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[Rhys Cordelle]

phaonica wrote...

Since Loghain poisoned Arl Eamon to remove him from the picture, I don't see why he would choose to kill the Couslands instead of poisoning Teyrn Bryce, too. I think that the massacre was probably Howe's idea, and there is really no way for the player to know if Loghain knew about it beforehand or not.

Since Gaider has said that Loghain didn't know about the massacre (and I doubt that if Loghain had sent Howe to "take care of" the Couslands, that he could be said to have "not known" about it), I wonder if Loghain had planned *any* moves against the Couslands.

So then why did Howe massacre the Couslands? If he did not already have an alliance with Loghain, and a plan in place to leave the king for dead (Loghain drew up the plans that conveniently placed him and his men out of the initial battle), then surely he must have known that Loghain would have his back. Like Cailan says "How does he think he can get away with this?"

Perhaps Loghain didn't know of the plan to massacre the Couslands, but I find it hard to imagine he didn't arrange with Howe to do away the Teyrn, and left the details up to Howe.

[phaonica]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

So then why did Howe massacre the Couslands? If he did not already have an alliance with Loghain, and a plan in place to leave the king for dead (Loghain drew up the plans that conveniently placed him and his men out of the initial battle), then surely he must have known that Loghain would have his back. Like Cailan says "How does he think he can get away with this?"

Perhaps Loghain didn't know of the plan to massacre the Couslands, but I find it hard to imagine he didn't arrange with Howe to do away the Teyrn, and left the details up to Howe.

Perhaps he could have gotten away with it, if the Cousland/Duncan hadn't survived to tell Cailan about it. When suddenly reports started coming in that the Couslands had been massacred, and Cailan was all WTF, Howe could have told him any story, and he could have had the "evidence", and noble support, and "witnesses" to back himself up.

[Asdara]

phaonica wrote...

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

So then why did Howe massacre the Couslands? If he did not already have an alliance with Loghain, and a plan in place to leave the king for dead (Loghain drew up the plans that conveniently placed him and his men out of the initial battle), then surely he must have known that Loghain would have his back. Like Cailan says "How does he think he can get away with this?"

Perhaps Loghain didn't know of the plan to massacre the Couslands, but I find it hard to imagine he didn't arrange with Howe to do away the Teyrn, and left the details up to Howe.

Perhaps he could have gotten away with it, if the Cousland/Duncan hadn't survived to tell Cailan about it. When suddenly reports started coming in that the Couslands had been massacred, and Cailan was all WTF, Howe could have told him any story, and he could have had the "evidence", and noble support, and "witnesses" to back himself up.

Yes.  This is what's usually the plan with an "everyone must die" approach which was clearly Howe's method.  Down to the Chantry priests and the cook he killed everyone to eliminate witnesses who could counter whatever made up story he intended to put into play.

I've played the Noble a few times and it's always Howe's blood I want - not really Loghain's for this.  I want his blood for other reasons usually - because betrayal becomes a personal thing once someone murders your whole house in cold blood and the battlefield doesn't make it any better for a deeply scarred person like that - but did Loghain know or give the order... I doubt it.  There's no real basis to suspect that Bryce Cousland wouldn't have believed the Hero of Riverdane's story about what happened to Cailan - they fought together after all.  Even Eamon is reluctant to believe Bann Teagan that he's gone power mad when you wake him up at first and needs extra assurances before going into the anti-Loghain stance if you listen to the conversation closely.  I think Loghain only poisoned Eamon because of Alistair.

[phaonica]

Asdara wrote...

Yes.  This is what's usually the plan with an "everyone must die" approach which was clearly Howe's method.  Down to the Chantry priests and the cook he killed everyone to eliminate witnesses who could counter whatever made up story he intended to put into play.

He might have even had some kind of plan in place to deal with survivors. Something along the lines of: of *course* you would claim that you aren't traitors, but the "evidence" that we've gathered is stacked against you.

