140 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

You gave god-tech to the Illusive Man a persuasive leader who claims these extreme actions will save organics.



Sovereign told similar things to Saren. Both didn't lie either. Reapers know organics are useful look at the Keepers and Collectors. And the Illusive Man's goal is to defeat the Reapers because if he's dead then he can't own the universe.



....

[Collider]

Renegade Shepard is more of an anti-hero.

[didymos1120]

STG wrote...
 It was the council who was at war with the rachni and authorized for them to be wiped out.

Er, not quite.  That was the massive krogan horde that couldn't be effectively controlled that exterminated the Rachni.  The Krogan were simply the only species around that could even fight and survive on the planets where most Rachni lived, and the only one that could absorb the massive casualties the war was causing. 

Now, it's still an outcome the Council is responsible for, as they definitely assented to the uplifting and arming of the Krogan, but there's absolutely nothing in the games that says they ever authorized total extinction. They were much more worried about themselves going extinct at that point, and it's pretty clear they basically just turned the Krogan loose and hoped for the best.

Talk to the Krogan-statue Avina, for instance.  It's all  "the Krogan did this" and "the Krogan did that", and not much about the Council, except at the end when they "allowed" the Krogan to keep the former Rachni worlds, threw in a few more for good measure, and gave them a nice statue on the Presidium.  All of which says to me "Hey thanks, guys, umm please don't kill us? Kthx."

I mean, if they'd had any real control over them at all, the Krogan Rebellions wouldn't have ever happened. Hell, they even let them conquer all sorts of Council worlds before finally telling 'em to knock it off, to which the Krogan response was "Make us."  If the Turians hadn't made contact with the Citadel races, they'd have been crushed.

Also, if you kill the Rachni Queen, the Council is still pretty pissed at you, so I have no trouble imagining that in ME3 a Renegade might be subjected to an "Oh, you just had to kill that Rachni Queen, Shepard, didn't you? Now what are we supposed to do?" lecture

It was the council who used the genophage

Nope.  The Salarians created the genophage and planned to use it as a threat to hang over the Krogan.  The Turians, who'd recently hit the Galactic stage only to find it embroiled in the Krogan Rebellions, had been asked ( and more likely begged) to help because once again, the Council races were more or less hopelessly screwed and in no position to dictate terms to anyone about anything. So anyway, the Krogan started hitting back at the Turians and managed to really ****** them off by basically glassing a few of their worlds, the result being that when the Turians learned about the genophage they said "Screw this noise. Hand it over" and then immediately deployed the virus.   

and it was the council that was at war with the geth.

A war that was pretty much over and done with as of ME2. Just ask Anderson/Udina.  What's more, those Geth were a splinter group, and whatever your choice on that mission, they're no longer a problem.  IOW, unless you sold Legion or pissed it off, Shepard has:

a. Acquired extremely significant intel on a race that was basically a total unknown for the last 3 centuries.

b. Established rather cordial diplomatic relations with said race for the first time ever.

c. Prevented who knows how many deaths by making further mop-up operations unecessary.

and, as I see it,  the best from the Council's POV:

d. Opened the door to Quarian-Geth relations (depending on how you played it, of course).

Why is that last one so great? Well, the Quarians will learn that the Geth have no interest in living on the homeworld and have actually spent a fair amount of time and effort cleaning up various messes left over from Morning War, and that in their own way, they regret what they eventually did to the Creators. I.e., there's a very, very real possibility that they'd simply let the Quarians resettle their worlds if they'd agree to not attack the Geth.  The Council could then re-instate the Quarians' status in Council space on that condition, and make it clear they'd wouldn't hesitate to use the Fleet should the Quarians try anything. 

Bang: no more Migrant Fleet roaming about annoying basically every other species.  Massive PR win for that alone, not to mention all sorts of business opportunities that the resettlement would create. Then there's the trade possibilities with the Geth, and that of the Quarians contributing much more to Galactic civilization at large by virtue of not having to scrape for survival anymore.  Yes, we know that in the face of the Reapers, all that is rather academic, but those are exactly the sort of results the Council truly digs, and what's more, exactly the sorts of situations and issues that they're best equipped to understand. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 18 juin 2010 - 05:55 .

