390 réponses à ce sujet

[Spectre_907]

huntrrz wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

I agree that Cerberus hires monsters. I do not think the organization itself is monstrous. The Illusive Man just sees the experiments as a means to an end. He does not necessarily think they are a good idea but would not not argue if it gets results. He even says so in the message if you freed David. Most Cerberus cells became monstrous only after the Illusive Man ordered their projects to be shut down, becoming rogue cells out of desperation. If anything, I see Cerberus as reckless and overly Machiavellian than anything evil.

The trouble is that Cerberus has repeatedly had problems with "rogue cells" and as far as we can tell, has done nothing to prevent them from happening again and again.

THAT'S what's evil - they don't care enough to fix things.

Of course we can say that now because we see the aftermath and Cerberus not willing to clean up their mess. But when your faced with something as threatening like war with the geth at the moment, you will do what is necessary to survive. Ethical concerns become secondary.

[this isnt my name]

Spectre_907 wrote...

huntrrz wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

I agree that Cerberus hires monsters. I do not think the organization itself is monstrous. The Illusive Man just sees the experiments as a means to an end. He does not necessarily think they are a good idea but would not not argue if it gets results. He even says so in the message if you freed David. Most Cerberus cells became monstrous only after the Illusive Man ordered their projects to be shut down, becoming rogue cells out of desperation. If anything, I see Cerberus as reckless and overly Machiavellian than anything evil.

The trouble is that Cerberus has repeatedly had problems with "rogue cells" and as far as we can tell, has done nothing to prevent them from happening again and again.

THAT'S what's evil - they don't care enough to fix things.

Of course we can say that now because we see the aftermath and Cerberus not willing to clean up their mess. But when your faced with something as threatening like war with the geth at the moment, you will do what is necessary to survive. Ethical concerns become secondary.

*bangshead* there is no ****ing war with the geth. Oh and nice logic, because then the geth dont kill us we kill ourselves. Or we ust cause more problems, hoestly if the only way to survive is to be a mindless cerberus tool, then my shep will die proud. So I assume you kept the base aswell ?  good, because you know when cerberus stabs us in the back, we can give him more tools, more with you giving him brainwashed geth, oh andthe ends dont ustify the means here, because the ends (his suffering was means, results were ends) were a lot of bodies and no gain. Cerberus probobally kills more humans than geth.

[Dracotamer]

Let him go, not sure how even a renegade could leave him. He's in pain and begging you to make it stop while tears stream down his face. I mean come on, how inhuman can you be?

[KOKitten]

Neuzhelin wrote...

KOKitten wrote...

I freed David but had to shake my head when Shepard stated he'd be sent to Grissom Academy as he'd be safe there. "Sure," I thought, "It's not as if Cerberus has ever been able to sneak an operative into Grissom Academy before."
Shepard doesn't know any of that, of course, but I could see TIM thinking, "All right, let's work out a plan to get one of our own back in there."

Is it not logical that security levels would be elevated after Gillian's case, especially with K. Sanders supervising the place?

I would certainly hope it so but would still not put it past Cerberus to attempt infiltration.  Nothing is ever 100% secure. 

[Neuzhelin]

I would certainly hope it so but would still not put it past Cerberus to attempt infiltration.  Nothing is ever 100% secure. 

That is true but I will drain Cerberus of as much rescources I can in the process, reveal their intelligence to the Council/Alliance and do what I can to undermine their regressive structure (unless I roleplay a pro-cerberus xenophobe). As EDI/Miranda say, even with spies in many organisations their funding is not limitless and only a certain number of cells (ranging around 10 if I recall) can operate at the same time under TIM's supervision. After all, it is a black-ops organisation hunted by most of the civilized galaxy, they can't continue forever.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 18 juin 2010 - 05:32 .

[Spectre_907]

this isnt my name wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

huntrrz wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

I agree that Cerberus hires monsters. I do not think the organization itself is monstrous. The Illusive Man just sees the experiments as a means to an end. He does not necessarily think they are a good idea but would not not argue if it gets results. He even says so in the message if you freed David. Most Cerberus cells became monstrous only after the Illusive Man ordered their projects to be shut down, becoming rogue cells out of desperation. If anything, I see Cerberus as reckless and overly Machiavellian than anything evil.

The trouble is that Cerberus has repeatedly had problems with "rogue cells" and as far as we can tell, has done nothing to prevent them from happening again and again.

THAT'S what's evil - they don't care enough to fix things.

Of course we can say that now because we see the aftermath and Cerberus not willing to clean up their mess. But when your faced with something as threatening like war with the geth at the moment, you will do what is necessary to survive. Ethical concerns become secondary.

