140 réponses à ce sujet

[Markinator_123]

Based upon what Bioware has said, Shepard is a hero. With that said, I find a full renegade Shepard hard to accept as a hero (no I am not talkling about if you happen to lean a little more towards renegade, in other words this does not include renegons). Not to mention it seems as though humanity has become tyrannical in both of the renegade endings from ME1 and ME2.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 16 juin 2010 - 06:35 .

[Pacifien]

I always figured that renegade Shepard was simply the human equivalent of Saren. Ruthless, particularly proud of his own species, a bit power hungry, a bit selfish. The only thing that keeps Shepard on the side against the Reapers is simply Saren found Sovereign first. It could have gone differently, though if it had been Saren chasing down Shepard, I'm sure he would have had considerable support from the Council.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

In both paragon and renegade endings of ME and ME2, Commander Shepard eradicates the imminent threat of the respective game. He is in fact a hero. For example, walking around the citadel in ME2 after allowing the council to die. You will get your fair share of abuse, but for the most part you are known as the savior of the citadel.

[EricHVela]

Not really a villain. He can be one of them "anti-heroes" who aren't nice but still save the world, like Ash from Army of Darkness. He can't go on a murderous rampage (excepting Collectors).

[Fiery Phoenix]

Two seperate paths leading to the same overall location, really. But I know what you mean and I've wondered about it before.

[Lt Davo]

I'm disappointed in what "renegade" has come to mean in ME2. In ME1, it meant Shepard was gruff and irritable, took a few shortcuts, and didn't put up with people's crap. He didn't like to leave any potential loose ends that could come back to cause problems later, like Shiala or the rachni. Better safe than sorry. Shepard was a no-nonsense hero who didn't play by the rules. That's what renegade meant in ME1, and it was cool.

In ME2, renegade means Shepard is a d_ck to people just for the sake of being a d_ck, he's completely selfish, and doesn't care how much suffering he causes as he saves the galaxy. The classic example is in Zaeed's loyalty mission. Renegade Shepard lets civilians burn to death so one mercenary gets a better chance at taking out revenge on another mercenary. Renegade Shepard in ME2 is often a villain, and I think that's too bad.

While playing ME1, I enjoyed making the renegade / paragon decisions because there was no real "right" and "wrong", so the choice was one of attitude or personality. In ME2, it's a choice of character, and a lot of the fun has gone out of it for me.

[Bhatair]

Renegade Shep

[Markinator_123]

Lt Davo wrote...

I'm disappointed in what "renegade" has come to mean in ME2. In ME1, it meant Shepard was gruff and irritable, took a few shortcuts, and didn't put up with people's crap. He didn't like to leave any potential loose ends that could come back to cause problems later, like Shiala or the rachni. Better safe than sorry. Shepard was a no-nonsense hero who didn't play by the rules. That's what renegade meant in ME1, and it was cool.

In ME2, renegade means Shepard is a d_ck to people just for the sake of being a d_ck, he's completely selfish, and doesn't care how much suffering he causes as he saves the galaxy. The classic example is in Zaeed's loyalty mission. Renegade Shepard lets civilians burn to death so one mercenary gets a better chance at taking out revenge on another mercenary. Renegade Shepard in ME2 is often a villain, and I think that's too bad.

While playing ME1, I enjoyed making the renegade / paragon decisions because there was no real "right" and "wrong", so the choice was one of attitude or personality. In ME2, it's a choice of character, and a lot of the fun has gone out of it for me.

You could also mention killing Samara and keeping Morinth. That is the most pointlessly evil decision I have seen in both games. That alone ruins the renegade story.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 16 juin 2010 - 07:14 .

[LorDC]

Lt Davo wrote...

I'm disappointed in what "renegade" has come to mean in ME2. In ME1, it meant Shepard was gruff and irritable, took a few shortcuts, and didn't put up with people's crap. He didn't like to leave any potential loose ends that could come back to cause problems later, like Shiala or the rachni. Better safe than sorry. Shepard was a no-nonsense hero who didn't play by the rules. That's what renegade meant in ME1, and it was cool.

