390 réponses à ce sujet

[jkstexas2001]

Reminds me of X-men United - that general's son. The sad thing is, I have no doubt there are people who would do what they did to David to their own family members.

[Dean_the_Young]

Creid-X wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

The Elite Elite wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

also, TIM cannot restart anything because David was unique, plugging anyone on the machine won't make any progress,

What, in a galaxy of trillions of humans you don't think TIM could've found someone else like David?

An autistic individual whose unique upbringing with a genius brother has turned his brain into a computer?
I really doubt it.There are many specific and fortuitous elements that made David able to connect with the Geth network, even if there were other individuals with David's potential out there it is extremely unlike they would find themselves in a situation which enabled them to develop it.

The key is that David was autistic. The rest can be recreated, according to TIM. ("Many years of research" line).

There's no guarantee that every autistic individual can become a living computer, not every person is the same, and Archer senior clearly stated David was an exceptional individual many times.
Also, read the message again, TIM says that they will most likely never again find another individual with David's unique capabilities, also he doesn't say anything about restarting the project, but that the cancellation of the project has set back our chances of understanding the Geth for years, which is stupid considering Legion showed up.

Plenty of people are exceptional. Do you honestly believe that means unduplicatable? Do you honestly believe Cerberus won't put other people through the process to try and find out?

Since this project was Cerberus's deep level of understanding of the Geth, it's almost certain they won't let it die after they found demonstratable results. There are certainly types of understanding that Legion and the Geth will never willingly allow other races to have, let alone give to them.

[DuffyMJ]

Creid-X wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

The Elite Elite wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

also, TIM cannot restart anything because David was unique, plugging anyone on the machine won't make any progress,

What, in a galaxy of trillions of humans you don't think TIM could've found someone else like David?

An autistic individual whose unique upbringing with a genius brother has turned his brain into a computer?
I really doubt it.There are many specific and fortuitous elements that made David able to connect with the Geth network, even if there were other individuals with David's potential out there it is extremely unlike they would find themselves in a situation which enabled them to develop it.

The key is that David was autistic. The rest can be recreated, according to TIM. ("Many years of research" line).

There's no guarantee that every autistic individual can become a living computer, not every person is the same, and Archer senior clearly stated David was an exceptional individual many times.
Also, read the message again, TIM says that they will most likely never again find another individual with David's unique capabilities, also he doesn't say anything about restarting the project, but that the cancellation of the project has set back our chances of understanding the Geth for years, which is stupid considering Legion showed up.

They probably won't find another such individual because any other individual is probably at the Grissom school or in the hands of GOOD people who won't torture and experiment on the mentally impaired like some kind of ****/Imperial Japanese sociopaths. I can't believe there's even a "debate" about this decision, says a lot about how desensitized and morally capricious soft, spoiled, chickenhawks from western cultures have become.

[Dean_the_Young]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm surprised.

People are happy to refuse the advances and let one already traumatized soul free, rejoice in sticking it to TIM, and pat themselves on the back for putting to stop this experiment once and for all...

except that it isn't once and for all, since TIM pretty much says he's going to continue/restart the project, you didn't stop it and instead extended the suffering of the next subject by years, you let one subject go only to necessitate the introduction of another subject and therefore adding to the number of souls affected, and Cerberus and the Alliance will still end up getting the data in the end.

One would think a Paragon would want the fewest number of people to suffer for the shortest amount of time, not extend the abuse in time and number of people.

Or did I misunderstand the end?

Yeah, easy to say when you're not the one with a jack plugged to your brain and tubes the size of arms down your throat.
Advances on what? enslaving the Geth? which we already know can come to terms perfectly, also, TIM cannot restart anything because David was unique, plugging anyone on the machine won't make any progress, David on the other hand would've been living hell for all his life.
There are many questionable decisions in both ME1 and ME2, but letting David plugged is downright monstrous.

It's always easier for people on the sidelines to say things like that, that's why we call war mongers "chicken hawks", they talk the big game, but would be the last to actually sacrifice themselves

It's ironic how much of that sentence applies directly to this context. Indirect wording so as to put distance, aggressive language with no direct target.

If you want to call me a coward, call me a coward directly Duffy.

I'm hardly some relic who's going to challenge you to a duel for slighted honor or any sillyness like that. Instead, all I'll say is I recommend you read World War Z.

