140 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Khayness wrote...
Renegade Shep isn't evil, he doesn't do things for the sake of being evil, he/she just doesn't care unless it will help him/her to achieve his/her goal.
If you've played Planescape: Torment, Shepard is the sci-fi Practical Incarnation.

Except that in PS:T, the Practical One is evil.

[Cyberfrog81]

Nasty people IN GENERAL don't do things "for the sake of being evil." The monster doesn't see a monster in the mirror.

But to the outside observer, their actions may well be considered "evil".

[Khayness]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Except that in PS:T, the Practical One is evil.

He did what he had to do in order to get into the Fortress, he didn't do all those "horrible" things for the sake of enjoyment.

[Foolsfolly]

"The Villain is the Protagonist of their own story."

[Cyberfrog81]

Khayness wrote...
He did what he had to do in order to get into the Fortress, he didn't do all those "horrible" things for the sake of enjoyment.

You don't have to be a sadist to be a "villain".

Modifié par Cyberfrog81, 17 juin 2010 - 01:54 .

[borelocin]

But was being a dick to people ever this much fun ? Zapping a merc with his own arc welder. Head butting some ****** a high rise. In a lot of games the "red" option is pointless cruelty. In Mass Effect the "red" option is the ends justifying any means.

[Foolsfolly]

Also I want to say that while you can role-play Shepard into what the marketing guys for BioWare claimed the Renegade was (a non-evil results at all cost hero something they similarly claimed about the Closed Fist path in Jade Empire where you want people to be strong for themselves while the Closed Fist ending had you enslaving a god and forcing your will on the Empire) it is not what a "pure Renegade" as the title of the thread says it is. A pure Renegade would mow down Zhu's Hope, treat their crew terribly, be racist, and generally not a nice guy.



I've played practical Renegades (midway through ME1 right now with one) but they always accumulate a fair share of Paragon points along with the Renegade ones. Like a practical Renegade would not punch a reporter because she was working with a bias. They'd just leave or answer the questions until fed up enough to leave. Punching a reporter on camera is not practical or level headed it's just juvenile, unnecessary, and mean.



In practice BioWare's formed the Renegade path like the Closed Fist path before it, the general idea was to not do a 'good and evil' karma system but they're ultimately just renamed good and evil karma systems.

[Markinator_123]

I am not saying that renegade is evil. I make quite a few renegade choices (I am a paragade player). My concern was the difference between a full renegade shepard and a practical one. Realistically speaking, in order for me to still accept a renegade Shepard as a hero he should not be a full one(aka always taking the renegade path).

[_purifico_]

Renegade Shepard is not a villain - he's just a bully and generaly a bad person. He's also the biggest douchebag on this side of Perseus Veil. His level of douchebaggery surpasses even Udina's. All in all not a pleasant dude to have around. Kinda reminds me of Comedian from Watchmen

[JKoopman]

Playing a "pure" anything by default means taking it to the extreme. A pure Renegade may come off like a sociopathic d*ck, but a pure Paragon comes off like a pandering wuss as well. The best results come from a mixture of the two, with each option being chosen when appropriate.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Like a practical Renegade would not punch a reporter because she was working with a bias.

How do you figure? I patterned my Renegade Shepard on Lieutenant Rasczak from Starship Troopers (who pretty much everyone who watched the movie would consider to be a hero), and punching a biased reporter on camera is exactly something he would've done. Renegades are very much "I'm not going to concern myself with politics or etiquette or any other bullsh*t. I make no compromises. I make no excuses. I'm taking the most direct and practical path to my goal and if you get in my way or try to stop me, I'm gonna make you hurt." So yes, a Renegade Shepard would punch a reporter who was trying to smear him (and by extension, Captain Anderson and Alliance Command) and he wouldn't give a rat's a** whether it was caught on camera.

_purifico_ wrote...

All in all not a pleasant dude to have around. Kinda reminds me of Comedian from Watchmen

Or maybe more like the Comedian and Rorschach combined.

Modifié par JKoopman, 17 juin 2010 - 05:24 .

[JKoopman]

Sorry, double post.

Modifié par JKoopman, 17 juin 2010 - 05:09 .

[lovgreno]

There is a risk that a renegade Shepard may become like Saren. Not evil but rather arrogant and overconfident. But he/she is not that far gone yet.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

lovgreno wrote...

