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[Neuzhelin]

The Elite Elite wrote...

Neuzhelin wrote...
So you will do exactly as the reapers do: destroy a civilization? Because of  an ally you percieve a  risk? What, you can't rely on your own first hand  experience instead of relying on ancient Council data (that you probably killed anyways, that does not mention the Queens AT ALL?).

That's the thing. At that point you have no first hand experience with the Rachni. All you have to go on is the history of the Rachni Wars. So you'll ignore all that history you're given and just take the Queen at her word that the Rachni aren't normally aggressive but their "songs" somehow got "soured" all the while your hand is hovering above the two buttons that would either free her or destroy her? And how is that like the Reapers? They wait until organic life has advanced to a point they want then come in and wipe everyone out. Here we have a history of the Rachni being nothing but violent and never peaceful so I wipe them out because all the history points to them being nothing but dangerous.

But don't you see, pre-emptive strikes is what you do when you murder a nation/enslave a people or use them as tools whether it is Rachine, Krogan or Geth based on very limited info.. Unlike the reapers, you don't have any goals you just do it because it "risky".

This wasn't a pre-emptive strike. This was ensuring that the Rachni Wars were successful. I'm just taking the position that was already taken by every other organic species before humanity came on the scene.

Okay, so you give power to a Stalinistic dictator that thinks big. Muder some millions here, enslave a nation there, lose a world here, experiment on your own people there, attack the Quarian fleet here, use other races as "shock troops" as he calls the Cerberus experiments in ME1 there.... Funny you mention Hitler, because that is exactly what I picture with all the comments you have made. So in your case Sovereign was right "your salvation through destruction".

As I said. I already know that TIM isn't trustworthy and could very well use whatever tech we get to oppress nonhumans, but at the moment defeating the Reapers is all that matters. If we don't stop the Reapers there won't be a galaxy to live under the boot of a dictator TIM.

So you think a place CREATING a REAPER wouldn't have INDOCTRINATION PRESENT IN A REAPER when a REAPER that has been inactive for 37 million years still indoctrinates?

Collecter base does not equal a Reaper. Could it have indoctrination? Sure, but we don't know that.

Okay, let's imagine that Cerberus sacrafices enough lives to gather the needed data. They use Reaper technology against a reaper fleet - who do you think has the advantage? Now, let's imagine the impossible - Cerberus wins - they defeat the reapers with small numbers of inferior reaper based technology and there is a power vacuum. Do you think the council will just let Cerberus run the galaxy? Do you
think every single race will bow to humanity? Sure, they might after a
while - yet it is not worth finding the answer in that way. TIM has already started creating a reaper-human hybrid and that is not one that should run the galaxy. I believe you hadly think at all about the consequences.

Again, as I've said I know this could end with a dictator TIM and a galaxy in a war against humanity. However, I find that far more preferable to a galaxy that died because we didn't get the tech we needed to defeat the Reapers because of being afraid that TIM will abuse the tech.

Technology for free? Technology taken? Irrelevant. Okay you can ignore it because of slight variations, yet you talk some petty risks solved radically and ignorenot only the risk Cerberus with Reaper technology but the one with just Reaper technology?

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our
technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we
desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because
we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.
"

Ring a bell?

The difference here is that the tech in the Collector base isn't likely something the Reapers ever thought we'd get our hands on. With that we might go further than they originally wanted us to. They didn't leave that tech around for us to gather like they left the relays.

Your selective application of "risks" can only be logically explained by intense role playing of a renegade (with everything the word implies), yet I fear you are not looking for logical explanation even when you have pages of it.

So because we come to different conclusions over these things it must be because I'm not thinking logically. Nope, only the people who agree with you are thinking logically.<_<

You have rachni SOLDIERS acting as mindless troops. At the war there was not a point a contact with a sentient rachni. Well, you have it. It is reasonable, peacful and offers alliance, saying that the past was blurred and non coherent, hence not the choice of the rachni. So you think this queen, realizing the situation and explaining to you, will go rogue already knowing the cost? Just because it can go rogue? And you are willing to see that risk enough to completely destroy the race?

"Here we have a history of the Rachni being nothing but violent and never
peaceful so I wipe them out because all the history points to them
being nothing but dangerous."

Yea, you have some history notes on SOLDIER and here you experience rachni for what they truly are because their actions are goverened by a QUEEN. What difference does it make how you wipe them out? Reaper's goal seems more noble to me compared to your actions as they preserve nations at least, within a technological (a word you understand and like so much?) reaper ship, while you want to destroy just because it is "risky".

"This wasn't a pre-emptive strike. This was ensuring that the Rachni Wars
were successful."

Well since the only survivor representing the intelligent, sapient rachni is on Noveria, I see no other word for killing it out of fear then a "pre-emptive strike".  What do you call it? Selective genocide?

"I'm just taking the position that was already taken by every other
organic species before humanity came on the scene."

A very regressive way of thinking, which you should realize facing the reapers, since "every other organic specie" ignores it (even humanity as a whole, represented by Udina).

