120 réponses à ce sujet

[Thomas9321]

I generally do the DR (cheers Morrigan for saving the lives of about 8 Warden's now!). But I do really like the US also, it's worth it for the Sten "only one" epilogue slide. I find the funeral very lackluster to be honest. But still, it's just as good as the DR.

[Zy-El]

The US ending was very touching but I don't think I can do it again with my PC. She was involved with Alistair and it was gratifying to see him choke up when he spoke about "being together forever". Somehow more gratifying since he dumped her in order to take the throne - my PC was a Dalish Warrior (Sif). A homeland for the Dalish was nice but it can also be granted as a boon if your Dalish PC survived.

I've reloaded the game and will sacrifice Alistair this time. Maybe next playthrough, I'll let Loghain live and feed him to the AD instead.

[Swoo]

I have nothing against the Ultimate Sacrifice really, but I only like it for Loghain.



- Since I don't believe Morrigan is the Antichrist, and the Old God's (or the OGB spawn) are inherently evil, I find my PC's have a (personally) better option than self sacrifice.



- Alistair taking the blow as the 'best act he could ever do as a King' is a cop-out in my mind. He's fought and bled and developed a backbone over the course of many gameplays, letting himself die for Ferelden so he doesn't have to rule and possibly muck everything up is weak.



- Loghain it just fits perfectly. Fall from grace, but go down swinging. Fits the character perfectly, and no matter what the man was when he died, it gives Ferelden a reason to remember their hero in a positive light.

[Giggles_Manically]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Swoo wrote...

- Since I don't believe Morrigan is the Antichrist, and the Old God's (or the OGB spawn) are inherently evil, I find my PC's have a (personally) better option than self sacrifice.

Swoo,

How did you come to this rationale?  I'm not setting you up or anything.  I'd just like to hear how somebody rationalizes that the Dark Ritual is a good idea.  My canon characters, and my actual self were I placed in this situation, thinks the DR is about the worst idea ever.  I could write a thesis on it, but I'd rather read a counter point of view.

I really couldnt do the DR, its just wrong and dangerous on so many levels. Or in the words of seafoods greatest Admiral:

[Swoo]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Swoo,

How did you come to this rationale?  I'm not setting you up or anything.  I'd just like to hear how somebody rationalizes that the Dark Ritual is a good idea.  My canon characters, and my actual self were I placed in this situation, thinks the DR is about the worst idea ever.  I could write a thesis on it, but I'd rather read a counter point of view.

Ok no prob.

Firstly, I believe the Chantry is full of it. They have the Maker, so any other Gods and Dieties are going to be painted in less than flattering lights. The Chantry claims the Old Gods are evil, and they tricked their followers into going into the Fade to wreck the big guy in the sky's pad, and thus the Darkspawn were created. A counterpoint comes out in game that the Teventir's went into the Fade completely on their own accord for the purpose of exploring and mapping the Fade - their very own Undiscovered Country- and it took so much lyrium and blood magic to put them in that many of the Magi were twisted and left completely inhuman from the act. So instead of Divine manipulation and punishment, it was a addict's overdose that warped them. People will point to Blood Magic as 'aha! Blood Magic! EEEEEEVIL!', but Blood Magic didn't come from Demons, it came from things much higher up on the totem-pole. In the BM thread I showed several passages where it's only 'Demon Magic' now because the Chantry killed everyone they could that knew about it except the ones they couldn't wipe out since it was the 'big gun' of their opposition, and the Demons were the only ones left since they were normally out of reach. It also brings up another question I'll skim over, if the fact that your fathering nation is immoral, does that make you evil by default? The Romans weren't all evil because owning slaves was commonplace, the Aztecs weren't all monsters because they had human sacrifices. That sort of thing. But yeah, Blood Magic is a sword, the swordsman makes it a thing of legend or infamy. I don't consider that an automatic 'DEEEEEBIL!' strike.