[Forst1999]

I doubt that Howe could have simply said "The Couslands were traitors! Here's the evidence!" to get away with this. He is an Arl, okay this is high nobility, but he is moving on his own against a Teyrn, the creme-de-la-creme of Ferelden's nobility. Without doing so much as to inform the king, queen or other noblemen. Conveniently the whole castle resisted arrest, even the children and priests. This matter would be looked into. I honestly don't believe that he could produce any false evidence to stand against an investigation. And claiming someone else attacked the castle and he rescued them to late wouldn't work either. There is not only castle Highever, but also a settlement around it, i assume. He can't intimidate the whole city to claim "Yar, there were bandits/darkspawn/whatever!". He must have calculated with some kind of support from Loghain, even if Loghain didn't order or even knew about the massacre. Some kind of alliance between the two must have existed even before the betrayal of Ostagar.

Or he is just arrogant, stupid and power-hungry, which isn't completly out of question. He moved without any plan how to explain this afterwards, just hoping that Ostagar would shatter the political circumstances in Ferelden, which it did. After this Loghain needed support, and Howe jumped on the oppurtunity to get back up from the new regent.

[RebelAgainstSin81]

I haven't played the Origin part for the human noble in a while, but wasn't mentioned in the very beginning of it of some type of personal affront/issue between the Couslands and the Howes.



I've also read The Stolen Throne as well, and it specifically states Arl Bryon and his army were massacred by chevaliers of Orlais.

[maxernst]

@Forst1999

I'm with you on that. It's true that it was not uncommon for nobles to take advantage of political turmoil to rebel against their lieges...but prior to Ostagar, my sense is that most people aren't overly worried about the Blight. Howe, on the other hand, seems to be acting as if the country is already in civil war--which makes you wonder what he knew.



Given how many lies Loghain tells in the game (about the Wardens, about the Couslands, about the poisoning of Eammon), I find it remarkable how many people are willing to believe every word he says about his motives. Even Anora doesn't seem to believe him about the retreat from Ostagar, why should we?

[Xandurpein]

maxernst wrote...

@Forst1999
I'm with you on that. It's true that it was not uncommon for nobles to take advantage of political turmoil to rebel against their lieges...but prior to Ostagar, my sense is that most people aren't overly worried about the Blight. Howe, on the other hand, seems to be acting as if the country is already in civil war--which makes you wonder what he knew.

Given how many lies Loghain tells in the game (about the Wardens, about the Couslands, about the poisoning of Eammon), I find it remarkable how many people are willing to believe every word he says about his motives. Even Anora doesn't seem to believe him about the retreat from Ostagar, why should we?

We may belive or disbelive him, but we should belive the word of David Gaider who is the lead writer of the game. He has explained that Loghain did plan some form of coup against Cailan, but he did not actually plan to desert at Ostagar. Loghain made his mind up at the moment the signal was lit.

David Gaider has been purposefully vague about whether the battle was indeed lost as Loghain said, or if Loghain, knowing he was going to act against Cailan managed to convince himself it was lost even if it wasn't true. Loghain believes it was lost, but he it's not certain if his perception is warped when he says so. 

Loghain was planning to betray Cailan, but he did not plan to do it in a way that killed the royal army and the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 17 juin 2010 - 02:37 .

[maxernst]

I'm too postmodern for David Gaider's opinions to sway me.

[Xandurpein]

maxernst wrote...

I'm too postmodern for David Gaider's opinions to sway me.

Then I really don't see how we can have much more to say to each other on this subject.

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

We may belive or disbelive him, but we should belive the word of David Gaider who is the lead writer of the game. He has explained that Loghain did plan some form of coup against Cailan, but he did not actually plan to desert at Ostagar. Loghain made his mind up at the moment the signal was lit.

I've read Gaider's comments and took them to mean Loghain did not make the final decision to abandon Cailan until he saw the beacon, but he had pondered it already.  It's not like it was completely spontaneous.

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

We may belive or disbelive him, but we should belive the word of David Gaider who is the lead writer of the game. He has explained that Loghain did plan some form of coup against Cailan, but he did not actually plan to desert at Ostagar. Loghain made his mind up at the moment the signal was lit.