"As I said. I already know that TIM isn't trustworthy and could very
well use whatever tech we get to oppress nonhumans, but at the moment
defeating the Reapers is all that matters. If we don't stop the Reapers
there won't be a galaxy to live under the boot of a dictator TIM."

There are many options you have besides laying all your "chips" (as in gamble, which you for some reason situationally seem to like and dislike) in the hands of a man who desires reaper technology.

"

So you think a place CREATING a REAPER wouldn't have
INDOCTRINATION PRESENT IN A REAPER when a REAPER that has been inactive
for 37 million years still indoctrinates?

Collecter base
does not equal a Reaper. Could it have indoctrination? Sure, but we
don't know that."

Again, this shows the hypocricy displayed through all your posts, you selectively ignore the grand threats while maximising the minor ones.

"The difference here is that the tech in the Collector base isn't likely
something the Reapers ever thought we'd get our hands on. With that we
might go further than they originally wanted us to. They didn't leave
that tech around for us to gather like they left the relays."

Speculation. Even convential Normandy weaponry could crippple a collector vessel that travels through many systems besides the Omega 4-relay one.  Again, selective thinking.

"So because we come to different conclusions over these things it must be
because I'm not thinking logically. Nope, only the people
who agree with you are thinking logically.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]"

No, because your posts are incoherent, contradictive to the things in ME universe and even to your own posts.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 16 juin 2010 - 09:53 .

[sta697]

for a paragon it was an easy choise i mean the geth are not hostile against the humans and i think that it's a plote hole in that mission

[The Elite Elite]

Neuzhelin wrote...

You have rachni SOLDIERS acting as mindless troops. At the war there was not a point a contact with a sentient rachni. Well, you have it. It is reasonable, peacful and offers alliance, saying that the past was blurred and non coherent, hence not the choice of the rachni. So you think this queen, realizing the situation and explaining to you, will go rogue already knowing the cost? Just because it can go rogue? And you are willing to see that risk enough to completely destroy the race?

The thing has a gun at her head with your hand on the trigger. Of course she'll that all that past with the Rachni Wars was a mistake and that they didn't have a choice and she'll be your ally, no matter if that is the truth or not. And no, I don't think it would go rouge right away. It could go off and replace their numbers and after a long enough time go back to being a threat to the galaxy.

Yea, you have some history notes on SOLDIER and here you experience rachni for what they truly are because their actions are goverened by a QUEEN. What difference does it make how you wipe them out? Reaper's goal seems more noble to me compared to your actions as they preserve nations at least, within a technological (a word you understand and like so much?) reaper ship, while you want to destroy just because it is "risky".

The Reapers want to kill every living thing, regardless if they are dangerous or not. I'm killing a race that, as far as we know at that point, has been nothing but hostile. I'm not for wiping out races for fun.

Well since the only survivor representing the intelligent, sapient rachni is on Noveria, I see no other word for killing it out of fear then a "pre-emptive strike".  What do you call it? Selective genocide?

I call it eliminating what all our previous evidence has pointed to as being a threat.

A very regressive way of thinking, which you should realize facing the reapers, since "every other organic specie" ignores it (even humanity as a whole, represented by Udina).

Ah, but the difference with the Reapers is I have the vision from the beacon that has shown me the threat. With the Rachni all I have to go on is the history of the Rachni Wars and the word of a Rachni queen that has a gun to her head.

There are many options you have besides laying all your "chips" (as in gamble, which you for some reason situationally seem to like and dislike) in the hands of a man who desires reaper technology.

That's all the game gives us to go with. Either destroy the base and lose anything we might have gained by keeping it forever, or put it in the hands of a possible future dictator. Given that we won't have to worry about TIM being a dictator if we all die I'll take that risk. So, just like if I had the option I'd leave the fate of the Rachni queen in the hands of the council, so to would I hand the base over to the Alliance rather than TIM.

Again, this shows the hypocricy displayed through all your posts, you selectively ignore the grand threats while maximising the minor ones.

Hypocricy? All I'm doing is taking what evidence the game has given me up to that point of time and trying to make the best decision I can. Sometimes I think the risk sounds worth it (Legion, the Collector Base) other times all the evidence points me to thinking that it doesn't sound like a worth while risk to take. (The Rachni Queen)

Speculation. Even convential Normandy weaponry could crippple a collector vessel that travels through many systems besides the Omega 4-relay one.  Again, selective thinking.

Yes, that is speculation. Again, that's all I can go with. We've already gone along the Reaper tech line like they wanted, I doubt we have the time to start going along our own tech path before the Reapers come.

No, because your posts are incoherent, contradictive to the things in ME universe and even to your own posts.

If I'm not being very coherent I do appologize. I know I'm not the best at getting my point across sometimes. But anyway, what have I contradicted in either the ME universe or my own posts? Please enlighten me, as I do know sometimes I do forget the facts the games and books have said. (Afterall, this is only a game, there are a lot more important things for me to remember than some details of a silly fictional universe)

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm surprised.