[andy christo]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

andy christo wrote...

lol @ all the loser paragons in this thread.

Go watch Dirty Harry for an excellent example of a "renegade" hero.

I respect the choice to play as a paragon Shepard  (I, personally, play almost completely renegade).  I do not respect the paragon players that would say Shepard is the same as Saren or compare him to another villain.

Yeah, I play renegade too. Paragons are just fine, in my opinion. Some of the paragon options are actually pretty cool. I just hate the namby pamby paragons that try to make paragon shepard look like a saint and renegade shepard look like a villain. Sure, renegade Shepard does some messed up stuff, but he/she isn't doing it for personal gain, Shepard is doing it for the benefit of the entire galaxy.

Shepard is pretty much the Jomes Bond of Mass Effect. Licensed to kill, on an impossible mission (seriously, the Reapers are NO JOKE.)
He/she has all kinds of responsibility. When you're in that kind of position you can't afford to make decisions based on what you want, and you can only be so polite.

It annoys me when people compare Shepard to Saren. Saren may have been recognized as a good Specter, but I think Shepard was a better Specter. I say this because Saren was indoctrinated by Sovereign, while Shepard killed Sovereign.

[maddenking2010]

True, I play a pure renegade whos brutality and ways of getting things done mirror if not exceed that of saren. That said I dont role play, these ways make sense when the galaxy is at stake, but you can play pure renegade, and  not be a jerk. I spoke to my crewmates with respect and honor, and people whom i trusted. Renegade doesnt neccasrily mean your a ******, and it certainly doesnt make them a villan.

[The Unfallen]

I play Paragon because I like Paragon.



I am a Renegade's worst nightmare.



PH4ER me.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

I play Paragon because I like Paragon.

I am a Renegade's worst nightmare.

PH4ER me.

In the middle of your little Paragon speech, my RenShep kills you.

[snfonseka]

Lt Davo wrote...
In ME2, renegade means Shepard is a d_ck to people just for the sake of being a d_ck, he's completely selfish, and doesn't care how much suffering he causes as he saves the galaxy. The classic example is in Zaeed's loyalty mission. Renegade Shepard lets civilians burn to death so one mercenary gets a better chance at taking out revenge on another mercenary. Renegade Shepard in ME2 is often a villain, and I think that's too bad.

If you like you can see this in a different view point... Vido is the co-founder of Blue Sons who made it into army of thugs/ criminals who try to make money from any kind of low level work (according to Zaeed ). So killing him will benefits the galaxy very much (inderectly). So you let that people die and choose to go after Vido not just for Zaeed... Also for the sake of the stability in the galaxy :innocent:....

[snfonseka]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

I play Paragon because I like Paragon.

I am a Renegade's worst nightmare.

PH4ER me.

In the middle of your little Paragon speech, my RenShep kills you.

Using Renegade interupt ...

[II Sl4sh3r II]

Slidell505 wrote...

Sphaerus wrote...
nth.

Yeah **** vowels.

Haha... He was saying for the N'th time... N being a variable for the amount of times this has been said.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

The Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions really don't make any sense. In an interstellar war ground troops shouldn't matter. If the rachni burrow under any planets that are 'too hostile' for your troops then those planets are obviously not garden worlds. In which case there is no reason you can't manipulate a large comet or asteroid (or several) to pummel the planet, turning the crust molten and killing all the rachni without needing to sacrifice even a single soldier on your part.

I am still waiting for them to explain this. It is a consistent inconsistency.

Miranda even says husks would make excellent shock troopers. Against what?

Reapers? Huh. Good luck with that, TIM.

[AntiChri5]

Fire them out of torpedo tubes!

[mosor]

I personally enjoy the renegade path more on the whole. There is just something too idealistic and too trusting in a completely paragon shep for me to believe that he could save the galaxy. Renegade decisions just seem more rational. Here are some of the ones people have problems with but a renegade could easily justify without being labeled a villian.



