140 réponses à ce sujet

[alienatedflea]

he is pretty close to a full blown villian in my opinion...he committed genocide of the rachni...he destroyed a cure for the genophage which could have made krogan strong and united again...he is racist against aliens and loves his fellow humans...he is all for a prohuman terrorist group called Cerberus...helps no one unless it benefits him...he allows murder to occur unchecked...renegade shep is a very good villian...while paragon shep is the hero...

[PsyrenY]

alienatedflea wrote...

he is pretty close to a full blown villian in my opinion...he committed genocide of the rachni...he destroyed a cure for the genophage which could have made krogan strong and united again...he is racist against aliens and loves his fellow humans...he is all for a prohuman terrorist group called Cerberus...helps no one unless it benefits him...he allows murder to occur unchecked...renegade shep is a very good villian...while paragon shep is the hero...

You can justify all of those things.

1) He has no proof that the Rachni won't end up re-enslaved by the Reapers and used as extremely powerful shock troops again.
2) The krogan still aren't ready for the cure. Wrex is getting them there, but there are still lots of d!ckhead clans around, and if one of them gets the cure first then Urdnot is screwed and we're right back to the Rebellions.
3) There is nothing wrong with a "prohuman group" in and of itself. The STG are pro-Salarian and the Commandoes are pro-Asari. Cerberus' problem is the lengths they go to, not the fact that they exist.
4) The fact that Shepard can cash in on a necessary decision (like stopping Saren) does not make it any less necessary.
5) Actually, Paragon lets murder go unchecked, not Renegade - see also, Elnora and Fist.

[JockBuster]

Cheese Elemental wrote...

I don't play 'pure' Renegade. I go Paragon for the big decisions, like sparing the Rachni queen and advocating peace between the Quarians and Geth. You'll need all the allies you can get come ME3, especially if you destroy the Collector base.
I also never partake in pro-human dialogue or choices. It makes me feel bad. Remember, Renegade doesn't equal evil.

"I like this human, HE understands!"
"Me too."
Kicking a@@ & spilling merc blood is cool, occasionally a few innocents get killed (oops, sorry about that), but "getting the job done" IS Shepard's goal at any cost.

[Ulicus]

Full Paragon and Full Renegade are both pretty dumb (not to mention internally inconsistant, a lot of the time). Unfortunately, the game only really rewards that kind of behaviour. :S Paragade/Renegon aren't half as viable as they were in the first game, especially since the persuade score doesn't carry over into a NG+ (unlike in ME1, where my 'canon' playthrough was the fourth one with that particular Shepard).

But, even so... I don't think full Renegade is a full blown villian. They're just crappy people. Fun, for sure, but I can only play them for the LOLZ.

Modifié par Ulicus, 11 août 2010 - 02:34 .

[alienatedflea]

Optimystic_X wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

he is pretty close to a full blown villian in my opinion...he committed genocide of the rachni...he destroyed a cure for the genophage which could have made krogan strong and united again...he is racist against aliens and loves his fellow humans...he is all for a prohuman terrorist group called Cerberus...helps no one unless it benefits him...he allows murder to occur unchecked...renegade shep is a very good villian...while paragon shep is the hero...

You can justify all of those things.

1) He has no proof that the Rachni won't end up re-enslaved by the Reapers and used as extremely powerful shock troops again.
2) The krogan still aren't ready for the cure. Wrex is getting them there, but there are still lots of d!ckhead clans around, and if one of them gets the cure first then Urdnot is screwed and we're right back to the Rebellions.
3) There is nothing wrong with a "prohuman group" in and of itself. The STG are pro-Salarian and the Commandoes are pro-Asari. Cerberus' problem is the lengths they go to, not the fact that they exist.
4) The fact that Shepard can cash in on a necessary decision (like stopping Saren) does not make it any less necessary.
5) Actually, Paragon lets murder go unchecked, not Renegade - see also, Elnora and Fist.

