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[Rhys Cordelle]

I've heard it said that Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands, but he does still ally with Howe, knowing full well what he did. Is there some sort of justification for this in the game? I haven't recruited Loghain so I don't know if he gets a chance to explain himself.

If you ask to speak with him in Ostagar he acknowledges what Howe did to the Couslands.

[Xandurpein]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

I've heard it said that Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands, but he does still ally with Howe, knowing full well what he did. Is there some sort of justification for this in the game? I haven't recruited Loghain so I don't know if he gets a chance to explain himself.

If you ask to speak with him in Ostagar he acknowledges what Howe did to the Couslands.

After Cailan's death Loghain declares himself Regent and tries to force the Landsmeet to acknowledge him. The Landsmeet refuses and this turns it into a civil war. At this point Loghain can't afford to be picky as he needs all allies he can get, unless he is willing to step down, which he isn't.

It's really an example how Loghain's actions isn't so much an evil master plan, as a slippery slope of gradual fall. He is too stubborn to quit, so instead he gradually retorts to more and more desperate, and morally corrupt, measures to prop up his wobbly reign.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 16 juin 2010 - 06:16 .

[Swoo]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

I've heard it said that Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands, but he does still ally with Howe, knowing full well what he did. Is there some sort of justification for this in the game? I haven't recruited Loghain so I don't know if he gets a chance to explain himself.

If you ask to speak with him in Ostagar he acknowledges what Howe did to the Couslands.

Gaider said that he had no idea Howe was moving against the Couslands. He probably had knowledge of it from the same conversation he had with Calian where he mentions meeting the PC to Loghain.

Now to my thought: Loghain had no choice. Arl Eamon was not siding with him anytime soon, hence the assassination attempt. The Bannorn basically told him to F Off when Loghain told them to shape up. The nobility seems very much into the royalist mindset as a whole, as Loghain mentions in camp that no matter how high he or Anora ruled, they were still 'blood of farmers and cabinetmakers'. Without Howe's support he probably would not have had the manpower or overall support to stave off any sort of deposing attempt on Anora's rule or his own regency.

I see the alliance with Howe as being the same as the Teventir's. The moment the Civil War and Blight had been taken care of and he could solidify power, Howe would have been tossed under the very first bus...unless Howe managed to do it to Loghain first.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

As a human noble, it's really unfortunate you can't ask Loghain if he was involved with the deaths of the Couslands. The game itself never gives an explanation (even if Gaider did). I think you can question Loghain about Ostagar if you recruit him, but not much else.

[Xandurpein]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

As a human noble, it's really unfortunate you can't ask Loghain if he was involved with the deaths of the Couslands. The game itself never gives an explanation (even if Gaider did). I think you can question Loghain about Ostagar if you recruit him, but not much else.

I agree. There should be a way for a Cousland to question Loghain about the Cousland massacre, when he is in his/her party. I miss that too.

[Shacary]

I read both the books, and I didnt really see a lot of love between Loghain and Maric to be honest. HE was totally indifferent to ANora, and it was Maric who stopped there and arranged for ANora to be brought to the castle and raised beside Cailan.

If Loghain was indeed the strategist they say he was... well, that means he would have been privvy to the cousland assasination, since, as it was already noted they were directly under the King, and next in line of succession if the king died heirless ... and he did, and the fact that Eamon was poisoned [ planned and hatched] well before ostagar really confirms to me, that Loghain had designs on assuming the regency to start with.

There can be suppositions [ but the element of a letter askign Cailan to set aside a wife who was reaching [ in those days REALLY old age} and non chil bearing ability, in favor of a younger wife more fertile, may have sparked the whole start of the plan for cailans death/ Eamon and Teryn Couslands death, to maintain what the MAc tiers { spelling?} Believe is best for " their land" their own designs and forget the cost to humanity or even to Fereldom. O in my mind he is totally culpable and cannot be acquited based on his wish to do " what HE feels is right".

The fact that he left troops to look for surviving wardens in Lothering and other places smacks of genecide { warden wise} and also fear of any survivers revealing his evil plans/deeds. He also had to have already set Uldred into a position to " not light the fires" in the tower to siding with him in ostager, and perhaps to even set the tower of magi in such discord even the mages would be withdrawn from the equation of his seizing the throne.