[Kreid]

]Indeed. But that distance does give perspective: it's why we have jury trials and judges, for example, who aren't involved with the crime in question.

With the knowledge of Cerberus, I couldn't pretend for a moment that the experiments would not be redone: Cerberus has always had the goal and the willingness to do so. Knowing that, limiting the suffering to as few people as possible is the best for the most people. No, it isn't fair to David, but fairness in this situation is illusorary.

So, we should just let him suffer hell for another 100 years thinking our "perspective" gives us some kind of condescending knowledge above right or wrong? it's a life of an innocent we're talking about here, not even his life because if he simply died, well, not that it's any good but we all die in the end however letting him suffer hell for another 100 years of his life because there's a possibility of the experiment being repeated is so unethical it isn't even funny.

Depending on what point in the game you are, no, you don't. Even after you take Legion, it is still a question of how quickly and how far you are willing to trust him absolutely.

Even before you meet Legion, giving Cerberus an army of Geth isn't a good idea.neither was an army of Thorian Creepers.Neither was an army of Rachni.period.

TIM disagrees with you. TIM certainly has a far better understanding of what Cerberus can and will do than you do. David was unique, but not irreplacable.

Actually he agrees with me, his message states clearly that they will possibly not be able to ever find again another individual with David's unique capabilities. 

Certainly. What would be more monstrous, however, would be to knowingly make way for Cerberus to plug in others to the same torment for longer. I can not remove one man from the rack simply so that more can take his place. A belief that more must share in the suffering would be more monstrous.

Well, everyone has it's own ideas, I certainly are not one to leave him in that situation because there exists a possibility of another taking his place in the long run, but I see where your reasoning comes from, I don't agree but I see your point.

Modifié par Creid-X, 17 juin 2010 - 03:22 .

[Dean_the_Young]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

The Elite Elite wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

also, TIM cannot restart anything because David was unique, plugging anyone on the machine won't make any progress,

What, in a galaxy of trillions of humans you don't think TIM could've found someone else like David?

An autistic individual whose unique upbringing with a genius brother has turned his brain into a computer?
I really doubt it.There are many specific and fortuitous elements that made David able to connect with the Geth network, even if there were other individuals with David's potential out there it is extremely unlike they would find themselves in a situation which enabled them to develop it.

The key is that David was autistic. The rest can be recreated, according to TIM. ("Many years of research" line).

There's no guarantee that every autistic individual can become a living computer, not every person is the same, and Archer senior clearly stated David was an exceptional individual many times.
Also, read the message again, TIM says that they will most likely never again find another individual with David's unique capabilities, also he doesn't say anything about restarting the project, but that the cancellation of the project has set back our chances of understanding the Geth for years, which is stupid considering Legion showed up.

They probably won't find another such individual because any other individual is probably at the Grissom school or in the hands of GOOD people who won't torture and experiment on the mentally impaired like some kind of ****/Imperial Japanese sociopaths. I can't believe there's even a "debate" about this decision, says a lot about how desensitized and morally capricious soft, spoiled, chickenhawks from western cultures have become.

There is no debate about that the situation is horrible. I make no argument of anything else: my concern is based on that.

The issue is that the paragon option will not end the cause of suffering, but only extend it to more people.

Can you honestly tell me that Cerberus will not try this again?
Can you honestly tell me that they will not keep trying this on more people, trying to remake lost ground?

If so, you're hopelessly optimistic about Cerberus.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Creid-X wrote...

[quote]]Indeed. But that distance does give perspective: it's why we have jury trials and judges, for example, who aren't involved with the crime in question.

With the knowledge of Cerberus, I couldn't pretend for a moment that the experiments would not be redone: Cerberus has always had the goal and the willingness to do so. Knowing that, limiting the suffering to as few people as possible is the best for the most people. No, it isn't fair to David, but fairness in this situation is illusorary.[/Quote]
So, we should just let him suffer hell for another 100 years thinking our "perspective" gives us some kind of condescending knowledge above right or wrong? it's a life of an innocent we're talking about here, not even his life because if he simply died, well, not that it's any good but we all die in the end however letting him suffer hell for another 100 years of his life because there's a possibility of the experiment being repeated is so unethical it isn't even funny.
[/quote]It's not just his innocent life we're talking about, which is the problem.