1. Shiala. You only know that she is ok for now. You don't know if she would revert to her indoctrinated state. Benezia snapped out of her indoctrination long enough to help you, maybe the same thing happened with Shiala. We know she is permanently free of indoctrination now, but at the time? Maybe better safe than sorry.



2. Help Zaeed rather than the factory workers. You know Vido is a pirate from the N7 missions you do in ME2. You can save a few factory workers now, or you can kill Vido and prevent him killing many more innocent crews of various ships. He rightly can be viewed as too dangerous to let live,



3. Samara. You can't trust Samara as a renegade. She basically says she finds your actions objectionable and would attack you if not bound to her oath. Is this someone you want covering your back on a suicide mission? Wouldn't you rather have someone else who has no qualms about doing what is needed with you like Morinth? Sure she is a ruthless killer. So are the many of the squadmates you pick up, especially Jack and Zaeed.

[didymos1120]

Shandepared wrote...

The Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions really don't make any sense. In an interstellar war ground troops shouldn't matter. If the rachni burrow under any planets that are 'too hostile' for your troops then those planets are obviously not garden worlds. In which case there is no reason you can't manipulate a large comet or asteroid (or several) to pummel the planet, turning the crust molten and killing all the rachni without needing to sacrifice even a single soldier on your part.

Yes, assuming your goal isn't simply ending the war, but rendering the enemy utterly extinct.  We know that's what happened (well, mostly).  We have no particular reason to think that was the plan all along, or, well, ever for that matter.  It's entirely not clear that what the Krogan ended up doing was authorized.  Krogan are, well, Krogan.  I really doubt they just meekly obeyed Council orders and/or patiently waited for approval after submitting their latest battleplan.

Also:

a. A lot of Council worlds were conquered, and had to be retaken. 
b. Who said the Krogan were only ever used as infantry? Not the Codex, that's for sure:

But when krogan fleets pressed them back to their homeworld, the rachni
refused to surrender, and the krogan eradicated them from the galaxy.

and you're assuming:

c. The Rachni only inhabited non-garden worlds in their original territory.
d.  The Krogan never glassed any planets during the Rachni Wars.  Considering that that's how they royally pissed off the Turians, I have trouble believing that.
e.  The Krogan probably launched some of those ground invasions simply because they thought it'd be more fun than lobbing giant rocks from space all the time.
f. That by time the Council races (at that time, just the Asari and Salarians) might have seriously considered planet-glassing, they were in any shape to pull it off.

and finally:
 
g. The fact that that period of galactic history is called the Rachni Wars, not the Rachni War, suggests that it wasn't a  case of "open mass relay, and BAM! Instant transition to a state of total war."  I.e., it escalated over time.

Modifié par didymos1120, 02 juillet 2010 - 01:51 .

[didymos1120]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

The Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions really don't make any sense. In an interstellar war ground troops shouldn't matter. If the rachni burrow under any planets that are 'too hostile' for your troops then those planets are obviously not garden worlds. In which case there is no reason you can't manipulate a large comet or asteroid (or several) to pummel the planet, turning the crust molten and killing all the rachni without needing to sacrifice even a single soldier on your part.

I am still waiting for them to explain this. It is a consistent inconsistency.

Miranda even says husks would make excellent shock troopers. Against what?

Reapers? Huh. Good luck with that, TIM.

Yes, Reapers.  Or rather, their tools. They don't just go around slagging every planet.  They typically isolate regions of the galaxy and then harvest the worlds therein methodically.  And often use indoctrinated captives to do it.  Also, who made the husks to begin with?  Reapers.  Mindless, aggressive techno-zombies aren't really good for much beyond being mindlessly aggressive.  Well, scaring the crap out of people, but thats mostly down to the mindless aggression, with the rest coming from being creepy-looking quasi-corpses.

[didymos1120]

mosor wrote...
3. Samara. You can't trust Samara as a renegade. She basically says she finds your actions objectionable and would attack you if not bound to her oath. Is this someone you want covering your back on a suicide mission?

