74 réponses à ce sujet

[Asdara]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I don't know if I would say a war 'hero'... he was IN the war and brought his family back to the Ferelden side of things once he saw which way the wind was blowing.

No offence, but the story you hear in the Cousland Castle is garbage.

What really happened in the rebellion is that Howe's Uncle joined the rebels long BEFORE the Couslands did. In fact that Uncle was killed by the Couslands.

The ones who changed their allegiances once the wind was blowing were the Couslands.

Source?  I believe you - I haven't read beyond the game, I'm just curious.

[Costin_Razvan]

In the Stolen Throne Howe's Uncle allows the rebel army to settle in Amaranthine, and when the rebels are about to leave he joins them personally along with his men.



Later on, at Harper's Ford I think, the Arl and all his men are killed by the Couslands.

[maxernst]

The codex makes it pretty clear what the relative reputations of Howe & Bryce Cousland were. I'm guessing that Loghain's heresay account from the PC and Duncan would be enough to convict him. And Loghain knows the PC and Alistair are alive after Lothering---when you arrive in Denerim your description has already been given to the guards. Am I the only one who suspects that the real reason Loghain is so intent on blaming the Wardens for Ostagar and hunting them down is to get rid of Alistair?

Also, keep in mind the killings are not in question.  It's Howe who has to produce evidence of the Cousland's treachery.  

Modifié par maxernst, 16 juin 2010 - 01:22 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I'm guessing that Loghain's heresay account from the PC and Duncan would be enough to convict him.

Not really no. A first hand testimony? maybe after a long trial.

And Loghain knows the PC and Alistair are alive after Lothering---when you arrive in Denerim your description has already been given to the guards.

He had a suspicion, confirmed if you allow the soldiers in Lothering to report to him, but from when you wake at Flemeth's hut it takes a few weeks to reach Lothering, let alone Denerim.

Am I the only one who suspects that the real reason Loghain is so intent on blaming the Wardens for Ostagar and hunting them down is to get rid of Alistair?

I think that he viewed the Wardens as Orlesian infiltrators, and that is hardly a fault when you consider the events of the Calling where Maric almost died thanks to the Orlesians.

Also, keep in mind the killings are not in question.  It's Howe who has to produce evidence of the Cousland's treachery.  

 Howe is resourceful bastard, he would have come up with something to present in his defense.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 juin 2010 - 01:28 .

[Arttis]

Since cailan caters to the greywardens i assume he would overvalue duncans words.
Along with the PC i imagine it would be more then enough.
The new teyrn of highevers word along with the greywarden commanders.Also the kings full support.
Could go a very long way.
In the end you could always have a duel*unless im totally misunderstanding how they do things in ferelden*
Also the codex on howe when you first meet him says that he is disliked among his peers too.*or something like that*

Modifié par Arttis, 16 juin 2010 - 01:33 .

[Xandurpein]

Arttis wrote...

Since cailan caters to the greywardens i assume he would overvalue duncans words.
Along with the PC i imagine it would be more then enough.
The new teyrn of highevers word along with the greywarden commanders.Also the kings full support.
Could go a very long way.
In the end you could always have a duel*unless im totally misunderstanding how they do things in ferelden*
Also the codex on howe when you first meet him says that he is disliked among his peers too.*or something like that*

True. If Cailan was alive and it was Duncan's word against Howe, I believe Howe would have had his head chopped off in a heart beat.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 16 juin 2010 - 01:40 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I do not doubt that Cailan would have done exactly that, as much as it is political unsound to do so.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 juin 2010 - 01:50 .

[Asdara]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In the Stolen Throne Howe's Uncle allows the rebel army to settle in Amaranthine, and when the rebels are about to leave he joins them personally along with his men.

Later on, at Harper's Ford I think, the Arl and all his men are killed by the Couslands.

Thanks.

Yes, I've also wondered how much of the history we learn is accurate / skewed - if it is the difference between 'known' history and 'real' history - as we all know history is always a very selective version of events passed down until it is accepted as the only version of events in too many cases.

[Arttis]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I do not doubt that Cailan would have done exactly that, as much as it is political unsound to do so.

I hear anora handled the politics.

[Costin_Razvan]

Not even Anora would be able to soother the outraged nobles, well not fully at least.

[Arttis]

Hand out howes land and wealth then i think everyone would be quite fine.

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I do not doubt that Cailan would have done exactly that, as much as it is political unsound to do so.

The question is not what would be sound or unsound. I wanted to know why Howe assumed he could slaughter one of the oldest and most influential noble families and get away with it.

What kind of story would be believable? Eleanor, Oriana and Oren died there. Mother Mallol. Ser Gilmore (who was the son of a Bann!). And you think he can wipe out Castle Cousland right after Fergus left with the army for Ostagar and claim they were traitors, which enabled him to kill them all, without a trial. And no one would be able to tell that it were Howe's men who conveniently got delayed?

