120 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

Someone put forth the argument a while ago that the Dark Ritual dramatically increases your chances of ending the blight because it makes it unnecessary for a grey warden to deliver the killing blow. When you only have three wardens going into the battle, that's not insignificant...and a thought I allowed my first PC to assuage his conscience with (though he still felt he was being selfish).

I do think the DR is very risky...it's a gambler's choice, gambling present gain against possible future losses. I'm not as convinced of the malevolence of Flemeth, though. She's clearly not an abomination of the usual sort--maybe she's more of a fade spirit like Wynne. Yes, she maintains her place in the world through posession (at least that's how Morrigan interprets it)...but that doesn't mean her ultimate goals are necessarily harmful. The bottom line is we really don't know enough about Flemeth to judge her motives.

As far as choosing to have Loghain or Alistair do it instead of the PC, the decision can be argued on pragmatic grounds. Loghain is quite old; the PC can serve the Grey Wardens better in the future. As for Alistair, if he's King, I think the PC ought to take the blow, but if he's not, it should come down to who will be better at rebuilding the Wardens--and that might very well be the PC. Of course, in Alistair's case, cowardice may not enter into it because he may take the decision of the PC's hands, just as he does if he duels Loghain.

Oh, also the whole soul destroyed argument doesn't work for a PC who doesn't believe in an afterlife. 

Modifié par maxernst, 16 juin 2010 - 08:33 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Her argument is fairly weak in so many places she is all like "If loghain does it he gains more cool points!", for me that is all like "you think I am in this for glory?... ******" I wished they had fleshed out the ending better since there are so many holes in the end.

[Avilia]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Her argument is fairly weak in so many places she is all like "If loghain does it he gains more cool points!", for me that is all like "you think I am in this for glory?... ******" I wished they had fleshed out the ending better since there are so many holes in the end.

I second this. None of her arguments would convince me in rl let alone in a game where I'm playing Miss Heroic- Grey Warden type.

The only one that even has a chance would be if my char is romancing Zev or Alistair - but even then - you've apparently spent a fair amount of time dicing with death.  I think your love interest probably already knows you're likely to die at any time.

I did my last run through without Morrigan - sent her packing at Lothering - just to see what changes about her dialogue for the DR.  Not much I was sad to see - she's obviously been stalking me the whole time!

[Giggles_Manically]

When I opened the door for the first time and saw Morrigan pretty much I was like this:

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 16 juin 2010 - 09:07 .

[asaiasai]

Avilia wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Her argument is fairly weak in so many places she is all like "If loghain does it he gains more cool points!", for me that is all like "you think I am in this for glory?... ******" I wished they had fleshed out the ending better since there are so many holes in the end.

I second this. None of her arguments would convince me in rl let alone in a game where I'm playing Miss Heroic- Grey Warden type.

The only one that even has a chance would be if my char is romancing Zev or Alistair - but even then - you've apparently spent a fair amount of time dicing with death.  I think your love interest probably already knows you're likely to die at any time.

I did my last run through without Morrigan - sent her packing at Lothering - just to see what changes about her dialogue for the DR.  Not much I was sad to see - she's obviously been stalking me the whole time!

It is becuase of this and a few other reasons that i pass on the DR. Morrigan, Flemeth or both are playing the warden for thier own reasons, and regardless of whether they are up front about it or not, trying to play me is bad. I feel the DR is the most cowardice approach it is as if your afraid to do your duty, worse afraid to make any kind of decision, and your potentially unleashing something more evil loose upon the world. Getting someone else to take the final blow for you ie, Allistair or Loghain is slightly less of a cowards approach but hey what good are they really anyway if not being there so that i can survive and continue to do the great things for Feraldin i have been doing. The US is the ending where the warden is really the true hero. i have 9 of 19 dead characters, and those 9 were my favorite characters, their builds, decisions sets, thier gear was the best, if any of my wardens should have survived of the 19 they should have, they were the paragons of legend in leadership and it is a shame they had to die, but they led from the front always, as all true leaders will.

Asai

[Sarah1281]

The true hero...unless you find out that the DR is canonized and the child ends up being the savior of all mankind or something.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 19 juin 2010 - 04:09 .

[Giggles_Manically]

In the end what stops me from taking the DR is best summed up by one of Loghain's last lines:

"If I can die a hero in the service of Ferelden, then I do so gladly."

To me death is not some terrible end or something to fear as it is to Morrigan, billions of humans have died and billions more will also pass on someday. What matters to me is not whether I live or die in a situation but whether I can get others out alive in the end.



In the long run, you have what, about 30 years left to live, while that can seem like a long time, I myself am not willing to risk the fate of so much, on my own pleasure. The Blight has been ended four times succesfully before, and for me it will be ended the 5th time through the US. While I have a few charachters who take the DR because that is what they do. My Noble and Mage who I played like I would have done both took the bullet as it where.