I left him live once, and took him along nad asked him every question i could, and he did not have satisfactory answers as far as i am concerned. I am sure to serial killers, insane dictators etc they have complete and satisfactory logic for why they commited their atrocities... It just doesnt wash out the blood stains....

[Forst1999]

Howe: "I thought Loghain made it clear that your pathetic family is gone and forgotten!" I can't say under which circumstances this quote falls, but doesn't it show some kind of involvement of Loghain in the Cousland attack?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

He says it when you confront him in the Arl of Denerim's estate.



Personally I think Howe's just had a lot of practise at spouting manipulative crap. He also says your brother is dead.

[phaonica]

Since Loghain poisoned Arl Eamon to remove him from the picture, I don't see why he would choose to kill the Couslands instead of poisoning Teyrn Bryce, too. I think that the massacre was probably Howe's idea, and there is really no way for the player to know if Loghain knew about it beforehand or not.



Since Gaider has said that Loghain didn't know about the massacre (and I doubt that if Loghain had sent Howe to "take care of" the Couslands, that he could be said to have "not known" about it), I wonder if Loghain had planned *any* moves against the Couslands.

[Forst1999]

@ Shadow of Light Dragon

Yeah, he might just be a manipulative bastard. But at this point of the story it's quite safe to assume that Fergus is dead.

@ phaonica

Okay, Gaider's words count, so the massacre probably wasn't Loghain's idea. But the massacre would have been better than to poison Bryce like Eamon. Two leading nobleman suffering the same illness? That would be suspicious. And Bryce had two adult children and a very resolute wife, so they too would have to get out of the picture to crush the possible leaders of a noble opposition against his regency. Maybe Loghain told Howe just to do anything against it. And we know Howe, his methods are extreme, to say at least.

[Xandurpein]

phaonica wrote...

Since Loghain poisoned Arl Eamon to remove him from the picture, I don't see why he would choose to kill the Couslands instead of poisoning Teyrn Bryce, too. I think that the massacre was probably Howe's idea, and there is really no way for the player to know if Loghain knew about it beforehand or not.

Since Gaider has said that Loghain didn't know about the massacre (and I doubt that if Loghain had sent Howe to "take care of" the Couslands, that he could be said to have "not known" about it), I wonder if Loghain had planned *any* moves against the Couslands.

We know that Loghain had been planning some form of coup against Cailan.
According toi D Gaider Loghain was a meticulous planner and didn't want to move until all the pieces where in place and the game was already won when he struck. Loghain didn't plan to betray Cailan at Ostagar, but when the signal was lit, his knowledge that his anger at Cailan, probably arped his perception and he told himself that the battle was lost. So even if Ostagar accomplished what he had intended anyway, it was probably done in a far messier way than he had planned.

We really don't know if Loghain would have felt the need to do anything against Bryce Cousland. We know that Eamon is a die hard Therin loyalist to the point of trying to get Maric's untried illegitimate som acknowledged as heir. This is why Loghain  poisons him. There is no real evidence how Bryce would react, at least not if Loghain had managed to set all his plans in motion the way he had planned, rather than being forced by events at Ostagar.

That is at least my idea of what happened.

[nos_astra]

Xandurpein wrote...
We know that Loghain had been planning some form of coup against Cailan.
According toi D Gaider Loghain was a meticulous planner and didn't want to move until all the pieces where in place and the game was already won when he struck. Loghain didn't plan to betray Cailan at Ostagar, but when the signal was lit, his knowledge that his anger at Cailan, probably arped his perception and he told himself that the battle was lost. So even if Ostagar accomplished what he had intended anyway, it was probably done in a far messier way than he had planned.

We really don't know if Loghain would have felt the need to do anything against Bryce Cousland. We know that Eamon is a die hard Therin loyalist to the point of trying to get Maric's untried illegitimate som acknowledged as heir. This is why Loghain  poisons him. There is no real evidence how Bryce would react, at least not if Loghain had managed to set all his plans in motion the way he had planned, rather than being forced by events at Ostagar.

That is at least my idea of what happened.

Nicely put.

