390 réponses à ce sujet

[SojournerN7]

Released him to Grissom Academy. My decision was instict, it wasn't right and pistol whipping never felt so good. I know a couple autistic kids, so it's also a bit more personal.



Another question: How did this DLC affect your opinion of Cerberus if at all?

[4rAnSIc]

another Jack-like victimised kid...

[GreenDragon37]

Sojourner83 wrote...

Released him to Grissom Academy. My decision was instict, it wasn't right and pistol whipping never felt so good. I know a couple autistic kids, so it's also a bit more personal.

Another question: How did this DLC affect your opinion of Cerberus if at all?

I already didn't trust them. My brother is autistic, so this DLC felt like a kick to the nuts. Now, I really want Cerberus dead. Dr. Archer should have had a bullet in the head, but no! Now, I'm comin' for TIM for sure!

[Christmas Ape]

4rAnSIc wrote...

another Jack-like victimised kid...

What? David's pretty clearly an adult.

And I stand by it: If this changes your opinion of Cerberus, it should change your opinion of humanity as well. Members compose an organization, but there was no "strap him in!" memo. Just a lack of direct oversight - which researchers love - and a bad decision.

[DOYOURLABS]

I freed him. It was inhumane to keep him there and Legion makes all of archer's work irrelevant. They wanted to communicate with the geth but we can already do that.

EDIT: My opinion on cerberus hasn't changed. I still distrust the illusive man even though he had nothing to do with that. I can understand archer's decision, he was about to loose his job if he didn't show results and his brother had a great gift that could help humanity. Archer might have also thought he would be giving David a purpose. But hooking him up that way, putting tubes in his mouth, is unethical.

Modifié par DOYOURLABS, 19 juin 2010 - 03:31 .

[4rAnSIc]

Christmas Ape wrote...

4rAnSIc wrote...

another Jack-like victimised kid...

What? David's pretty clearly an adult.

for me, an autistic individual still resembles a child no matter how old they are... had the chance to take care of one. felt sorry for him... thats my 2 cents.

Modifié par 4rAnSIc, 19 juin 2010 - 03:31 .

[ThisIsMadness91]

Sojourner83 wrote...

Released him to Grissom Academy. My decision was instict, it wasn't right and pistol whipping never felt so good. I know a couple autistic kids, so it's also a bit more personal.

Another question: How did this DLC affect your opinion of Cerberus if at all?

I've already vowed to destroy Cerberus if BioWare presents the opportunity to me. This just strengthens my resolve.

[Comrade Goby]

this isnt my name wrote...

Comrade Goby wrote...

Leave him. Any results would have most likely been more beneficial to humanity as a whole then letting him run around calculating square roots.

If you can use a person to achieve a greater good for humanity, why not?

Cerberus is willing to cross lines to get results and that's why I support them.

I have re typed several posts, but you know what I cant desribe just how wrong that was, so im just going to say in your game I hope the reapers win, because atleast it gives another generation a chance and hopefully they wont have thoughts as messed up, cerberus actions cannot be justifeid, here there is no gain, and im sure many atrocities in the world were "for teh greater good".

But their actions can be justified. Morality is a point of view.

[Zack56]

How can you possibly justify what happened to David? The geth (Legion) have already stated that they would be willing to live peacfully with the quarians provided that the Quarians were willing to do the same. How can you also possibley justify Cerberus torturing Jack as a little girl just to see if it will make her a strong biotic? Moreover, how can you justify Cerberus infiltrating an Alliance special education program (Grissom Academy) to repetedly drug a borderline autistic biotic girl and later chase her to the Flotilla to recapture her and nearly destroying a Quarian ship in the process? If you even attempt to justify that, then I hope that Cerberus's next experiment is on you.

Modifié par Zack56, 20 juin 2010 - 04:17 .

[Spectre_907]

Zack56 wrote...

How can you possibly justify what happened to David? The geth (Legion) have already stated that they would be willing to live peacfully with the quarians provided that the Quarians were willing to do the same. How can you also possibley justify Cerberus torturing Jack as a little girl just to see if it will make her a strong biotic? Moreover, how can you justify Cerberus infiltrating an Alliance special education program (Grissom Academy) to repetedly drug a borderline autistic biotic girl and later chase her to the Flotilla to recapture her and nearly destroying a Quarian ship in the process? If you even attempt to justify that, then I hope that Cerberus's next experiment is on you.