If I have to lay my life on the line to save my nation, then I do so not only willingly, but proudly. IN the end the Wardens have to give everything to stop the Darkspawn, and if it means that it takes my life, or soul then so be it. Currently I am half way into writing the funeral for my City Elf really sad so far, but Cyrus was one tough little Rouge and left Ferelden a better place in the end (cept' for Vaughan of course)

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Well killing the Archdemon is a little different than death. I mean you have your soul crushed you aren't going to sit by the Maker or whatever you believe in. I guess if you do not believe in an afterlife you would okay with it, Giving my life is one thing, but my soul that is another league of sacrifice that I would not do so hastily if given another option

[Sarah1281]

If you're conscripted into the Wardens against your will then I don't think anyone really has the right to jduge you for actually doing your job and building an army and killing the Archdemon just because you're not willing to sacrifice your soul to do it. A lot of people would have just left for Orlais or Antiva, particularly if they had no real attachment to Ferelden.

[Giggles_Manically]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Well killing the Archdemon is a little different than death. I mean you have your soul crushed you aren't going to sit by the Maker or whatever you believe in. I guess if you do not believe in an afterlife you would okay with it, Giving my life is one thing, but my soul that is another league of sacrifice that I would not do so hastily if given another option

Even if my soul existed, which being an agnostic I can not really deicide.  However if your soul is destroyed then wouldnt you simply cease to exist?

[Giggles_Manically]

Didnt help that I was raised on stories about KNights charging whole Armies for their lands, or watching films where in the end the hero dies. (I got chocked up at the end of Fellowship but then if you didnt you must be a corpse) I am quite proud to almost always turn morrigan down in the end. To me it is not the quantity of life which Morrigan believes matters, but the quality of life that truly matters in the end. I can live to be a hundred but if I do nothing, then it means nothing. I can die at 20 while doing something and that has a million times more meaning than the former.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I just thought about how crazy unhardened Leliana can be. We assume she commits suicide or dies of grief and sees you, but if you did the US you're soul is crushed thus you do not exist anymore. Either you keep your soul or Leliana is crazy lol. Just another reason for me I guess to keep hardening her other than the fact her beliefs contradict the Chantry anyways which makes her a much better person than most chantry members in my eyes anyways.



As for the US it's self. I guess when you compare it side to side to the DR yes it is the less knightly/heroic way out to dispose of the Archdemon, and Morrigan doesn't do a very good job of selling the idea to you either. Even when I romance her I still hesitated to trust the outcome of the DR, but I don't think she has any malice with her intents I more or so fear for what Flemeth and the OGB's intents are. I don't think anyone can say which one is better the DR has upside for being the blunder that sends the world into doom, or it might be the best thing since Andraste who knows. It is just a chance you can take and save your life at the same time. Just depends on your RP I guess if you are willing to risk that much for you're own life.

[Sarah1281]

Leliana has no way of knowing that your soul is going to be destroyed. Even if you're honest about the fact that you may die how would it help her to know that your soul will also be destroyed? She just says that she had a vision or something of how to see you again which, in this case at least, was probably just wishful thinking if your soul really is destroyed.

[asaiasai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The true hero...unless you find out that the DR is canonized and the child ends up being the savior of all mankind or something.

And this right here is my greatest fear, more Morrigan and all the sudden she turns out to be a good character, that would be a plot hole bigger than Morrigan's pie hole, which IMHO both should be stapled shut at the first avaliable moment.

I really hope that the developers decide to cannonize the decision set for each individual warden so if you did the DR you will have one more mess to clean up, and in my case i can delete the 2 characters who excercised the DR to be free of Morrigan entirely, yet still have a game to play.

Asai 

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Leliana has no way of knowing that your soul is going to be destroyed. Even if you're honest about the fact that you may die how would it help her to know that your soul will also be destroyed? She just says that she had a vision or something of how to see you again which, in this case at least, was probably just wishful thinking if your soul really is destroyed.

Well she has a vision she saw the maker which I agree with "I believe she believes in her vision", and I agree with the same thing on the epilogue she believes she saw you. Crazy was probably too strong of an adjective to use for what I was trying to say. I was saying her naive/gullible faith makes her believe something that probably isn't real to anything but in her own mind which is kind of crazy at least in my book. There is a difference between being devout/strong faith and being over zealous of your beliefs which I think she crosses the line in the epilogue. I assume she dies from grief/suicide because she believed she really sees you, and believes she will be with you which if you truly have your soul crushed is a cruel lie made by her being over zealous. I mean it is sad an sweet she loves your PC that much, but her faith really screws her over right there I think. Then again who knows what the afterlife is like in Fereldon people may just rot in the ground and are worm chow, or they might go sit by the Maker who knows, but you're PC is either worm chow or a crushed soul unless the Maker made an exception for you, Garahal and the other Grey Wardens who destroyed Blights and gave you a get out of jail free card.

[Giggles_Manically]

Leliana is hardly crazy, while yes she does quite likely commit suicide its also bad for Alistair and Zevran. Alistair dissapears after a few years due to his grief, and Zevran hits a wall of depression when he goes back to the Crows.One of my neighbours lost his wife of some 50 years, and it was sad to see what happened to him. He went from the nice old man down the street into a sick, depressed and anti-social loner overnight. Grief can do as much damage as physical injury can it seems to me. That is why I felt the ending slides where so powerful, they showed that when different charachters lost the warden, a little part of them died.