I can't believe I'm the one taking the position, but this is Cerberus. They don't stop at setbacks: they keep going until they find a yes or no answer to their question 'can it be done.' It's both a flaw and a strength, and they found that the answer to this question is 'yes.'

[quote]
[quote]Depending on what point in the game you are, no, you don't. Even after you take Legion, it is still a question of how quickly and how far you are willing to trust him absolutely.[quote]
Even before you meet Legion, giving Cerberus an army of Geth isn't a good idea.period.[/quote]It's certainly a better idea than having an army of Geth fight the Council and Alliance.


[quote]Actually he agrees with me, his message states clearly that they will possibly not be able to ever find again another individual with David's unique capabilities. [/quote]I'll admit I phrased that wrong, and I thank you for your clearing up that. What I meant is that he intends to try, not that he will succede. They might not succede without David, but I can't see them stopping. Can you?

[quote]
Well, everyone has it's own ideas, I certainly are not one to leave him in that situation because there exists a possibility of another taking his place in the long run, but I see where your reasoning comes from, I don't agree but I see your point.[/quote]Not a chickenhawk afterall, am I?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 juin 2010 - 03:28 .

[Kreid]

Plenty of people are exceptional. Do you honestly believe that means unduplicatable? Do you honestly believe Cerberus won't put other people through the process to try and find out?

Since this project was Cerberus's deep level of understanding of the Geth, it's almost certain they won't let it die after they found demonstratable results. There are certainly types of understanding that Legion and the Geth will never willingly allow other races to have, let alone give to them.

I do not argue that there are many exceptional people, and I don't doubt Cerberus will keep trying to get this to work but David's situation is hardly replicable, and they won't plug anyone in until they become a living computer like he was which is, in all certainty very complicated as the number of variables as of why David turned as how he is are so many it isn't even funny ranging from his own upbringing to genetic potential, not to forget they will probably be more tame after almost causing a potential technological apocalypse.

Modifié par Creid-X, 17 juin 2010 - 03:32 .

[JamieCOTC]

I freed David. Would have handed Archer over to the Alliance as a Cerberus agent and planted a "big f*cking bomb" in the middle of the facility if I could have.

[Dean_the_Young]

Creid-X wrote...
I do not argue that there are many exceptional people, and I don't doubt Cerberus will keep trying to get this to work but David's situation is hardly replicable, and they won't plug anyone in until they become a living computer like he was which is, in all certainty very complicated as the number of variables as of why David turned as how he is are so many it isn't even funny ranging from his own upbringing to genetic potential, not to forget they will probably be more tame after almost causing a potential technological apocalypse.

Why not? Why won't they try? Masters of subtlety Cerberus experiments are hardly known for: forget Thresher Maw blood experiments, the Subject Zero team killed a whole group of kids with identical experiments before deciding one such process was too dangerous for Jack.

I really don't buy your assurance they won't. They sound more like confimation pleading: things that would convince you because you want to be convinced tragedy  won't be repeated.

How many kids will they go through while they try to turn more people into living computers? How many batches of children from slavers will they buy to practice if gene therapy will produce what they want?


My gues is many more than one.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 juin 2010 - 03:43 .

[Kreid]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's not just his innocent life we're talking about, which is the problem.

I can't believe I'm the one taking the position, but this is Cerberus. They don't stop at setbacks: they keep going until they find a yes or no answer to their question 'can it be done.' It's both a flaw and a strength, and they found that the answer to this question is 'yes.'

Yes, and exactly because they won't stop is why you have to make a difference and show them why they are wrong, of course, Shepard can't be in every and all of Cerberus' experiments to take them down but simply going away and letting David in such a deplorable situation because there exist the possibility of the experiment repeating itself makes you as guilty as Cerberus itself.
What if they cannot replicate it? is it ethical then letting David suffer hell for 100 years acceptable? he didn't even make a conscious choice of sacrificing himself, and then he rejected his situation.
I am not stupid, i know sacrifices have to be made, some have to suffer so everyone else can be safe but this reasoning cannot blind us of the fact that David's life is as valuable as any other, we must always try to put ourselves in his position before judging what's right and wrong.

It's certainly a better idea than having an army of Geth fight the Council and Alliance.

Really? I'm not sure if alien races would agree with you, TIM is ruthless and can very well make more damage than the Geth themselves to other races in order to assure human dominance.

I'll admit I phrased that wrong, and I thank you for your clearing up that. What I meant is that he intends to try, not that he will succede. They might not succede without David, but I can't see them stopping. Can you?

