120 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont trust the devil(s) period. While Morrigan may be wanting the child for a grand purspose that may be good there are multiple significant problems:
1) Flemeth is still out there, so she adds another layer to the problem
2) While doing the Unbound quest Gaxkhang warns you "You are being watched from a very high vantage" indicating there is more than just the immediate to be aware off.
3) There is no proof that the Old Gods were not just malacious entinties (see Demons) that were simply masquearding as Gods. Better to put it down then risk unleashing the Devil.
4) What if the OG simply possess Morrigan instead? Simply put this is power beyond what anyone can control safely.
5) What if the taint is not removed and Morrigan goes kabloey, and the Archdemon in now possesing a powerful and intelligent mage?
6) If the Darkspawn can taint an Old God, what is to stop them from tainting the child if they find it?
7) If Morrigan wants me to do this, then she should actually tell me what she is going to do. "I dont want to say" ME:"well there is the door, dont let it smack you on the butt on the way out" Maybe, just maybe if she would tell me what is up I would do it. But if she dosent trust me in the end, then I dont trust her in the end.

As to why I think the DR is cowardly: 4 other Wardens died to put down the Archdemons, so if 4 out of 4 wardens had done it why not a fifth. Simply put only people who are afraid to die take it, and I am not afraid to die to save my country in the end. If my life is all it takes to put an end to a potentaiily world ending genocidal horde then so be it, I will do it and do it gladly.

While some of my Wardens do it, that is because I RP them as doing it, I on the other hand find it disgusting, daagerous, and stupid to the extreme.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 20 juin 2010 - 02:59 .

[Master Shiori]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The DR is a cowards way out of a situation to me, better to die putting everything in place, than to live and potentially screw the rest of the world up.

No it's not.

The reason a Grey Warden is expected to sacrifice himself is because that is the only way they know that can stop the Blight. That doesn't mean there aren't alternatives.

And let's analyze the state of Thedas back when the worship of the Old Gods was a dominant religion and today when Chantry reigns supreme.

Back then we had Tevinter Imperium destroying whole civilizations, sacrificing people and magisters doing whatever they pleased to their populace.

Today, we have Exalted Marches trying to wipe out anyone not following the Maker, mages being oppressed, elves treated as second class citizens (a noble can kidnap and rape their women whenever he wants and suffer no consequences), Qunari invading, Blights devastating entire countries, etc.

Does that really sound like a paradise on earth that the Chantry is promising? 

Adding an Old God into such a mix hardly seem like a recipe for disaster. What could it do that hasn't been done already?

[Brockololly]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I dont trust the devil(s) period.

So am I to believe then that you probably also killed the Architect? Cause in many ways its a similar scenario- do you risk the unknown for a potentially high risk/reward scenario or stick with the "safe" choice?

Giggles_Manically wrote...
1) Flemeth is still out there, so she adds another layer to the problem

I'll give you that one- but the problem with Flemeth (and Morrigan for that matter) is that there is sooooo much we don't know about them.

Giggles_Manically wrote...
2) While doing the Unbound quest Gaxkhang warns you "You are being watched from a very high vantage" indicating there is more than just the immediate to be aware off.

I've thought of this too. But its all quite vague- it could mean that the Warden has an important role to play and friendly fade spirits as well as demons are watching the Warden's actions. I always take that to simply mean that the Warden is an important person and those beings in the Fade find him/her and their exploits interesting.

Giggles_Manically wrote...
3) There is no proof that the Old Gods were not just malacious entinties (see Demons) that were simply masquearding as Gods. Better to put it down then risk unleashing the Devil.

  This is true if we are to believe the Chantry's version of things. There probably is an element of truth to what the Chantry says about the legend of the Old Gods, but its really just a he said, she said scenario. There isn't concrete evidence either way what an untainted Old God would or would not do. Let alone what an Old God in a  human body would do.

Giggles_Manically wrote...

4) What if the OG simply possess Morrigan instead? Simply put this is power beyond what anyone can control safely.

But is Morrigan trying to control it? We don't know what the Old God Baby would be like- will it be a normal kid with huge power or will it be aware of its divine lineage? But true enough, the DR is a big risk and things could go wrong, but its not like things are going that great in Thedas now anyway...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
5) What if the taint is not removed and Morrigan goes kabloey, and the Archdemon in now possesing a powerful and intelligent mage?
6) If the Darkspawn can taint an Old God, what is to stop them from tainting the child if they find it?

