9243 réponses à ce sujet

[CShep25]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Dragonikus wrote...

You can also feel free to give me examples of Bad ass homosexuals. I'll be glad to apologise for my mistake and wont feel ashamed while doing so.

Albus Dumbledore.
What do I win?

Sam Adama slicing people up with knives in Caprica. Here, have a picture:

Cash prize plz.

Modifié par CShep25, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:58 .

[Ryzaki]

CShep25 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Dragonikus wrote...

You can also feel free to give me examples of Bad ass homosexuals. I'll be glad to apologise for my mistake and wont feel ashamed while doing so.

Albus Dumbledore.
What do I win?

Sam Adama slicing people up with knives in Caprica.
Cash prize plz.

*googles*

Oh. Such hotness wasted on a crazy.

[ElitePinecone]

CShep25 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Dragonikus wrote...

You can also feel free to give me examples of Bad ass homosexuals. I'll be glad to apologise for my mistake and wont feel ashamed while doing so.

Albus Dumbledore.
What do I win?

Sam Adama slicing people up with knives in Caprica.
Cash prize plz.

You both win one internets.

Dragonikus: Apart from assuming Shepard is male (not true), you're assuming that homosexuality equals weakness or abnormality, and that galactic heroes can't be gay (although lesbian would be fine, right?). I know you're not trying to be offensive, but that is the impression you're giving. To be blunt, this is incorrect. Badassery is not dependent on sexuality, gender, race, religion, etc, etc. Neither is strength or courage. 

[Homebound]

I can see FemShep going for same-sex romances. But not MaleShep. To me, MaleShep being gay is too much of a stretch. Maybe Kaidan, but not MaleShep.

[Dragonikus]

It is just very difficult to express yourself when talking about such a controversial topic.

I also have a feeling that lots of people that helped creating this topic are trying to ignite a flame war, as if they were trying to show that straight people are angry, rude, lacking tolerance and therefore homosexuals win.



You can tell me I am wrong, but in a polite manner. The way Mr ElitePinecone did. Otherwise you are making this personal.

Also by insulting someone, anyone, you are "lifting" his defences, therefore increasing his pride, and he wont admit that he is wrong.

I am not gonna tap my foot saying "Mine is right", because we are all human.

I will still say that Sheppard should not be gay. And yes, I am talking about Male Sheppard. Female Sheppard does not exist to me, to be honest. Not that I hate it, I just dont accept it's existence. And dont call me sexist. I am a man playing a man, because it feels right to me and thats how I enjoy it. Its better to be sure of something. That way I dont have to think whether Sheppard is male or female in the books, or say "He,She" every time I talk about ... her or him.

[Ziggy]

It would be an option. If your sheppard is not gay then you would simply ignore it. If you can ignore femsheps existence, i'm sure you can manage that without trouble.

edit: I call sheppard a she so I sort of get what you mean there. Everyone decides for themselves who sheppard is.

Modifié par Em23, 15 septembre 2010 - 12:32 .

[CShep25]

Dragonikus wrote...

I will still say that Sheppard should not be gay. And yes, I am talking about Male Sheppard. Female Sheppard does not exist to me, to be honest. Not that I hate it, I just dont accept it's existence. And dont call me sexist. I am a man playing a man, because it feels right to me and thats how I enjoy it. Its better to be sure of something. That way I dont have to think whether Sheppard is male or female in the books, or say "He,She" every time I talk about ... her or him.

There. You just fixed it for yourself. There is the possibility to play as femshep, but you ignore it and stick with maleshep. That's fine. Now if you're given the possibility to play as gayshep, just do the same. Ignore it and stick with heteroshep. There. Done. Gayshep doesn't exist for you anymore, you can continue playing Mass Effect as your heteroshep.

[Nordic Einar]

How about some *real world* GLBT badasses?

Lt. Col Victor Fehrenbach - USAF Fighter Pilot

88 Combat Missions in Iraq/Afghanistan
2,100 Total Flight Hours
1,487 Fighter Hours
400+ Combat Hours

"He has received eight air medals, one for Heroism, and was hand-picked to protect the Washington, D.C. airspace after 9/11. He flew combat missions in Iraq and Afghanistan, targeting the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

His reward? Being discharged – just two years short of retirement – because he is gay.'"

There you go. A real life Lt. Col, decorated 8 times by the USAF with 400+ combat hours in Iraq. And he's gay. Not that it affected his ability to successfully complete some 88 combat missions - in fact, his being gay was only an issue when someone outted him and he was removed from the military.

This is true of thousands of GLBT soldiers every single year. Combat veterans. Men and women who have bled (or even died) for the USA.

There are plenty of gay badasses, and you don't even have to look to fiction to find them.

