February (over 7 months ago) and from it appears from his answer that Ray Muzyka wasn't expecting the question. A response from Casey Hudson to the same question was similarly mostly PR spin - I don't think this was any sort of reasoned reply to the question that was asked or the issues that were raised.

I know that. Doesn't make it any less of a dishonest reply though, all things considered. Regardless of how under pressure you are, how unexpected a question is, you have the option to tell the truth, tell part of the truth, or make up an excuse, and be dishonest.

[Siansonea]

So my question now is: Will human m/m s/s relationships be represented AT ALL in future ME games? Or has Ray Muzyka’s ME universe been cleansed of such things? Maybe Shepard is too much of a pre-defined man/woman/spacer/colonist/war hero/sole survivor/paragon/renegade, but did the rest of the universe drink the same anti-gay Kool-Aid? There could be a gay couple on the Citadel, wanting to adopt a child or trying to catch a thief or something, giving my macho space marine Marcus Fenix clone an opportunity to snicker loudly at Gay Homosexuals and bark about what a Super Manly Man he is because he doesn't practice teh gay secks. Even that would be better than the “lalalalalalala gays don’t exist lalalalalalala” approach they’re using now. It would be more honest, at least.

And if Shepard is so pre-defined, why isn't FemShep exclusively lesbian? After all, if Shepard is Shepard no matter what, why should gender matter? He or she should be interested in women only, since HE is interested in women only. Why is it that just because FemShep is female, suddenly Miss Predefined is open to a relationship with Kaidan, Jacob, Garrus and Thane? And why have ANY LI options at all? Isn't this predefined character only interested in Tali/Dat Ass?

Can’t have your cake and eat it too, Muzyka. Either Shepard is pre-defined, or ‘he’ isn’t. SO tired of these attempts at spin. You got it wrong, reporters called you on it, and you don’t have a leg to stand on because it just came down to the fact that you didn’t want it in the game for personal reasons. I’m sorry your audience isn’t stupid enough to buy your inept attempts at spin.

[Tirigon]

Siansonea II wrote...


And if Shepard is so pre-defined, why isn't FemShep exclusively lesbian? After all, if Shepard is Shepard no matter what, why should gender matter? He or she should be interested in women only, since HE is interested in women only. Why is it that just because FemShep is female, suddenly Miss Predefined is open to a relationship with Kaidan, Jacob, Garrus and Thane? And why have ANY LI options at all? Isn't this predefined character only interested in Tali/Dat Ass?

Can’t have your cake and eat it too, Muzyka. Either Shepard is pre-defined, or ‘he’ isn’t. SO tired of these attempts at spin. You got it wrong, reporters called you on it, and you don’t have a leg to stand on because it just came down to the fact that you didn’t want it in the game for personal reasons. I’m sorry your audience isn’t stupid enough to buy your inept attempts at spin.

Siansonea, you win. You should interview Muzyka, it would be fun to see what he responds to that:police:

[Wittand25]

Siansonea II wrote...
Can’t have your cake and eat it too, Muzyka. Either Shepard is pre-defined, or ‘he’ isn’t. SO tired of these attempts at spin. You got it wrong, reporters called you on it, and you don’t have a leg to stand on because it just came down to the fact that you didn’t want it in the game for personal reasons. I’m sorry your audience isn’t stupid enough to buy your inept attempts at spin.

We do not know who decided to not include s/s content in the two ME games and for what reason this decision was made, please stop making assumptions and worse even accusations about that. The answer Mr. Myzaka gave is similar to the answers Mr. Hudson gave a bad attempt to dodge a question they did not expect and have a good answer for, but just because they do not have a good answer, does in no way imply that the worst possible answer has to be true.
There are other reasons why same sex content was partially made/planned but never fully developed. Those reasons can range from being somewhat valid ( if obviously misguided) to downright ignorance ( regretful but nowhere near as bad as homophobia). Assuming that it is really the worst case scenario would not only squash any hope for future inclusion, but would also be unfair towards Bioware as a company, that has been quite inclusive of GLBT characters for a game developer.

[catabuca]

Siansonea II wrote...