I've read Gaider's comments and took them to mean Loghain did not make the final decision to abandon Cailan until he saw the beacon, but he had pondered it already.  It's not like it was completely spontaneous.

That is a good qualifier. The thought may have crossed his mind earlier. In fact it must have, I suppose. The point I tried to make is that he didn't plan the retreat at Ostagar when he started his other machinations, such as poisoning Arl Eamon. To do so would have been incredibly sloppy anyway as it would have depended on factors he had no way of knowing when he started, such as the size of the darkspawn horde. And he actually does believe the battle was lost, when he sounded the retreat, but this is not the same as saying he is right.

Nor does it really absolve him of his guilt if he convinces himself, against better judgement, that the battle is lost. Although we may simply never know if it was so or not.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 17 juin 2010 - 03:07 .

[Forst1999]

Xandurpein wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...



We may belive or disbelive him, but we should belive the word of David Gaider who is the lead writer of the game. He has explained that Loghain did plan some form of coup against Cailan, but he did not actually plan to desert at Ostagar. Loghain made his mind up at the moment the signal was lit.

I've read Gaider's comments and took them to mean Loghain did not make the final decision to abandon Cailan until he saw the beacon, but he had pondered it already. It's not like it was completely spontaneous.

That is a good qualifier. The thought may have crossed his mind earlier. In fact it must have, I suppose. The point I tried to make is that he didn't plan the retreat at Ostagar when he started his other machinations, such as poisoning Arl Eamon. To do so would have been incredibly sloppy anyway as it would have depended on factors he had no way of knowing when he started, such as the size of the darkspawn horde. And he actually does believe the battle was lost, when he sounded the retreat, but this is not the same as saying he is right.



Nor does it really absolve him of his guilt if he convinces himself, against better judgement, that the battle is lost. Although we may simply never know if it was so or not.

I fully agree. Loghain even tried to convince Cailan not to fight in the battle, so it's sure that Cailan's death at Ostagar wasn't his plan all along. But some kind of coup was planned, the poisoning of Eamon makes that clear as Xandurpein pointed out. Only Howe's role remains unclear.

[Xandurpein]

Forst1999 wrote...

I fully agree. Loghain even tried to convince Cailan not to fight in the battle, so it's sure that Cailan's death at Ostagar wasn't his plan all along. But some kind of coup was planned, the poisoning of Eamon makes that clear as Xandurpein pointed out. Only Howe's role remains unclear.

As I see it, either Howe plans his actions indepedently from Loghain or Howe is smart enough to figure out that Loghain is up to something and grabs the chance to pull off his own scam too.

[Cobwebmaster]

Interesting discussion. My thought is pretty similar to ones already expressed on here. Firstly we know that Howe has an axe to grind against the Couslands anyway over the occupation of that strategic bridge two generations prior to the PC in the war against Orlais when Howe initially refused to ally with Maric. Hence his appointment as vassal to the Cousland Teyrns. Secondly if we are to believe that Loghain was the master strategist then we have to accept that in the knowledge that Cailan had already struck some sort of deal with Orlais with regard to Grey Warden support that Loghain had planned to eliminate the existing Greywardens in the battle at Ostagar and did try to save Cailan from (his view) his own folly. With the Grey Wardens out of the picture and Loghain in possession of the Archdemon's blood and the ritual notes he was in a position to create his own version of the Grey Wardens and eliminate the Archdemon himself. As Cailan insisted (and Loghain couldn't dissuade him in the planning meeting) that he join the battle alongside Duncan Loghain would have likely simply shrugged his shoulders mentally and regarded Cailan as another unfortunate casualty. So with Cailan dead based on Cailan's decision he was forced to take the Regency to avoid any complications in the form of opposition from Aemon. The Couslands were atttacked before the battle and Howe while maybe premature was unlikely to have acted on his own as without support from someone in a position of greater influence and power than himself he would have quickly foundered. Don't forget that the heir apparent to the Cousland teyranny had taken the field with the vast bulk of the Cousland forces and represented a serious threat. Without summary justice being delivered against Howe there would have been a civil war anyway. Howe planned for the Cousland forces to be absent when he struck. How on earth was he going to be able to take care of that problem without help? Howe wasn't present at Ostagar but he was present at Denerim to ensure he snaffled that rich plum as well by locking up the surviving heir to the Arlship. I agree that Loghain would have seen Howe as a means to an end. As has already beens mentioned Howe if succesful in his enterprise could have made up any story he liked and Cailan would have had no choice but to accept his word for it