EDIT

Anyone else notice how when someone says something really offensive and ignorant about race or sexuality, they always follow it up with (BUT I HAVE A GAY/BLACK/ASIAN/WHATEVER FRIEND, SO I'M TOTALLY NOT BEING OFFENSIVE OR PREJUDICED).

Modifié par Nordic Einar, 15 septembre 2010 - 12:48 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Just_mike wrote...

I can see FemShep going for same-sex romances. But not MaleShep. To me, MaleShep being gay is too much of a stretch. Maybe Kaidan, but not MaleShep.

See now this is the kind of comment I like seeing, because I want to ask you why you see that as a stretch, and then you could answer. Maybe I could ask questions about how you play shepard, like "Do you play as the default maleShepard? Do you always romance somebody?" etc etc, and we, the supporters of the thread, could learn about legitimate reasons people are against s/s romances (or just m/m romance in your case) instead of flaming everybody who comes on the thread with an opinion

So, be honest, why don you see Shepard as being gay such a stretch?

[CShep25]

Nordic Einar wrote...
Anyone else notice how when someone says something really offensive and ignorant about race or sexuality, they always follow it up with (BUT I HAVE A GAY/BLACK/ASIAN/WHATEVER FRIEND, SO I'M TOTALLY NOT BEING OFFENSIVE OR PREJUDICED).

Yeah. I'm sick to death of the mentality that a sentence like that gives people free reign to say the most idiotic and offensive of piles of drivel. I don't care who your friends are, it doesn't change the fact you shouldn't have said it.

Besides, ANYONE can say I've got a *minority* friend, it just doesn't neccessarily have to be the truth. I myself have a sexually ambiguous alien friend.


Prove me wrong.

[Ziggy]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Just_mike wrote...

I can see FemShep going for same-sex romances. But not MaleShep. To me, MaleShep being gay is too much of a stretch. Maybe Kaidan, but not MaleShep.

See now this is the kind of comment I like seeing, because I want to ask you why you see that as a stretch, and then you could answer. Maybe I could ask questions about how you play shepard, like "Do you play as the default maleShepard? Do you always romance somebody?" etc etc, and we, the supporters of the thread, could learn about legitimate reasons people are against s/s romances (or just m/m romance in your case) instead of flaming everybody who comes on the thread with an opinion



So, be honest, why do you see Shepard as being gay such a stretch?

Also, you can make your shep heterosexual, so why does it matter so much?

[stewie1974]

Cartims wrote...

It's bad enough I can't find romance in real life.......at least give it to me in MY GAMES! Geez I pay enough for them, maybe I should get a hooker instead of Me3.

Prehaps you should.... living out fantasies vicariously through computer games is not healthy. Personally I'd like "friendships" to be able to develop to a really good stage with out you "romancing"....  I'd like to be bro's with garrus...but once I've got to a certian stage with him on male shep or femshep ... its either a dead end, or a romance option....  why can't we have friends...

Also why can't I be polyogmyist..... why can't I have a threesome with miranda and jack or tali..... see where I'm going here...

[Nordic Einar]

Polyamory is not comparable to sexuality, anymore than monogamy is. Nice red herring.

[stewie1974]

Nordic Einar wrote...

Polyamory is not comparable to sexuality, anymore than monogamy is. Nice red herring.

the same nanny code prevents it becoming an option for a western game don't it?

Modifié par stewie1974, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:52 .

[Nordic Einar]

stewie1974 wrote...

Nordic Einar wrote...

Polyamory is not comparable to sexuality, anymore than monogamy is. Nice red herring.

the same nanny code prevents it becoming an option for a western game don't it?

One is an intrinsic quality, and one is actually a life choice. They're not the same thing - arguments against polyamory is an argument against behavior. Arguments against homosexuality are arguments against nature.

[stewie1974]

funny, they said the same thing about gay people..

You say it's a "choice" that's interesting......why is infidelity so high if polyamory is not "natural"


Monogomy is a choice... it's also a choice that is forced upon people by soceity..... Hey, I've no problem with letting your male shep bugger or be buggered by Jacob... why are you forcing a moral code of monogmous sexual relationships on the rest of us?

Modifié par stewie1974, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:56 .

[Nordic Einar]

You're talking to someone who *IS* polyamorous, stewie. Polyamory isn't any more natural than monogamy is. They're social constructs. Like all social constructs, they differ between societies.



Homosexuality has a basis in both biology and genetics. Same/Sex attraction is universal across all species, and has a biological origin.



I choose to have multiple, long term partners. I don't choose to homosexual. Either way, it's irrelevant - it's a slippery slope fallacy, and a red herring. It's not what this thread is asking for or discussing, and if you want to talk about it further you should pm me. We're derailing the thread.

[stewie1974]

well it's not a "choice" you have in game is it?

[PsyrenY]

stewie1974 wrote...

well it's not a "choice" you have in game is it?