So my question now is: Will human m/m s/s relationships be represented AT ALL in future ME games? Or has Ray Muzyka’s ME universe been cleansed of such things? Maybe Shepard is too much of a pre-defined man/woman/spacer/colonist/war hero/sole survivor/paragon/renegade, but did the rest of the universe drink the same anti-gay Kool-Aid? There could be a gay couple on the Citadel, wanting to adopt a child or trying to catch a thief or something, giving my macho space marine Marcus Fenix clone an opportunity to snicker loudly at Gay Homosexuals and bark about what a Super Manly Man he is because he doesn't practice teh gay secks. Even that would be better than the “lalalalalalala gays don’t exist lalalalalalala” approach they’re using now. It would be more honest, at least.

And if Shepard is so pre-defined, why isn't FemShep exclusively lesbian? After all, if Shepard is Shepard no matter what, why should gender matter? He or she should be interested in women only, since HE is interested in women only. Why is it that just because FemShep is female, suddenly Miss Predefined is open to a relationship with Kaidan, Jacob, Garrus and Thane? And why have ANY LI options at all? Isn't this predefined character only interested in Tali/Dat Ass?

Can’t have your cake and eat it too, Muzyka. Either Shepard is pre-defined, or ‘he’ isn’t. SO tired of these attempts at spin. You got it wrong, reporters called you on it, and you don’t have a leg to stand on because it just came down to the fact that you didn’t want it in the game for personal reasons. I’m sorry your audience isn’t stupid enough to buy your inept attempts at spin.

Have I told you I love you recently?

I wonder, do any of the devs even venture anywhere near this thread anymore?

[catabuca]

Wittand25 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Can’t have your cake and eat it too, Muzyka. Either Shepard is pre-defined, or ‘he’ isn’t. SO tired of these attempts at spin. You got it wrong, reporters called you on it, and you don’t have a leg to stand on because it just came down to the fact that you didn’t want it in the game for personal reasons. I’m sorry your audience isn’t stupid enough to buy your inept attempts at spin.

We do not know who decided to not include s/s content in the two ME games and for what reason this decision was made, please stop making assumptions and worse even accusations about that. The answer Mr. Myzaka gave is similar to the answers Mr. Hudson gave a bad attempt to dodge a question they did not expect and have a good answer for, but just because they do not have a good answer, does in no way imply that the worst possible answer has to be true.
There are other reasons why same sex content was partially made/planned but never fully developed. Those reasons can range from being somewhat valid ( if obviously misguided) to downright ignorance ( regretful but nowhere near as bad as homophobia). Assuming that it is really the worst case scenario would not only squash any hope for future inclusion, but would also be unfair towards Bioware as a company, that has been quite inclusive of GLBT characters for a game developer.

I understand what you're saying. However, in the face of either utter silence or half-mumbled dishonest excuses it's not surprising we might fear the worst now and again. When dealing with an issue that is clearly emotive, it's difficult to remain placidly neutral about it all the time.

[CShep25]

Remember when everyone in this thread resolved to keep a lid on their grievances regarding no-same-sex romances and not let BW-hate get the better of them? And when we agreed not to so quickly brand people or staff as homophobic because they disagreed? In Shepard's words; 'Keep it civil, people.' Let's not spread disingenuous assertions and wild accusations against Bioware over this topic. Remember, this thread was intially aimed as a polite request for ME3 and a discussion on how these romances could be implemented, not a demand that the developers do it with an overinflated sense of entitlement. Because keep slandering Ray and Chuddy, and this thread will get locked and I doubt you'd want to see that.

[Siansonea]

catabuca wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So my question now is: Will human m/m s/s relationships be represented AT ALL in future ME games? Or has Ray Muzyka’s ME universe been cleansed of such things? Maybe Shepard is too much of a pre-defined man/woman/spacer/colonist/war hero/sole survivor/paragon/renegade, but did the rest of the universe drink the same anti-gay Kool-Aid? There could be a gay couple on the Citadel, wanting to adopt a child or trying to catch a thief or something, giving my macho space marine Marcus Fenix clone an opportunity to snicker loudly at Gay Homosexuals and bark about what a Super Manly Man he is because he doesn't practice teh gay secks. Even that would be better than the “lalalalalalala gays don’t exist lalalalalalala” approach they’re using now. It would be more honest, at least.

And if Shepard is so pre-defined, why isn't FemShep exclusively lesbian? After all, if Shepard is Shepard no matter what, why should gender matter? He or she should be interested in women only, since HE is interested in women only. Why is it that just because FemShep is female, suddenly Miss Predefined is open to a relationship with Kaidan, Jacob, Garrus and Thane? And why have ANY LI options at all? Isn't this predefined character only interested in Tali/Dat Ass?