As I see it Loghain and Howe had two seperate agendas but a common purpose to consolidate and develop their own positions. So they allied with Howe as the junior partner for the time being discerning Howe's persona.They had a sort of symbiotic relationship with Loghain holding most of the cards and Howe working as the leg man. Howe got sloppy in his execution of his part of the greater plan (Cousland certainly was a contender for Royalty status) which coupled with I think Cailan's unplanned death forced Loghain to act quickly before all his ducks were in a row. It would be failry easy for Loghain with Howe exposed as a traitor to his feudal Lord (maybe he even had evidence) to properly react with horror and have Howe executed on the spot. He could then appoint his own loyal vassals to relevant positions



So with Loghain determined to shut out perceived Orlais intrusion and Howe with his exposed naked ambition the plan should have worked or was a good one anyway except for Howe cocking things up and being premature it would have worked

[phaonica]

Xandurpein wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

I fully agree. Loghain even tried to convince Cailan not to fight in the battle, so it's sure that Cailan's death at Ostagar wasn't his plan all along. But some kind of coup was planned, the poisoning of Eamon makes that clear as Xandurpein pointed out. Only Howe's role remains unclear.

As I see it, either Howe plans his actions indepedently from Loghain or Howe is smart enough to figure out that Loghain is up to something and grabs the chance to pull off his own scam too.

This is pretty much what I think, really, that Howe and Loghain had an alliance that was probably put together sometime around when Loghain decided he needed to poison Eamon. Perhaps Howe figured that no matter what he did to the Couslands, Loghain would be practically forced to support Howe in order to maintain their alliance.

[Forst1999]

Cobwebmaster wrote...

With the Grey Wardens out of the picture and Loghain in possession of the Archdemon's blood and the ritual notes he was in a position to create his own version of the Grey Wardens and eliminate the Archdemon himself.

Did he even know about the necessarity of the Grey Wardens to kill the Archdemon? I hadn't him with me yet in the conversation with Riordan. I thought he stole the Archdemons blood solely to stop the wardens from recruiting. Or just to annoy them.

[Xandurpein]

Forst1999 wrote...

Cobwebmaster wrote...

With the Grey Wardens out of the picture and Loghain in possession of the Archdemon's blood and the ritual notes he was in a position to create his own version of the Grey Wardens and eliminate the Archdemon himself.

Did he even know about the necessarity of the Grey Wardens to kill the Archdemon? I hadn't him with me yet in the conversation with Riordan. I thought he stole the Archdemons blood solely to stop the wardens from recruiting. Or just to annoy them.

Loghain says he doesn't know that a Grey Warden is needed to kill an Archdemon, when Riordan asks you after the Landsmeet. I really don't see any reason for him to lie about it then.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 17 juin 2010 - 04:00 .

[Asdara]

Cobwebmaster wrote...