There is a risk that a renegade Shepard may become like Saren. Not evil but rather arrogant and overconfident. But he/she is not that far gone yet.

I don't really see the renegade path to be any more arrogant than the paragon path. A renegade's pride comes in the form of overconfidence for sure; however, the paragon Shepard's pride comes from his self-righteousness.

[lovgreno]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

There is a risk that a renegade Shepard may become like Saren. Not evil but rather arrogant and overconfident. But he/she is not that far gone yet.

I don't really see the renegade path to be any more arrogant than the paragon path. A renegade's pride comes in the form of overconfidence for sure; however, the paragon Shepard's pride comes from his self-righteousness.

Good point. I agree.

[Markinator_123]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

There is a risk that a renegade Shepard may become like Saren. Not evil but rather arrogant and overconfident. But he/she is not that far gone yet.

I don't really see the renegade path to be any more arrogant than the paragon path. A renegade's pride comes in the form of overconfidence for sure; however, the paragon Shepard's pride comes from his self-righteousness.

That is a very good point especially when you consider Paragon Shepard's dialogue on the genophage. Talk about being naive and judgmental

[Dean_the_Young]

The Paragon has always been judgmental: forgiving, to be sure, but from a position of 'my higher morals,' not 'you were perfectly justified.'

[Sphaerus]

Slidell505 wrote...

Sphaerus wrote...
nth.

Yeah **** vowels.

Olde quote I know, but I feel like educating people.  Here's this (first set of uses of N).

"N" and "nth" is used in mathematics to describe an unknown, unkowable or variable natural number (i.e. positive integers1 to infinity).  By saying "the nth time",  I mean that I do not know exactly how many times this has been said, but it is a number of times, implied to be a large number of times.

Because knowing is half the battle.

[Dean_the_Young]

And the other half is trying not to be slapped for using 80's cartoon catch phrases.

[BatarianBob]

How close is a full renegade Shepard to being a full blown villain

Not very. The closest Shepard can come to being truly villainous is gunning down the Feros colonists, and you can have a pretty full renegade bar without doing that.



Morinth is another that's tough to justify. Maybe Shepard has more sympathy for a murderer who kills as a side effect of their biology than one who kills out of religious zealotry? Anyway, "Shoot them both" would have been a good option to have right then.

[STG]

Sometimes renegade just doesn't make sense, like this for example:

www.youtube.com/watch

I always laugh when I see it, and I've done it too but really, why report if you're just going to cut them off as soon as they get online?

However I wouldn't say that renegade is a villain, just a guy who is not too big on morals and is willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. He may do some questionable things, true, but he has a good reason behind them. Specially when entire galaxy is at risk.

On the whole it seems that paragon is in greater trouble in ME3 than renegade. After all paragon players work "against" the council more than once. Saving the rachni queen, rewriting the geth and keeping the genophage cure are all actions that are in a way anti-council. It was the council who was at war with the rachni and authorized for them to be wiped out. It was the council who used the genophage and it was the council that was at war with the geth.

Of course there are good reasons behind those actions but I can't see the council trusting you if they dissmised Sovereign.

[andy christo]

lol @ all the loser paragons in this thread.

Go watch Dirty Harry for an excellent example of a "renegade" hero.

Modifié par andy christo, 18 juin 2010 - 12:40 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

andy christo wrote...

lol @ all the loser paragons in this thread.

Go watch Dirty Harry for an excellent example of a "renegade" hero.

I respect the choice to play as a paragon Shepard  (I, personally, play almost completely renegade).  I do not respect the paragon players that would say Shepard is the same as Saren or compare him to another villain.

[Foolsfolly]

Saren was the best Spectre. Always got the job done. Didn't care much for other people and totally hated humanity but replace "hatred for humans" with "hatred for batarians" and everything pre-indoctrinated Saren does is perfectly in-line with Renegade Shepard.



Don't get all twisted up with the comparison, Paragon Shepard also has a lot of similarities with Saren. They're supposed to mirror each other. The thing is he's the opposite of Paragon Shepard and a cautionary tale for Renegade Shepard.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

I see how Saren and renegade Shepard may have similar personality traits, but being merciless to your enemies and joining your enemies are two completely different things. Renegade Shepard has a bullet for those who meddle with treason.