Nope.

Not a chickenhawk afterall, am I?

I never said you were.

[Dean_the_Young]

Creid-X wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's not just his innocent life we're talking about, which is the problem.

I can't believe I'm the one taking the position, but this is Cerberus. They don't stop at setbacks: they keep going until they find a yes or no answer to their question 'can it be done.' It's both a flaw and a strength, and they found that the answer to this question is 'yes.'

Yes, and exactly because they won't stop is why you have to make a difference and show them why they are wrong, of course, Shepard can't be in every and all of Cerberus' experiments to take them down but simply going away and letting David in such a deplorable situation because there exist the possibility of the experiment repeating itself makes you as guilty as Cerberus itself.

Cerberus isn't an organization to be targetted by a morality campaign: most of these people have long since made peace with their actions, just as Shepard never has doubts about killing so many people in his way. They aren't going to change their ways thanks to a good deed.

Not all possibilities are equal: some are unlikely (the possibility to win the lottery), while some are  near certainties (the possibility of having a car mishap).

I suppose if you think that the project is highly unlikely to repeat itself and involve many more people, you could justify it. But for me, the evaluation is 'near certainty'.

It does not make you as guilty as Cerberus. Motive AND action come together, or else your mear association and partnership would damn you. (Or perhaps Ash/Kaiden were right?)

What if they cannot replicate it? is it ethical then letting David suffer hell for 100 years acceptable? he didn't even make a conscious choice of sacrificing himself, and then he rejected his situation.

Whether they can replicate it or not is irrelevant to whether
they will try, which is the tragedy. The ethical delimma is not 'is it ethical', but rather 'is it less unethical'. Either is bad, but the question is which is worse. That's why I mentioned World War Z earlier: it's a story of a zombie apocolypse, and there were a lot of unethical choices that had to be made for more people to survive.

Is it less unethical to let David suffer hell for 100 years, or to free him and have the various number of attempted substitutes suffer it in his stead? Success of the project is irrelevant to the human cost. DuffyMJ claims that it should be beyond debate, but I won't.

I am not stupid, i know sacrifices have to be made, some have to suffer so everyone else can be safe but this reasoning cannot blind us of the fact that David's life is as valuable as any other, we must always try to put ourselves in his position before judging what's right and wrong.

I never doubted it. I rely on an assumption of innate equal value. But tell me: is David's life as valuable as two lives? Three? How many lives will Cerberus go through that held as much innate valude as David's?

It's certainly a better idea than having an army of Geth fight the Council and Alliance.

Really? I'm not sure if alien races would agree with you, TIM is ruthless and can very well make more damage than the Geth themselves to other races in order to assure human dominance.

The Geth were out for organic extinction, far more serious than a Cerberus campaign for human dominance. The war puttered out, but it was hardly a total defeat for the Geth: the heretics, yes, (a distinction no one else would know at this point), but neither the Alliance or the Council made any attempt to take on the known heart of Geth space, the Quarian homeworld. What we know of as the Heretics were a fraction of the Geth.

Not a chickenhawk afterall, am I?

I never said you were.

Yeah, more of a sling at the other guy. Shouldn't have included you in it, so I apologize.


Edit: Late here, so I gotta go. Good exchanging points civily with you, however.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 juin 2010 - 04:05 .

[Kreid]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Cerberus isn't an organization to be targetted by a morality campaign: most of these people have long since made peace with their actions, just as Shepard never has doubts about killing so many people in his way. They aren't going to change their ways thanks to a good deed.

I am not saying you (as Shepard) should start a campaign of good deeds to make Cerberus see the "light" although I'm aware my last post might have given this impression, I'm just saying that as an individual I refuse to fall down into their moral ground, and leaving David in that situation in my mind at least makes the player pretty much their accomplice.
As a Paragon choice I see freeing David as giving priority to the certainty of doing the right thing in situ versus the uncertainty of whether this good deed will cause more misery to other people people in the future, and I agree with it based on the context of the situation, that's why I as the player am not willing to compromise my ideals in favor of potential (even though extremely likely) actions on Cerberus' part.

It does not make you as guilty as Cerberus. Motive AND action come together, or else your mear association and partnership would damn you. (Or perhaps Ash/Kaiden were right?)