People are happy to refuse the advances and let one already traumatized soul free, rejoice in sticking it to TIM, and pat themselves on the back for putting to stop this experiment once and for all...



except that it isn't once and for all, since TIM pretty much says he's going to continue/restart the project, you didn't stop it and instead extended the suffering of the next subject by years, you let one subject go only to necessitate the introduction of another subject and therefore adding to the number of souls affected, and Cerberus and the Alliance will still end up getting the data in the end.



One would think a Paragon would want the fewest number of people to suffer for the shortest amount of time, not extend the abuse in time and number of people.



Or did I misunderstand the end?

[Neuzhelin]

The Elite Elite wrote...

Neuzhelin wrote...

You have rachni SOLDIERS acting as mindless troops. At the war there was not a point a contact with a sentient rachni. Well, you have it. It is reasonable, peacful and offers alliance, saying that the past was blurred and non coherent, hence not the choice of the rachni. So you think this queen, realizing the situation and explaining to you, will go rogue already knowing the cost? Just because it can go rogue? And you are willing to see that risk enough to completely destroy the race?

The thing has a gun at her head with your hand on the trigger. Of course she'll that all that past with the Rachni Wars was a mistake and that they didn't have a choice and she'll be your ally, no matter if that is the truth or not. And no, I don't think it would go rouge right away. It could go off and replace their numbers and after a long enough time go back to being a threat to the galaxy.

Yea, you have some history notes on SOLDIER and here you experience rachni for what they truly are because their actions are goverened by a QUEEN. What difference does it make how you wipe them out? Reaper's goal seems more noble to me compared to your actions as they preserve nations at least, within a technological (a word you understand and like so much?) reaper ship, while you want to destroy just because it is "risky".

The Reapers want to kill every living thing, regardless if they are dangerous or not. I'm killing a race that, as far as we know at that point, has been nothing but hostile. I'm not for wiping out races for fun.

Well since the only survivor representing the intelligent, sapient rachni is on Noveria, I see no other word for killing it out of fear then a "pre-emptive strike".  What do you call it? Selective genocide?

I call it eliminating what all our previous evidence has pointed to as being a threat.

A very regressive way of thinking, which you should realize facing the reapers, since "every other organic specie" ignores it (even humanity as a whole, represented by Udina).

Ah, but the difference with the Reapers is I have the vision from the beacon that has shown me the threat. With the Rachni all I have to go on is the history of the Rachni Wars and the word of a Rachni queen that has a gun to her head.

There are many options you have besides laying all your "chips" (as in gamble, which you for some reason situationally seem to like and dislike) in the hands of a man who desires reaper technology.

That's all the game gives us to go with. Either destroy the base and lose anything we might have gained by keeping it forever, or put it in the hands of a possible future dictator. Given that we won't have to worry about TIM being a dictator if we all die I'll take that risk. So, just like if I had the option I'd leave the fate of the Rachni queen in the hands of the council, so to would I hand the base over to the Alliance rather than TIM.

Again, this shows the hypocricy displayed through all your posts, you selectively ignore the grand threats while maximising the minor ones.

Hypocricy? All I'm doing is taking what evidence the game has given me up to that point of time and trying to make the best decision I can. Sometimes I think the risk sounds worth it (Legion, the Collector Base) other times all the evidence points me to thinking that it doesn't sound like a worth while risk to take. (The Rachni Queen)

Speculation. Even convential Normandy weaponry could crippple a collector vessel that travels through many systems besides the Omega 4-relay one.  Again, selective thinking.

Yes, that is speculation. Again, that's all I can go with. We've already gone along the Reaper tech line like they wanted, I doubt we have the time to start going along our own tech path before the Reapers come.

No, because your posts are incoherent, contradictive to the things in ME universe and even to your own posts.

If I'm not being very coherent I do appologize. I know I'm not the best at getting my point across sometimes. But anyway, what have I contradicted in either the ME universe or my own posts? Please enlighten me, as I do know sometimes I do forget the facts the games and books have said. (Afterall, this is only a game, there are a lot more important things for me to remember than some details of a silly fictional universe)

I was about to reply to every single point I have replied to several times arguing with circular thinking but I will start from the end with

"If I'm not being very coherent I do appologize. I know I'm not the
best at getting my point across sometimes. But anyway, what have I
contradicted in either the ME universe or my own posts? "

The Reapers want to kill every living thing, regardless if they are
dangerous or not. I'm killing a race that, as far as we know at that
point, has been nothing but hostile. I'm not for wiping out
races for fun.

For reapers it is a matter of survival, it is their nature, its PROGRAM or something else we cannot coprehend. For them it is a cycle, not what you refer to as "fun". You have a point about self preservation but what alternative does the rachni queen provide? When I read posts of most renegade appologists they tend to lack 1 quality: empathy. Here comes the contradiction: you admit that rachni can not rebuild instantly, thus do no pose an immediated threat. You admit that the reapers post an immediate threat: hence you have: a) a recruitment of a PLAUSIBLE ally, preservation of a unique culture and race that is near complete extinction, so as a sentient being unlike other rachni ever encountered before (because of the sex difference, DOCUMENTED by the lore) you want to annihalate it?.