Can’t have your cake and eat it too, Muzyka. Either Shepard is pre-defined, or ‘he’ isn’t. SO tired of these attempts at spin. You got it wrong, reporters called you on it, and you don’t have a leg to stand on because it just came down to the fact that you didn’t want it in the game for personal reasons. I’m sorry your audience isn’t stupid enough to buy your inept attempts at spin.

Have I told you I love you recently?

I wonder, do any of the devs even venture anywhere near this thread anymore?

It has been awhile, 'buca. And yeah, I doubt the devs are paying attention, since the matter is apparently "settled".

[Siansonea]

CShep25 wrote...

Remember when everyone in this thread resolved to keep a lid on their grievances regarding no-same-sex romances and not let BW-hate get the better of them? And when we agreed not to so quickly brand people or staff as homophobic because they disagreed? In Shepard's words; 'Keep it civil, people.' Let's not spread disingenuous assertions and wild accusations against Bioware over this topic. Remember, this thread was intially aimed as a polite request for ME3 and a discussion on how these romances could be implemented, not a demand that the developers do it with an overinflated sense of entitlement. Because keep slandering Ray and Chuddy, and this thread will get locked and I doubt you'd want to see that.

Sorry, I just get riled when I hear MarketingSpeak. These interview answers simply make no sense, unless you're coming from a mental space that is simply wrongheaded. It has nothing to do with politics or homophobia, it's just biology. Sexual orientation is hardly a bigger divide than gender, for crying out loud. If Shepard's gender is up for grabs, then his or her orientation ought to be the player's choice as well. When someone comes along and makes a claim like this, it just gets under my skin. People actually buy this line of reasoning? Well, I suppose people have believed more stupid things, so I shouldn't be surprised.

[zvbxrpl]

What Siansonea said. I think the BioWare execs are trying to duck controversy. Which is silly, because I really don't see why giving players an RP option they've had in most other BioWare games is all of a sudden controversial. I understand that ME2 is getting a lot of sales because it's got less of the love-it-or-hate-it nitpicking of a more traditional RPG, but not all shooter fans are brain-dead. Just look at BioShock--storywise, that was an intelligent game. The media ****storms are, as a rule, the fault of some underinformed and overconcerned parents, or wannabe parent-figures to the 'youth of today,' whatever that means. These are not people that your average gamer listens to, and that goes double for the demographic that the new combat in ME2 is attracting.



As for teenage boys being squeamish about getting hit on by digital guys, I think the genuine homophobia of the developers' generations is making them see a lot of the homophobic tough talk of teens today as something more than it actually is. For every teen who really has a genuine hatred of gay people, there are nine who are just putting on a show. Maybe they say f** just because they think it's edgy (see also: every 4chan thread ever). Maybe they're trying to appear manly or gain the approval of someone they think they need to impress. Maybe they're trying to figure out where they themselves stand sexually (trust me, when you're first really thinking about sex, "What turns me on?" is a big, big question), and really don't want to like sex with men, so they overcompensate (in this case, you don't even have to actually be attracted to men to worry that you are). Point is, all of that stuff gets outgrown. Having grown up in a time where homosexuality is more accepted than ever before (admittedly, we've got miles to go before we sleep) does not get outgrown. I think a lot of these teenagers will, as soon as they hit adulthood, if not simply college-age, have ditched a lot of that adolescent posturing and realize that they never actually had anything against gays and lesbians. I've actually got a personal anecdote to tell about this.



I had a friend in highschool, let's call him 'Larry,' who threw around all the anti-gay slurs you could imagine. He even came up with a few new ones (gaymosexual is one that we still use, with a great deal more irony than back then). When I was 15, I mentioned to someone, in earnest, that I thought I might be bi. It turns out that I wasn't, but that I'd fallen afoul of that inane cultural meme that all emotional intimacy and/or physical displays of affection are inherently sexual, but that's beside the point. Someone else, who I thought might be kind of an OK guy, let's call him 'Jackbert' overheard and went off on me about how god had a plan and that I was insulting god for even thinking that. I told 'Larry' about this, and he just said of 'Jackbert,' "Well, cross that a**hole off your list of friends." That's all there was to it.

[Mister_Shepard]

 Just put one bi character in the game like Zevran so these people can STFU 

[Cootie]

Mister_Shepard wrote...

