9243 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

Fit, he was just a troll. No need to dwell on it.



I'm very glad Dragon Age was their most successful title; add that to David Gaider's post that the m/m content was used quite a bit, and I have resounding hope for humanity and ME yet.



Are the DA team and ME team in the same building? If so, can we get Priestly and Gaider in a room together to discuss the possibility of gays in the future and the "tyranny of the majority" as Gaider so eloquently put it?

[ScotGaymer]

I read somewhere that the development team for DA was in Edmonton or Vancouver and the development team for ME is in Texas.



If true it explains a lot dont it?

[Pacifien]

No, ME is being developed in Edmonton/Montreal. It's The Old Republic MMO that's being developed in Austin, Texas. Austin is also surprisingly liberal, home of SXSW and with a ridiculous influx of Californians.

[PsyrenY]

Indeed, Austin and Houston are very progressive (I have friends from both areas.) They tend to avoid mentioning the smaller towns though.

But I still wish Gaider had creative input into ME

[Siansonea]

I think it's refreshing sometimes when a raging homophobe comes in and rants unintelligibly. I think we all have a tendency to think that people couldn't possibly think like that anymore, but the reality is that there are plenty of people like this. We need to be reminded that in spite of decades of social revolution and centuries of scientific discovery, many people cling to ideas that formed around Neolithic campfires and watering holes.



I'm heartened by LotSB's inclusion of the FemShep/Liara romance continuation, and the way it was handled was great. If upcoming DLC for Mass Effect at least acknowledged m/m romance, that would be even better.

[PsyrenY]

I loved Liara's f/f romance too (Or is that f/u?) Very, very well-done.



But my favorite part was fairly small - the hint (hoping to GOD it's not a red herring!) that Captain Gavorn is gay/bi.



A gay turian is a dream come true for me. A gay turian that's into male humans, even better. A gay turian that's into humans and carries around a huge ****ing sniper rifle just makes me want to dance in the street!



I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop on this one (or perhaps worse, for that vid to never be referenced again) but I'm holding out hope regardless.

[JockBuster]

Pacifien wrote...

No, ME is being developed in Edmonton/Montreal. It's The Old Republic MMO that's being developed in Austin, Texas. Austin is also surprisingly liberal, home of SXSW and with a ridiculous influx of Californians.

And what is wrong with Californians? I am a First Generation American, mom & dad were Canadian citizens married in Manitoba, and native Californian. I also served in the U.S. Army so my take on the game is a little different than most.
Some asked about a "gay BadAss," try Alexander the Great for one.
I am gay but MY Commander Shepard is not, period. I don't want him to be, but I DO want him to be able to romance Kaidan and turn him Renegade (gives him a whole different personality) without having to play as a female impersonator, and yeah I do have several FemSheps just to see where BW takes the story, same for MaleShep & Liara. 
edited: (gives him a whole different personality)

Modifié par JockBuster, 15 septembre 2010 - 06:19 .

[Radahldo]

I don't think he's intending disparage Californians there.

Modifié par Radahldo, 15 septembre 2010 - 05:12 .

[Siansonea]

I don't think there was an anti-California sentiment either. I'm originally from Texas, sixth generation, and I've lived in northern California as well as Colorado, where I currently live. If there's one thing I've learned from living in such disparate locales, it's that if you look hard enough, you can find idiots in ANY state.

[PsyrenY]

I think the "influx of Californians" comment was meant as an illustration for how liberal Austin is compared to other towns in Texas.

Anyhow, enough civics - back on topic.

yorkj86 wrote...

I said it before, and I'll say it again - the addition of non-heterosexual sexual preferences to ME1/ME2 squadmates should only be done if it is respectful to the character and its development.  Without there being any precedent for such a change, it cheapens pretty much everything.

I'm not sure what you mean by "precedent." A large number of people do not even think about engaging in homosexuality until very late in life. They've grown up being conditioned by their parents, friends, society etc. to say, "find a nice girl and settle down" - and many of them go out and do this without ever considering if it's what they really want.