As you pointed out, it can't expand, it can't wage a total war but it can do what it tells and not what you speculate about: enlighten its people about rachni's history, relations in the galaxy and rally against a common and and old enemy: reapers. (while you do not know it at that moment, rachni do send an Asari messanger and do retreat when encountered in space, showing no hostility whatsoever but instead acknowledging their enemy - the Collectors and thus the Reapers)

So yes, if the rachni queen for some reason goes suicidally rogue don't you think it is just a little barbaric to build the whole equasion on an IF that either 1) does not matter in the near future as you so nicely put it or 2) Is a risk too neglectible if it occurs. Now TRY to be a bit empathatic and imagine another ORGANIC being, such as a human.

"Ah, but the difference with the Reapers is I have the vision from the
beacon that has shown me the threat. With the Rachni all I have to go on
is the history of the Rachni Wars and the word of a Rachni queen that
has a gun to her head."

Once again you are being inconsistent: ignoring one thing and skeptical of the other. A vision? A dream? Remember, you know nothing at that point so you RIGHTFULLY base your decisions on THAT EXACT moment.

"I call it eliminating what all our previous evidence has pointed to
as being a threat."

It is irrelevant what you call it because it is by definition pre-emptive. You know NOTHING, you SPECULATE and draw a conclusion resulting in an action based on nothing but SPECULATION, hence it is pre-emptive. India that was at war with Pakistan before speculates on the risks of a new this time nuclear war and wipes out Pakistan?

"That's all the game gives us to go with. Either destroy the base and
lose anything we might have gained by keeping it forever, or put it in
the hands of a possible future dictator. Given that we won't have to
worry about TIM being a dictator if we all die I'll take that risk. So,
just like if I had the option I'd leave the fate of the Rachni queen in
the hands of the council, so to would I hand the base over to the
Alliance rather than TIM."

Again, inconsistency. You have a speculation about a new Rachni war (the consequences of which are MINIMAL) and you have an alien, possibly indoctrinating, possibly trapping, ambushing and/or backfiring against an already more advanced enemy in the technology they themselves have created. And you talk about risks? In one case MIGHT long after the reaper threat have a conflict or MIGHT have a unique ally faithful, thankful and benefitting humanity in the long run AND you have something completely UNKNOWABLE and potentially disastreous for the WHOLE galaxy. You talk about what you rather will, well I would rather have a united galaxy against a common threat, then a divided one under Cerberus rule.

"We've already gone along the Reaper tech line like they wanted, I doubt
we have the time to start going along our own tech path before the
Reapers come." 

That is true and it almost had disastreous consequences. It is only because of Prothean developed technology the first victory was possible. If it was purely Reaper - no reprogrammed Citadel, no Conduit - a new cycle.
And that is an aspect Sovereign (and later Vigil) mentions very accurately on Virmire, I suggest you replay it and examine the possible risks, from a first hand experience, from the ACTUAL, not IMAGINARY enemy.

"Please enlighten me, as I do know sometimes I do forget the facts the
games and books have said. (Afterall, this is only a game, there are a
lot more important things for me to remember than some details of a
silly fictional universe)"

So I can shall assume that you are familiar with the indoctrination in Revelation, Cerberus agenda in Ascension and the comming reaper/human hybrid in Retribution? Well, then it is even harder for me to understand why you wrote some of the things you did. Nevertheless I agree on your last line and yet I feel like I owe you an answer after all the posts and hope to provide some information, perspective and analysis.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 16 juin 2010 - 11:45 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Is it really that hard to quote properly? I mean, it's just seven keystrokes, and it makes it so much easier to track and cuts down on the length.


That said, one point I can't resist making is how anyone can think the Protheans developed their own technology. Their greatest achievement, the very thing that has helped break the cycle, was a pale immitation of the Mass Relays, the epitome of Reaper technology.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 juin 2010 - 11:37 .

[Neuzhelin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is it really that hard to quote properly? I mean, it's just seven keystrokes, and it makes it so much easier to track and cuts down on the length.

My bad, I'm very new to forums as a whole and I realize it looks stupid. I replied perhaps too fast and should have given more time on the aesthetic look of my post, as I realize it looks like a boring wall of text. Do you have a link to a guide for shortcuts and commands for propper construction of a post?

[Neuzhelin]

I just wanted to clarify on rachni as an ally:

If you assume the queen is driven by self preservation, is not likely that the same self preservation will unite the rachni, as an organic, with the rest against the reapers? Is the rest not completely irrelevant then if the queen acknowledges the need for self preservation? Surely it is contradictive?

[The Elite Elite]

Neuzhelin wrote...
For reapers it is a matter of survival, it is their nature, its PROGRAM or something else we cannot coprehend. For them it is a cycle, not what you refer to as "fun". You have a point about self preservation but what alternative does the rachni queen provide? When I read posts of most renegade appologists they tend to lack 1 quality: empathy. Here comes the contradiction: you admit that rachni can not rebuild instantly, thus do no pose an immediated threat. You admit that the reapers post an immediate threat: hence you have: a) a recruitment of a PLAUSIBLE ally, preservation of a unique culture and race that is near complete extinction, so as a sentient being unlike other rachni ever encountered before (because of the sex difference, DOCUMENTED by the lore) you want to annihalate it?.