In ME2, renegade means Shepard is a d_ck to people just for the sake of being a d_ck, he's completely selfish, and doesn't care how much suffering he causes as he saves the galaxy. The classic example is in Zaeed's loyalty mission. Renegade Shepard lets civilians burn to death so one mercenary gets a better chance at taking out revenge on another mercenary. Renegade Shepard in ME2 is often a villain, and I think that's too bad.

While playing ME1, I enjoyed making the renegade / paragon decisions because there was no real "right" and "wrong", so the choice was one of attitude or personality. In ME2, it's a choice of character, and a lot of the fun has gone out of it for me.

Seriously? I got exactly opposite feeling.

[Cyberfrog81]

I think renegade Shepards can be plenty nasty in either game. In ME1 there was several execution style killings.

There are definitely questionable things. Like previously mentioned Morinth. Maybe they were going to explore grey area morality a bit, but that kind of falls flat. Samara is a killer, but is capable of remorse (not to mention her prey are criminals, while Morinth's are innocent, talented young people). Therefore the characters are nothing alike. Backstabbing Samara can be done for the lulz; no-one seems able to come up with a sensible in-character justification.

When you compare DarkGem2's "Shepard is a jerk" videos (he has one for both games)... this is highly unscientific, but seems to me renegade Shepard is an a-hole in both games, only he/they got funnier in ME2. Not a bad thing IMHO.

[EricHVela]

Lt Davo wrote...

I'm disappointed in what "renegade" has come to mean in ME2. In ME1, it meant Shepard was gruff and irritable, took a few shortcuts, and didn't put up with people's crap. He didn't like to leave any potential loose ends that could come back to cause problems later, like Shiala or the rachni. Better safe than sorry. Shepard was a no-nonsense hero who didn't play by the rules. That's what renegade meant in ME1, and it was cool.

In ME2, renegade means Shepard is a d_ck to people just for the sake of being a d_ck, he's completely selfish, and doesn't care how much suffering he causes as he saves the galaxy. The classic example is in Zaeed's loyalty mission. Renegade Shepard lets civilians burn to death so one mercenary gets a better chance at taking out revenge on another mercenary. Renegade Shepard in ME2 is often a villain, and I think that's too bad.

While playing ME1, I enjoyed making the renegade / paragon decisions because there was no real "right" and "wrong", so the choice was one of attitude or personality. In ME2, it's a choice of character, and a lot of the fun has gone out of it for me.

^ this.

People wanted to be "good" and bad-@&# at the same time so Bioware(EA) gave it to them.

Renegades are bad-@&# rule-breakers. Paragons are idols for others to emulate. (Look up them up in a dictionary.)

Too bad people didn't get that and assumed that Renegade (bad-@&#) was bad and Paragon (epitome of law-abiding) was good, becoming wrong and right respectively.

The whole thing was nailed home when they pulled the old KotOR appearance change in concert with Paragon and Renegade. That was just dumb. They took the grey area and polarized it. That sounds like EA and not the Bioware I'm used to.

[Chuvvy]

Not close at all. More of a dick.

Modifié par Slidell505, 17 juin 2010 - 01:47 .

[Foolsfolly]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Lt Davo wrote...

I'm disappointed in what "renegade" has come to mean in ME2. In ME1, it meant Shepard was gruff and irritable, took a few shortcuts, and didn't put up with people's crap. He didn't like to leave any potential loose ends that could come back to cause problems later, like Shiala or the rachni. Better safe than sorry. Shepard was a no-nonsense hero who didn't play by the rules. That's what renegade meant in ME1, and it was cool.

In ME2, renegade means Shepard is a d_ck to people just for the sake of being a d_ck, he's completely selfish, and doesn't care how much suffering he causes as he saves the galaxy. The classic example is in Zaeed's loyalty mission. Renegade Shepard lets civilians burn to death so one mercenary gets a better chance at taking out revenge on another mercenary. Renegade Shepard in ME2 is often a villain, and I think that's too bad.