Pretty much all of your squadmates have had very busy adult lives. Neither Miranda nor Garrus thought of settling down with anyone till you came along. Thane was briefly smitten by a woman he promptly left at home to continue his career as walking weapon. Jack doesn't even know what a serious relationship IS. Tali has just reached adulthood herself when she meets you, and is immediately flung into saving the entire galaxy. The fact that they haven't mentioned being/feeling queer could be quite simply because the thought never occurred to them.

[inFam0us]

[Edit: This is a gaming forum. It does not blend with controversial sociopolitical issues of the real world, so respectfully keep such discussions out of this thread. - Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[Nordic Einar]

I want to second Optimystic's comments, here. I had quite a few relationships with women during my teens/young twenties - because that's what was expected of me. It was quite a shock to everyone around me, including some close friends, when I came out.

[Nordic Einar]

I want to remind everyone to *not* quote the trolls, please. Just report it and move on.

[Siansonea]

Nordic Einar wrote...

I want to remind everyone to *not* quote the trolls, please. Just report it and move on.

Some statements are their own rebuttals, there's no need to quote something when its lack of value is self-evident.

[Siansonea]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I think the "influx of Californians" comment was meant as an illustration for how liberal Austin is compared to other towns in Texas.

Anyhow, enough civics - back on topic.

yorkj86 wrote...

I said it before, and I'll say it again - the addition of non-heterosexual sexual preferences to ME1/ME2 squadmates should only be done if it is respectful to the character and its development.  Without there being any precedent for such a change, it cheapens pretty much everything.

I'm not sure what you mean by "precedent." A large number of people do not even think about engaging in homosexuality until very late in life. They've grown up being conditioned by their parents, friends, society etc. to say, "find a nice girl and settle down" - and many of them go out and do this without ever considering if it's what they really want.

Pretty much all of your squadmates have had very busy adult lives. Neither Miranda nor Garrus thought of settling down with anyone till you came along. Thane was briefly smitten by a woman he promptly left at home to continue his career as walking weapon. Jack doesn't even know what a serious relationship IS. Tali has just reached adulthood herself when she meets you, and is immediately flung into saving the entire galaxy. The fact that they haven't mentioned being/feeling queer could be quite simply because the thought never occurred to them.

This is a good point. And even for other characters like Jacob or Kaidan, the lack of an explicitly-stated history of same-sex partners does not preclude same, nor does it indicate a lack of interest. Until someone states unequivocally that they only like x, y or z, we can assume that the matter is still an open question.

[Quething]

I think Kaiden/Ashley have an unusually good excuse in the whole "didn't realize how much I felt until you were gone" thing. We know nothing about Joker's sexuality at all, apart from the fact that his taste in porn is apparently fairly extreme (not that we know specifics even then). And really, apart from maybe Tali and Jack, no ME2 LI shows interest until Shepard does. Whether or not you mean to do it is a different issue, but all their initial romantic/sexual dialog is in response to flirty dialog by Shepard. Thane and Jacob especially. So even without the Tali/Garrus issue, you can't really say, frex, "Jacob shows no interest in maleShep in ME2" and call that conclusive; Jacob shows no interest in femShep in ME2 either, until she crawls all over him like a cat in heat. Who's to say that if maleShep had acted the same, Jacob wouldn't have responded the same?



The problem, yeah, is existing fanbases. It's perfectly plausible and could be written utterly respectfully for almost any given existing character to become a s/s LI; that doesn't mean existing fans would wholeheartedly accept it. Some would love it, some would get used to it, some would never stop hating it. Personally I'd say it's worth the tradeoff, but obviously I'm biased.

[Fleaisbackwoot]

Siansonea II wrote...