Here's where we disagree. You see them as a plausible ally, while I don't. I look at all the history we have on them and see nothing but violent engagements started by the Rachni. Since we can't possibly know at the time that they were under Reaper influence I see nothing to suggest that she isn't lying to me just to get me to let her go.

As you pointed out, it can't expand, it can't wage a total war but it can do what it tells and not what you speculate about: enlighten its people about rachni's history, relations in the galaxy and rally against a common and and old enemy: reapers. (while you do not know it at that moment, rachni do send an Asari messanger and do retreat when encountered in space, showing no hostility whatsoever but instead acknowledging their enemy - the Collectors and thus the Reapers)

That's if you take her at her word while she has a gun pointed at her head.

So yes, if the rachni queen for some reason goes suicidally rogue don't you think it is just a little barbaric to build the whole equasion on an IF that either 1) does not matter in the near future as you so nicely put it or 2) Is a risk too neglectible if it occurs. Now TRY to be a bit empathatic and imagine another ORGANIC being, such as a human.

My choice is not based on some far-fetched IF, but rather what the history we have on them has told us. So imagining another organic being doesn't work because our history with humans and other organics is not all violent. The history with Rachni has never been peaceful.

Once again you are being inconsistent: ignoring one thing and skeptical of the other. A vision? A dream? Remember, you know nothing at that point so you RIGHTFULLY base your decisions on THAT EXACT moment.

Oh, I don't think it makes any sense that Shep just suddenly believes in the Reapers at the start of the game. I'd find it more believable that Shep would believe in them only after getting the Cypher (spelling?) and seeing the full vision from the undamaged beacon. But again, this is something the game forces you to do so I have no ability to make a decision on that.

It is irrelevant what you call it because it is by definition pre-emptive. You know NOTHING, you SPECULATE and draw a conclusion resulting in an action based on nothing but SPECULATION, hence it is pre-emptive. India that was at war with Pakistan before speculates on the risks of a new this time nuclear war and wipes out Pakistan?

I do not speculate but base the decision on history. All the history with the Rachni is hostile. I have zero reason to believe they can be anything but that.

Again, inconsistency. You have a speculation about a new Rachni war (the consequences of which are MINIMAL) and you have an alien, possibly indoctrinating, possibly trapping, ambushing and/or backfiring against an already more advanced enemy in the technology they themselves have created. And you talk about risks? In one case MIGHT long after the reaper threat have a conflict or MIGHT have a unique ally faithful, thankful and benefitting humanity in the long run AND you have something completely UNKNOWABLE and potentially disastreous for the WHOLE galaxy. You talk about what you rather will, well I would rather have a united galaxy against a common threat, then a divided one under Cerberus rule.

The difference is that with the Rachni, given their history, I have zero reason to believe they'll be peaceful. As such I see no point to taking the risk of letting her go. With the Collector base, it might turn out well or it might blow up in Cerberus' faces. We have no way to know, but the possibility of there being tech we could use in there is to me worth the risk.

That is true and it almost had disastreous consequences. It is only because of Prothean developed technology the first victory was possible. If it was purely Reaper - no reprogrammed Citadel, no Conduit - a new cycle.
And that is an aspect Sovereign (and later Vigil) mentions very accurately on Virmire, I suggest you replay it and examine the possible risks, from a first hand experience, from the ACTUAL, not IMAGINARY enemy.

As someone else said, that's not really Prothean tech. The Conduit is just a mini Mass Relay that works one way, so it's still based on Reaper tech.

So I can shall assume that you are familiar with the indoctrination in Revelation, Cerberus agenda in Ascension and the comming reaper/human hybrid in Retribution? Well, then it is even harder for me to understand why you wrote some of the things you did. Nevertheless I agree on your last line and yet I feel like I owe you an answer after all the posts and hope to provide some information, perspective and analysis.

Yes, I'm familiar with Revelation and Ascension. (Though it has been a while since I read Ascension) As for the upcoming Retribution, no I didn't know that was dealing with a reaper/human hybrid. But again, a lot of the info in those books is going to be stuff Shep can't possibly know and so can't be used for in-game decisions if we're trying to truely role-play.

[Dean_the_Young]

Neuzhelin wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is it really that hard to quote properly? I mean, it's just seven keystrokes, and it makes it so much easier to track and cuts down on the length.

My bad, I'm very new to forums as a whole and I realize it looks stupid. I replied perhaps too fast and should have given more time on the aesthetic look of my post, as I realize it looks like a boring wall of text. Do you have a link to a guide for shortcuts and commands for propper construction of a post?

Use brackets [   ]  when typing to start/stop a command. Start is the command, /command ends.

For example,

quote /quote Will 'quote' something.

i /i will italicize
b /b will bold
u /u will underline

list /list will form a list format



So [q.uote][/q.uote]

[DuffyMJ]

The Elite Elite wrote...