Your Shepard knows of Legion and the original geth. Your crew knows of Legion and the original geth. Cerberus and the Alliance does not. They only did what was necessary to ensure the geth do not attack organics anymore and prevent a future conflict. Keep in mind that the they only know the geth from their encounters with heretic geth. So naturally they are going to assume that all geth are hostile. When faced with a relentless enemy intent on your destruction, you do what ever it takes to ensure survival. Ethical convictions are irrelevant.

Furthermore, using David to exploit the geth's religious tendencies is no different from re-purposing the heretic virus to rewrite the heretics to be accepted back into geth collective. There is only different means to the same end. You can argue that should you choose to give Legion to Cerberus, you can still acquire geth allies against the Old Machines by use of Project Overlord.

I can easily justify all of Cerberus' operations. Their operations are a means to an end and the ends always justify the means.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 21 juin 2010 - 07:10 .

[Jesusland]

I left him hooked up for the common good. Just think how many millions of lives will be saved. Is the life one just one guy worth millions? I don't think so. Sure, it's sad leaving him there like that, but sometimes you've got to roll the hard six.

Modifié par Jesusland, 21 juin 2010 - 08:14 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

I must say it took me awhile, but on my main character (who is pretty Renegade) I let Archer have him. I indeed felt bad for David and thought that Archer went too far, too fast. Yet the project still had potential. The geth under human control, an entire, expendable army ready to fight the reapers or any other threat. You could tell Dr. Archer was pained by his decision and undoubtedly believed his brother deserved better. Both him and TIM stated David would be well cared and receive the best medical care Cerberus could provide. David may indeed be sacrificing his freedom, but the goal if achieved would be worth the cost.



From TIM's letter it sounded like David wouldn't be used in the same manner, and while TIM may not be the most trustworthy person, I hope the man has some scrap of morality in him.

[GreenDragon37]

Jesusland wrote...

I left him hooked up for the common good. Just think how many millions of lives will be saved. Is the life one just one guy worth millions? I don't think so. Sure, it's sad leaving him there like that, but sometimes you've got to roll the hard six.

You know who else thought like this... Hitler! We all know how awsome that guy was! We all know how great his plans worked! Nothing bad about him at all! /sarcasm

[DaVanguard]

I had choosen paragon davids role is what legion is for

[Dean_the_Young]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Jesusland wrote...

I left him hooked up for the common good. Just think how many millions of lives will be saved. Is the life one just one guy worth millions? I don't think so. Sure, it's sad leaving him there like that, but sometimes you've got to roll the hard six.

You know who else thought like this... Hitler! We all know how awsome that guy was! We all know how great his plans worked! Nothing bad about him at all! /sarcasm

You know, the quality of our education system would be much improved if we implemented a system of flogging people who can think of no other historical comparison of anything other than Hitler.

Plus, it might also add the insight that not everything Hitler or the ****s did was horrible baby-killing evil that must never be touched, no matter how much the tobacco industry would love that sentiment to continue.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zack56 wrote...

How can you possibly justify what happened to David? The geth (Legion) have already stated that they would be willing to live peacfully with the quarians provided that the Quarians were willing to do the same.

And if you don't have Legion at this point in the game?

If you even attempt to justify that, then I hope that Cerberus's next experiment is on you.

Ah, the truth of your character comes out I see.

[Ogrek]

Personally, I love that, no matter what you choose, you get to punch or pistol-whip Doctor Archer. No matter whether you're ruthless or virtuous, you ALWAYS get to smash David's brother over the head.



For the record, I sent him to Grissom - given how badly Doctor Archer had failed here, I'm not sure I'd trust him with any more 'advances' using David. Especially not as I'd had Legion at that point.

[Tooneyman]

This one was renegade due to the shepard I'm playing I will probably do a paragon run just to see it again, but overlord is how Bioware needs to make the levels from now on. That is how ME 2 should have looked. I'm proud to say. Bioware finally found the formula. Though I don't understand why it was so hard to begin with anyway. We've been saying it should have been like that for years. Bioware your all a bunch of dorks. lol.

[wizardryforever]

Jesusland wrote...

I left him hooked up for the common good. Just think how many millions of lives will be saved. Is the life one just one guy worth millions? I don't think so. Sure, it's sad leaving him there like that, but sometimes you've got to roll the hard six.

This is essentially the renegade trope, "for the greater good."  I think it's bull****, as those who focus exclusively on the big picture eventually lose sight of the small.  Eventually, their view of the "greater good" is just as bad or even worse than what they are combatting.  If you can't (or won't) save one poor soul, how can you be expected to save the galaxy, and all life in it?