So, that's out of the way. The Old God's might have mucked up all the afterlife and used their followers as pawns, but they might have just been cosmic fallguys for the new religion on the block. I fall into the Chantry-owned Magi camp, so I'm more willing to believe the OG's were like anything with a set of emotions; Sometimes they would be good and give you crops, children, and rainbows, sometimes they'd burn your own village down and tell you it was your own damn fault.

So, an untainted OG soul in my mind has no more likelyhood of being evil than anything else in the universe.

Then it comes down to Morrigan. It's been told by the writers themselves that she has a duty that she believes is bigger than herself and she'll do what she believes needs to be done to see it to that end. That manifests itself as a form of Darwinism that was drilled into her by Flemeth (that she even admits she has begun to doubt during the romance) and a very hardlined 'You need to do what it takes to win'. She's very much like Duncan in that aspect. She doesn't side for the 'bad' choice, but for the one that has the most apparent chance of strengthening both of your positions to reach the end game. Two big problems with this: One, she has very little world experience, so most of the things she says aren't really things she thinks, but she thinks she should think thanks to Flemeth. Two, if you didn't know the PC had impenetrable plot armor and could always find another solution, her counsel makes sense even if it is heartless at times (which as a Morrigan fan, even I have told her to STFU I'm looking for another way.)

I don't believe she's evil or a liar. I think she's very Miltonian/Gaiman-esque in their portrayals of Lucifer as someone who doesn't need to lie to manipulate you, just knows people well enough to know that enough of the truth (but not all) is enough to get them what they need. Other than saying she doesn't know why Flemeth sent her (which could be percieved as a 'why would she risk her new vessel getting keeeeled?' instead of what we take it for) she never lies to the player. Says things you may not want to hear, but she's upfront with what's up. She also says the Old God won't be born good or evil, it will just be. This goes back to my previous point that I think the OGB will be as good and/or evil as any other being with a ton of power at it's possession. She says she has no plan of using him (or her) as a weapon against Ferelden, and that she wants to remove them both from the reach of society and teach the old ways. I took the idea of the old ways as to when the OG's were primalistic/shamanistic dieties before they became patrons to warring empires or whipping boys for their enemies, or corrupted by tainted mortals.

Also, the OGB's power point comes from it's soul. The idea of using the baby for possession is instantly nullified by that since the act of possessing it would destroy what made it powerful in the first place. You might be able to argue that she wants to use the child like Olympias did with Alexander and ride in his wake for power and status,  but she's shown nothing but contempt for those sort of things so far.

So in the end, I think it's going to come down to which side of the fence you are looking from. If you are firmly in the Chantry camp, then the Old God's are the spiritual boogeymen who made everything go to crap, and it's going to be an abomination that needs to be put to the torch no matter what. If you think there's some holes in the Chantry's philosophies, then you can see that another rising power is no more guaranteed to be beneficial or a threat than a child of a King or Queen in the lands.

And finally, it comes down to Morrigan. Some people are just so anti-her they don't look past the front she shows you in the beginning and what she becomes by the end, so it doesn't matter to them. It's a bad choice no matter what. Some people see what she becomes in the end (maybe see's more there than what really is in the spirit of fairness) and believes in her enough to go along with it.

[Giggles_Manically]

Holy Wall of text Swoo!



In short I didnt go through with it, not because I didnt trust Morigan but because the risk was too high, and the Archdemon/Old God/Dragon thingy had to be destryoed to me. Also the fact that this is not something meserable and containable we are messing with, no man or woman can control what we the DR may unleash. While I am sad at having to kill the soul of the old god, it is better off destroyed than most of the alternatives.

[Swoo]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Holy Wall of text Swoo!

Eh, I'm longwinded at times, but some answers can't be summed up in two sentences. The Old God Baby is a very complicated decision that has enough wiggle-room that it can easily be argued either way without a definitive answer being settled on.

[Giggles_Manically]

Swoo wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Holy Wall of text Swoo!

Eh, I'm longwinded at times, but some answers can't be summed up in two sentences. The Old God Baby is a very complicated decision that has enough wiggle-room that it can easily be argued either way without a definitive answer being settled on.