What was done to David was immoral, disgusting, disturbing, and, sadly, for the greater good. I felt very bad about it, but I left him there. If there is a chance that this could work and bring the Geth under our control then it is worth it. All the lives saved because we could avoid a needless war with the Geth, not to mention having them as a tool to use against the Reapers. It's awful but when the stakes are the lives of every organic species in the entire galaxy you do whatever it takes. Sure, it feels good at the moment to save the poor guy, but what about all the people who will die if the Geth are not peaceful and we do end up at war with them? Is his life worth more than those countless lives that would die in such a war?

Don't be a utilitarian jerk, man.  Read some Charles Dickens! We're more than numbers...

[Neuzhelin]

The Elite Elite wrote...

Here's where we disagree. You see them as a plausible ally, while I don't. I look at all the history we have on them and see nothing but violent engagements started by the Rachni. Since we can't possibly know at the time that they were under Reaper influence I see nothing to suggest that she isn't lying to me just to get me to let her go.


That's if you take her at her word while she has a gun pointed at her head.

My choice is not based on some far-fetched IF, but rather what the history we have on them has told us. So imagining another organic being doesn't work because our history with humans and other organics is not all violent. The history with Rachni has never been peaceful.


I do not speculate but base the decision on history. All the history with the Rachni is hostile. I have zero reason to believe they can be anything but that.


The difference is that with the Rachni, given their history, I have zero reason to believe they'll be peaceful. As such I see no point to taking the risk of letting her go. With the Collector base, it might turn out well or it might blow up in Cerberus' faces. We have no way to know, but the possibility of there being tech we could use in there is to me worth the risk.

Okay I would like to clarify once again:

1) You stick with the gun/being being intimidated to, perhaps, lie. Pehaps, it was not clear but I called this: self preservation and I would like to underline the implication of AWARENESS of self preservation, which I see as a positive thing, while you see it as a negative one.

as I wrote in the post above, which you did not quote or reply to:

"I just wanted to clarify on rachni as an ally:

If you assume the queen is driven by self preservation, is not likely that the same self  preservation will unite the rachni, as an organic, with the rest against the reapers? Is the rest not completely irrelevant then if the queen  acknowledges the need for self preservation? Surely it is contradictive?"

2) I do not hold any naive believe of them as all loving peaceful society when it comes to history, but: history is written by winners: council. For once you hear the other side of the story and given an explanation: corruption. You can only safely assume one thing: rachi are intelligent (spacefaring and intelligent enough to fight Asari, Turian AND Salarian forces) and effective (same reason) and have unique abilities. Now you add the wish to survive. I have been combating circular logic for a while but I CANNOT spell it more clearly then I have.

As someone else said, that's not really Prothean tech. The Conduit is just a mini Mass Relay that works one way, so it's still based on Reaper tech.

No other civilization has created a mass relay (or understood the material). No other civilization understood the trap hidden in Citadel and no other civilization countered the signals sent by the Citadel. The results were the exact opposite then submission to the way that Reapers paved with their technologies. This is MY VERY SUBJECTIVE interpritation but based on the dialogue with Mordin and Legion (they have very specific lines when it comes to collectors/the heretic Gods that continue my thought.) that the Prothean way is the righteous (paragon) while the reaper (renegade) is the negative.

In a way, I hope that there are clear consequences for such actions with a Saren like (renegade) destiny if the Reaper technology is embraced or a final victory if the natural (prothean like) path is taken (paragon).

Also, I wondered did you save Desteny Ascension or let it be overwhelmed by the geth?

Yes, I'm familiar with Revelation and Ascension. (Though it has been a while since I read Ascension) As for the upcoming Retribution, no I didn't know that was dealing with a reaper/human hybrid. But again, a lot of the info in those books is going to be stuff Shep can't possibly know and so can't be used for in-game decisions if we're trying to truely role-play.

And it is fine if you ROLEPLAY a genocidal xenophobic human supremascist as I said earlier. I just got the impression that the logical solution with the best outcome based on the information presented and known was being discussed.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 17 juin 2010 - 02:26 .

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

My only complaint about Overload was that not doing the paragon interrupt didn't have you arrest Archer. I had images of Dr. Moreau in my head during that scene and really didn't want to let Archer get away. But the best DLC yet, way better than Stolen Memories.

[ajirahenry]

In this case, taking the renegade route was not fun at all. I took him away.

[Neuzhelin]

Use brackets [   ]  when typing to start/stop a command. Start is the command, /command ends.

For example,

quote /quote Will 'quote' something.

i /i will italicize
b /b will bold
u /u will underline

list /list will form a list format



So [q.uote][/q.uote]

Thanks, it helped a lot. I will edit my previous posts tomorrow.

[Kreid]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm surprised.

People are happy to refuse the advances and let one already traumatized soul free, rejoice in sticking it to TIM, and pat themselves on the back for putting to stop this experiment once and for all...

except that it isn't once and for all, since TIM pretty much says he's going to continue/restart the project, you didn't stop it and instead extended the suffering of the next subject by years, you let one subject go only to necessitate the introduction of another subject and therefore adding to the number of souls affected, and Cerberus and the Alliance will still end up getting the data in the end.