Interesting discussion. My thought is pretty similar to ones already expressed on here. Firstly we know that Howe has an axe to grind against the Couslands anyway over the occupation of that strategic bridge two generations prior to the PC in the war against Orlais when Howe initially refused to ally with Maric. Hence his appointment as vassal to the Cousland Teyrns. Secondly if we are to believe that Loghain was the master strategist then we have to accept that in the knowledge that Cailan had already struck some sort of deal with Orlais with regard to Grey Warden support that Loghain had planned to eliminate the existing Greywardens in the battle at Ostagar and did try to save Cailan from (his view) his own folly. With the Grey Wardens out of the picture and Loghain in possession of the Archdemon's blood and the ritual notes he was in a position to create his own version of the Grey Wardens and eliminate the Archdemon himself. As Cailan insisted (and Loghain couldn't dissuade him in the planning meeting) that he join the battle alongside Duncan Loghain would have likely simply shrugged his shoulders mentally and regarded Cailan as another unfortunate casualty. So with Cailan dead based on Cailan's decision he was forced to take the Regency to avoid any complications in the form of opposition from Aemon. The Couslands were atttacked before the battle and Howe while maybe premature was unlikely to have acted on his own as without support from someone in a position of greater influence and power than himself he would have quickly foundered. Don't forget that the heir apparent to the Cousland teyranny had taken the field with the vast bulk of the Cousland forces and represented a serious threat. Without summary justice being delivered against Howe there would have been a civil war anyway. Howe planned for the Cousland forces to be absent when he struck. How on earth was he going to be able to take care of that problem without help? Howe wasn't present at Ostagar but he was present at Denerim to ensure he snaffled that rich plum as well by locking up the surviving heir to the Arlship. I agree that Loghain would have seen Howe as a means to an end. As has already beens mentioned Howe if succesful in his enterprise could have made up any story he liked and Cailan would have had no choice but to accept his word for it

As I see it Loghain and Howe had two seperate agendas but a common purpose to consolidate and develop their own positions. So they allied with Howe as the junior partner for the time being discerning Howe's persona.They had a sort of symbiotic relationship with Loghain holding most of the cards and Howe working as the leg man. Howe got sloppy in his execution of his part of the greater plan (Cousland certainly was a contender for Royalty status) which coupled with I think Cailan's unplanned death forced Loghain to act quickly before all his ducks were in a row. It would be failry easy for Loghain with Howe exposed as a traitor to his feudal Lord (maybe he even had evidence) to properly react with horror and have Howe executed on the spot. He could then appoint his own loyal vassals to relevant positions

So with Loghain determined to shut out perceived Orlais intrusion and Howe with his exposed naked ambition the plan should have worked or was a good one anyway except for Howe cocking things up and being premature it would have worked

Bit of a problem with the idea of Loghain re-making the Wardens in his image: he doesn't have the notes, not until Riordan is captured after Ostagar has already happened (he goes there to investigate - wasn't in the battle himself) after the Wardens are turned back at the border - which is Loghain's edict post-Calian's death.  So even if he had already, for whatever reason, gotten the archdemon blood there's a lot more involved in it and he wouldn't know how to make that happen.  Also, Riordan seems to feel that the encryption of the notes is pretty solid - and we find them at Howe's place not being studied by Loghain's scholars.  

I think you hit the Howe-Loghain relationship pretty dead center here.  If one hand didn't know what the other was doing at all times - that sometimes is the case - it wouldn't have mattered so long as it ultimately served the shared goal of consolidating the power and ending the Civil War as quickly as possible.  

[maxernst]

My biggest difficulty with the whole Loghain didn't decide to betray Callan until the last minute is a completely subjective one. I came into Ostagar totally unspoiled and when I talked to Loghain's guard, I thought, well, this Callan guy seems way overconfident, Loghain's got a point. But then we had the pre-battle chat and it seemed to me so obvious that Loghain planned to betray the king. He might as well have put a sign on saying "Hi! I'm the villain" and given a Vincent Price cackle. My PC walked out of that meeting convinced that Loghain had some other plan and wondering why on earth Duncan (he had already dismissed Callan as an idiot) trusted him.

[Cobwebmaster]

[quote]Xandurpein wrote...