I do agree that people tend to approach this issue rather emotionally, and I would call for much more dispassion. As for compromise, I think it’s built into our suggestions. We don’t want sexually aggressive characters, we want clear indicators that Shepard is pursuing romance dialogue, etc. No one wants ANY sort of romance to be forced on the player, same-sex or otherwise. It is really unfortunate that Shepard can’t ‘paragon’ speak with potential LIs without pursuing romance. We’d like to see that addressed. So there actually already is considerable overlap between the two sides of the issue, but it’s often lost in the emotional arguments.

the problem with those "suggestions" is that having colored text would segerate the straights and the gays...it would be a terrible idea to say oh if you want to go gay with this individual then select "pink(for s/s)" to have that special long walk with tali and your fem shep (if thats your thing) or thane and male shep can have that night of passion on his last remaining days of his life or select green to remain uninterested in s/s.  that is a terrible idea...i dont want that for you or me to be FORCED (rather you like it or not or you see this "optional") to make that "option" because i dont see how that wouldnt just seem forced decision.  so segeration through the dialogue dial is a NO-GO...whats your other option/suggestion?

The thing is that asari considerations aside, there still aren’t any human same-sex relationships depicted in the game, except for the FemShep/Kelly ‘flirtmance’. But including the option in future games is hardly game-breaking, any more than Shepard suddenly being able to get busy with drell, turians and quarians in ME2 was. Shepard showed no sign that he/she was into non-asari aliens in ME1, but suddenly in ME2 he/she is, and no one bats an eyelash. But everyone acts like it is so completely out of character that ManShepard might have been playing for both teams the whole time, and just hasn’t gone for a dude yet. People really aren’t that consistent in real life, so it wouldn’t be odd if Shepard was all over the map with his/her romance decisions. As it is now, ManShepard can get busy with alien-hating Ashley in ME1, then turn right around and schtupp Tali in ME2. That’s not terribly consistent. Conversely, a Liaramancer who then romances Miranda or Jack is kind of departing from what was established with Liara (xenophilia). Both of these violations of consistency don’t seem to be addressed, merely that this same Shepard moving on to a same-sex romance is somehow completely unrealistic. I say that’s nonsense, just because ManShepard isn’t pinching the butts of every man he sees doesn’t mean he’d go there if the right man came along and was interested.

I have to think about a rebuttal for this...Good point, touché

This whole argument is based on the belief that being gay somehow changes Shepard’s personality in a fundamental way that affects all non-sexual interactions. We state that sexuality is only part of a person’s personality, and that non-sexual interactions wouldn’t necessarily be any different for a bisexual or gay person as they would for a nominally heterosexual person. This might be difficult to understand if you haven’t known many gay people, but a good many of them don’t allow their sexuality to ‘become’ their identity/personality. They just live their lives, have friends, do the things they love, and have relationships with persons of their own sex. When society progresses to the point where homosexuality is less stigmatized, I would imagine that this would be a much more prevalent circumstance.

I would have to say that if bioware changed maleshep to that gay elf in DA:O (a game you use to defend your arguement so passionately) then that change would ruin shep's story but seeing how the story is already developed and the next mass effect game is its conclusion to the story then it would seem to be a bit out of place when those mundane desires should have been explained in the first game when they were establishing the story/characters, I personally do not see how that can be neogetiated.  (I swear if you say that "oh they will change and do anything for profits is non sense because Bioware knows that ME is a blockbuster hit and it would be common sense to not want to hurt your potential sales because you and everyone in this thread will buy the game regardless of if they include or continue to exclude s/s for males as you put it

On this issue you’ll find a lot of people heartily agree with you. No one wants to be forced to avoid the squad mates or be a jerk to them in order to avoid inadvertently triggering a romance, same-sex or otherwise. We want Shepard to pursue romance very consciously, not be in the middle of conversation and realize that he just agreed to have sex with whomever he or she is talking to.

at last we finally agree on something! yay!  thank you

[Ziggy]

Fleaisbackwoot wrote...
the problem with those "suggestions" is that having colored text would segerate the straights and the gays...it would be a terrible idea to say oh if you want to go gay with this individual then select "pink(for s/s)" to have that special long walk with tali and your fem shep (if thats your thing) or thane and male shep can have that night of passion on his last remaining days of his life or select green to remain uninterested in s/s. that is a terrible idea...i dont want that for you or me to be FORCED (rather you like it or not or you see this "optional") to make that "option" because i dont see how that wouldnt just seem forced decision. so segeration through the dialogue dial is a NO-GO...whats your other option/suggestion?