In a sense, if I considered myself a part of Cerberus, which I don't.
My partnership with Cerberus, which involves a different goal that the VI experiment experiment was pretty much forced by the current events of the game, so I won't feel guilty by simple affiliation with the organization itself, however making the conscious decision of leaving David plugged does make me accomplice of the monsters that decided to plug him in in the first place.

 they will try, which is the tragedy. The ethical delimma is not 'is it ethical', but rather 'is it less unethical'. Either is bad, but the question is which is worse. That's why I mentioned World War Z earlier: it's a story of a zombie apocolypse, and there were a lot of unethical choices that had to be made for more people to survive.

Is it less unethical to let David suffer hell for 100 years, or to free him and have the various number of attempted substitutes suffer it in his stead?

Well, we must look at the context of the situation, everything is contextual and we certainly cannot devalue David's life just because he's a single individual.
We know that:
-Cerberus will most likely keep experimenting (by experience)
-David was unique and TIM himself said they will most likely won't find a replacement
-David didn't seem to suffer any kind of torture prior being plugged into the VI

Based on this evidence I cannot say they won't succeed in plugging another person in, but it is evidence enough for me that the possibilities are pretty much minimal, and David doesn't deserve such punishment in front of those odds.
Now, if there was evidence that the experiments were as severe and life consuming as the one in the Praggia facility, i'd provably agree with you.

I never doubted it. I rely on an assumption of innate equal value. But tell me: is David's life as valuable as two lives? Three? How many lives will Cerberus go through that held as much innate valude as David's?

Yet again, can we devalue David's life because he's a single individual? who can decide that?

The Geth were out for organic extinction, far more serious than a Cerberus campaign for human dominance. The war puttered out, but it was hardly a total defeat for the Geth: the heretics, yes, (a distinction no one else would know at this point), but neither the Alliance or the Council made any attempt to take on the known heart of Geth space, the Quarian homeworld. What we know of as the Heretics were a fraction of the Geth.

Yeah, you are right, but we cannot discard the facts because they are unknown at a X period of time, we know we can reason with them through Legion and that there are factions etc...of course it depends on variables of the game but then again the facts are fact independently of the players decisions, once know the Geth aren't as much a threat as they were first assumed to be, there's virtually no reason to think it'd be a good reason for TIM to control them.

Yeah, more of a sling at the other guy. Shouldn't have included you in it, so I apologize.

No problem, I simply told you because I thought you thought I had called you that.

[axl99]

Just saw the renegade ending on youtube. Still didn't change the fact Shepard was disgusted by Archer's actions towards David.



If there is a slight silver lining to Project Overlord, the details behind the experiment can lend credence for the Citadel council on the notion that Saren wasn't the real person pulling the strings in ME1.



We've seen David communicate with geth in limited capacity, not once did we see him extert any influence over them as a human. Being autistic, he doesn't really have much will of his own. Archer already has problems communicating with his brother, so forget Archer being able to retain control over geth by proxy.



The Quarians have already made it clear that complex commands require more geth to link with each other. The geth used in the experiment simply wanted to escape, the incomplete VI expressed their need to survive. This whole mess happened because David's mind was unable to process interfacing with the sheer multitudes of geth programs in a network and got swept up in the crowd.



Completing Legion's loyalty mission by overwriting the geth would nearly render Project Overlord obsolete. All that's left would be to ally with the true geth, since they don't govern themselves the way humans do.



On the other hand, if TIM does make his own reaper that he can control, that would be a different story altogether.

[Arijharn]

Neuzhelin wrote...

I just wanted to clarify on rachni as an ally:

If you assume the queen is driven by self preservation, is not likely that the same self preservation will unite the rachni, as an organic, with the rest against the reapers? Is the rest not completely irrelevant then if the queen acknowledges the need for self preservation? Surely it is contradictive?

Considering you argue that speculation is somewhat of a bad thing, you must realise the hypocrisy of your statement.

Usually when I play ME, I might be guilty of metagaming paragon decisions, but amazingly enough I didn't with this one, and I quickly decided to save the Rachni Queen. I don't however think it's 'cut and dried' and I don't think it makes you 'morally bankrupt' to automatically decide killing her is a bad thing.

Consider;
If I am a psychopath, and I just killed your friends. After I am caught are you truly just going to give me the benefit of a doubt if I said: "The Devil made me do it" as you weigh the option to flip the switch and send 10k volts through my electric chair?