Modifié par klarabella, 16 juin 2010 - 02:14 .

[jpdipity]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In the Stolen Throne Howe's Uncle allows the rebel army to settle in Amaranthine, and when the rebels are about to leave he joins them personally along with his men.

Later on, at Harper's Ford I think, the Arl and all his men are killed by the Couslands.

The person named Arl Byron is never stated to be a Howe in the Stolen Throne.  I assume that he is a Howe because he is the Arl of Amaranthine, but I have not seen anything that confirms that he is the uncle of Rendon Howe - do you have a source?  I've been trying to hunt down and confirm that relationship for the longest!  Arl Bryron was not killed by the Couslands - he was killed by chevaliers per Katriel.

Rendon Howe's father sided with Orlais and fought against Maric.  Rendorn Howe then joined the rebellion after his father's death - seems more that he seized an opportunity and not that he joined for his belief in the cause.
Harper's Ford had nothing to do with Arl Bryron.  Arl Terleton Howe (Rendorn's father) was killed by the Couslands during Maric's rebellion at Harper's Ford.  I don't know if Harper's Ford was before or after Arl Byron joined.  Rendon Howe was declared Arl of Amaranthine after Maric regained the throne. 

Modifié par jpdipity, 16 juin 2010 - 02:19 .

[Costin_Razvan]

And no one would be able to tell that it were Howe's men who conveniently got delayed?

He would be there to report such a thing? Everyone who knew would be dead in Cousland Castle.

What kind of story would be believable? Eleanor, Oriana and Oren died there. Mother Mallol. Ser Gilmore (who was the son of a Bann!). And you think he can wipe out Castle Cousland right after Fergus left with the army for Ostagar and claim they were traitors, which enabled him to kill them all, without a trial.

He could just as easily declare that a large band of bandits and assassins attacked the castle and burned it while also killing everyone in it. He could add that he was meeting his men when this occurred and that they arrived to late to save anyone.

It is not the best explanation, far from it in fact, but it is one for you.

 The person named Arl Byron is never stated to be a Howe in the Stolen Throne.  I assume that he is a Howe because he is the Arl of Amaranthine, but I have not seen anything that confirms that he is the uncle of Rendon Howe - do you have a source?  I've been trying to hunt down and confirm that relationship for the longest!  Arl Bryron was not killed by the Couslands - he was killed by chevaliers per Katriel.

It makes no bloody sense for him to be anything BUT a Howe, since the Howe's have ruled Amaranthine for a very long time.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 juin 2010 - 02:22 .

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And no one would be able to tell that it were Howe's men who conveniently got delayed?

He would be there to report such a thing? Everyone who knew would be dead in Cousland Castle.

Fergus would know and I'm sure moving a little army across Ferelden doesn't go unnoticed, an army that is near Highever instead of Ostagar.

[jpdipity]

Per Gaider here on the forums:
http://social.biowar...index/583297/17
"There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. "

[jpdipity]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And no one would be able to tell that it were Howe's men who conveniently got delayed?

He would be there to report such a thing? Everyone who knew would be dead in Cousland Castle.

What kind of story would be believable? Eleanor, Oriana and Oren died there. Mother Mallol. Ser Gilmore (who was the son of a Bann!). And you think he can wipe out Castle Cousland right after Fergus left with the army for Ostagar and claim they were traitors, which enabled him to kill them all, without a trial.

He could just as easily declare that a large band of bandits and assassins attacked the castle and burned it while also killing everyone in it. He could add that he was meeting his men when this occurred and that they arrived to late to save anyone.

It is not the best explanation, far from it in fact, but it is one for you.

 The person named Arl Byron is never stated to be a Howe in the Stolen Throne.  I assume that he is a Howe because he is the Arl of Amaranthine, but I have not seen anything that confirms that he is the uncle of Rendon Howe - do you have a source?  I've been trying to hunt down and confirm that relationship for the longest!  Arl Bryron was not killed by the Couslands - he was killed by chevaliers per Katriel.

It makes no bloody sense for him to be anything BUT a Howe, since the Howe's have ruled Amaranthine for a very long time.

As I stated "I assume he is a Howe" - that makes sense.  I was questioning where you noted that he was an uncle.  Regardless, Arl Rendon Howe's father sided against the rebellion - not with it.  Rendon Howe conveniently joined after the rebellion forces hanged his father.  He was then awarded handsomely by being named the Arl of Amaranthine despite Byron who had children who likely could have assumed that role.

[jpdipity]

stupid double posts...

Modifié par jpdipity, 16 juin 2010 - 02:42 .

[Xandurpein]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I do not doubt that Cailan would have done exactly that, as much as it is political unsound to do so.