Of course you can. What part of “By the code I will serve you, Shepard. Your choices are my choices. Your morals are my morals. Your wishes are my code" is so hard to understand? No matter what, she will finish that mission, or die trying.  You just have a problem after the suicide mission is over, assuming she survives. It's rather nice of her to give you advance warning, too, I say. 

Is this someone you want covering your back on a suicide mission?

She's not there to cover your back.  She's there because she swore an oath requiring her to follow your orders.  So order her to do something else, like escort the crew back or stick with the other team while you take Jack through the seeker swarm.  Then leave her to hold the line. 

[mosor]

didymos1120 wrote...

mosor wrote...
3. Samara. You can't trust Samara as a renegade. She basically says she finds your actions objectionable and would attack you if not bound to her oath. Is this someone you want covering your back on a suicide mission?

Of course you can. What part of “By the code I will serve you, Shepard. Your choices are my choices. Your morals are my morals. Your wishes are my code" is so hard to understand? No matter what, she will finish that mission, or die trying.  You just have a problem after the suicide mission is over, assuming she survives. It's rather nice of her to give you advance warning, too, I say. 

Is this someone you want covering your back on a suicide mission?

She's not there to cover your back.  She's there because she swore an oath requiring her to follow your orders.  So order her to do something else, like escort the crew back or stick with the other team while you take Jack through the seeker swarm.  Then leave her to hold the line. 

Sorry but Sheppard is human. How much stock can he possibly put in a justicar oath when he has no experience dealing with them. When does Samara see the oath fufilled? As soon as the collectors are destroyed? Don't want to chance having a gun pointed at me the moment the last collector dies. Of course that doesn't happen, but why should renegade shep take that chance when there is someone equally as powerful willing to do whatever is necessary?

[AntiChri5]

Because that "equally as powerfull" individual has already tried to kill you once?

[Barquiel]

mosor wrote...

1. Shiala. You only know that she is ok for now. You don't know if she would revert to her indoctrinated state. Benezia snapped out of her indoctrination long enough to help you, maybe the same thing happened with Shiala. We know she is permanently free of indoctrination now, but at the time? Maybe better safe than sorry.

2. Help Zaeed rather than the factory workers. You know Vido is a pirate from the N7 missions you do in ME2. You can save a few factory workers now, or you can kill Vido and prevent him killing many more innocent crews of various ships. He rightly can be viewed as too dangerous to let live,

3. Samara. You can't trust Samara as a renegade. She basically says she finds your actions objectionable and would attack you if not bound to her oath. Is this someone you want covering your back on a suicide mission? Wouldn't you rather have someone else who has no qualms about doing what is needed with you like Morinth? Sure she is a ruthless killer. So are the many of the squadmates you pick up, especially Jack and Zaeed.

1. Benezia (a matriarch...more powerful than Shiala) can resist the indoctrination for some seconds before she attacks you again. Shiala talks about Saren's plans and gives you the cipher...and she has no problems.

2. I doubt the Blue Suns will dissolve if you kill Vido.
3. I like Morinth:wub:, but she isn't exactly trustworthy.
Morinth is addicted to killing and Shep doesn't know if she can control herself aboard the Normandy.

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

mosor wrote...

1. Shiala. You only know that she is ok for now. You don't know if she would revert to her indoctrinated state. Benezia snapped out of her indoctrination long enough to help you, maybe the same thing happened with Shiala. We know she is permanently free of indoctrination now, but at the time? Maybe better safe than sorry.

2. Help Zaeed rather than the factory workers. You know Vido is a pirate from the N7 missions you do in ME2. You can save a few factory workers now, or you can kill Vido and prevent him killing many more innocent crews of various ships. He rightly can be viewed as too dangerous to let live,

3. Samara. You can't trust Samara as a renegade. She basically says she finds your actions objectionable and would attack you if not bound to her oath. Is this someone you want covering your back on a suicide mission? Wouldn't you rather have someone else who has no qualms about doing what is needed with you like Morinth? Sure she is a ruthless killer. So are the many of the squadmates you pick up, especially Jack and Zaeed.