All entirely possible scenarios, but thats the problem in trying to debate these "what ifs" with the DR- we're not given much info to go off of, so when it comes down to it Gaider and the writers could very well do something like what you mentioned or they could do something completely different. The problem here is that we're dealing with MAGIC and the rules of said magic weren't entirely explained by Morrigan or the writers. Its a risk ultimately, but its a chance to shake things up because its not like things are going swimmingly in Thedas currently.

Giggles_Manically wrote...
7) If Morrigan wants me to do this, then she should actually tell me what she is going to do. "I dont want to say" ME:"well there is the door, dont let it smack you on the butt on the way out" Maybe, just maybe if she would tell me what is up I would do it. But if she dosent trust me in the end, then I dont trust her in the end.

I'll completely agree with you here. Morrigan's lack of disclosure regarding the DR and her attempts at convincing the Warden aren't very convincing. Her kind of cold demeanor makes more sense if you were a jerk to her throughout the game, but at least for the friendly or romancing Warden I would have appreciated a bit more insight into her plans. Yet it seems to me thats more of the writers wielding their Plot Hammer and not wanting to tip their hand as to where this plot may go down the road more than anything else. The writing in the DR scene really bothers me.

Giggles_Manically wrote...
As to why I think the DR is cowardly: 4 other Wardens died to put down the Archdemons, so if 4 out of 4 wardens had done it why not a fifth. Simply put only people who are afraid to die take it, and I am not afraid to die to save my country in the end. If my life is all it takes to put an end to a potentaiily world ending genocidal horde then so be it, I will do it and do it gladly.
 

The thing with that mentality though is that the Warden doing the Ultimate Sacrifice isn't saving Ferelden forever and ever. You're only offering it a temporary repreive from the Blight, one that according to Awakening doesn't last long. The US is a prefectly reasonable choice, I just think the Warden can do more good still breathing than trying to be a martyr. Its not like the Wardens are paragons of virtue anyway, the very act of becoming a Warden involves "evil" blood magic involving Archdemon or darkspawn blood. And if you've read The Calling, you know that Wardens do all sorts of things in the name of stopping the Blights, some less conventional than others.

But this sort of discussion is what makes the DR an interesting choice. Its one of the reasons I really hope we come back as either the Warden or another Warden in DA2. But this time actually have a spectrum of Warden veterans to interact with- some hardline, rigid Wardens and other more unconventional Wardens.

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 juin 2010 - 04:30 .

[Giggles_Manically]

While you believe that the Old God may somehow be good, if you study ancient religions then the Old Gods would be far from good. The old style entity they are modeled after are not some holy being come to spread love to the world. They are selfish, uncaring, and remote (like the Maker). So I a) Feel no remorse for having to blow the OG and my soul to kingdom come Do not trust, get along with, or believe Morrigan would do anything even remotely helpful with the Child.



Also the state Ferelden is in, was exactly like Medieval england, minus the spawn and Mages. But they can easily be replaced by some of the worst natural disaster, or plauges, or heretics being hunted by the church easily. People forget just how terrible the Dark Ages and Middle Ages where, which is one thing DA does show is that it was a world very different from the modern.



Also taking a potentialy very risky choice, to avoid death os cowardice, plain and simple.

[Sarah1281]

4) What if the OG simply possess Morrigan instead? Simply put this is power beyond what anyone can control safely.

We have no reason to believe that the OG can possess something with a soul and have some reason to believe the opposite, in face: that the OG dies when it tries to possess a Warden.

5) What if the taint is not removed and Morrigan goes kabloey, and the Archdemon in now possesing a powerful and intelligent mage?

That seems less dangerous than a giant dragon controlling darkspawn.

6) If the Darkspawn can taint an Old God, what is to stop them from tainting the child if they find it?

Okay, that is one of the most obvious worries about the OG so presumably that, at least, if Morrigan and Flemeth were planning to use the ritual won't be a factor. Morrigan and Flemeth don't like darkspawn, have no reason to want a darkspawn army, realize darkspawn will kill them and they can't cohabitate...they would have taken steps to prevent that before the ritual.