*bangshead* there is no ****ing war with the geth. Oh and nice logic, because then the geth dont kill us we kill ourselves. Or we ust cause more problems, hoestly if the only way to survive is to be a mindless cerberus tool, then my shep will die proud. So I assume you kept the base aswell ?  good, because you know when cerberus stabs us in the back, we can give him more tools, more with you giving him brainwashed geth, oh andthe ends dont ustify the means here, because the ends (his suffering was means, results were ends) were a lot of bodies and no gain. Cerberus probobally kills more humans than geth.

As I said, "at the moment." That meaning when the geth were a threat and without Shepard's knowledge of Legion and the original geth. Cerberus and the Alliance only know the geth from their experiences with the heretics. I am speaking from their perspective. We as Shepard know there is no threat from the geth and can build a bridge that could lead to peaceful coexistence but Cerberus does not know this. So they take will steps within their own frame of knowledge to do what is necessary to survive. Very few who agree with the paragon morality would argue against rewriting the heretics during Legion's loyalty mission in order to survive the Reaper invasion. But what was Cerberus trying to accomplish? The exact same thing. There is only a means to the same end, rewriting geth for a purpose.

Now for your assumption as to whether I kept the Collector base or kept David as he was: no. Freeing David was the ethical thing to do. Destroying the Collector base was the ethical thing to do. But I can understand how one justifies experiments like the one demonstrated on Aite.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 18 juin 2010 - 05:43 .

[dan107]

Lord_Tirian wrote...
Actually, it is. There is a limit of options you can put into a game if you want to finish it before the heat death of the universe.

So, you *have* to make choices what options to include. In previous BioWare game, it was often "Holy Saint" and "Puppy Incinerator". If you wanted to RP them as even remotely reasonable person, who didn't did EVIL ™ things for the lulz, it confined you to the overly good path.

So instead of using the two extremes on the scale of good evil, they settled on limits closer to the middle. This allows a more reasonable portrayal of the non-good choices. Instead of having the choice between "Space Ghandi" and "Space Stalin", we have the choice between "Captain Picard" and "Space Jack Bauer".

Sure, it does exclude people who want to play "Space Stalin" - but instead we gain the ability to play "Space Jack Bauer". Frankly, making the "evil" choices to come across as more reasonable and less like a psychopatic, emotionless killer is a good choice that makes the "evil" path a lot more appealing.

It's not good and evil, it's Paragon and Renegade. Paragon has always been about doing the right thing the right way, renegade has always been about the ends justifying the means. No one is talking about being a psychotic emotionless killer and putting a bullet into David just for fun. The renegade option should clearly be "Yes, this is horrible, but necessary. Carry on." like it has been in just about every other decision.

As far as a limit on how much you can do - this DLC had so little dialogue to begin with that it wouldn't kill them to add a couple more lines. Really there are 3 choices that just jump out at you: 1) Rescue David and spare Archer (Paragon), 2) Rescue David and kill Archer (Paragade), 3) Let the experiment continue for the greater good (Renegade). This would fit perfectly well with the tone of ME and shouldn't require excessive time or resources to implement. It's puzzling to me why it wasn't.

Modifié par dan107, 18 juin 2010 - 05:42 .

[smudboy]

Dracotamer wrote...

Let him go, not sure how even a renegade could leave him. He's in pain and begging you to make it stop while tears stream down his face. I mean come on, how inhuman can you be?

On the flipside, David might be a key link to defeating the Reapers.  Cerberus is all about being renegade.

(aside) Although consindering it's DLC, and the total lack of Legion/Tali/Miranda/Mordin/any squad member input:  Not a chance.  Big waste for nothing.

[lekysma]

[/quote]

Couple things. First, if you do this before you get Legion, then you know none of that. At that point as far as you know the heretics are the only kind of Geth out there. Second, even if you do this after recruiting Legion, you also have to take it at its word that this is all the truth. It admits in a conversation that the Geth broadcasted a lie just to see the organic reaction, whose to say that Legion isn't some kind of ploy to gather as much information as possible on organics before they send in some kind of invasion fleet? Also, as someone else mentioned, they are machines. If we can reprogram them then whose to say the Reapers can't do the same?

[/quote]

i find it hard to critizice the geth because as you said they can be reprogrammed, since organics beings are also a liability; just look at the protheans!!

[CroGamer002]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

 yeah, I wanted to blow up the geth robot base, since they attacked my citadel and all in M E 1...it's only fair... cause and effect... I believe in continuity and consistence. that was my only reason for using activated legion (infiltrator).
legion lied by the way, "geth do not infiltrate, we do not, the citadel security officer is lying... yet later on in the story we'll infiltrate the Geth base", lie. 

I never get that funny scene but even Zaeed says: "You're wasting your time, Geth do not inflitrate."

[CroGamer002]

smudboy wrote...

Dracotamer wrote...

Let him go, not sure how even a renegade could leave him. He's in pain and begging you to make it stop while tears stream down his face. I mean come on, how inhuman can you be?