I see nothing wrong with the justification that you can't necessarily trust the queen at her word because mainly you have no idea of what her word is worth. People can be capable liars, why can't a queen be as well?

[Arijharn]

axl99 wrote...
On the other hand, if TIM does make his own reaper that he can control, that would be a different story altogether.

That's just silly, you seriously think TIM is going to abduct entire human settlements, hell, the mass abduction of Earth to make a Reaper? That's what the Collector's were planning.

[axl99]

I'm just basing that off the premise of the third ME novel Retribution.

[Lord Coake]

Let him go, really wished I could gun down Archer like the animal he is. Hell, I practically went in with that mindset.



As it's a Cerberus project, therefore, we know that...

1: It will be vile

2. It will be completely amoral, serve no purpose other than sopping to TIM's ego, and be completely evil to the core.

3. An indeterminate number of innocent people will be suffering because of it.

5. There will be little return on the project, and is likely being done for ****s and grins by the staff.

6. Will be operating under TIM's total BS line of "Judge us not by our methods, but by what we seekto accomplish."



Therefore, because off this known information, the project will be violently shut down -with fire- all those involved with running, funding, studying, profiting, and protecting it will by hunted down like dogs and killed to the last man, and finally, TIM himself will be tracked down, beaten into submission, and forcefully altered to be in Davids, position, then locked in dark room hooked up to life support machines for the rest of his misbegotten life to rot and be forgotten.

[GothamLord]

Lord Coake wrote...

TIM himself will be tracked down, beaten into submission, and forcefully altered to be in Davids, position, then locked in dark room hooked up to life support machines for the rest of his misbegotten life to rot and be forgotten.

Welcome to becoming the very monster you seek to destroy.  

[Massadonious1]

If Cerberus tries again, they know they will fail. It was already stated that there was no one like David, and any one else they try from there is doomed to failure, or worse.

It's one thing when you're blind firing, like "studying" the effects of Thresher Maw acid. It's another thing to throw bodies on a project that you know wont work without a specific type of person. Even Cerberus backers can't be that naieve.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 17 juin 2010 - 08:25 .

[Wildecker]

Arijharn wrote...

axl99 wrote...
On the other hand, if TIM does make his own reaper that he can control, that would be a different story altogether.

That's just silly, you seriously think TIM is going to abduct entire human settlements, hell, the mass abduction of Earth to make a Reaper? That's what the Collector's were planning.

That's just an opinion voiced by a boarding team that was overwhelmed by the spacious interior of the Collector ship. Earth is a well-protected world with fleets around to make short work of anyone dropping in to collect.

However, with inside connections like The Illusive Man you actually could promote a colonization effort, recruiting tens of thousands of volunteers, and then reroute them to your base for processing ... all the time blaming those fiendish Batarian slavers.

[ThisIsMadness91]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm surprised.

People are happy to refuse the advances and let one already traumatized soul free, rejoice in sticking it to TIM, and pat themselves on the back for putting to stop this experiment once and for all...

except that it isn't once and for all, since TIM pretty much says he's going to continue/restart the project, you didn't stop it and instead extended the suffering of the next subject by years, you let one subject go only to necessitate the introduction of another subject and therefore adding to the number of souls affected, and Cerberus and the Alliance will still end up getting the data in the end.

One would think a Paragon would want the fewest number of people to suffer for the shortest amount of time, not extend the abuse in time and number of people.

Or did I misunderstand the end?

Maybe it's just me, but when I read the e-mail the Illusive Man sent me after I freed David, it didn't sound like he was planning on doing the same thing to anyone else. Sure, he'd look for people who could communicate with the geth, but not make them go through the hell that David was forced to.

[Neuzhelin]

As I said earlier if you let her go she is going to need time to
rebuild the Rachni before they can be a threat to anything, so I have
two possibilites from what I can see with the given information at the
time. Either they won't have enough time to build up to be any threat to
the Reapers and so nothing really happened because they get killed
along with the rest of life by the Reapers. Or if they do build up
enough to be another force to fight the Reapers so too could they fight
us before the Reapers get here. So again, I see no real advantage to
letting her go.

Selective thinking again, as you pointed out they can build up an insignificant force (only to be wiped out if they suddenly go beserk?) or unite and work together towards survival of the organic life? One of the possibilities is impossible exactly because of their history the analysis of the conversation and unlitately oganic life as a whole vs. machines. The advantage is in having the Rachni prove themselves , the disadvantage is simply not there because the reapers are comming NOW.