Congratulations, your keen detective skills have uncovered the purpose behind this thread.

Boy, we sure can't pull one over on you.

[Quething]

yorkj86 wrote...

Apollo & The Midnighter are gay.  If you'd like to call them un-masculine for that, let me just stand waaaaaaaay over here.

Well, Kev manages to get away with it, neh?

... what, on-topic? I'm supposed to be on-topic? Okay. LotSB SPOILERS FOLLOW: Tali's suit-log LotSB dossier is very, very clearly written explicitly for a Tali-maleShep romance. You can timeline it out to the progression of the romance (they've done so in the Tali thread), it deals a lot with Tali's sexual behavior and interest in human sexuality, it shows the same uncertainty and hesitance she displays in her romance which really doesn't manifest in her personality when she's doing anything else. And for whatever reason - most likely, a bugged flag, but who knows, I suppose there's a slim chance it's intentional - this dossier will show up not only regardless of whether you're romancing her or not, but also regardless of whether you're even maleShep or not.

Now, if you play as a femShep, this is one of three hints toward s/s behavior in the ME universe that LotSB gave us. The other two are al-Jilani macking on an asari (conclusive) and Gavorn sitting on a bed while a male human approaches him (IMO, only barely suggestive, to be honest, though I'll still take it over nothing). I'd put this one somewhere in the middle; if you really despise Occam's Razor, you can stretch it to "she's curious about femShep's relationship with Thane/Garrus/Jacob out of sisterly curiousity," but "stretch" is the operative word here.

So. Is this a bug? If it is a bug, how does that impact whether or not it's "canon" and whether or not BioWare will follow up? Do we want them to take it and run, opening Tali up to s/s romance in future content off this potentially accidental stepping-stone, or is it better to introduce new characters instead? END SPOILERS

In fact, that's a good general question, which I think we've mentioned a bit before but not really gotten into: given a choice, what would be the better move on BioWare's part? Taking an existing love interest (presumably one who had at least the groundwork at one point, like Thane, Tali, Jack, or the Virmire Survivors) and opening that character up to same-sex romance, or introducing an entirely new character? Or, alternately, opening up an existing non-LI character (like Joker or Kasumi) for same-sex romance, as ME1 non-LI Garrus and Tali were opened to het romance in ME2?

It seems like a tricky balance. Returning characters are inherently superior IMO simply because there won't be room to give new characters the depth standing characters have with such a large cast to handle. That said, I know there are a lot of fans of those characters who are vehemently opposed to any suggestion of s/s action by that character, and who'd get pretty pissed at BW for "changing/retconning" their favorite that way. Then again there are Liara fans who hate that femShep can romance her, too, but they still like the character and buy the games and DLC, so maybe that's not as much of an obstacle as one might think? I dunno, guys. Thoughts?

Modifié par Quething, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[javierabegazo]

Dragonikus

you have been temp banned for your trolling post on page 97.

If you intend on posting like that again in this thread, your ban will be severely increased.

[ElitePinecone]

Quething wrote...
In fact, that's a good general question, which I think we've mentioned a bit before but not really gotten into: given a choice, what would be the better move on BioWare's part? Taking an existing love interest (presumably one who had at least the groundwork at one point, like Thane, Tali, Jack, or the Virmire Survivors) and opening that character up to same-sex romance, or introducing an entirely new character? Or, alternately, opening up an existing non-LI character (like Joker or Kasumi) for same-sex romance, as ME1 non-LI Garrus and Tali were opened to het romance in ME2?

It seems like a tricky balance. Returning characters are inherently superior IMO simply because there won't be room to give new characters the depth standing characters have with such a large cast to handle. That said, I know there are a lot of fans of those characters who are vehemently opposed to any suggestion of s/s action by that character, and who'd get pretty pissed at BW for "changing/retconning" their favorite that way. Then again there are Liara fans who hate that femShep can romance her, too, but they still like the character and buy the games and DLC, so maybe that's not as much of an obstacle as one might think? I dunno, guys. Thoughts?

A tricky balance is a diplomatic way of saying it

To my mind, the number of people who would be uncomfortable or outrightly hostile to 'retconning' or 'gay-ifying' previously available squadmates (Virmire survivor, Thane, Tali, etc) would be enough to dissuade this option as realistic or palatable. Even as an ardent supporter of s/s romances, I'd feel somewhat reticent if Bioware 'opened up' a previous LI to same-gendered Shepards (say, through DLC) without an adequate justification. As it is I'm fairly sure that ME2 squadmates will not be romance interests in ME3 (even if they survived) - except for a surviving ME2 LI. 

The same logic would presumably apply for ME/ME2 characters that weren't originally meant to be romance options, despite Bioware thrusting Shiala and Parasini on mShep in ME2. For characters like Joker, a transformation into a LI - especially a same-sex one - wouldn't go down too well in certain circles. Compromise is definitely a good thing in this area. 