On the flipside, David might be a key link to defeating the Reapers.  Cerberus is all about being renegade.

(aside) Although consindering it's DLC, and the total lack of Legion/Tali/Miranda/Mordin/any squad member input:  Not a chance.  Big waste for nothing.

If you really hate Mass Effect 2 that much, then why are you wasting your time here?

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Mesina2 wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

 yeah, I wanted to blow up the geth robot base, since they attacked my citadel and all in M E 1...it's only fair... cause and effect... I believe in continuity and consistence. that was my only reason for using activated legion (infiltrator).
legion lied by the way, "geth do not infiltrate, we do not, the citadel security officer is lying... yet later on in the story we'll infiltrate the Geth base", lie. 

I never get that funny scene but even Zaeed says: "You're wasting your time, Geth do not inflitrate."

Geth do not infiltrate... right... inconsistent writing or something... this definitely looks like a geth infiltrating something to me . maybe it shows how a robot can lie or something. Ohhhhhh *hank hill style*

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 18 juin 2010 - 10:36 .

[smudboy]

Mesina2 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Dracotamer wrote...

Let him go, not sure how even a renegade could leave him. He's in pain and begging you to make it stop while tears stream down his face. I mean come on, how inhuman can you be?

On the flipside, David might be a key link to defeating the Reapers.  Cerberus is all about being renegade.

(aside) Although consindering it's DLC, and the total lack of Legion/Tali/Miranda/Mordin/any squad member input:  Not a chance.  Big waste for nothing.

If you really hate Mass Effect 2 that much, then why are you wasting your time here?

If you really think I hate Mass Effect 2 that much, then why are you wasting your time responding to me without making an argument?

[Pacifien]

smudboy wrote...
(aside) Although consindering it's DLC, and the total lack of Legion/Tali/Miranda/Mordin/any squad member input:  Not a chance.  Big waste for nothing.

I don't know why anyone thought it would have squad input. Bringing Down the Sky didn't. And so far, its only followup has been a news bulletin.

[smudboy]

Pacifien wrote...

smudboy wrote...
(aside) Although consindering it's DLC, and the total lack of Legion/Tali/Miranda/Mordin/any squad member input:  Not a chance.  Big waste for nothing.

I don't know why anyone thought it would have squad input. Bringing Down the Sky didn't. And so far, its only followup has been a news bulletin.

I think that had more actors in it.  It was also a couple years ago.

Let's see here:
-It's about the Geth
--Legion?
--Tali?
--...anyone?
-It's about Cerberus (and yet another unethical science experiment involving humans.)
--Miranda?  Jacob?  Mordin?
--Apparently we've got another Jack on our hands
--Apparently Cerberus did get live Geth (who are apparently unhackable by their own creators after hundreds of years) in some period of time before we got Legion.  Let alone an entire ship of them, and one platform is in a stasis bubble/thing.  But Cerberus can force MMI on some autistic kid, because he's a math savant?
-It's about some weird Matrix/dreamstate/virus thing
--Sounds likes something Motoko Kasumi would have knowledge of/experience in
--Puts the "omni" in omni-tool.  (TIM smokes drugs.  Shepard sleepwalks colorful electricity dreams that are real.)  This is the equivalent of "it was all a ...oh wait, it is a dream, yet not." Shepard: "Whoa.  Omni-tripping."
-It involves EDI
--Apparently you can get a Critical Mission Failure from one guy somehow jacked into the Hive Mind of a Geth which somehow...ends the game...while trying to upload him/itself to the Normandy.  Yet EDI has only some difficulty fighting off a Collector/Reaper hack.  Apparently we don't need EDI to comment on the severity of the scene or wtf is going on.

Other obvious issue:
-It has the Hammerhead.
--I can understand if we're navigating a dangerous, cavernous environment, suited for a...rough, strong maneuverable hover tank.  But all they had to do was just take the damn shuttle.  If you can zip right past the turrets, you can also fly over them.  Because traveling less efficiently to play Frogger in lava makes so much more sense.

Modifié par smudboy, 19 juin 2010 - 11:39 .

[GreenDragon37]

Captain Uccisore wrote...

DirtyVagrant wrote...

Sent him to Grissom Academy. That was quite a disturbing reveal when you finally see him!

What really got to me was when the tears started pooling out of his, showing you how much pain he was in (and with those claw-things holding his eyelids back... *shudders*). It's even worse when his own brother tries to justify what he did to him while David is weeping... I wish we could have done alot more to Archer than just pistol whipping him, bastard needed a good, long beating. <_<

This!

You should have been able to do much worse than a crappy pistol whip! This DLC is kinda ironic because for me, it kinda hit home. I have an autistic brother, and puting him in Davids place, just made it 10x worse. This just gives me another reason to hate Cerberus! Look out TIM, here I come!

P.S. That message I got after the mission really pissed me off!