I had a hard time to accept Gaider's information but eventually this is what I concluded, too. I still don't know why Howe would massacre a noble family of influence and renown without worrying about being hanged, but I handwave this and tell myself he was simply being stupid (if someone has a better explanation?).

I still think originally Ostagar was intended to be a plain betrayal by the authors that's why we don't have a good explanation for Howe's actions at Highever. I appreciate that they tried to remedy this in order to make everything less obvious and more grey.

Modifié par klarabella, 16 juin 2010 - 10:47 .

[Costin_Razvan]

My belief is that Bryce isn't a royalist, but rather that he tried to take the throne once Maric died. He failed, as Loghain, allied with Eamon and many others, would have a far greater claim but still Bryce did indeed try I think.

He does order Howe to be respectful of the king in game, as he doesn't want his child to get the wrong idea about how to treat the ruler of the nation, however that does not imply he is a royalist.

I think that Loghain had wanted to get Bryce on his side rather then kill him, for if he had he would have a strong popular supporter ( as opposed to Howe ). It would have things much easier.

 (if someone has a better explanation?).

If Howe had killed every Cousland and everyone in the Castle ( which he damned near did ), then he could have told the King anything he wanted and there would have been little Cailan could have done.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 juin 2010 - 10:57 .

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
If Howe had killed every Cousland and everyone in the Castle ( which he damned near did ), then he could have told the King anything he wanted and there would have been little Cailan could have done.

Why would anyone believe Howe? What story could he tell to ecuse the massacre?

[Forst1999]

klarabella wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
If Howe had killed every Cousland and everyone in the Castle ( which he damned near did ), then he could have told the King anything he wanted and there would have been little Cailan could have done.

Why would anyone believe Howe? What story could he tell to ecuse the massacre?

Ehm...the castle was build upon an old elven cemetary?

[Costin_Razvan]

Why would anyone believe Howe? What story could he tell to ecuse the massacre?

It is not so much the matter of belief as it is regarding the lack of proof, should Howe had killed everyone. You cannot just convict a man because you think he has done something unless you have solid proof, more so for a high nobleman such as Howe.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

klarabella wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
If Howe had killed every Cousland and everyone in the Castle ( which he damned near did ), then he could have told the King anything he wanted and there would have been little Cailan could have done.

Why would anyone believe Howe? What story could he tell to ecuse the massacre?

Yeah, the best explanation I can come up with is a mysterious darkspawn attack that Howe 'heroically' defeats with his late army, only not in a timely-enough fashion to save the Couslands or ANY of their people. I suppose he could try to intimidate survivors (or residents beyond the castle walls) into testifying he liberated Highever rather than attacked them? But it still seems like too much chance to rely on. At the worst, Howe could have the commander of his army take the fall. Banking on his reputation as Bryce's most trusted friend, maybe.

But seriously, the guy's men attacked in uniform with Howe shields on display. No subterfuge even attempted, which struck me as either stupid or incredibly arrogant on Howe's behalf (I suspect he wanted the Couslands to know they were being curb-stomped by him). Unless he knew he'd have someone powerful to protect him or he had some ace up his sleeve we don't know about, I don't understand how he expected to get away without a hanging--much less with the title of Teyrn.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 16 juin 2010 - 12:22 .

[Forst1999]

klarabella wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
If Howe had killed every Cousland and everyone in the Castle ( which he damned near did ), then he could have told the King anything he wanted and there would have been little Cailan could have done.

Why would anyone believe Howe? What story could he tell to ecuse the massacre?

Howe was not the most popular man in Ferelden, but he was a war hero. As Bryce trusted him, we can assume noone would have suspected Howe to do something like this. We know him only as the complete villian as which he is portraied in the game, but the people of Ferelden didn't think of him as a homicidal maniac at this point. If his story wasn't to bad, they maybe would believe him. He must have thought of himself as a great storyteller.

Modifié par Forst1999, 16 juin 2010 - 12:26 .

[Carmen_Willow]

Xandurpein wrote...

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

I've heard it said that Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands, but he does still ally with Howe, knowing full well what he did. Is there some sort of justification for this in the game? I haven't recruited Loghain so I don't know if he gets a chance to explain himself.

If you ask to speak with him in Ostagar he acknowledges what Howe did to the Couslands.