1. Benezia (a matriarch...more powerful than Shiala) can resist the indoctrination for some seconds before she attacks you again. Shiala talks about Saren's plans and gives you the cipher...and she has no problems.

2. I doubt the Blue Suns will dissolve if you kill Vido.
3. I like Morinth:wub:, but she isn't exactly trustworthy.
Morinth is addicted to killing and Shep doesn't know if she can control herself aboard the Normandy.

Sure Benezia is a matriarch, but Shiala isn't that far from that power either. Besides, Saren/Sovereign was keeping an eye on Benezia because their plans weren't fully completed. In regards to Shiala, they thought she was out of the way because she was absorbed by the thorian. They didn't think to retake control of her when she was freed. Thats why she was able to act independantly. However, there is a good chance that if they knew she was alive, they would retake control of her. Not taking that risk isn't evil.

The blue suns won't disolve if you kill vido, but you did take out the primary organizer of that group. No one will step in and fill that role any time soon and maybe the next leader would continue their traditional role of mercenaries rather than turn pirate like vido did.

Morinth being addicted to killing really doesn't matter. She'll have plenty of opportunties to kill as a member of your squad. She can't be any worse than Jack. Besides on a team you want someone to support your decisions wholeheartedly rather than be forced to by some code. Morinth is more likely to support a renegade shep.

[ExtremeOne]

i would rather be a renegade and crush anyone in front of me that blocks me from saving the galaxy

[KainrycKarr]

Darth Shepard

[MajesticJazz]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

Lt Davo wrote...

I'm disappointed in what "renegade" has come to mean in ME2. In ME1, it meant Shepard was gruff and irritable, took a few shortcuts, and didn't put up with people's crap. He didn't like to leave any potential loose ends that could come back to cause problems later, like Shiala or the rachni. Better safe than sorry. Shepard was a no-nonsense hero who didn't play by the rules. That's what renegade meant in ME1, and it was cool.

In ME2, renegade means Shepard is a d_ck to people just for the sake of being a d_ck, he's completely selfish, and doesn't care how much suffering he causes as he saves the galaxy. The classic example is in Zaeed's loyalty mission. Renegade Shepard lets civilians burn to death so one mercenary gets a better chance at taking out revenge on another mercenary. Renegade Shepard in ME2 is often a villain, and I think that's too bad.

While playing ME1, I enjoyed making the renegade / paragon decisions because there was no real "right" and "wrong", so the choice was one of attitude or personality. In ME2, it's a choice of character, and a lot of the fun has gone out of it for me.

You could also mention killing Samara and keeping Morinth. That is the most pointlessly evil decision I have seen in both games. That alone ruins the renegade story.

Really? Killing Shiala's more pointlessly evil than killing Samara. Killing Samara's actually a bit smart on Renegade Shepard's part since Samara will tell Renegade Shepard that she'd kill him once their mission is over. So Shepard gets rid of an enemy and still has a powerful biotic on his side.

BioWare never changed Renegades. They were always evil dicks.

Zaeed's Loyalty Mission is perfectly Renegade from the first game just like allowing the Council to die, gunning down Zhu's Hope, pointing a gun at Conrad Verner, committing genocide on the rachni out of fear of a future war, or killing Wrex because he pointed a gun at you. The Renegade Shepard has always been anti-villain doing only what is required to finish his mission and everyone else be damned. In Zaeed's case Zaeed says "I don't care about the workers I want Vido dead!" And you need every gun you can get to save the universe so to hell with 6 or so workers burning to death.

That's why the villain of the first game is Saren who is exactly like Renegade Shepard in his methods. While playing Renegade Shepard through the first game the only difference between Shepard and Saren was that Saren got indoctrinated. They're both bigoted "any means necessary" kind of guys.

And you'd have to be evil to gun down a whole innocent mind-controlled colony and then execute an innocent Shiala.

Well said