While Morrigan is an interesting Charachter her lying bald face to you, or not telling the whole truth irked me so much. She thinks that her duty or desire supercedes the fate of a nation, ok. That does not sit well with me when she dosent get her way she runs off which I cant accept at all.

My problem is that if I were to join the military I would be fifth generation, so I have always had the notion of sacrifice, and duty to a nation being taught to me. That is the main reason I cant get along with Morrigan my personality is so different from hers that I could never really grow close to her in game. Some of my other PCs took the DR, but for most the choice is difficult but in the end I would face death willingly to end the blight.  Also people forget that Flemeth is still out there somewher so I couldnt let that kind of power loose.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I've only done one US ending for the achievement, and it is very touching, but I've only done it once because I think either letting Loghain or Alistair do it is much better for my RP. I don't like doing the DR, but it is more or so for Morrigan's safety. I don't think she has malicious intents with the offspring, but what about Flemeth or the offspring it's self. I can't say the same, but on the other hand if you romance Morrigan you have to trust her she wouldn't put you, herself or the child in danger, so I don't expect a world apocalypse if I do the DR, but I do fear for Morrigan. Most of my playthroughs are either Loghain redeeming or the DR.

[Rhys Cordelle]

How can you expect Morrigan to have any sense of loyalty or duty towards Ferelden? She spent her whole life in seclusion, and the rare times where she did interact with others was when she and her mother were being hunted by templars, or she was being looked on with suspicion in the towns she visited.

[asaiasai]

Nice replies Swoo but it all really hinges on whether you trust Morrigan or not. As MY position on Morrigan is well documented lol, i just find that i can not under any circumstances trust Morrigan any farther than i can throw her. It does not matter whether she is honest or upfront about her manupulation of the warden or not, kind of like a lie is a lie whether it is of exaggeration or omission. I have tested the theory not given Morrigan the Grimoir from Irving's office when you clean the tower, and she still knows about the ritual, which leads me to believe that either she, Flemeth or both are playing the warden right from the beginning. I will not be played by anyone willingly anyway, which is why in 18 completed plays i have only done the DR twice. I also am of the belief that allowing someone like Morrigan to have unfettered access to a child of that kind of potential power is like handing a child a book of matches and letting them play unsupervised in a dry forest. Giving Morrigan this kind of power will not end well unless of course the developers get all sappy and decide to change what Morrigan is into Morrigan light, like that could ever happen. No i think it is better to send her packing with an empty oven, do your duty as you have sworn to, or at least get someone else to do it, and start minimizing the problems for the future instead of passing the buck on to the next warden or generation.



Asai

[Swoo]

asaiasai wrote...

Nice replies Swoo but it all really
hinges on whether you trust Morrigan or not. As MY position on Morrigan
is well documented lol, i just find that i can not under any
circumstances trust Morrigan any farther than i can throw her. It does
not matter whether she is honest or upfront about her manupulation of
the warden or not, kind of like a lie is a lie whether it is of
exaggeration or omission. I have tested the theory not given Morrigan
the Grimoir from Irving's office when you clean the tower, and she still
knows about the ritual, which leads me to believe that either she,
Flemeth or both are playing the warden right from the beginning. I will
not be played by anyone willingly anyway, which is why in 18 completed
plays i have only done the DR twice. I also am of the belief that
allowing someone like Morrigan to have unfettered access to a child of
that kind of potential power is like handing a child a book of matches
and letting them play unsupervised in a dry forest. Giving Morrigan this
kind of power will not end well unless of course the developers get all
sappy and decide to change what Morrigan is into Morrigan light, like
that could ever happen. No i think it is better to send her packing with
an empty oven, do your duty as you have sworn to, or at least get
someone else to do it, and start minimizing the problems for the future
instead of passing the buck on to the next warden or generation.