Did he even know about the necessarity of the Grey Wardens to kill the Archdemon? I hadn't him with me yet in the conversation with Riordan. I thought he stole the Archdemons blood solely to stop the wardens from recruiting. Or just to annoy them.[/quote]

Loghain says he doesn't know that a Grey Warden is needed to kill an Archdemon, when Riordan asks you after the Landsmeet. I really don't see any reason for him to lie about it then.[/quote]


He states in the Landsmeet that the Grey Wardens aren't needed to deal with the Blight. How can he say that with any conviction without having some sort of backup plan in place. Howe had already imprisoned Riordan and had possession of his notes. Howe had either taken or destroyed the flask containing the Archdemon's blood. Is Howe having gone out of his way to ensnare the Senior Warden going to simply discard his stuff without checking it out? Unlikely  Loghain certainly wouldn't have and by then the two of them were working together. The Landsmeet would be greatly concerned about the Darkspawn and the Bilght (which btw Loghain changes his opinion on having already stated twice earlier that the Blight did not exist - Riordan was tortured and could have revealed some information) . It is my contention that Loghain a careful man was hedging his bets here and saving the archdemons blood just in case it was a Blight. The mystery surrounding the Grey Warden's initiation is some intelligence that needed to be discovered before simply discounting them surely? With no Grey wardens in Ferelden and the ones from Orlais leaving Ferelden to it's fate surely he wouldn't have been that stupid to have ignored the possibility however remote. Obessessed ? Yes. Stupid? I don't think so 

[Asdara]

Cobwebmaster wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Did he even know about the necessarity of the Grey Wardens to kill the Archdemon? I hadn't him with me yet in the conversation with Riordan. I thought he stole the Archdemons blood solely to stop the wardens from recruiting. Or just to annoy them.

Loghain says he doesn't know that a Grey Warden is needed to kill an Archdemon, when Riordan asks you after the Landsmeet. I really don't see any reason for him to lie about it then.

He states in the Landsmeet that the Grey Wardens aren't needed to deal with the Blight. How can he say that with any conviction without having some sort of backup plan in place. Howe had already imprisoned Riordan and had possession of his notes. Howe had either taken or destroyed the flask containing the Archdemon's blood. Is Howe having gone out of his way to ensnare the Senior Warden going to simply discard his stuff without checking it out? Unlikely Riordan was tortured and could have revealed some information . It is my contention that Loghain a careful man was hedging his bets here and saving the archdemons blood just in case it was a Blight. The mystery surrounding the Grey Warden's initiation is some intelligence that needed to be discovered before simply discounting them surely? With no Grey wardens in Ferelden and the ones from Orlais leaving Ferelden to it's fate surely he wouldn't have been that stupid to have ignored the possibility however remote. Obessessed ? Yes. Stupid? I don't think so 

Well remember, it's been 400 years since the last Blight - that's fairy-tale land for most people as far as history is concerned.  So no one really knows that Grey Wardens are needed or why they are needed - even some of the Grey Wardens (PC/Alistair) don't KNOW why it is, they just accept it as fact.  Loghain does not accept it as fact - he is always telling people to "attend to reality" not fairy-tale legends.  So, is it stupid to not believe in what you think is a fairy-tale?  Not really.  Turns out in this case that he's wrong, but he is basing his judgement on the reality he sees in front of him.  

As far as Riordan talking - he says he didn't and I don't see that he'd have any reason to lie.  The encrypted notes could be plans to invade Ferelden or a chocolate chip darkspawn recipe for all either Howe or Loghain knows - I'm sure they intended to study them at some point, but with the Senior Warden captured and the only two other Wardens being barely out of recruitment how pressing was that information to have?  Consider too that the Civil War is not just political but taking place on battlefields (the gossips talk about wins and losses, the Chantry board can have you go involve yourself in a scuffle) and is the real attention consumer.  The PC gets to ignore it largely before the Landsmeet but Loghain has had it on the front burner all this time.

Edit: is it me or is the coding like... /head>desk?

Modifié par Asdara, 17 juin 2010 - 04:45 .

[Cobwebmaster]

Just playing the game again and an interesting bit of timing emerged with regard to Aemon's poisoning According to one piece of testimony from Bann Teagan, Arl Aemon was poisoned before Ostagar so the plan to eliminate or at least disable potential competition was already in place and just on that piece of evidence Cailan was already doomed and the grey wardens no matter what were going to be eliminated. It does look on the surface that Loghain had planned a major coup anyway and Howe was along for the ride maxing out his own empire plans