As to why I think the DR is cowardly: 4 other Wardens died to put down the Archdemons, so if 4 out of 4 wardens had done it why not a fifth.

Yeah they did because they had no other choice. You do. You can't say that they chose to die when they didn't have to because they had no other way to end things and for all we know they would have chosen the DR had it been available.

Also taking a potentialy very risky choice, to avoid death os cowardice, plain and simple.

I disagree. As far as I can tell, the fact that the ritual was performed means that no matter who kills the Archdemon its soul will enter into Morrigan's baby so as long as she lives the Archdemon will be stopped. There are three Wardens in Ferelden. Three. Riordan is going off on his own and hasn't proven the most reliable in the past, has been tortured for months, and you haven't seen him in action. That just leaves you and Alistair/Loghain and Alistair may very well be King. What if you all die before you reach the Archdemon? That means game over and everyone else might as well just up and leave at that point as there is no more potential for victory. Or say you don't die but the forces manage to kill the Archdemon before you get there and it just respawns itself. Think of how many lives could be saved (including all of Ferelden if you and the other Wardens perish but someone else manages to take it down) by doing the DR.



If you could be assured that you would get the opportunity to kill the Archdemon yourself and that you could do it before anyone else killed it first and it respawned then maybe you could call it cowardice (although given that you very well might have been dragged along and still did your duty because there was no one else even though you were forced into this and that's more than most people in the game with their 'oh, it's too dangerous' and 'solve all of my problems for me, Warden' can say I'm not convinced that it is) but since you can't then it's a valuable fail-safe in case you fail.

[Giggles_Manically]

I would believe that the Wardens couldnt reach the Archdemon if it werent for the facts that:



Annihalted an eniter army of Demons (Circle Tower)

Killed hundreds of Darkspawn, all over the place

Killed 2 dragons (High and Flemeth)

Killed dozens of werewolves

Stopped an undead army with only a dozen good fighters, and some militia.

Found the Anvil of the Void, and named a new King in ORzamar

and pretty much solved every big issue in the game.



While there is a risk yes to doing the US route, to me the risk inherit in the DR is much worse. People can justify it all they want Morrigan only made off with the OGB once out of now 8 playthroughs. I simply dont trust her, or believe anything good can come out of this situation. It could be that I am agnostic and so put little value on the soul, or a divine existince but death is not so terrifying to me, billions have died, and billions more will before the end.



If it turns out that the OGB turns into the saviour of the world, then I will personally eat my hat and think Bioware is seriously shovelling the BS down our thoats. Who knows but its just a game, and now I am going back for a vacation in Rome Total War.

[Sarah1281]

If the Warden were a real person without plot immunity then the fact that they've accomplished all that does not, in fact, guarentee that they could reach the Archdemon and they've never fought wave after wave of darkspawn like you have to to even GET to the Archdemon. The closest I think you come is in the latter part of the Deep Roads but even that isn't quite as all-at-once. You have only three other people with you (for the rest of the quests only taking a few is game mechanics and you can assume everyone really came with you but here Riordan specifically has your other party members busy with other things) and you're supposed to seek out and destroy the Archdemon and do so before someone else does it and the lack of a ritual means you have to do it again? To me that's more of a risk because then it is literally all riding on you and your ability to not get you and your other Warden killed. And if you leave them behind at the gate then your chances are even worse.

[Giggles_Manically]

Actually that is a very tactical well thought out idea Sarah. However the problem is that if you do not take mebers with you they will mention not being there Shale in regards to the Anvil, Leliana and Wynne in regards to the Ashes. While it does make perfect tactical sense to take the DR, it does not make good STRATEGIC sense to take it at all since you cant be aware of the outcome.



THis reminds me about arguing for hours about the final choices in Mass Effect 1 & 2 good points for and against in the end.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Actually that is a very tactical well thought out idea Sarah. However the problem is that if you do not take mebers with you they will mention not being there Shale in regards to the Anvil, Leliana and Wynne in regards to the Ashes. While it does make perfect tactical sense to take the DR, it does not make good STRATEGIC sense to take it at all since you cant be aware of the outcome.

THis reminds me about arguing for hours about the final choices in Mass Effect 1 & 2 good points for and against in the end.

So if any of your characters did decide to take the DR would they feel obligated to hunt down Morrigan to make sure it doesn't blow up in everybody's face and create a worse threat than the Blight? 