1) we dont know if it was the reapers that enslaved/indoctorinate them..do we? the queen in ME1 said their song was whacky and not normally so they did things that they wouldnt normally do like start wars...i know the rachni was in the vision but that still does not justify committing a genocide...if you can justify a genocide then you would be (in a way) justify that what Hitler did in WW2 was "ok"
2) krogan is screwed and divided because of OUTSIDE intervention...the turians and Salarians are to blame for that...talk to mordin he feels awful about the genophage in his loyalty mission...and the Rebellions started when they colonized and killed off council races on other worlds...the krogan nuked their homeworld to h3ll...if anything krogan are just like humans but looks different...krogan are violent and loves to aggressively expand their terrorities...yet then again you rationalized that a genocide was "ok" so i dont know if im going to get my point across...
3) there is everything wrong with a pro-one species group that is MUTUALLY exclusive...STG and Turians fleet and the commandoes all work together because they are divisions of the council...and there a council race...Cerberus is like the Taliban while NATO is like the Council races including STG, Commandoes, and Turians navy...do you see a difference there?
4) i dont even know what that means...shep stop saren from destroying the galaxy man...how is that not a necessity? Paragon shep does stuff to help others out...renegade shep does stuff to benefit himself and his species...nothing more or less...
5) i forget who Elnora is and what happened to her/him...but fist? well my shep didnt let wrex in the crew when we confronted fist...he didnt die...and just if wrex was in the group and killed fist...fist had it coming...he was a bad man into some bad dealings...only a matter of time that he was going to get killed...so i dont see how renegade shep can be a "hero" and how he isnt a villian...

Modifié par alienatedflea, 11 août 2010 - 05:28 .

[Tyrant Wrex]

I played almost exclusively renegade on both my playthroughs of ME1 and ME2; I didn't play it simply for the sake of being renegade, I actually personally favored most of the renegade options in the game. But there were a few instances where I felt compelled to elect the paragon route, namely:



a. I saw no ethical or tactical impetus for killing the thorian infected colonists on Feros; you could just as easily incapacitate them with the neurotoxin grenade, and Sheperd's mission is to save humanity; killing them would not only be morally non-exonerable, but also asinine.



b. Killing Samara, a fundamentally good person (and, as it so happens, very much philosophically and operationally equatable to renegade Sheperd) is probably the most inherently evil and unconscionable action the player can make in the Mass Effect series. Saving a nihilistic psychopathic sadist serial murderer over a galactic champion of justice for sheer sexual gratification is just sick, and really does cast doubt upon full renegade Sheperd's heroism.



c. Assigning "renegade option" to saving the collector base is something that immediately struck me as bizarre and wholly inconsistent with the paragon-renegade dynamics established in ME1. In the first game, i was always the PARAGON action to save the abominable alien race or technology for further research, whether it be the thorian or the rachni, and it was the RENEGADE option to nuke that crap to hell so no one would ever be capable of meddling with it again as it nevershould have existed to begin with.



Not only does ME2 flip this rather sensible paradigm inexplicably on its head, somehow making utterly obliterating the opposition in nuclear fire the paragon action, but it also makes what in my opinion is the rather absurd implication of it being "renegade" to simply take orders like a hapless, servile lapdog from TIM and just do whatever he says, no matter how flagrant his manipulative, opportunistic puppetry of Sheperd and everyone else is. How is it NOT renegade to tell him off at the end, to inform him that you're in charge, not him? Why is it renegade to be this useless bureaucrat's pawn, to kowtow to this allegedly powerful and sophisticated organization which has time and time again been infiltrated, sabotaged and defeated, both by Sheperd himself in ME1 and others like Wilson in ME2?



I always thought the ultimate renegade action at the end of ME2 should have been to put TIM in his place. I guess not, good thing I'm not going for some superfluous 100% morality goal in either the paragon or renegade path.

[PWENEFIED]

Full blown renegade Shepard with scars= "Darth Shepard"



Will this post end this thread?

[PsyrenY]

alienatedflea wrote...