It would not segregate straights from gays, it would simply make it clear that you are selecting to flirt with anyone, not just someone of the same sex.
Bioware are doing something similar in dragon age 2 - symbols indicating the tone of dialog options.

I would have to say that if bioware changed maleshep to that gay elf in DA:O (a game you use to defend your arguement so passionately) then that change would ruin shep's story but seeing how the story is already developed and the next mass effect game is its conclusion to the story then it would seem to be a bit out of place when those mundane desires should have been explained in the first game when they were establishing the story/characters, I personally do not see how that can be negotiated.

I believe they point being made was that you would not have to change maleshep's personality at all.
Homosexual is not a personality type.

Modifié par Em23, 16 septembre 2010 - 12:35 .

[DanaScu]

Fleaisbackwoot wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I do agree that people tend to approach this issue rather emotionally, and I would call for much more dispassion. As for compromise, I think it’s built into our suggestions. We don’t want sexually aggressive characters, we want clear indicators that Shepard is pursuing romance dialogue, etc. No one wants ANY sort of romance to be forced on the player, same-sex or otherwise. It is really unfortunate that Shepard can’t ‘paragon’ speak with potential LIs without pursuing romance. We’d like to see that addressed. So there actually already is considerable overlap between the two sides of the issue, but it’s often lost in the emotional arguments.

the problem with those "suggestions" is that having colored text would segerate the straights and the gays...it would be a terrible idea to say oh if you want to go gay with this individual then select "pink(for s/s)" to have that special long walk with tali and your fem shep (if thats your thing) or thane and male shep can have that night of passion on his last remaining days of his life or select green to remain uninterested in s/s.  that is a terrible idea...i dont want that for you or me to be FORCED (rather you like it or not or you see this "optional") to make that "option" because i dont see how that wouldnt just seem forced decision.  so segeration through the dialogue dial is a NO-GO...whats your other option/suggestion?

The thing is that asari considerations aside, there still aren’t any human same-sex relationships depicted in the game, except for the FemShep/Kelly ‘flirtmance’. But including the option in future games is hardly game-breaking, any more than Shepard suddenly being able to get busy with drell, turians and quarians in ME2 was. Shepard showed no sign that he/she was into non-asari aliens in ME1, but suddenly in ME2 he/she is, and no one bats an eyelash. But everyone acts like it is so completely out of character that ManShepard might have been playing for both teams the whole time, and just hasn’t gone for a dude yet. People really aren’t that consistent in real life, so it wouldn’t be odd if Shepard was all over the map with his/her romance decisions. As it is now, ManShepard can get busy with alien-hating Ashley in ME1, then turn right around and schtupp Tali in ME2. That’s not terribly consistent. Conversely, a Liaramancer who then romances Miranda or Jack is kind of departing from what was established with Liara (xenophilia). Both of these violations of consistency don’t seem to be addressed, merely that this same Shepard moving on to a same-sex romance is somehow completely unrealistic. I say that’s nonsense, just because ManShepard isn’t pinching the butts of every man he sees doesn’t mean he’d go there if the right man came along and was interested.

I have to think about a rebuttal for this...Good point, touché

This whole argument is based on the belief that being gay somehow changes Shepard’s personality in a fundamental way that affects all non-sexual interactions. We state that sexuality is only part of a person’s personality, and that non-sexual interactions wouldn’t necessarily be any different for a bisexual or gay person as they would for a nominally heterosexual person. This might be difficult to understand if you haven’t known many gay people, but a good many of them don’t allow their sexuality to ‘become’ their identity/personality. They just live their lives, have friends, do the things they love, and have relationships with persons of their own sex. When society progresses to the point where homosexuality is less stigmatized, I would imagine that this would be a much more prevalent circumstance.