[Master Shiori]

The very fact that you can't know the consequences of the DR doesn't make it a bad choice by default.



For all you know it may turn out exactly as Morrigan told you and nothing bad will happen to Ferelden or Thedas as a whole.



Until we see consequences of the DR first hand we cannot say what it's effects will be.

[Nerdage]

Well the only other person likely to kill the archdemon from an rp perspective is Riordan, if none of the grey wardens make it then odds are the archdemon would win the battle anyway, so I can't see that taking the ritual really helps end the blight. The troops that were on the roof when you arrive are all killed easily, after all, and the rest of the army is completely outnumbered down in the city so they couldn't get up there to kill it.

[Giggles_Manically]

My CEF so far is the only one who took it, and she stayed to fix the wardens with Alistair in the end. If I where to take it I really dont know what I would do, If i heard nothing bad then I would be happy, but the minute I started hearing bad rumors about something involving a Dark Haired sorceress in Orlasis, you can bet your sweet bronto I would go and try to stop her.



Then again most of my Runs are Loghain Redemer or US ones. I have yet to let Alistair die.

[Sarah1281]

nerdage wrote...

Well the only other person likely to kill the archdemon from an rp perspective is Riordan, if none of the grey wardens make it then odds are the archdemon would win the battle anyway, so I can't see that taking the ritual really helps end the blight. The troops that were on the roof when you arrive are all killed easily, after all, and the rest of the army is completely outnumbered down in the city so they couldn't get up there to kill it.

 But you can't know that the troops would be so easily killed when you decide to take the ritual or not and it's hardly just you that ends up bringing it down, you do need to call in reinforcements (if only to deal with the massive amounts of darkspawn the Archdemon summons) so if that factors into your decision at all it's metagaming.

[Nerdage]

Master Shiori wrote...

The very fact that you can't know the consequences of the DR doesn't make it a bad choice by default.

For all you know it may turn out exactly as Morrigan told you and nothing bad will happen to Ferelden or Thedas as a whole.

It does though, doesn't it? She doesn't even say that it won't go badly, or even what she intends to do. You've go no reason to assume the worst, but you've got no reason to assume otherwise, either, and Morrigan never struck me as a great philanthropist.

[Sarah1281]

dream_operator23 wrote...

nerdage wrote...

Well the only other person likely to kill the archdemon from an rp perspective is Riordan, if none of the grey wardens make it then odds are the archdemon would win the battle anyway, so I can't see that taking the ritual really helps end the blight. The troops that were on the roof when you arrive are all killed easily, after all, and the rest of the army is completely outnumbered down in the city so they couldn't get up there to kill it.

I also wonder if anyone would even know that they could kill the Archdemon if all of the Wardens die.  It seems just as likely if not more so that everyone would panic and run because they thought the war lost.  It's not like anyone knew anything about the DR.  They just know that a Grey Warden is the one that has to kill an Archdemon.  So while there may be some people willing to take a chance and try to kill the dragon if you fall, it isn't a fail safe plan by any means.  And of course if you died then chances are great that Morrigan died too which makes the whole point moot.  

I always leave Morrigan at the gates because that seems safer (and you can tell Leliana that's why you're leaving her) and she's the one who absolutely has to survive or else you might as well not have bothered to do the ritual. I think if everyone knew that the Wardens were dead then it would be incredibly demoralizing but most people probably don't believe that it is literally required for a GW to end the Blight just that they are the super soldiers who have the best chance. Still, it might cause panic but communication isn't all that great so it's unlikely that everyone would find out that you were dead until later and the troops already on the roof weren't just standing around waiting for you to save them but trying to kill the Archdemon.

[Giggles_Manically]

My Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer didnt fear not getting to the AD since he could either mass annhilate an entire division, or heal one depending on the situation. I dont think the DR is the smartest descion, but then again Riordian (poster child for MR HERP DERP of the year) also is not very helpful in the end.



THe ending bugs me so much, everything collapses and they expect the players to just role with a literal wall of curve balls. The pacing is terrible you have to

1) overthrow Loghain

2) Name the monarch

3) Decide on the DR

4) Possibly decide who dies in the end.



You get hit with as much in Jade Empire but at least they give you some bloody breathing room for Christs sake!

[Nerdage]

Sarah1281 wrote...

nerdage wrote...

