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[eternalnightmare13]

Zaydin wrote...

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

I left him with Archer while playing with my fave Shep. I role played it that way cause my Shep is a Cerebus man and sees the ends justifying the means. Archer made a cluster **** of Project Overlord but with David still alive that doesn't mean something cannot be salvaged from it. My Shep is earth born so he didn't grow up with the emotional entanglement that others may suffer from.

You have no soul, then.

****** off.

Modifié par eternalnightmare13, 16 juin 2010 - 07:31 .

[Keldon Northwind]

"Quiet please, make it stop!" over and over. I pistol-whipped his brother and set David free. No one deserves to be put through that kind of torture. I loved the last conversation where Shepard threatens to shoot Archer if he ever tries to come after him or his brother again.

[Ieldra]

Here's my take on the situation from a moderate Renegade viewpoint:

Yes, morality isn't everything. Expedient choices must sometimes be made. But extreme measures need extreme justifications, andpainful experiments on unwilling humans are an extreme measure. I do not see a sufficient justification for that. If the results were likely to help against the Reapers, then it might have been justified, but as it is: no. This is assuming that most people play Overlord after the suicide mission. If you haven't recruited Legion yet, or given it to Cerberus, your viewpoint may differ sufficiently that leaving David there can be seen as justified.

I'd like to contrast this with the Collector base decision:

Keeping the Collector base:
(a) does no immediate damage to anyone (except the enemy, of course)
( may deliver useful data for the conflict with the Reapers
© may have bad long-term consequences on a large scale (the base in TIM's hands)

Leaving David hooked up:
(a) leaves a human in a state of pain, undeservedly and unwillingly.
( may deliver useful data, but not against any known threat (if you have Legion)
© bad long-term consequences on a large scale seem unlikely.

As I see it, ( and © cancel each other out in both cases, leaving (a) as the deciding factor.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 juin 2010 - 07:53 .

[Wildecker]

I unhooked him ASAP.

What did we learn from Overlord?

It takes a very special mindset to communicate in Geth code.

It is a very unpleasant experience to be interfaced to a VI and put in charge of a group of sentient machines. So unpleasant that the human part cannot maintain control, let alone follow orders.



And the last thing I want loose out there is a powerful VI in charge of a Geth armada combined with a once-human mind bent on getting even and settling scores for all the pain. Just like Toombs, but with bigger guns and more "men".

[incinerator950]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's my take on the situation from a moderate Renegade viewpoint:

Yes, morality isn't everything. Expedient choices must sometimes be made. But extreme measures need extreme justifications, andpainful experiments on unwilling humans are an extreme measure. I do not see a sufficient justification for that. If the results were likely to help against the Reapers, then it might have been justified, but as it is: no. This is assuming that most people play Overlord after the suicide mission. If you haven't recruited Legion yet, or given it to Cerberus, your viewpoint may differ sufficiently that leaving David there can be seen as justified.

I'd like to contrast this with the Collector base decision:

Keeping the Collector base:
(a) does no immediate damage to anyone (except the enemy, of course)
( may deliver useful data for the conflict with the Reapers
© may have bad long-term consequences on a large scale (the base in TIM's hands)

Leaving David hooked up:
(a) leaves a human in a state of pain, undeservedly and unwillingly.
( may deliver useful data, but not against any known threat (if you have Legion)
© bad long-term consequences on a large scale seem unlikely.

As I see it, ( and © cancel each other out in both cases, leaving (a) as the deciding factor.

Practical points, I like you already.  Being said, I completely agree, although I don't regret what I did, I would have probably dislocated Archer's jaw and immidiatly messaged TIM about the project.  

[tmk]

From what I understood, David wasn't even really controlling the geth, he was able to communicate with them. I.e. I don't think he'd be able to force them into doing something they didn't agree with in the first place. Well, guess what, I already have geth on my team, whom I can easily communicate with, so the whole project was redundant. It could result in geth learning that humans are willing to torture one of their own in attempt to control them. It most likely wouldn't teach anything new to the humans. Cerberus, maybe, but in my opinion, the less that particular group knows, the better.



It is slightly annoying though, that due to the way P/R system works, picking the paragon option means I'll have even less chance to use renegade options when I want to (Tali's trial, Kelham's interrogation, etc)...

[Ieldra]

tmk wrote...
It is slightly annoying though, that due to the way P/R system works, picking the paragon option means I'll have even less chance to use renegade options when I want to (Tali's trial, Kelham's interrogation, etc)...

If you do this after the suicide mission, it won't matter.

[incinerator950]

Ieldra2 wrote...

tmk wrote...
It is slightly annoying though, that due to the way P/R system works, picking the paragon option means I'll have even less chance to use renegade options when I want to (Tali's trial, Kelham's interrogation, etc)...