Anything can be justified if you twist logic enough, or make unnecessary sacrifices "for the greater good."  But I have serious difficulty in understanding the justification for Archer's experiment.  Even before you pick up Legion, you have to know that the Geth aren't "quite the boogeymen they used to be," according to Anderson.  You have no idea of their motives or what they are planning to do next, but they haven't done anything to threaten the galaxy in the time you've been gone.  Basing such a cruel torture of an autistic man on what might occur seems completely unjustifiable.  Even if there was solid evidence that the Geth were massing for another attack, there had to be better options that could be done.  Such horrible procedures should only be done when all other alternatives have been explored and there is imminent danger (in this case, from the Geth).  In an attempt to save the human race, don't lose your own humanity.

[Dean_the_Young]

wizardryforever wrote...

Jesusland wrote...

I left him hooked up for the common good. Just think how many millions of lives will be saved. Is the life one just one guy worth millions? I don't think so. Sure, it's sad leaving him there like that, but sometimes you've got to roll the hard six.

This is essentially the renegade trope, "for the greater good."  I think it's bull****, as those who focus exclusively on the big picture eventually lose sight of the small.  Eventually, their view of the "greater good" is just as bad or even worse than what they are combatting.  If you can't (or won't) save one poor soul, how can you be expected to save the galaxy, and all life in it?

Easily, when you make the basis on numbers of souls saved. Ergo, Shepard does not save one soul, Shepard saves 999,999+ more souls.

Perspective is an important thing not to lose. Do not lose the forest for the trees, or the colony for the ants.

Anything can be justified if you twist logic enough, or make unnecessary sacrifices "for the greater good."  But I have serious difficulty in understanding the justification for Archer's experiment.  Even before you pick up Legion, you have to know that the Geth aren't "quite the boogeymen they used to be," according to Anderson.  You have no idea of their motives or what they are planning to do next, but they haven't done anything to threaten the galaxy in the time you've been gone.  Basing such a cruel torture of an autistic man on what might occur seems completely unjustifiable.  Even if there was solid evidence that the Geth were massing for another attack, there had to be better options that could be done.  Such horrible procedures should only be done when all other alternatives have been explored and there is imminent danger (in this case, from the Geth).  In an attempt to save the human race, don't lose your own humanity.

The Geth aren't the boogeymen they used to be, but they are still an unquestionable threat to someone without the Legion-relevations (which absolutely no one has until towards the end of Shepard's ME2 experience IF he chooses certain options). The Perseus Veil was never attacked, and the logic of any war with the Geth is that this die down is only a cease fire, not a victory that prevents the Geth from attacking. The heart of Geth power, and their ability to build more fighting forces, hasn't been touched.

The Geth did attack without provocation, and we know they did ally with the Reapers. When the Reapers return in force, it is only logical and predictable that the oganic-hating Geth will remain allied with them. The Geth are still attacking, when and how they can.


Without Legion's knowledge of the Heretic/Geth split, there really is no basis for thinking that the Geth won't attack in force again.

[wizardryforever]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Jesusland wrote...

I left him hooked up for the common good. Just think how many millions of lives will be saved. Is the life one just one guy worth millions? I don't think so. Sure, it's sad leaving him there like that, but sometimes you've got to roll the hard six.

This is essentially the renegade trope, "for the greater good."  I think it's bull****, as those who focus exclusively on the big picture eventually lose sight of the small.  Eventually, their view of the "greater good" is just as bad or even worse than what they are combatting.  If you can't (or won't) save one poor soul, how can you be expected to save the galaxy, and all life in it?

Easily, when you make the basis on numbers of souls saved. Ergo, Shepard does not save one soul, Shepard saves 999,999+ more souls.

Perspective is an important thing not to lose. Do not lose the forest for the trees, or the colony for the ants.

Anything can be justified if you twist logic enough, or make unnecessary sacrifices "for the greater good."  But I have serious difficulty in understanding the justification for Archer's experiment.  Even before you pick up Legion, you have to know that the Geth aren't "quite the boogeymen they used to be," according to Anderson.  You have no idea of their motives or what they are planning to do next, but they haven't done anything to threaten the galaxy in the time you've been gone.  Basing such a cruel torture of an autistic man on what might occur seems completely unjustifiable.  Even if there was solid evidence that the Geth were massing for another attack, there had to be better options that could be done.  Such horrible procedures should only be done when all other alternatives have been explored and there is imminent danger (in this case, from the Geth).  In an attempt to save the human race, don't lose your own humanity.