While playing ME1, I enjoyed making the renegade / paragon decisions because there was no real "right" and "wrong", so the choice was one of attitude or personality. In ME2, it's a choice of character, and a lot of the fun has gone out of it for me.

You could also mention killing Samara and keeping Morinth. That is the most pointlessly evil decision I have seen in both games. That alone ruins the renegade story.

Really? Killing Shiala's more pointlessly evil than killing Samara. Killing Samara's actually a bit smart on Renegade Shepard's part since Samara will tell Renegade Shepard that she'd kill him once their mission is over. So Shepard gets rid of an enemy and still has a powerful biotic on his side.

BioWare never changed Renegades. They were always evil dicks.

Zaeed's Loyalty Mission is perfectly Renegade from the first game just like allowing the Council to die, gunning down Zhu's Hope, pointing a gun at Conrad Verner, committing genocide on the rachni out of fear of a future war, or killing Wrex because he pointed a gun at you. The Renegade Shepard has always been anti-villain doing only what is required to finish his mission and everyone else be damned. In Zaeed's case Zaeed says "I don't care about the workers I want Vido dead!" And you need every gun you can get to save the universe so to hell with 6 or so workers burning to death.

That's why the villain of the first game is Saren who is exactly like Renegade Shepard in his methods. While playing Renegade Shepard through the first game the only difference between Shepard and Saren was that Saren got indoctrinated. They're both bigoted "any means necessary" kind of guys.

And you'd have to be evil to gun down a whole innocent mind-controlled colony and then execute an innocent Shiala.

[Lt Davo]

Shepard had no idea whether Shiala was innocent. He had no idea whether anything she told him was true, or what she was going to do on that colony after he left. Paragon Shepard was taking a risk leaving her alive with the colonists; renegade Shepard didn't want to take that risk. Neither choice was wrong or evil. What made that scene so powerful was that Shiala submitted to Shepard, rather than putting up a fight and dying in battle.

Killing the colonists was less defensible; his only justification was that he trusted his gun to keep him alive more than he trusted the gas grenades. I'll give you that one.

[Cheese Elemental]

I don't play 'pure' Renegade. I go Paragon for the big decisions, like sparing the Rachni queen and advocating peace between the Quarians and Geth. You'll need all the allies you can get come ME3, especially if you destroy the Collector base.
I also never partake in pro-human dialogue or choices. It makes me feel bad. Remember, Renegade doesn't equal evil.

Modifié par Cheese Elemental, 17 juin 2010 - 04:46 .

[JKoopman]

Lt Davo wrote...

Killing the colonists was less defensible; his only justification was that he trusted his gun to keep him alive more than he trusted the gas grenades. I'll give you that one.

Which is kind of a moot point anyway, since you can easily "play it renegade" with the colonists and still save them all simply by begrudingly allowing your squad to hold their fire in conversation ("but if they get too close, take 'em down") and then meleeing the colonists to knock them out. That's what my RenShep did...

[TheGreyGhost119]

Renegade Shepard is basically a human Saren in my eyes. I actually thought Zaeeds loyalty mission was the most obvious of this, as it was a mirror to the mission Saren and Captain Anderson were on together.



He's ruthless and lets nothing get in his way. He's pretty much evil, but not a villain as he has done nothing to endanger the greater good.

[JKoopman]

TheGreyGhost119 wrote...

Renegade Shepard is basically a human Saren in my eyes. I actually thought Zaeeds loyalty mission was the most obvious of this, as it was a mirror to the mission Saren and Captain Anderson were on together.

He's ruthless and lets nothing get in his way. He's pretty much evil, but not a villain as he has done nothing to endanger the greater good.