Asai

Well, that's the crux of the matter isn't it? If you
trust Morrigan you can see a bright light to it, if you don't then it's a
disaster waiting to happen in a dozen or so years. No clue who is
right, but it's one of the reasons I'm hopeful for continuation. I would really like to see the OGB as
a sort of Camp NPC, and you'd have a legit shot to help 'mold' the kid
into either Arthur returned or an unholy terror, or if it truly was a
bad move, then to fix it as painful as that could go based on past
experiences.

Oh yes, it's pretty obvious it's Plan A right from
the get-go, she even says so (I believe it
goes 'This is the reason Mother sent me with you'). The Grimoire was
where she found out about Flemeth and the Bodysnatching Immortality
Spell. One of the problems with it is that the Dark Ritual wasn't
intended for the game, the Ultimate Sacrifice was supposed to be the
only ending, and then Bioware decided they wanted to have the option to
keep the Warden around so they spliced in the DR; We need Brock here, he
tracks down these BW quotes like a
bloodhound. So it's hard to tell exactly what's deception and what's
just inconsistency from weaving a new plot thread in. It's also annoying
that the Dark Ritual you get in the game is actually supposed to be the
one for Warden's who were frosty to her, and there was supposed to be a
less 'harsh' one that was cut for romancing/friendly Wardens. So if it
wasn't muddled already, the game itself isn't sure what the hell it's
trying to say, heh.

But yeah, I said I trust her, I didn't say
I blindly trusted her. I'm completely open and
aware to the fact that I might have just done something reeeeeeally
stupid, but I'm hopeful after seeing hours of gameplay and dialogue
where she's shaking off Flemeth's indoctrination that she'll do it
right. And I'll be there and gib her if she does try to make evil Old
God Overlord v.2.

And by all means, hit me with the long version whenever Hanz, I enjoy reading.

[Swoo]

Sigh. GD this auto-formatting. Just pretend it's in actual paragraphs and not that....mess.

[asaiasai]

Swoo wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

Nice replies Swoo but it all really
hinges on whether you trust Morrigan or not. As MY position on Morrigan
is well documented lol, i just find that i can not under any
circumstances trust Morrigan any farther than i can throw her. It does
not matter whether she is honest or upfront about her manupulation of
the warden or not, kind of like a lie is a lie whether it is of
exaggeration or omission. I have tested the theory not given Morrigan
the Grimoir from Irving's office when you clean the tower, and she still
knows about the ritual, which leads me to believe that either she,
Flemeth or both are playing the warden right from the beginning. I will
not be played by anyone willingly anyway, which is why in 18 completed
plays i have only done the DR twice. I also am of the belief that
allowing someone like Morrigan to have unfettered access to a child of
that kind of potential power is like handing a child a book of matches
and letting them play unsupervised in a dry forest. Giving Morrigan this
kind of power will not end well unless of course the developers get all
sappy and decide to change what Morrigan is into Morrigan light, like
that could ever happen. No i think it is better to send her packing with
an empty oven, do your duty as you have sworn to, or at least get
someone else to do it, and start minimizing the problems for the future
instead of passing the buck on to the next warden or generation.

Asai

Well, that's the crux of the matter isn't it? If you
trust Morrigan you can see a bright light to it, if you don't then it's a
disaster waiting to happen in a dozen or so years. No clue who is
right, but it's one of the reasons I'm hopeful for continuation. I would really like to see the OGB as
a sort of Camp NPC, and you'd have a legit shot to help 'mold' the kid
into either Arthur returned or an unholy terror, or if it truly was a
bad move, then to fix it as painful as that could go based on past
experiences.

Oh yes, it's pretty obvious it's Plan A right from
the get-go, she even says so (I believe it
goes 'This is the reason Mother sent me with you'). The Grimoire was
where she found out about Flemeth and the Bodysnatching Immortality
Spell. One of the problems with it is that the Dark Ritual wasn't
intended for the game, the Ultimate Sacrifice was supposed to be the
only ending, and then Bioware decided they wanted to have the option to
keep the Warden around so they spliced in the DR; We need Brock here, he
tracks down these BW quotes like a
bloodhound. So it's hard to tell exactly what's deception and what's
just inconsistency from weaving a new plot thread in. It's also annoying
that the Dark Ritual you get in the game is actually supposed to be the
one for Warden's who were frosty to her, and there was supposed to be a
less 'harsh' one that was cut for romancing/friendly Wardens. So if it
wasn't muddled already, the game itself isn't sure what the hell it's
trying to say, heh.