1) we dont know if it was the reapers that enslaved/indoctorinate them..do we? the queen in ME1 said their song was whacky and not normally so they did things that they wouldnt normally do like start wars...i know the rachni was in the vision but that still does not justify committing a genocide...if you can justify a genocide then you would be (in a way) justify that what Hitler did in WW2 was "ok"
2) krogan is screwed and divided because of OUTSIDE intervention...the turians and Salarians are to blame for that...talk to mordin he feels awful about the genophage in his loyalty mission...and the Rebellions started when they colonized and killed off council races on other worlds...the krogan nuked their homeworld to h3ll...if anything krogan are just like humans but looks different...krogan are violent and loves to aggressively expand their terrorities...yet then again you rationalized that a genocide was "ok" so i dont know if im going to get my point across...
3) there is everything wrong with a pro-one species group that is MUTUALLY exclusive...STG and Turians fleet and the commandoes all work together because they are divisions of the council...and there a council race...Cerberus is like the Taliban while NATO is like the Council races including STG, Commandoes, and Turians navy...do you see a difference there?
4) i dont even know what that means...shep stop saren from destroying the galaxy man...how is that not a necessity? Paragon shep does stuff to help others out...renegade shep does stuff to benefit himself and his species...nothing more or less...
5) i forget who Elnora is and what happened to her/him...but fist? well my shep didnt let wrex in the crew when we confronted fist...he didnt die...and just if wrex was in the group and killed fist...fist had it coming...he was a bad man into some bad dealings...only a matter of time that he was going to get killed...so i dont see how renegade shep can be a "hero" and how he isnt a villian...

1. The bloody Queen says it was the Reapers' fault on Ilium, in ME2. "You seek to battle those who soured the songs of our mothers." It is cut and dry.

2. The Genophage was not genocide; Mordin makes this clear.

3. Clearly Cerberus is not  "mutually exclusive" - or did you miss all the aliens on the Normandy? Or the fact that they pushed for the design of the original, which required cooperating with Turians? Or Miranda's comment on learning from Asari ingenuity on Ilium?
The only difference between Cerberus and the STG, Commandos etc. is that Cerberus is privately funded. That's it.

4. It means that just because Renegade Shepard personally benefits from performing an action that benefits the entire galaxy, does not make it stop benefitting the entire galaxy.

5. Elnora and Fist are murderers. The Paragon option is to let them both go. (The latter only if Wrex is not in the party when you confront him.) Therefore, it is the Renegade who does not let murderers go in those cases, contrary to what you said.

[Dean_the_Young]

I always have a weird look on my face whenever someone calls killing the Rachni Queen genocide.



The word genocide implies killing off an entire species, a multitude of living minds and beings. And strictly that, of living people: not of those not yet born and who may well never be, or else every death of a woman, and all her unborn descendents, and all their descendents, would be genocide as well, and make the crime so common as to be irrelevant.



But with the Rachni Queen you aren't killing of millions or thousands or even hundreds of living persons: you're killing one. At worst you could call that murder: then again, that's pretty low on the list of Spectre crimes that are considered as a matter of course for getting the job done. You kill more mercenaries on the average field trip than you kill people with the Rachni Queen decision.



The Rachni Queen is undeniably a unique existence. So was the Thorian. By killing either of them, you end the future possibilities for existence. But in and of themselves, they are still individuals. Calling it by the high crime of genocide really overdoes the implications.

[Aggie Punbot]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The word genocide implies killing off an entire species, a multitude of living minds and beings. And strictly that, of living people: not of those not yet born and who may well never be, or else every death of a woman, and all her unborn descendents, and all their descendents, would be genocide as well, and make the crime so common as to be irrelevant.

...what? No, that analogy is flawed. Genocide would mean killing every single existing human, not just one woman.

And yes, I believe it would be considered genocide because, as far as Shepard and team knows, the rachni queen is the absolute last of her kind that is able to breed (and aside from the rachni you have to purge shortly thereafter, the last of them all period).

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 11 août 2010 - 07:56 .

[krasnoarmeets]

The term 'hero' is subjective people.... it depends upon whose perspective you're looking at it from.
The people on the receiving end will see the victor's hero as a villain more often than not.

It's a simple matter of perspective.

alienatedflea wrote...

he is pretty close to a full blown
villian in my opinion...he committed genocide of the rachni...he
destroyed a cure for the genophage which could have made krogan strong
and united again...he is racist against aliens and loves his fellow
humans...he is all for a prohuman terrorist group called
Cerberus...helps no one unless it benefits him...he allows murder to
occur unchecked...renegade shep is a very good villian...while paragon
shep is the hero...