The Geth aren't the boogeymen they used to be, but they are still an unquestionable threat to someone without the Legion-relevations (which absolutely no one has until towards the end of Shepard's ME2 experience IF he chooses certain options). The Perseus Veil was never attacked, and the logic of any war with the Geth is that this die down is only a cease fire, not a victory that prevents the Geth from attacking. The heart of Geth power, and their ability to build more fighting forces, hasn't been touched.

The Geth did attack without provocation, and we know they did ally with the Reapers. When the Reapers return in force, it is only logical and predictable that the oganic-hating Geth will remain allied with them. The Geth are still attacking, when and how they can.


Without Legion's knowledge of the Heretic/Geth split, there really is no basis for thinking that the Geth won't attack in force again.

There's no basis for thinking that they will attack either, other than simple paranoia and fear.  As I said, before Legion's input, we have no idea what the Geth are thinking, whether they view Sovereign's destruction with anger, horror, or trepidation.  They could be massing behind the veil, but they also could have reconsidered their views, and their actions in support of the Reapers.  After all, if you could defeat their god, why would they be a problem?  My point is that since we have no solid evidence either way, there is no justifiable reason to torture someone against their will in a horrific experiment.  Legion's knowledge just reinforces the truth, that project Overlord was comepletely unnecessary.  In endorsing project Overlord, you are endorsing not only the torture of an innocent man (an autistic one at that), but also the brainwashing of an entire species simply because they don't believe as you do.  How does this make you any better than the Reapers?  As I said, don't become what you're fighting against.  Torture is never justified.

[Spectre_907]

wizardryforever wrote...

There's no basis for thinking that they will attack either, other than simple paranoia and fear.  As I said, before Legion's input, we have no idea what the Geth are thinking, whether they view Sovereign's destruction with anger, horror, or trepidation.  They could be massing behind the veil, but they also could have reconsidered their views, and their actions in support of the Reapers.  After all, if you could defeat their god, why would they be a problem?  My point is that since we have no solid evidence either way, there is no justifiable reason to torture someone against their will in a horrific experiment.  Legion's knowledge just reinforces the truth, that project Overlord was comepletely unnecessary.  In endorsing project Overlord, you are endorsing not only the torture of an innocent man (an autistic one at that), but also the brainwashing of an entire species simply because they don't believe as you do.  How does this make you any better than the Reapers?  As I said, don't become what you're fighting against.  Torture is never justified.

The heretic geth attacked Alliance colonies and the Citadel without warning or provocation. That alone makes them the enemy. They don't have the means nor the desire to reason with organics and thus, their destruction is the only means to ensure the survival of organics. This is a matter of survival. Ethical concerns are secondary. Granted the heretics are a splinter faction of the geth but only WE as Shepard know this and not at the time the Illusive Man sanctioned Project Overlord. Cerberus and the Alliance does NOT know this. It only becomes unnecessary given certain choices made after the Reaper IFF and during Tali and Legion's loyalty missions but to say it is completely unncecessary is not true. If you reveal Rael's logs to the admiralty and give Legion to cerberus or destroy the heretics, Project Overlord ensures you will have geth allies against the reapers just as much as not revealing Rael's evidence and rewriting the heretics. This makes the project necessary.

Also, your assuming David was forced into this against his will. He volunteered for this. The only thing forced on him was the final step with his integration with the VI and only then, after it went rogue did he want it to stop. Don't think he is some innocent party in this, he willingly cooperated with Cerberus.

Few who agree with the paragon morality would argue against rewriting the heretics but if you want to say that those who endorsed Project Overlord are as bad as the reapers, rewriting the heretics makes a paragon no different. This is only a different means to the same end: controlling another species for a hidden agenda. Even Legion agrees with the criticisms about the ethical concern of "brainwashing" the heretics and says that one should not use one's own ethical convictions to judge another.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 23 juin 2010 - 07:02 .

[snfonseka]

Spectre_907 wrote...

Zack56 wrote...

How can you possibly justify what happened to David? The geth (Legion) have already stated that they would be willing to live peacfully with the quarians provided that the Quarians were willing to do the same. How can you also possibley justify Cerberus torturing Jack as a little girl just to see if it will make her a strong biotic? Moreover, how can you justify Cerberus infiltrating an Alliance special education program (Grissom Academy) to repetedly drug a borderline autistic biotic girl and later chase her to the Flotilla to recapture her and nearly destroying a Quarian ship in the process? If you even attempt to justify that, then I hope that Cerberus's next experiment is on you.