One would think a Paragon would want the fewest number of people to suffer for the shortest amount of time, not extend the abuse in time and number of people.

Or did I misunderstand the end?

Yeah, easy to say when you're not the one with a jack plugged to your brain and tubes the size of arms down your throat.
Advances on what? enslaving the Geth? which we already know can come to terms perfectly, also, TIM cannot restart anything because David was unique, plugging anyone on the machine won't make any progress, David on the other hand would've been living hell for all his life.
There are many questionable decisions in both ME1 and ME2, but letting David plugged is downright monstrous.

[T-35]

I took him to Grissom for several reasons:

1. Listening to the research logs and the VI videos it was clear to me the David was not able to make an informed choice about wheather or not to 'plug in'

2. Given that David was a victim of his brother's decisions there was no way I'd leave David with him.

3. The project as a whole seemed to be such a long shot. If the quarians couldn't handle the original (less evolved) geth, what makes us think humans could.?  TIMmy must not have read  Frankenstein

[The Elite Elite]

Neuzhelin wrote...
Okay I would like to clarify once again:

1) You stick with the gun/being being intimidated to, perhaps, lie. Pehaps, it was not clear but I called this: self preservation and AWARENESS of self preservation, the most basic drive.

as I wrote in the post above, which you did not quote or reply to:

"I just wanted to clarify on rachni as an ally:

If you assume the queen is driven by self preservation, is not likely that the same self  preservation will unite the rachni, as an organic, with the rest against the reapers? Is the rest not completely irrelevant then if the queen  acknowledges the need for self preservation? Surely it is contradictive?"

As I said earlier if you let her go she is going to need time to rebuild the Rachni before they can be a threat to anything, so I have two possibilites from what I can see with the given information at the time. Either they won't have enough time to build up to be any threat to the Reapers and so nothing really happened because they get killed along with the rest of life by the Reapers. Or if they do build up enough to be another force to fight the Reapers so too could they fight us before the Reapers get here. So again, I see no real advantage to letting her go.

2) I do not hold any naive believe of them as all loving peaceful society when it comes to history, but: history is written by winners: council. For once you hear the other side of the story and given an explanation: corruption. You can only safely assume one thing: rachi are intelligent (spacefaring and intelligent enough to fight Asari, Turian AND Salarian forces) and effective (same reason) and have unique abilities. Now you add the wish to survive. I have been combating circular logic for a while but I CANNOT spell it more clearly then I have.

Yes history is written by the winner, however that's the only history we have to go on. I have a hard time believing that you'll be told all this history and then suddenly you run into what you've been told is the bad guy and she tells you that no that was all wrong and you're just going to believe her. (Again I go back to this would get me to question killing her but because I'm not given the option to leave her for the council to decide)

No other civilization has created a mass relay (or understood the material). No other civilization understood the trap hidden in Citadel and no other civilization countered the signals sent by the Citadel. The results were the exact opposite then submission to the way that Reapers paved with their technologies. This is MY interpritation but based on the dialogue with Mordin and Legion (they have very specific lines when it comes to collectors/the heretic Gods that continue my thought.) that the Prothean way is the righteous (paragon) while the reaper (renegade) is the negative. In a way, I hope that there are clear consequences for such actions with a Saren like (renegade) destiny if the Reaper technology is embraces or a final victory if the natural (prothean like) path is taken (paragon).

Yes, no other civilization that we know of besides the Protheans has been able to understand so much of that, but that's still them learning more about Reaper tech. They were just able to advance further down the Reaper tech path than the Reapers had intended. As for the consequences for which path you choose at the end, I doubt Bioware will do that. Can you imagine how many people would cry and whine because they found out that their path was the "wrong" one? Afterall, in KOTOR or Jade Empire you don't have an ending where you lose if you become dark side or closed fist.

And it is fine if you ROLEPLAY a genocidal xenophobic human supremascist as I said earlier. I just got the impression that the logical solution with the best outcome based on the information presented and known was being discussed.

No, my Shep isn't a xenophobe human supremascist. She does not agree with Cerberus at all. But she tries to look at the big picture of defeating the Reapers. If that means helping terrorists like TIM, then that's what she'll do.

[The Elite Elite]

Creid-X wrote...

also, TIM cannot restart anything because David was unique, plugging anyone on the machine won't make any progress,

What, in a galaxy of trillions of humans you don't think TIM could've found someone else like David?

[Kaiser Shepard]

I was somewhat impressed by how this DLC ended: I never imagine a game being able to make me feel disgusted at something, but Overlord did. The same goes for what what I assume to be Han Loghain's (Simon Templeman's) character, Dr. Archer: the only flaw I could find is not being able to kill him.



It goes without saying that my main Shep let David go, although I did appreciate the Jesus allegory in the Renegade ending.

[Kreid]

[quote]The Elite Elite wrote...