You destroy Saren's cure for the genophage in all scenarios whether you are paragon or renegade - that is an invalid argument. Also, Cerberus would see renegade Shep as their hero, just as Terra Firma would likely see a militantly racist Shep as their hero. Actually, the renegade Shep decisions are 'bigger picture' type decisions. They can all be justified as being for the greater good if you care to. He is after all running around the galaxy chasing bad robots because they threaten all  life. The end sometimes does justify the means.

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 11 août 2010 - 08:09 .

[Cra5y Pineapple]

Not close at all. Ash and Wrex aren't villains and their just as bad.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And the other half is trying not to be slapped for using 80's cartoon catch phrases.

I thought the other half was shooting people what else haven't I been told

[krasnoarmeets]

Doh, busted. We've been hiding soooo many things from you...

[Sajuro]

I don't think he'll become a villain rather a renegade Shepard will probably end up becoming a tragic hero, dying as the result of his arrogance and/or dickishness.

[Sajuro]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Doh, busted. We've been hiding soooo many things from you...

Ah damn.

[KainrycKarr]

Haven't seen Shep do anything villainous. The bit with Vido can be seen as simply putting the mission before all else, which is the definition of renegade.



Other than that...he's really just a jerk, that's all.

[Dean_the_Young]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The word genocide implies killing off an entire species, a multitude of living minds and beings. And strictly that, of living people: not of those not yet born and who may well never be, or else every death of a woman, and all her unborn descendents, and all their descendents, would be genocide as well, and make the crime so common as to be irrelevant.

...what? No, that analogy is flawed. Genocide would mean killing every single existing human, not just one woman.

Not by most legal definitions of what composes genocide, including the UN's many variations. Genocide doesn't need to be total to be considered such.

And yes, I believe it would be considered genocide because, as far as Shepard and team knows, the rachni queen is the absolute last of her kind that is able to breed (and aside from the rachni you have to purge shortly thereafter, the last of them all period).

Unless you decide to count unborn descendents as living specimens, which opens  up the matter of women in general, killing the Rachni Queen is only killing one individual.

Purging the rest of the wild Rachni as well, if you choose to do that, that has grounds of being condemned as the total genocide of the species. But the individual Rachni Queen is just that: individual.

[KainrycKarr]

alienatedflea wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

he is pretty close to a full blown villian in my opinion...he committed genocide of the rachni...he destroyed a cure for the genophage which could have made krogan strong and united again...he is racist against aliens and loves his fellow humans...he is all for a prohuman terrorist group called Cerberus...helps no one unless it benefits him...he allows murder to occur unchecked...renegade shep is a very good villian...while paragon shep is the hero...

You can justify all of those things.

1) He has no proof that the Rachni won't end up re-enslaved by the Reapers and used as extremely powerful shock troops again.
2) The krogan still aren't ready for the cure. Wrex is getting them there, but there are still lots of d!ckhead clans around, and if one of them gets the cure first then Urdnot is screwed and we're right back to the Rebellions.
3) There is nothing wrong with a "prohuman group" in and of itself. The STG are pro-Salarian and the Commandoes are pro-Asari. Cerberus' problem is the lengths they go to, not the fact that they exist.
4) The fact that Shepard can cash in on a necessary decision (like stopping Saren) does not make it any less necessary.
5) Actually, Paragon lets murder go unchecked, not Renegade - see also, Elnora and Fist.

1) we dont know if it was the reapers that enslaved/indoctorinate them..do we? the queen in ME1 said their song was whacky and not normally so they did things that they wouldnt normally do like start wars...i know the rachni was in the vision but that still does not justify committing a genocide...if you can justify a genocide then you would be (in a way) justify that what Hitler did in WW2 was "ok"
2) krogan is screwed and divided because of OUTSIDE intervention...the turians and Salarians are to blame for that...talk to mordin he feels awful about the genophage in his loyalty mission...and the Rebellions started when they colonized and killed off council races on other worlds...the krogan nuked their homeworld to h3ll...if anything krogan are just like humans but looks different...krogan are violent and loves to aggressively expand their terrorities...yet then again you rationalized that a genocide was "ok" so i dont know if im going to get my point across...
3) there is everything wrong with a pro-one species group that is MUTUALLY exclusive...STG and Turians fleet and the commandoes all work together because they are divisions of the council...and there a council race...Cerberus is like the Taliban while NATO is like the Council races including STG, Commandoes, and Turians navy...do you see a difference there?
4) i dont even know what that means...shep stop saren from destroying the galaxy man...how is that not a necessity? Paragon shep does stuff to help others out...renegade shep does stuff to benefit himself and his species...nothing more or less...
5) i forget who Elnora is and what happened to her/him...but fist? well my shep didnt let wrex in the crew when we confronted fist...he didnt die...and just if wrex was in the group and killed fist...fist had it coming...he was a bad man into some bad dealings...only a matter of time that he was going to get killed...so i dont see how renegade shep can be a "hero" and how he isnt a villian...