Your Shepard knows of Legion and the original geth. Your crew knows of Legion and the original geth. Cerberus and the Alliance does not. They only did what was necessary to ensure the geth do not attack organics anymore and prevent a future conflict. Keep in mind that the they only know the geth from their encounters with heretic geth. So naturally they are going to assume that all geth are hostile. When faced with a relentless enemy intent on your destruction, you do what ever it takes to ensure survival. Ethical convictions are irrelevant.

Furthermore, using David to exploit the geth's religious tendencies is no different from re-purposing the heretic virus to rewrite the heretics to be accepted back into geth collective. There is only different means to the same end. You can argue that should you choose to give Legion to Cerberus, you can still acquire geth allies against the Old Machines by use of Project Overlord.

I can easily justify all of Cerberus' operations. Their operations are a means to an end and the ends always justify the means.

I agree with you... These guys are metagaming...

[Worrywort]

I freed him. I know it's just a game, but I had a tough time even looking at the screen.

[wizardryforever]

Spectre_907 wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

There's no basis for thinking that they will attack either, other than simple paranoia and fear.  As I said, before Legion's input, we have no idea what the Geth are thinking, whether they view Sovereign's destruction with anger, horror, or trepidation.  They could be massing behind the veil, but they also could have reconsidered their views, and their actions in support of the Reapers.  After all, if you could defeat their god, why would they be a problem?  My point is that since we have no solid evidence either way, there is no justifiable reason to torture someone against their will in a horrific experiment.  Legion's knowledge just reinforces the truth, that project Overlord was comepletely unnecessary.  In endorsing project Overlord, you are endorsing not only the torture of an innocent man (an autistic one at that), but also the brainwashing of an entire species simply because they don't believe as you do.  How does this make you any better than the Reapers?  As I said, don't become what you're fighting against.  Torture is never justified.

The heretic geth attacked Alliance colonies and the Citadel without warning or provocation. That alone makes them the enemy. They don't have the means nor the desire to reason with organics and thus, their destruction is the only means to ensure the survival of organics. This is a matter of survival. Ethical concerns are secondary. Granted the heretics are a splinter faction of the geth but only WE as Shepard know this and not at the time the Illusive Man sanctioned Project Overlord. Cerberus and the Alliance does NOT know this. It only becomes unnecessary given certain choices made after the Reaper IFF and during Tali and Legion's loyalty missions but to say it is completely unncecessary is not true. If you reveal Rael's logs to the admiralty and give Legion to cerberus or destroy the heretics, Project Overlord ensures you will have geth allies against the reapers just as much as not revealing Rael's evidence and rewriting the heretics. This makes the project necessary.

Also, your assuming David was forced into this against his will. He volunteered for this. The only thing forced on him was the final step with his integration with the VI and only then, after it went rogue did he want it to stop. Don't think he is some innocent party in this, he willingly cooperated with Cerberus.

Few who agree with the paragon morality would argue against rewriting the heretics but if you want to say that those who endorsed Project Overlord are as bad as the reapers, rewriting the heretics makes a paragon no different. This is only a different means to the same end: controlling another species for a hidden agenda. Even Legion agrees with the criticisms about the ethical concern of "brainwashing" the heretics and says that one should not use one's own ethical convictions to judge another.

Those who use the bolded statement are usually the type to end up convicted of war crimes.  Just saying.

We're also making a pretty big assumption that Project Overlord will succeed if you continue David's torture.  Given how disastrously unsuccessful it was before now, there is no reason to believe that will change.  I seem to recall one of Archer's records saying that David doesn't really understand the experiment, but given his unique qualifications, he was chosen for the job.  He then says that David might even enjoy it.  Granted, I only played it once so far, so I might me misremembering.

As for the comparison to the Reapers, I made that comparison because they indoctrinate people to believe as they do, eventually ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL of them.  Project Overlord is meant to do the exact same thing to the Geth; the analogy is pretty straightforward to me.  With the Heretic station, there are other concerns to consider, like the fact that the Heretics aren't the whole race, and the fact that they were planning on brainwashing the Geth before you show up.  So rewriting the Heretics has a bit more going for it than Project Overlord.  Not that I endorse it necessarily, since I view each decision with equal merit in that case.  I usually just choose the one that my Shepard would do in that circumstance, depending on which type of Shepard I'm playing.