If you do this after the suicide mission, it won't matter.

This is exactly what I did, probably why I had a little better of a time with fully upgraded Characters, Legion with full Sniper Upgrades and a Widow, and a really pissed off Zaeed (to be fair, his badassery is unchanged with his anger even after killing Veedo)

[Arijharn]

But, David volunteered to undertake the experiment. He may of done so out of ignorance out of what it'd involve... I certainly would of if I knew it would mean I'd have to be crucified like that.

[Keldon Northwind]

Arijharn wrote...

But, David volunteered to undertake the experiment. He may of done so out of ignorance out of what it'd involve... I certainly would of if I knew it would mean I'd have to be crucified like that.

He volunteered to be a part of the experiment to some extent, yes. But he was forced - or well, not so much forced as literally had no say in the matter - into the neural network of the Geth to try and control them. A thousand of voices all speaking as one and he's caught in the middle with no way out. "Quite please, make it stop!" He never wanted this.

[Aggie Punbot]

I'm just glad David managed to survive my use of the M-920 Cain at the end there. That could have been...awkward.

[cachx]

The impact of the decision is somewhat lessened if you talk with Legion for more than 2 seconds. Any sane man will unhook him.

My renegade Shep that never woke Legion up however...

[kidbd15]

I let him go. It was emotional to say the least, and just seeing those tears, man... great job BioWare... I hope, at the very least, that ALL of ME3 and future DLC are up to this DLC calibur.

[hawat333]

Ieldra2 wrote...
..
Keeping the Collector base:
..
© may have bad long-term consequences on a large scale (the base in TIM's hands)

Leaving David hooked up:
..
© bad long-term consequences on a large scale seem unlikely.

As I see it, ( and © cancel each other out in both cases, leaving (a) as the deciding factor.

With C, I could debate.
We don't know if keeping the base will have good or bad long-term consequences.
But anyways, it doesn't worth comparing the two. It never does.
(and yeah, by this I defy the whole legal system based on precedents, hee-he)

[Lord_Tirian]

Wildecker wrote...

And the last thing I want loose out there is a powerful VI in charge of a Geth armada combined with a once-human mind bent on getting even and settling scores for all the pain. Just like Toombs, but with bigger guns and more "men".

Not to mention that it's a Cerberus project, which means two things: a) it will end up unethical (again), blow up in their faces (again).

Literally every Cerberus project turned out that way. No way they should get their hands on that - the only result will be insane Geth wiping out the population, because remember the experiments with, well everything? Yeah.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Captain Uccisore wrote...
I let him go, keeping him the way he was just seemed... inhuman.
The Illusive Man's message at the end pissed me off though. He was more concerned with the data and how freeing David "...set us back several years." Well, **** you too, TIM.

Typical TIM, his projects are such a mess.
No doubt one of them will come up trumps (be successful) and BW will profer us the "morally ambiguous" question: "was it worth it? the answer will be no.. because by then it wil be a loaded bullsh!zz question... (sorry to be a downer)

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 16 juin 2010 - 12:03 .

[Foolsfolly]

The Elite Elite wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

Look at you two argue. Hello the Geth (Legion) already stated that working together furthers mutual goals that meaning because it is like every other Geth (minus the "heretics") the Geth are already on your side and brutally torturing that guy is pointless. By going into that research your pretty much throwing yourself into a war with the Geth because you're trying to forcibly control them and if they find out your screwed. What benefit would Legion gain by lying about wanting to help and by lying about the Geth factions? and if it were lying then why would you go to a station that has heretics and convert/destroy them? All that for a joke? I think not, it pretty much proved its not lying and your mistrust of it is just plain stupid. You're repeating yourself anyway find another reason why it shouldn't be trusted. and you forgot that its obsessed with you also showing that it would gain nothing from lying to you.

For a joke? No. Again, this could be a way to build up trust with Shep to gather as much intel as possible to send back to the Geth to help them prepare for a possible invasion. Just look at what happens after doing Tail's and Legion's loyalty missions. It was completely prepared to send information back to the Geth that it full well admits would likely have resulted in going to war with the Quarians. If it wasn't for Tail catching it you wouldn't have ever known it was going to send that knowledge back to the Geth. So whose to say it hasn't been sending other knowledge back to the Geth? Also, how does its obsession with Shep show it would gain nothing from lying?

I have no idea if someone in the thread already answered this and I don't care.

What the quarians did was a war crime and Legion telling the other geth about it isn't inciting a war the quarians are already locked in a war and continually trying to win and wage that war. They're the warmongers the geth want to be left alone to create their own future.

Talk to Legion a bit and you'd know all this.

And by the way, EDI's the one making sure he hasn't been sending information back to the geth. Both times Legion accesses the geth collective he has to break through EDI's firewalls and both times EDI tells you about Legion trying to access the geth.