The 'safest' and easiest option, for my mind, would be new characters in ME3. For reasons which are long and complicated (but basically boil down to: some ME/ME2 squadmates could be dead, so carrying them over would be a logistical nightmare), I'm betting at the moment that a new squad will be needed for ME3 - or at least a few new available characters to pick from (if we're assembling a team ourselves).

Each option has its advantages and drawbacks - some people would be satisfied by none of them, no matter which side of the fence they sit on. 

[DrBobcat]

((At ninety-eight pages, this thread is incredibly long. Apologies in advance if anything I say is redundant))

I strongly agree that same-sex relationships should be explored further in the Mass Effect universe. The reasons why are many. For one, the setting takes place in the future. While the Earth has become ravaged by environmental issues and is barely able to handle the human population at its current size, the social landscape seems to have undergone its own changes. By today's standards, religion seems almost a non-issue in the 22nd century. In addition, the racial composition of the alliance military serves as just another example of how progressive the human race has become by this point. Now, given these bits of information, why can we not assume that same-sex relationships are acceptable as well? When femShep hooks up with Liara in ME1, does anyone mention a thing about it? I bet the instances of homophobia in ME (1 or 2) could be counted on one hand, or even none at all. Sure, you could argue that the Asari technically do not comply with typical male/female sex categorizations and thus a female having a relatonship with one could not be considered homosexual. Really? Have you looked at them? They define feminity (at least, in a physical sense). Bioware knows this and I'm sure any of the straw-grabbers do too.

Weak arguments like these, combined with a number of contradictory statements made by Bioware, just illuminate the full scope of the controversy. Why could players construct their characters so liberally in Dragon Age, but not ME? Bioware has claimed that it is the two franchises operate on a different framework and that the character designs in Mass Effect are far more rigid (read: Mass Effect characters exist outside the scope of Shepard's decisions in some respects. They "are who they are" regardless of what your Shepard is). In response to this I simply say, "What?" Why do we have so much evidence to the contrary? There are plenty of audio samples (and hell, even fully animated scenes) in the game that clash with these claims...

MaleShep/Thane Romance Audio
FemShep/Tali Romance Audio
FemShep/Tali Romance Scene (LotSB)

Bioware, why are you so afraid of walking down this path? Did Fox News scare you that badly? If so, I ask again why you took such risks with Dragon Age: Origins, a game you recently announced is your most successful? If it sounds like I'm angry, it's because I am. These are fantastic titles and they definitely set the bar for the genre today. It's just hard to tolerate hypocracy of this magnitute from those with so much power at their fingertips. You have the chance to make a real statement here, and even to further the gaming medium as a whole. Why throw it away?

The 'safest' and easiest option, for my mind, would be new characters in ME3. For reasons which are long and complicated (but basically boil down to: some ME/ME2 squadmates could be dead, so carrying them over
would be a logistical nightmare), I'm betting at the moment that a new squad will be needed for ME3 - or at least a few new available characters to pick from (if we're assembling a team ourselves).

While the discussion of team composition in ME3 is best left to other threads, I agree with you. It would be a completely believable time for Bioware to "save face" and introduce characters of differing sexual orientations in the next game. I believe this is already hinted at with Gavorn in the LotSB video archives. A little late to the party, sure, but I suppose that is better than nothing at all.

To further the discussion, I'll ask a question: would it be enough to take a previously straight character (say Tali or Jack) and allow them to romanced by a same-sex Shepard in the next game? Or is it our goal to have characters that are attracted only to those of the same sex? While it is far easier to make everyone bisexual (at least, from a technical/financial point-of-view), I can also see why that could be an immersion breaker for some. If a line must be drawn then, where do we do so? Personally, I believe that "bisexualizing" everyone (or mostly everyone) would be a reasonable solution, even if it was unrealistic. I just hope BW is still looking closely at this issue.

~DrBobcat

Modifié par DrBobcat, 15 septembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[ScotGaymer]

Sorry im just completely gobsmacked at that guy coming on here and saying homosexuality is unnatural and that being gay is simply a mental problem (implying its not genetic and can be "cured").



I am so beyond offended. I am stunned.



Even worse he compounds the offense by declaring "he has a gay friend". If he does the gay friend is either unaware that he thinks the gay is a freak, or is a complete fool. Or he is lying and doesnt have a gay friend at all. No gay would be friends with someone who thinks they are unnatural, freakish, and mentally ill.



Id say thats so offensive. But in this day and age its actually beyond offensive into, "people really still think like that? in spite of the decades worth of studies and investigations proving that homosexuality is a genetic quirk (like having a third nipple) and not an illness to be cured? really?"



Thank you very much to Javier for banning him.



I mean just -wow- at that guys intolerance.



Thank you again Javier.