Actually, Zaeed's loyalty mission isn't really analogous to Saren's actions. Saren himself intenionally sabotaged and destroyed an entire refinery and killed hundreds of workers just going about their business solely as a distraction to make infiltrating his target base a tiny bit easier (and to make Anderson look bad, but that's getting off subject). It's Zaeed who sabotages the refinery on Zorya, and his reasoning in doing so is quite a bit more sound than Saren's as his target (and an entire company of hostile mercs) actually resides in said exploding refinery. Renegade Shepard, for his part, just goes along with it after the fact, and even then you still confront him about it and basically say "My show, my rules. You ever pull that sh*t again and we're gonna have a problem."

The only real distinction between paragon and renegade there is whether you place priority on saving a handful of hostages or on eliminating your target. In that respect, it's more analogous to the decision in Bring Down the Sky.

Modifié par JKoopman, 17 juin 2010 - 07:01 .

[Sphaerus]

For the nth time.



"Renegade" does not mean "evil", you ill-educated little ****monster.

[Chuvvy]

Sphaerus wrote...
nth.

Yeah **** vowels.

[Jazharah]

Bhatair wrote...

Renegade Shep

This.
I love killing Samara, leaving the Salarian at the Dantius tower to die, leaving the workers in Zaeed's loyalty mission to burn... because I can. Why does a dog lick his own [yeahyeah, I'll censor it myself, no need for ****]? Right.

Now, I can't do these things in RL, am not even inclined to. Being able to make such a villainy choice in a game gives me the opportunity to become aware of my own darker emotions, recognize them, give them a place and be done with it. Thank you BioWare for letting Shepard be able to be a 'Heroic Sociopath'. I didn't know I could do it, turns out I can, and now that I know that I can, I won't have to see if I can for real.

[Ieldra]

I think most Renegade decisions are defensible from a "some ends justify more drastic means" perspective. There are some decisions you can see as evil, but not that many. I'm just playing a Renegade who never uses those "evil" options. Examples:

(1) Squadmate conflicts: the Renegade option usually amounts to invoking your authority. Yeah, I wouldn't like to have a boss like that, but evil it is not. Miranda/Jack is actually a mild example, perfectly justified by the situation: "You two, keep one deck apart at all times!". Legion/Tali is more drastic, I'd avoid that, it does sound like a villain's speech.
(2) Aggressive persuasion: note that you can avoid some of the more drastic violent interrupts and still use intimidation options in the following conversation. Examples: Mouse can be intimidated if you don't use the torture interrupt; Kelham can be intimidated before you come to that point; the merc in Nassanas tower can be intimidated into giving you information if you don't push him out the window. And you get the same amount of Renegade points if you use intimidation instead of the more violent interrupts.
(3) Loyalty mission decisions: the Renegade decision in Mordin's mission is very much defensible. Jacob's, the same. Miranda's (telling her to shoot Niket), the same. Tali's: the Renegade persuasion option at the end is really compelling. Nothing evil there, just "take your political bullsh*t elsewhere!". Killing Samara is undoubtedly one of the evil ones, but you can save Samara and still come out full Renegade at the end.
(4) Minor conversations: those usually amount to nothing evil. For instance, intimidating the Batarians who want to shoot David, or accusing the Citadel security woman of a lack of common sense when trying to get travel permission for the asari. Then the shops: yeah, so Renegade Shepard hasn't a lot of respect for shopowners. So what? Make no mistakes, the Renegade points from these minor conversations add up to a significant portion.
(5) Renegade interrupts at the start of fights: no evil in that IMO, just pre-emptive action. The scenes are often quite drastic, but really, these are enemies.

So: yes, you can play a Renegade who is a badass, rule-breaking hero without going off into villain territory. Just don't reflexively hit the Renegade interrupt button, and at every decision, think about if you want to be *that* kind of Renegade.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 juin 2010 - 08:44 .

[phordicus]

really? where do you get to not wipe out the collectors? you act like you make some grand choices or something. paragon = wimp, renegade = ****. beyond that, you're just a plot puppet.

[Khayness]

Renegade Shep isn't evil, he doesn't do things for the sake of being evil, he/she just doesn't care unless it will help him/her to achieve his/her goal.

If you've played Planescape: Torment, Shepard is the sci-fi Practical Incarnation.