Well the only other person likely to kill the archdemon from an rp perspective is Riordan, if none of the grey wardens make it then odds are the archdemon would win the battle anyway, so I can't see that taking the ritual really helps end the blight. The troops that were on the roof when you arrive are all killed easily, after all, and the rest of the army is completely outnumbered down in the city so they couldn't get up there to kill it.

 But you can't know that the troops would be so easily killed when you decide to take the ritual or not and it's hardly just you that ends up bringing it down, you do need to call in reinforcements (if only to deal with the massive amounts of darkspawn the Archdemon summons) so if that factors into your decision at all it's metagaming.

Surely you'd know the size of the horde relative to your own force, they outnembered you at Ostagar after all, and presumably they've multiplying in the months follow. Plus Riordan had been scouting the horde, it would be pretty irresponsible of him not to mention it, but he has a bad track record for giving important informantion at the right time.

[Sarah1281]

nerdage wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

nerdage wrote...

Well the only other person likely to kill the archdemon from an rp perspective is Riordan, if none of the grey wardens make it then odds are the archdemon would win the battle anyway, so I can't see that taking the ritual really helps end the blight. The troops that were on the roof when you arrive are all killed easily, after all, and the rest of the army is completely outnumbered down in the city so they couldn't get up there to kill it.

 But you can't know that the troops would be so easily killed when you decide to take the ritual or not and it's hardly just you that ends up bringing it down, you do need to call in reinforcements (if only to deal with the massive amounts of darkspawn the Archdemon summons) so if that factors into your decision at all it's metagaming.

Surely you'd know the size of the horde relative to your own force, they outnembered you at Ostagar after all, and presumably they've multiplying in the months follow. Plus Riordan had been scouting the horde, it would be pretty irresponsible of him not to mention it, but he has a bad track record for giving important informantion at the right time.

That is true but what I can't buy is that if you personally (or Alistair/Loghain or Riordan) don't kill it that no one else will be able to manage it in the entire battle. Archdemons have been killed by non-Wardens before bu they simply respawned and with the dark ritual then even if you die then someone else could come along and kill it. They might die in the process but as long as Morrigan is alive then the Blight will end.

[Nerdage]

Sarah1281 wrote...

nerdage wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

nerdage wrote...

Well the only other person likely to kill the archdemon from an rp perspective is Riordan, if none of the grey wardens make it then odds are the archdemon would win the battle anyway, so I can't see that taking the ritual really helps end the blight. The troops that were on the roof when you arrive are all killed easily, after all, and the rest of the army is completely outnumbered down in the city so they couldn't get up there to kill it.

 But you can't know that the troops would be so easily killed when you decide to take the ritual or not and it's hardly just you that ends up bringing it down, you do need to call in reinforcements (if only to deal with the massive amounts of darkspawn the Archdemon summons) so if that factors into your decision at all it's metagaming.

Surely you'd know the size of the horde relative to your own force, they outnembered you at Ostagar after all, and presumably they've multiplying in the months follow. Plus Riordan had been scouting the horde, it would be pretty irresponsible of him not to mention it, but he has a bad track record for giving important informantion at the right time.

That is true but what I can't buy is that if you personally (or Alistair/Loghain or Riordan) don't kill it that no one else will be able to manage it in the entire battle. Archdemons have been killed by non-Wardens before bu they simply respawned and with the dark ritual then even if you die then someone else could come along and kill it. They might die in the process but as long as Morrigan is alive then the Blight will end.

Perhaps, I guess there's risk either way, I just thought that a relatively predictable risk posed by the archdemon was safer than the completely unknown risk of Morrigan's plan. With Loghain gone (one way or another) the wardens of Orlais could stop the blight spreading if it came to that, but I was willing to assume that either Riordan or my self would kill it or we'd all die.
I guess if you really wanted to minimize your risk you could have a warden perform the ritual, kill the archdemon however you wanted, then have a warden kill the child, but that's never really presented as an option.

[Giggles_Manically]

Huh just saw this and imagined my City Elf who took the DR thinking that Morrigan was lying and she would still die for some reason.

[Sarah1281]

Why would your CE do the ritual if they thought it wouldn't work?

Modifié par Sarah1281, 21 juin 2010 - 01:24 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Because she wanted to keep Alistair alive as well.