But yeah, I said I trust her, I didn't say
I blindly trusted her. I'm completely open and
aware to the fact that I might have just done something reeeeeeally
stupid, but I'm hopeful after seeing hours of gameplay and dialogue
where she's shaking off Flemeth's indoctrination that she'll do it
right. And I'll be there and gib her if she does try to make evil Old
God Overlord v.2.

And by all means, hit me with the long version whenever Hanz, I enjoy reading.

True enough Swoo i get where you are comming from in trusting Morrigan or at least having the self confidence to believe that if Morrigan goes all "I want to rule the world" on ya that your warden should be able to handle it. I kind of feel the same way about the Architect when on the occasions where i let him live. The major difference in the two is that while the Architect is darkspawn i have considered that there will be a steeper learning curve with him on how to coexist with humanity. Where as with Morrigan while being a wilder unfamiliar to human societies acts more like i would have expected the Architect to in dealing with humanity, which is why i trust her none. As i have said i have used the DR twice but i always feel cheap or dirty when i have, but to each his own, as there is no real right or wrong here just feelings if you follow me. Like something wicked this way comes and all hell breaks loose, i will say it should be if nothing else an interesting ride.  

I would really love it if Bioware made the decisions of each individual warden the decision set the world will be based on. I would like to be able to see the consequences of my decisions brought to light, and have to deal with them. i can see this being difficult for Bioware, but frankly i could care less how difficult it is, for me part of the "hook" of DAO is those decisions, dealing with the consequences, and watching the world reflect them. And for everyone on one side or another of the debeate about the DR  (did it or not), architect lives or dies, would have to clean up thier mess, poetic i think.

Asai

[Costin_Razvan]

I have just one qualm about people who refuse to take the DR and yet sacrifice Alistair/Loghain. It is simply an act of cowardice in my eyes, regardless of how convincing Alistair and Loghain are.

As for the DR. I feel it is a good choice regardless of what Morrigan does with that baby. I mean what price do you put on two souls? No one deserves that kind of fate ( to have his soul destroyed ). For me it really boils down to the fact I don't think anyone, no matter their crimes, deserves to have their soul destroyed, that and I like Morrigan ( but this only plays a minor role in my decision )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 juin 2010 - 09:42 .

[Brockololly]

asaiasai wrote...

I would really love it if Bioware made the decisions of each individual warden the decision set the world will be based on. I would like to be able to see the consequences of my decisions brought to light, and have to deal with them. i can see this being difficult for Bioware, but frankly i could care less how difficult it is, for me part of the "hook" of DAO is those decisions, dealing with the consequences, and watching the world reflect them. And for everyone on one side or another of the debeate about the DR  (did it or not), architect lives or dies, would have to clean up thier mess, poetic i think.

Asai

^This.

I almost always do the DR for many of the reasons Swoo mentioned, but also because I think it provides great potential going forward story wise. But regardless  if you did the Ritual or turned down Morrigan, I'd like to see the consequences of that action going forward. Obviously if your PC martyred themself, thats that, but it would be nice even then to have their choices carry forward to a new PC in that case. Of course, thats what people wanted in Awakening and the Orlesian Warden, but that didn't happen.

As I see it, if DA2 is set in a new part of Thedas, the only big decisions that might come into play would be mostly your choice in the DR and if Awakening counts, the fate of the Architect. Like I said though, I often have my PC's do the DR and spare the Architect, just to shake things up. Its like a really big gamble- do you trust Morrigan and the Architect to do the right thing, or possibly risk having them get in over their heads and screw things up for everybody? At least with the DR, if all hell breaks loose, my Warden will be around to take responsibility for his actions. I always thought it possible given Morrigan's stubbornness, that if you turned down the DR maybe she'd be forced into trying some other kind of crazy Ritual she knows to get to her goal- maybe one thats more "dangerous" than the DR? 