Your paranoia about the geth reminds me of Loghain's paranoia about the Orlesians.

[Neuzhelin]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Keeping the Collector base:
(a) does no immediate damage to anyone (except the enemy, of course)
( may deliver useful data for the conflict with the Reapers
© may have bad long-term consequences on a large scale (the base in TIM's hands)

a) Indoctrinates cerberus personel, many human casualties (similar to direlict reaper). Reaper technology already combined with human in Retribution. Leaves reaper technology in hands of a xenophobic totalitarian black ops human supremasist group.
may or may not provide data that may or may not work or backfire. reapers could or could not be using it as a trap.
c) long term consequencce of either Cerberus dominating the galaxy, thus making other civilizations revolt against a Stalinist rule TIM has or open a new passage for the reapers to begin a cycle again.

d) If humanity embraces such methods it is no different then the reaper race when it comes to the final goals. I see no point is sacraficing lives of so many when it comes to two conflicting sapient races. Thus, reapers win even if they lose.

[Steingrimur Steingrimsson]

TIM is such a great character... Charismatic, voiced by Martin Sheen and a chain smoker (adding a more human element), while being the most sinister, calculative and unsympathetic being in the entire galaxy. Human lives do not matter to him in any way. As long as he gains intel, information or knowlegde all other concerns are irrelevant. I think this was hinted at more than ever in project Overlord, he practically black mailed Dr. Archer to take drastic and rash actions. As a master of playing people with speeches and persuasion, I found his mail a bit too revealing of his true intentions. He should have lied again, like after Jack's loyalty mission, where he claimed he had nothing to do with the entire project. Revealing that you find torturing an autistic man and exploiting his abilities to be the best option, is not that illusive...

[Neuzhelin]

I am happy to see that people agree much more on this one, unlike the Rachni genocide, council destruction, and  reaper technology in the hands of the xenophobic Cerberus. Perhaps it is because this is a general opinion and not an oppinion specific topic?

[Foolsfolly]

Steingrimur Steingrimsson wrote...

TIM is such a great character... Charismatic, voiced by Martin Sheen and a chain smoker (adding a more human element), while being the most sinister, calculative and unsympathetic being in the entire galaxy. Human lives do not matter to him in any way. As long as he gains intel, information or knowlegde all other concerns are irrelevant. I think this was hinted at more than ever in project Overlord, he practically black mailed Dr. Archer to take drastic and rash actions. As a master of playing people with speeches and persuasion, I found his mail a bit too revealing of his true intentions. He should have lied again, like after Jack's loyalty mission, where he claimed he had nothing to do with the entire project. Revealing that you find torturing an autistic man and exploiting his abilities to be the best option, is not that illusive...

BioWare has to be blunt. Have you seen how many supporters the Illusive Man has here. They take his rhetoric at face value and if BioWare doesn't get a bit blunt on the Illusive Man soon when it turns out he's a villain in the third one people will cry foul saying they derailed his character or that his actions were out of character. The guy's always been a villain and no good can be gained by furthering his selfish goals.

[Arhka]

The only successful project that we've seen from Cerberus is the Normandy SR-2 and Commander Shepard's revival.

[Markinator_123]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Steingrimur Steingrimsson wrote...

TIM is such a great character... Charismatic, voiced by Martin Sheen and a chain smoker (adding a more human element), while being the most sinister, calculative and unsympathetic being in the entire galaxy. Human lives do not matter to him in any way. As long as he gains intel, information or knowlegde all other concerns are irrelevant. I think this was hinted at more than ever in project Overlord, he practically black mailed Dr. Archer to take drastic and rash actions. As a master of playing people with speeches and persuasion, I found his mail a bit too revealing of his true intentions. He should have lied again, like after Jack's loyalty mission, where he claimed he had nothing to do with the entire project. Revealing that you find torturing an autistic man and exploiting his abilities to be the best option, is not that illusive...

BioWare has to be blunt. Have you seen how many supporters the Illusive Man has here. They take his rhetoric at face value and if BioWare doesn't get a bit blunt on the Illusive Man soon when it turns out he's a villain in the third one people will cry foul saying they derailed his character or that his actions were out of character. The guy's always been a villain and no good can be gained by furthering his selfish goals.

I believe that the Illusive man might become an antagonist in Mass Effect 3. I look forward to killing him. Glad I blew up that base. So much for moral ambiguity eh?

[Foolsfolly]

Arhka wrote...

The only successful project that we've seen from Cerberus is the Normandy SR-2 and Commander Shepard's revival.

Only successful in Cerberus's eye if Shepard's a Renegade and keeps the base. Otherwise it was a lot of money that goes rogue and costs Cerberus/Illusive Man a chance at some nice shiny Collector tech.