I would have to say that if bioware changed maleshep to that gay elf in DA:O (a game you use to defend your arguement so passionately) then that change would ruin shep's story but seeing how the story is already developed and the next mass effect game is its conclusion to the story then it would seem to be a bit out of place when those mundane desires should have been explained in the first game when they were establishing the story/characters, I personally do not see how that can be neogetiated.  (I swear if you say that "oh they will change and do anything for profits is non sense because Bioware knows that ME is a blockbuster hit and it would be common sense to not want to hurt your potential sales because you and everyone in this thread will buy the game regardless of if they include or continue to exclude s/s for males as you put it

On this issue you’ll find a lot of people heartily agree with you. No one wants to be forced to avoid the squad mates or be a jerk to them in order to avoid inadvertently triggering a romance, same-sex or otherwise. We want Shepard to pursue romance very consciously, not be in the middle of conversation and realize that he just agreed to have sex with whomever he or she is talking to.

at last we finally agree on something! yay!  thank you

Having text that is unique/identified in any manner for *any* romance would be helpful. Especially if you're playing paragon. It apparently tends to trigger romances you never intend to trigger. The femShep I was using for my first playthrough talked to Jacob with the usual paragon choices. I ended up redoing that part of the game and avoiding him  because I had no intention of dealing with Jacob in that playthrough. It was easy to avoid Garrus's romance dialogue. Jacob's was not as clear.

If you can carry on dialogue as usual with your squadmates without the chance of starting a romance you didn't intend to start, how would that be "forced"?

Shepard's personality wouldn't have to change. For some reason you seem to think that Zevran is the icon they would copy for any character involved in a gay romance. Why? Your Warden, no matter which romance you chose, doesn't act like Zevran. My male Warden didn't suddenly start acting like Zevran. My female Warden didn't suddenly start acting like Leliana. Your character is not a non-player character. Shepard doesn't change personality no matter who the romance is; why do you think this would suddenly change? It was consistent from ME to ME2. Shepard was Shepard whether the romance was Liara, Ashley, or Kaidan. There is no drastic shift in personality if Shepard romances Garrus, Tali, Miranda, Jack, Jacob, Thane, or stayed loyal to Liara in ME2. Why do you think the devs would change it ?

[RoyalRaspberry]

(Please excuse any formatting errors, I have posted on a traditional forum in quite a while)

Fleaisbackwoot wrote...

I would have to say that if bioware changed maleshep to that gay elf in DA:O (a game you use to defend your arguement so passionately) then that change would ruin shep's story but seeing how the story is already developed and the next mass effect game is its conclusion to the story then it would seem to be a bit out of place when those mundane desires should have been explained in the first game when they were establishing the story/characters, I personally do not see how that can be neogetiated.  (I swear if you say that "oh they will change and do anything for profits is non sense because Bioware knows that ME is a blockbuster hit and it would be common sense to not want to hurt your potential sales because you and everyone in this thread will buy the game regardless of if they include or continue to exclude s/s for males as you put it

But that's not what anyone is asking for for. I've spent the past few days catching up with this thread, and while I've skimmed a few conversations strings here and there, I'm pretty confidant that absolutely no one has wanted to change Shepard into Zev. No one here wants to mess up the story, or established characters - just allow for the possibility of additional character depth, and realizing that not all human beings are stereotypical cardboard cut-outs (not all marines are the chestbumping, idiot homophobes, not all gay men are flamers/Zevs).

As to the 'should have been established when...' argument, I disagree as a wanna-be writer. Writing is about showing your characters, rather than having them tell the audience what they're like. If the situation for Shepard to express an attraction to someone of the same gender never came up, then it never came up.  If M!Shepard doesn't think he needs to SAY that he's attracted to men, then why the heck would he? Just because he doesn't start every conversation with "oh, I'm bisexual, by the way" doesn't mean he's not.

As for implementing a s/s relationship, I'm gonna go ahead and make wistful eyes at Hendel, as the story from the book could potentially drop him right into Shepard's path. And I'd love for them to add something to distinguish all romances - nothing like getting ambushed into saying things. And my sister teases me for having 300+ saves... Sorry for the long post, I really just wanted to throw in my support to you lovely men and women.