No there is one episode that is questionable and that should be judged critically. And yes, finding an intelligent rachni is first hand experience the only other creatures doing it were the Krogan that destroyed the Quuens asap. I am not ignoring anything, I have a decision based on the wish to survive along with other only logical options and judging from the consequences all I did was absolutely right, as I finished ME before I had ME2. Again, you keep going in a circle not presenting or refuting a single argument, forcing me to repeat myself. Reapers, at least, were creating the human reaper in a way preserving, which shows that they actually preserve life in a wicket, not yet understandable way, you destroy a sentient lifeform and, unlike them, you have no real excuse besides speculation based on questionable data which is in the end IRRELEVANT simply because th contradicting self preservation responce you are giving. 

Either they won't have enough time to build up to be any threat to
the Reapers and so nothing really happened because they get killed
along with the rest of life by the Reapers. Or if they do build up
enough to be another force to fight the Reapers so too could they fight
us before the Reapers get here

Again, contradictive. You talk of their self preservation and all of the sudden AFTER pledging aligience (ME1) after finding out that they acknowledge their past mistakes and are ready to fight the Reapers (ME2) you STILL stick with the story just to stick with it? It seems that you see what you want to, while RPG in the "ignorant in the moment, blinding trusting one sided info of the council" character, as you ignore every single contradictive ellement.

I have a hard time believing that you'll be told all this history and
then suddenly you run into what you've been told is the bad guy and she
tells you that no that was all wrong and you're just going to believe
her. (Again I go back to this would get me to question killing her but
because I'm not given the option to leave her for the council to decide)

So you chose to have the blood on her hands SELECTIVLY being critical on the minor issues ignoring the major ones because of your insecurities? If there is any organisation I find hard to reply on in ME it is the council and I am very sceptical of them, therefore relying on my own judgements.

Yes, no other civilization that we know of besides the Protheans has
been able to understand so much of that, but that's still them learning
more about Reaper tech. They were just able to advance further down the
Reaper tech path than the Reapers had intended. As for the consequences
for which path you choose at the end, I doubt Bioware will do that. Can
you imagine how many people would cry and whine because they found out
that their path was the "wrong" one? Afterall, in KOTOR or Jade Empire
you don't have an ending where you lose if you become dark side or
closed fist.

Irrelevant. Just because one civilization can build roads (say reapers) and the other one later is able to do it too (protheans), you can't call it Reaper tech. They had their own scientists DEVELOPING to CREATE not DEVELOPING to USE as every one else and here lies the major plot difference.
Who said anything about losing? You just end up being as Saren if you act as Saren, which seems logical to me based on your way of playing, thinking of winning at any cost, even when it means losing the grand strategy. Sadly, you could very well be right, as Bioware limits itself to a few extra dialogues on the major decisions (rachni; Feros  did you kill the mind controlled people, btw - situation is similar to the rachni; Wrex; council) and a few messages on the regular ones. I really hope they, however, chose to make the major decisions count in the end.

No, my Shep isn't a xenophobe human supremascist. She does not agree
with Cerberus at all. But she tries to look at the big picture of
defeating the Reapers. If that means helping terrorists like TIM, then
that's what she'll do.

However, I get the opposite impression, as you work towards the humanity wiping out other races and providing every single advantage to the leader that although claims not to be a " xenophobe human supremascist" is judging by his action is the definition of it (TIM). We can only judge by the actions not the "noble" ideas when the result is the opposite.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 17 juin 2010 - 10:24 .

[Neuzhelin]

Consider;
If I am a psychopath, and I just killed your friends. After I am caught are you truly just going to give me the benefit of a doubt if I said: "The Devil made me do it" as you weigh the option to flip the switch and send 10k volts through my electric chair?

I see nothing wrong with the justification that you can't necessarily trust the queen at her word because mainly you have no idea of what her word is worth. People can be capable liars, why can't a queen be as well?

Irrelevant, as the rachni seperated from the Queen (intelligent) go berserk (unintelligent), also shown in the Cerberus facilities later. The Queen, in fact, says they are beyond salvation and encourages you to wipe them out. I'm not giving benefit on the doubt, I make the decision based on the possible outcomes and weighting the risks and the gains and trust matters very little in this case.