Morrigan probably is the only LI who didnt feel that much for the Warden dying in the end most likely at least they didnt hint at it. Probably pretty bummed she has a normal kid, with no soul now!

[Giggles_Manically]

dream_operator23 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Morrigan probably is the only LI who didnt feel that much for the Warden dying in the end most likely at least they didnt hint at it. Probably pretty bummed she has a normal kid, with no soul now!

I always wondered how and exactly what Morrigan feels about a Warden that she is in love with that refuses the DR and then does the US instead.  I haven't gone that route yet, but I am toying with the idea of doing it this time.  I could imagine that some Wardens would feel really betrayed and used by Morrigan if in love with her when she approaches them with the DR and says to do it or she will leave.  Also the way Morrigan's ring works, she would feel the Warden dying if he has it on when slaying the Archdemon. 

If it takes a little over two days to get to Denerim from Redcliffe, then say about half a days worth of asembling and fighting up to the tower then at least 2.5 days have passed since Morrigan got called off. THat is not a very long time to get over something so important, from someone who you thought you knew. Probably when she felt him die she was still incredibly angry. However she does show some sadness in her face when leaving so maybe she feels a little sad. Who knows she could even be a little happy that he died in the end. My second Dwarf Commenor did this, so sadly she is having his normal half-dwarf baby ( ), wonder what she would do to it though. She is seen carrying it so maybe she did keep it, or maybe she just tossed it off a cliff when it was born dont really know. Feel bad for Gendon the Second though even if she did keep him.

[Corker]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Well killing the Archdemon is a little different than death. I mean you have your soul crushed you aren't going to sit by the Maker or whatever you believe in. I guess if you do not believe in an afterlife you would okay with it, Giving my life is one thing, but my soul that is another league of sacrifice that I would not do so hastily if given another option

As a Dwarf Commoner, I figure you grow up with the expectation that you're going in the lava when you die, to keep your hideous shameful casteless soul from tainting the Stone.  If my soul can take the Archdemon down on its way out, that is so an added bonus.

[Giggles_Manically]

I often wonder what went through my Warden's minds right before they did the ultimate sacrifice. Besides the OG soul of course.

For my Dwarf Commenor he died proudly knowing that he proved that even a castless can do something with his life.

While for my Human Noble, he died knowing that he was saving his country and his king, murdering Howe was just gravy at that point. Yet he was saddened leaving Leliana behind and never saying goodbye to his brother.



How bout the rest of you?

[Avilia]

My CEF left Alistair at the gates to stop him killing it. He'd given her the old heave-ho after being made king so she pretty much did a Leiliana.



My DEF, she felt it was her duty to take the blow. To save her people from the Blight.



My mage - Alistair needs to be king and the AD needs to die. Her job then. Nothing more than that.



I should say - none of my PC's who've taken the US route trusted Morrigan as far as they could throw her ;-)

[Giggles_Manically]

Thanks for the compliment! Philosophy and History courses encourage people to always question things very deeply, which is why I turn down Morrigan most of the time.



But the one thing that kept me from doing the Dark Ritual was simply remebering a speech from 300 during my first playthrough:

"No retreat, No surrender, that is Spartan Law, and by Spartan Law WE WILL STAND AND FIGHT!"



The DR is a cowards way out of a situation to me, better to die putting everything in place, than to live and potentially screw the rest of the world up.

[Brockololly]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The DR is a cowards way out of a situation to me, better to die putting everything in place, than to live and potentially screw the rest of the world up.

But who is to say that you're not screwing the world over by not taking the DR? How do you know you're putting everything in place?  Ignore the DR and you've still got 2 Old Gods lurking, ready for 2 more Blights with no guarantee they'll be stopped, you'll have a pissed off Morrigan doing who knows what to fulfill her "plan" and you leave Ferelden in a crappy position with at most 1 Warden.

The DR is a risk no doubt and could potentially backfire, but I don't grasp why its a coward's way out. The Warden's task is to stop the Blight no matter the cost- not to necessarily get themself killed in the process. My Warden can do more good for Ferelden and Thedas by being alive than by trying to be the hero and offing himself in a blaze of glory. Death is the easy way out here- you kill the Archdemon your soul is destroyed and thats that. The PC may be gone but Thedas still has crap to deal with- the Warden got out easy.

My logic in doing the DR is that at least my Warden is going to be around to keep fighting the darkspawn and rebuild the Wardens after the Archdemon dies. And if Morrigan, Flemeth and the Old God Baby turn up and raise shenanigans, my Warden will be around to put and end to that.

If you turn down the DR , Morrigan storms off, but to do what? Her mysterious "plan" involves mucking around with the soul of an Old God, but who is to say that by turning her down, she doesn't resort to something even "worse"?

The DR is the ol' do you trust the devil you know or the devil you don't kind of scenario....

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 juin 2010 - 02:10 .