[ElitePinecone]

Fleaisbackwoot wrote...
the problem with those "suggestions" is that having colored text would segerate the straights and the gays...it would be a terrible idea to say oh if you want to go gay with this individual then select "pink(for s/s)" to have that special long walk with tali and your fem shep (if thats your thing) or thane and male shep can have that night of passion on his last remaining days of his life or select green to remain uninterested in s/s.  that is a terrible idea...i dont want that for you or me to be FORCED (rather you like it or not or you see this "optional") to make that "option" because i dont see how that wouldnt just seem forced decision.  so segeration through the dialogue dial is a NO-GO...whats your other option/suggestion?

The coloured text was not a marker specifically for s/s romances - it was 'suggested' as a marker for all romance options, so that it would be perfectly clear when a player was about to embark on a romance of any kind. Distinguishing 'romance' dialogue choices from neutral or friendly dialogue choices would make it easier to avoid unwanted romances of any type. There would be no 'segregation' - just seperation of romance dialogue (of any type) from other dialogue to prevent confusion.

Exactly in the same way that Charm/Intimidate dialogue is seperated from neutral options at the moment. 

I don't entirely understand your objection that coloured text is somehow a forced decision. You presumably have the capacity to either pick the coloured option for any particular romance (same-sex or otherwise), or you can pick a neutral option - or exit the conversation. Don't feel like romancing somebody? Fine - don't pick the option. No one is forcing you to enter any romance dialogue, and the presence of a coloured option doesn't make Shepard gay in the same way that having Intimidate options doesn't make her/him Renegade. Choices matter.

Again, this is one option among many - but it has merits, and Bioware are considering a similar system for DA2, if I've heard correctly. There are a bunch of other proposals as well.

[ScotGaymer]

At this risk of being heretical I have actually found myself agreeing with Flea.



I dont particularily like the "coloured text" option for flirting and or romance. Id prefer something along the lines of when you Lie. It goes "[Lie]*Insert barefaced lie here*".

The romance could be the same. "[Romance/Flirt]*Insert mildly flirtatious or sexually interested text here*".



I just dont like the colour text idea. Like flea said, it does vaguely feel like segregation. Or deliberately drawing attention to something. Coloured text would be guaranteed to cause another Fox News explosion "omg! you can have sex with men in Mass Effect! HOW DARE THEY!".

[Quething]

yorkj86 wrote...

Jack says that she doesn't "play for the girl's team".

No she doesn't. She says she's "not into the girls' club thing." I don't understand how everyone gets "not sexually attracted to women" out of that. Especially considering everything about her context, personality, ripping on Miranda, grudging admission of liking you as a person, disdain for kindness, compassion and basic acts of frendliness, and the fact that it's a response to Shepard's "let's talk" rather than "let's have sex, Jack." Seriously, it's her version of "Can it wait for a bit, I've got calibrations," not "no romance here, [expletive] off."

Anyway.... For the dialog wheel, I'd prefer for [flirt/romance] to be a separate line, not a preface to its own line, for one specific reason - if it is, it can be an investigate option that leads to different flirts. I mean, I know everyone hates the ME1 ninjamances when they're not trying to hook up with Ash or Kaiden, and so do I, it's awful game design. But the thing is, if you are trying to hook up with the marine in question, the whole "everything on the wheel furthers the romance" is awesome.

Consider: If I want to hook up with Garrus, it's going to be exactly the same every single time; Shep will always be cool, in control, a little teasing, and both amused and endeared by Garrus' awkwardness. I can't control my Shep's personality at all. On the other hand, if I want to hook up with Ashley, I can play it a dozen different ways. Shep can be sincere and kind of dorky and cheesy, spouting greeting card lines and getting teased for it. Shep can be snarky and quick-witted, going barb-for-barb and just as unable to be serious about anything as Ash herself. He can be a mixture of both. He can agree with her views on aliens or try to make her see it his way. It's a much, much deeper romance that way, and allows the player more control over Shepard's behavior, which is paramount in an RPG of any stripe.

(LotSB did this pretty well too, you can play out the love scene a couple different ways and there are a couple different ways to get to it, but even it could have benefitted from a romance submenu instead of sticking it up on the main wheel.)

Modifié par Quething, 16 septembre 2010 - 03:33 .