I don't know if it's all that unsound. If Awakening is any indication, you can get away with quite harsh treatment of your subjects, even if they are noblemen. As Arl of Amaranthine you can decide to execute "the Ox" without any real evidence and there isn't much of a reprcussion from it. I think a King can sentence Arl Howe on what is actually better evidence then in that case, especially as the Teyrn Cousland is a very respected man.

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't know if it's all that unsound. If Awakening is any indication, you can get away with quite harsh treatment of your subjects, even if they are noblemen. As Arl of Amaranthine you can decide to execute "the Ox" without any real evidence and there isn't much of a reprcussion from it. I think a King can sentence Arl Howe on what is actually better evidence then in that case, especially as the Teyrn Cousland is a very respected man.

There is a repercussion if you do decide to execute the Ox, in that Bann Esmerelle will have two nobles fighting along side her instead of the Ox ( should do you nothing about the conspiracy ).



So while the Ox was a very minor noble his death did have an effect. While the evidence against Howe would have been better it IS important to remember that Howe is a very high nobleman in Fereldan.

[Costin_Razvan]

As I repeat myself. It would have been very political unsound to do that. Sure Cailan would have done it, just as he would have married Celene and expected his fellow nobles to not start a civil war, cause he doesn't think of the consequences.

[phaonica]

Howe probably has all kinds of nasty connections and noble supporters. His "Revealing Couslands to be Traitors to the King" story could be something he devised well before his alliance with Loghain, and he saw the battle as an opportunity to strike, while the Highever defenses were going to be weak. Once he killed everyone in the castle (assuming no survivors) he would track down Fergus and make sure he "died in the field". Howe immediately travels to Denerim and reveals the Couslands to be traitors, and presents whatever forged evidence to the nobles and to the seneschals. A hastened investigation takes place, but all remaining"credible" witnesses confirm Howe's story. Everything is now in place and just needs a final stamp from the King. If there were no Cousland survivors, and Howe's story was checking out, why would Cailan have any reason to further question? And with his glorious war occuring, could he have been counted on to launch any better of an investigation?



This plan assumes both that Loghain did not know about the massacre, and that Cailan was expected to return to Denerim.



Even if Cailan did find out about the Cousland massacre from a surviving Cousland, everything that Howe did would have looked completely legal. There would have to be an actual investigation. If Cailan were to execute a noble with claims legitimized by the seneschal, he runs the risk of compromising the people's trust that he will protect their own legal holdings.

[Swoo]

My belief is that Bryce isn't a royalist, but rather that he tried to
take the throne once Maric died. He failed, as Loghain, allied with
Eamon and many others, would have a far greater claim but still Bryce
did indeed try I think.

It's a good postulation, but incorrect based on what we got in the game. He never tried to claim the throne, and they make a point of bringing that up in game that he had strong support and could have made seriously legit run at being crowned King instead of Calian five years ago, but passed it up.

That's just the Black and White version. He either:

a) Was truly a believer in one of his last lines, 'Couslands always do their duty', so trying to 'jump' succession was a move he would never contemplate. Instead serving dutifully and faithfully to his nations bloodline - which Fereldens, especially veteran families of the rebellion seem to put a lot of stock into. Normally with the Shade of Grey they pump with Dragon Age I'd be inclined to call BS on this, but they really do paint Highever as a sort of Arthurian Legend and many of it's bloodline as 'true' heroes...since they know they are going to smash it down, put it to the torch, and walk away from it half an hour later.

He seriously considered making a run at the throne but never actually did so because of your points. He might have had a strong backing, and a good enough pedigree to make a run at the crown, but he would have had to risk fighting against the Arl's of Redcliffe and Amaranthine, some of the Bannorn, the only other Teryn in the land... it might not have been such a 'lock' so he gracefully bowed out after realizing it would lead to Civil War, or had a high chance of failure.

[jpdipity]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As I repeat myself. It would have been very political unsound to do that. Sure Cailan would have done it, just as he would have married Celene and expected his fellow nobles to not start a civil war, cause he doesn't think of the consequences.

There's no evidence that Cailan was planning on marrying Celine except in Loghain's already twisted little mind.  Had the game developers excluded Eamon's note, no one would be jumping to this conclusion based on the "familar" tone in the letter.  Celine started her rule while Cailan was young (between the 2 books which means 5-12 yrs old - don't have my notes here).  Either way, she is quite his senior and marrying her would likely not produce the heir that Eamon pleads for in his letter since she is even older than Anora.  The two letters are two entirely different issues and we have no evidence to suggest otherwise. 

Just because Loghain says/thinks it - does not mean that it is true.  He is suspicious by nature (as shown in the books) and clearly old age has turned his suspicions into near paranoia, but this is not a Loghain thread...