 Just put one bi character in the game like Zevran so these people can STFU 

Whether we like it or not, this person speaks the truth. >_<

[Poaches]

Considering zevran's general reception; that is... ill advised.



After all we all remember that dumb quote; since the reception was so bad, maybe they should stop trying.



In all seriousness though, no one has yet questioned on why hetero exclusive LI's are okay but the inverse by far is something so vile that should never see the light of day em ?



Not like bi-characters haven't been written to death as a prop for sexual titillation already.

[DanaScu]

Cootie wrote...

Mister_Shepard wrote...

 Just put one bi character in the game like Zevran so these people can STFU 

Whether we like it or not, this person speaks the truth. >_<

No, not really. Considering some of his other insightful comments in other threads and other polls, it was a "drive-by post" that had no real reason behind it. I got the impression that Zevran is not really the type of character most posters in this thread are hoping for, really.

What seems to be pretzel logic is that Liara apparently counts a female for maleShep, but not female for femShep. Oh well. The joys of reading interviews where the replies aren't necessarily written and checked ahead of time. When that interview was new, I remember wondering going "huh what?"

[Agamo45]

Shepard is straight get over it.

[Tirigon]

Agamo45 wrote...

Shepard is straight get over it.

Both my FemShep and her lover Kelly disagree.

Some might say Liara disagrees, too.....

[BeastMTL]

Agamo45 wrote...

Shepard is straight get over it.

NEVER! :devil:and f/f relationships are in both game so you're wrong.

[Cootie]

DanaScu wrote...

Cootie wrote...

Mister_Shepard wrote...

 Just put one bi character in the game like Zevran so these people can STFU 

Whether we like it or not, this person speaks the truth. >_<

No, not really. Considering some of his other insightful comments in other threads and other polls, it was a "drive-by post" that had no real reason behind it. I got the impression that Zevran is not really the type of character most posters in this thread are hoping for, really.

What seems to be pretzel logic is that Liara apparently counts a female for maleShep, but not female for femShep. Oh well. The joys of reading interviews where the replies aren't necessarily written and checked ahead of time. When that interview was new, I remember wondering going "huh what?"

Well, I'll blame my lack of sleep for the invisible irony of my post. I should've stuck to the original, vague "has a bit of a point". But yeah, I hope you get the idea.

If they had just given us a gay interest-option in ME-2, none of this rage-talk would've happened. And seeing that interview, I must admit that it is difficult to hold back the bubbly steam of "HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT YOU ARE WRONG"-rage.

Which is why I have rendered my response to the interview a simple "Oh, u, Bioware. U so random." and roll my eyes like only disappointed mothers do when their children stuff cookie dough into the toaster.

TL;DR version: Below is the important bit. Above = Nerdrage.

Also, to kind of steer this discussion back on track:
Is there not a single male homosexual character in either games? Not one NPC who's experimented with another man?
I thought I remembered at least a reference to gay men, but I can't recall. Would anyone care to correct me or enlighten me? O.o

Modifié par Cootie, 06 septembre 2010 - 11:20 .

[DanaScu]

Cootie wrote...
Well, I'll blame my lack of sleep for the invisible irony of my post. I should've stuck to the original, vague "has a bit of a point". But yeah, I hope you get the idea.

If they had just given us a gay interest-option in ME-2, none of this rage-talk would've happened. And seeing that interview, I must admit that it is difficult to hold back the bubbly steam of "HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT YOU ARE WRONG"-rage.

Which is why I have rendered my response to the interview a simple "Oh, u, Bioware. U so random." and roll my eyes like only disappointed mothers do when their children stuff cookie dough into the toaster.

TL;DR version: Below is the important bit. Above = Nerdrage.

Also, to kind of steer this discussion back on track:
Is there not a single male homosexual character in either games? Not one NPC who's experimented with another man?
I thought I remembered at least a reference to gay men, but I can't recall. Would anyone care to correct me or enlighten me? O.o

I don't believe so in the games. In the books, yes.

Agamo45 wrote...

Shepard is straight get over it.

So you go along with the "Liara isn't a female" line, I guess.

When maleShep romances not-female Liara, that makes him what?

If you think Liara is female however, then a few of my ME femSheps have some
really bad news for you and your theory about Shepard being
straight.....

Of course, you could also be one of the "only default Sheploo is really Shepard" people too. Which is a whole different thing.

Modifié par DanaScu, 07 septembre 2010 - 12:11 .