Modifié par Brockololly, 16 juin 2010 - 12:39 .

[Master Shiori]

Great post Swoo.



You summed up my reason for doing the dark ritual quite nicely.



I'll also add that all the information we get in this game is subjective. There is no "source of ultimate truth" when it comes to anything, whether it's religion, history or magic.

All we can do is either accept one sides version of events or the other. The truth could just as well be somewhere in the middle, but we as player will probably never know for sure.



Personally, I trust Morrigan and always choose to do the DR. Sure, the consequences might be bad (even if Morrigan isn't lying when she talks about the god child, there may be things she's not fully aware of or she may have even been lied to by Flemeth) but seeing them unfold makes for an interesting game.

After all, it's not really unusual to take a blind leap of faith in an rpg and be forced to deal with the fallout later. For me that's where the fun is.

[sylvanaerie]

I wouldn't ask another to do what I wouldn't myself. So no WC/Redeemer endings in my games. I did the WC once and hated the aftermath. Immediately deleted it from my PC. By the same token the DR makes me squirm in uncomfortable. I trust Morrigan (to an extent) and really believe she loves my PC (as lover or friend) but I don't trust all the variables in that situation that Morrigan has no control over. She even tells her mom "I'm not ready for this" right before you head off to Lothering And doing the DR to save your own skin seems incredibly selfish to me. This doesn't stop me from doing it, and its what I usually do because I am a sucker for "happy" endings as opposed to "someone has to die" but then after the Landsmeet I get bored anyway and just rush to finish the game.



Still the only thing that actually had an emotional impact game wise for me after the Landsmeet was the US ending. That game was the only one for me that was good from beginning to the very end.

[Giggles_Manically]

The possible reward (one life) of doing the DR is too far outweighed by the risks (possible or otherwise) of the OGB. While I am sad to see Morrigan to go, no one no matter how powerful can hope to control what the DR can unleash. Also as I talked about Flemeth before, if you forget the Unbound quest line. When you confront Gaxkhang he tells you that eyes are on you from a very high vantage point. Also losing your soul means you would go poof correct, so I believed that all the would happen is that you ceased to exist.



While that is terrible it is far better for one person to die/lose their soul it is far better than for a blight to continue, or for the Old God Soul to do something terrible.



Giggles out.

[Brockololly]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The possible reward (one life) of doing the DR is too far outweighed by the risks (possible or otherwise) of the OGB. While I am sad to see Morrigan to go, no one no matter how powerful can hope to control what the DR can unleash. Also as I talked about Flemeth before, if you forget the Unbound quest line. When you confront Gaxkhang he tells you that eyes are on you from a very high vantage point. Also losing your soul means you would go poof correct, so I believed that all the would happen is that you ceased to exist.

While that is terrible it is far better for one person to die/lose their soul it is far better than for a blight to continue, or for the Old God Soul to do something terrible.

Giggles out.

The thing is that we really have no idea what an untainted Old God is like. We've got the Chantry's word that they were tricksters and very bad dudes that tricked humanity into bad deeds, but we haven't seen an untainted Old God for ourselves. Maybe the Chantry is right and they're terrible things or maybe they're kind and benevolent beings that could end up helping stop the Blights forever. We just don't know at this point. The reality likely lies somewhere in between.

The DR choice is very much like the choice to spare the Architect- do you trust Morrigan/ the Architect to do the "right" thing and not get in over their head? The Architect may have had good intentions in trying to stop the Blights, but he goofed and started a Blight! And for all his talk of ending the Blights, he'd go to rather extreme measures to do so, especially if you've read The Calling. What is to say that Morrigan won't make a similar slip up, especially with Flemeth lurking? Its a bit of a "do you trust the devil you know or the devil you don't?" situation.