After Cailan's death Loghain declares himself Regent and tries to force the Landsmeet to acknowledge him. The Landsmeet refuses and this turns it into a civil war. At this point Loghain can't afford to be picky as he needs all allies he can get, unless he is willing to step down, which he isn't.

It's really an example how Loghain's actions isn't so much an evil master plan, as a slippery slope of gradual fall. He is too stubborn to quit, so instead he gradually retorts to more and more desperate, and morally corrupt, measures to prop up his wobbly reign.

Shades of MacBeth.

[Asdara]

I don't know if I would say a war 'hero'... he was IN the war and brought his family back to the Ferelden side of things once he saw which way the wind was blowing.



I'd say he was going to pull the traitor card. That seems the most popular thing to do after the death of a whole noble family - to say they were killed for plotting against the crown themselves. It's easy to phony up after the fact and there is no protest from the dead.

[Xandurpein]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Shades of MacBeth.

Indeed. There is a lot of Macbeth in Loghain. Including the fact that he, through his own actions, fulfills the prophecy he was trying desperatly avoid.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 16 juin 2010 - 12:37 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't know if I would say a war 'hero'... he was IN the war and brought his family back to the Ferelden side of things once he saw which way the wind was blowing.

No offence, but the story you hear in the Cousland Castle is garbage.



What really happened in the rebellion is that Howe's Uncle joined the rebels long BEFORE the Couslands did. In fact that Uncle was killed by the Couslands.



The ones who changed their allegiances once the wind was blowing were the Couslands.

Why would anyone believe Howe? What story could he tell to ecuse the massacre?

It is not so much the matter of belief as it is regarding the lack of proof, should Howe had killed everyone. You cannot just convict a man because you think he has done something unless you have solid proof, more so for a high nobleman such as Howe.



Even with the PCs and Duncan's testimony it would have been hard to convict Howe if he had a fair trial. Cailan's words that Howe will hang are beyond foolish. The first time I heard him say them I actually chuckled. "I like to see you to do and remain on the throne, your majesty." would have a been a very fitting line.



You cannot execute a nobleman without sparking much outrage. If Howe had been executed without a trial then you can be it would have sparked an immense scandal that might have actually cost Cailan his throne.



In the case of an actual trial then the only evidence would be the PC's and Duncan's testimony, which would matter for little at a Landmseet. The PC cannot be considered impartial in such a matter as his/her family has recently died, and Duncan could not be considered impartial, as he is supporting a fellow warden.



Certainly the fact Howe is not popular would have played a role, but it wouldn't be enough to condemn him.

[Xandurpein]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In the case of an actual trial then the only evidence would be the PC's and Duncan's testimony, which would matter for little at a Landmseet. The PC cannot be considered impartial in such a matter as his/her family has recently died, and Duncan could not be considered impartial, as he is supporting a fellow warden.

Certainly the fact Howe is not popular would have played a role, but it wouldn't be enough to condemn him.

I don't agree with you here really. The sworn testimony from the PC and Duncan as primary witnesses would count for a lot. And what ever Howe manges to concoct would probably not stand up to real scrutiny anyway. Now if Fergus, who wasn't even there when it happened, was the only survivor, then it's a completely different story.

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't agree with you here really. The sworn testimony from the PC and Duncan as primary witnesses would count for a lot. And what ever Howe manges to concoct would probably not stand up to real scrutiny anyway. Now if Fergus, who wasn't even there when it happened, was the only survivor, then it's a completely different story.

Arguable. While their side of the story would count for a lot in a court today, where the judges are impartial, it would certainly not be the same in a Medieval Court where the judges are nobles, ( who are rarely ever impartial ).

It is also important to remember that many nobles in Fereldan dislike Grey Wardens. In fact Cailan is the only one who actually supports them, as Duncan himself states.So Duncan's testimony would matter for a lot less then it should.

Still, at the end of the day the wind might be more favorable in the Cousland's side, provided Howe is as disliked by that many nobles as he is by Bryland for example.

However, Loghain would not have been able to convict Howe, no matter how much he wanted. ( Unless he wanted to alienate the nobles that do stand with him ), because Duncan is dead the and PC is also supposedly as well.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 juin 2010 - 12:58 .