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 19 juin 2010 - 12:15 .

[ResidentNoob]

Pacifien wrote...

smudboy wrote...
(aside) Although consindering it's DLC, and the total lack of Legion/Tali/Miranda/Mordin/any squad member input:  Not a chance.  Big waste for nothing.

I don't know why anyone thought it would have squad input.

Me neither. They're not going to pay all 12 VAs to record what are basically the same lines as each other for a single 2 hour DLC.

[Comrade Goby]

Leave him. Any results would have most likely been more beneficial to humanity as a whole then letting him run around calculating square roots.



If you can use a person to achieve a greater good for humanity, why not?



Cerberus is willing to cross lines to get results and that's why I support them.

[Christmas Ape]

David got a free ride off-world, because at the end of the day they're shoving hot pins into his brain to see what kind of sounds he makes. They're trying to manufacture a god for the geth to appeal to some "religious instinct" - apparently he didn't get the memo re: Reapers. The geth aren't clamoring for something to believe in, and they're not that hard to talk to if you get their attention. Come on up to the ship, have a chat with one.



All species must self-determinate; it is an evolutionary imperative. The alternative is slavery, and ultimately genocide even if there are no mass graves. A species that does not self-determinate ceases to be itself in a very real way. The goals of Project Overlord are not merely redundant, but repellent.



That said, I don't blame Cerberus for it any more than I blame humanity; that facility clearly predates Shepard finding Legion by at least a year, the geth were still an unknown threat. Sure, they seem to recruit a lot of brilliant people who take effed-up short cuts, but so do at least two major corporations - nothing that happens on Noveria, Feros, or Nodacrux was Cerberus-related. tIM just operates on tighter time tables and hires more...ambitious...researchers than others. I can't even find any solid proof that Project Overlord was originally intended as anything more than the creation of a VI godhead - consider the log in which Dr. Archer is surprised by David understanding the geth language. I think they lucked into discovering his facility with their communication - he's probably there because his brother looks after him, "Cerberus takes care of its own" and all that - and decided they had an even better approach on hand to generate some real results. You can take exception with the methods of their employees, but as an organization their goals are sound.



Shutting down Overlord also makes a good gesture; every time the geth 'wake up' around organics we're trying to torture or enslave them.

[Jade Warden]

I let him go even on my renegade file, because my little brother is autistic so it really hit home.

[CroGamer002]

smudboy wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Dracotamer wrote...

Let him go, not sure how even a renegade could leave him. He's in pain and begging you to make it stop while tears stream down his face. I mean come on, how inhuman can you be?

On the flipside, David might be a key link to defeating the Reapers.  Cerberus is all about being renegade.

(aside) Although consindering it's DLC, and the total lack of Legion/Tali/Miranda/Mordin/any squad member input:  Not a chance.  Big waste for nothing.

If you really hate Mass Effect 2 that much, then why are you wasting your time here?

If you really think I hate Mass Effect 2 that much, then why are you wasting your time responding to me without making an argument?

You do relise that you just own yourself here?

[CroGamer002]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

 yeah, I wanted to blow up the geth robot base, since they attacked my citadel and all in M E 1...it's only fair... cause and effect... I believe in continuity and consistence. that was my only reason for using activated legion (infiltrator).
legion lied by the way, "geth do not infiltrate, we do not, the citadel security officer is lying... yet later on in the story we'll infiltrate the Geth base", lie. 

I never get that funny scene but even Zaeed says: "You're wasting your time, Geth do not inflitrate."

Geth do not infiltrate... right... inconsistent writing or something... this definitely looks like a geth infiltrating something to me . maybe it shows how a robot can lie or something. Ohhhhhh *hank hill style*

[smudboy]

Mesina2 wrote...
You do relise that you just own yourself here?

Perhaps you can use normal English?  And actually have an argument?  Or are you still going to make more ad homs and swearing?

Please, use your mind and argue.  We'd all appreciate that.

[GreenDragon37]

Comrade Goby wrote...

Leave him. Any results would have most likely been more beneficial to humanity as a whole then letting him run around calculating square roots.

If you can use a person to achieve a greater good for humanity, why not?

Cerberus is willing to cross lines to get results and that's why I support them.

This is why Humanity is becoming no better than the Reapers. It's a shame really.

[this isnt my name]

Comrade Goby wrote...

Leave him. Any results would have most likely been more beneficial to humanity as a whole then letting him run around calculating square roots.

If you can use a person to achieve a greater good for humanity, why not?

Cerberus is willing to cross lines to get results and that's why I support them.

I have re typed several posts, but you know what I cant desribe just how wrong that was, so im just going to say in your game I hope the reapers win, because atleast it gives another generation a chance and hopefully they wont have thoughts as messed up, cerberus actions cannot be justifeid, here there is no gain, and im sure many atrocities in the world were "for teh greater good".