[quote]Creid-X wrote...

also, TIM cannot restart anything because David was unique, plugging anyone on the machine won't make any progress,
[/quote]

What, in a galaxy of trillions of humans you don't think TIM could've found someone else like David?[/Quote]
An autistic individual whose unique upbringing with a genius brother has turned his brain into a computer?
I really doubt it.There are many specific and fortuitous elements that made David able to connect with the Geth network, even if there were other individuals with David's potential out there it is extremely unlike they would find themselves in a situation which enabled them to develop it.
[/quote]

Modifié par Creid-X, 17 juin 2010 - 02:50 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Creid-X wrote...

The Elite Elite wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

also, TIM cannot restart anything because David was unique, plugging anyone on the machine won't make any progress,

What, in a galaxy of trillions of humans you don't think TIM could've found someone else like David?

An autistic individual whose unique upbringing with a genius brother has turned his brain into a computer?
I really doubt it.There are many specific and fortuitous elements that made David able to connect with the Geth network, even if there were other individuals with David's potential out there it is extremely unlike they would find themselves in a situation which enabled them to develop it.

The key is that David was autistic. The rest can be recreated, according to TIM. ("Many years of research" line).

[Dean_the_Young]

Creid-X wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm surprised.

People are happy to refuse the advances and let one already traumatized soul free, rejoice in sticking it to TIM, and pat themselves on the back for putting to stop this experiment once and for all...

except that it isn't once and for all, since TIM pretty much says he's going to continue/restart the project, you didn't stop it and instead extended the suffering of the next subject by years, you let one subject go only to necessitate the introduction of another subject and therefore adding to the number of souls affected, and Cerberus and the Alliance will still end up getting the data in the end.

One would think a Paragon would want the fewest number of people to suffer for the shortest amount of time, not extend the abuse in time and number of people.

Or did I misunderstand the end?

Yeah, easy to say when you're not the one with a jack plugged to your brain and tubes the size of arms down your throat.

Indeed. But that distance does give perspective: it's why we have jury trials and judges, for example, who aren't involved with the crime in question.

With the knowledge of Cerberus, I couldn't pretend for a moment that the experiments would not be redone: Cerberus has always had the goal and the willingness to do so. Knowing that, limiting the suffering to as few people as possible is the best for the most people. No, it isn't fair to David, but fairness in this situation is illusorary.

Advances on what? enslaving the Geth? which we already know can come to terms perfectly, also,

Depending on what point in the game you are, no, you don't. Even after you take Legion, it is still a question of how quickly and how far you are willing to trust him absolutely.

TIM cannot restart anything because David was unique, plugging anyone on the machine won't make any progress, David on the other hand would've been living hell for all his life.

TIM disagrees with you. TIM certainly has a far better understanding of what Cerberus can and will do than you do. David was unique, but not irreplacable.

There are many questionable decisions in both ME1 and ME2, but letting David plugged is downright monstrous.

Certainly. What would be more monstrous, however, would be to knowingly make way for Cerberus to plug in others to the same torment for longer. I can not remove one man from the rack simply so that more can take his place. A belief that more must share in the suffering would be more monstrous.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 juin 2010 - 03:02 .

[DuffyMJ]

Creid-X wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm surprised.

People are happy to refuse the advances and let one already traumatized soul free, rejoice in sticking it to TIM, and pat themselves on the back for putting to stop this experiment once and for all...

except that it isn't once and for all, since TIM pretty much says he's going to continue/restart the project, you didn't stop it and instead extended the suffering of the next subject by years, you let one subject go only to necessitate the introduction of another subject and therefore adding to the number of souls affected, and Cerberus and the Alliance will still end up getting the data in the end.

One would think a Paragon would want the fewest number of people to suffer for the shortest amount of time, not extend the abuse in time and number of people.

Or did I misunderstand the end?

Yeah, easy to say when you're not the one with a jack plugged to your brain and tubes the size of arms down your throat.
Advances on what? enslaving the Geth? which we already know can come to terms perfectly, also, TIM cannot restart anything because David was unique, plugging anyone on the machine won't make any progress, David on the other hand would've been living hell for all his life.
There are many questionable decisions in both ME1 and ME2, but letting David plugged is downright monstrous.

It's always easier for people on the sidelines to say things like that, that's why we call war mongers "chicken hawks", they talk the big game, but would be the last to actually sacrifice themselves

[Kreid]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

The Elite Elite wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

also, TIM cannot restart anything because David was unique, plugging anyone on the machine won't make any progress,

What, in a galaxy of trillions of humans you don't think TIM could've found someone else like David?

An autistic individual whose unique upbringing with a genius brother has turned his brain into a computer?
I really doubt it.There are many specific and fortuitous elements that made David able to connect with the Geth network, even if there were other individuals with David's potential out there it is extremely unlike they would find themselves in a situation which enabled them to develop it.

The key is that David was autistic. The rest can be recreated, according to TIM. ("Many years of research" line).

There's no guarantee that every autistic individual can become a living computer, not every person is the same, and Archer senior clearly stated David was an exceptional individual many times.
Also, read the message again, TIM says that they will most likely never again find another individual with David's unique capabilities, also he doesn't say anything about restarting the project, but that the cancellation of the project has set back our chances of understanding the Geth for years, which is stupid considering Legion showed up.