...How do you not understand?

Taken in context, those actions can all be justified militarily. You're looking at it from a player perspective; you need to look at it from story perspective.

The rachni were responsible for massive destruction on a galactic scale; the only thing you know of reapers at this point is some visions. That isn't enough militarily to justify letting the rachni off the hook.

The Krogan were responsible for their actions; look at their own planet. The Turians and Salarians are merely guilty of exposing those actions to the rest of the galaxy.

The groups mentioned are, ultimately, race-first, as well they should be. The difference between them and Cerberus, is that Cerberus is not authorized and are taken to the extremes. But the basic idea of a human-first defensive special ops group is quite reasonable.

If you think that in real life, ALL government spec ops groups work together as one big happy family, you are sadly mistaken. They are, ultimately nation-first. However, the goals of these types of organizations are usually mutual, so you don't see it as nation-first, unless those nations are directly at war or cold-war with each other.
Cerberus is wrong in the sense that they are acting, unauthorized, as though humanity is in a cold war with the rest of the galaxy.

Elnora and fist are both guilty of murder, and guilty of allowing murder, respectively. Paragon shepard lets this go unpunished.

And renegade Shep does things both for personal gain, and for the good of the galaxy. He stops Saren just as much as paragon Shep does.

The means to the end are very different, but the end remains the same.

[Shadow_broker]

It's a video game, If you pick the "evil" or renegade option it won''t give a better overall happy ending (when has it ever?)

If you play "good" or paragon everyone lives hapilly ever after



RENEGADES FAIL

[KainrycKarr]

It's not about that. It's about roleplaying. You are playing the role of an individual finding a way to save the galaxy from the reapers. In the case of a renegade, you are opting to be a ruthless or fast-results worse-outcome person in some instances...it's about how you handle the road to the end, not the end itself.

Who the hell wants to be another goody two-shoes, or be another pure ****? I prefer to be a real person, and choose the solution situation by situation, not by a meter on the menu.

paragade ftw.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 11 août 2010 - 11:35 .

[hamtyl07]

villian how about pure **** at least a villian is charming there aint notthing charming about taking the renegade path

[hamtyl07]

hamtyl07 wrote...

villian how about pure as*hole at least a villian is charming there aint notthing charming about taking the renegade path

[alienatedflea]

Optimystic_X wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

1) we dont know if it was the reapers that enslaved/indoctorinate them..do we? the queen in ME1 said their song was whacky and not normally so they did things that they wouldnt normally do like start wars...i know the rachni was in the vision but that still does not justify committing a genocide...if you can justify a genocide then you would be (in a way) justify that what Hitler did in WW2 was "ok"
2) krogan is screwed and divided because of OUTSIDE intervention...the turians and Salarians are to blame for that...talk to mordin he feels awful about the genophage in his loyalty mission...and the Rebellions started when they colonized and killed off council races on other worlds...the krogan nuked their homeworld to h3ll...if anything krogan are just like humans but looks different...krogan are violent and loves to aggressively expand their terrorities...yet then again you rationalized that a genocide was "ok" so i dont know if im going to get my point across...
3) there is everything wrong with a pro-one species group that is MUTUALLY exclusive...STG and Turians fleet and the commandoes all work together because they are divisions of the council...and there a council race...Cerberus is like the Taliban while NATO is like the Council races including STG, Commandoes, and Turians navy...do you see a difference there?
4) i dont even know what that means...shep stop saren from destroying the galaxy man...how is that not a necessity? Paragon shep does stuff to help others out...renegade shep does stuff to benefit himself and his species...nothing more or less...
5) i forget who Elnora is and what happened to her/him...but fist? well my shep didnt let wrex in the crew when we confronted fist...he didnt die...and just if wrex was in the group and killed fist...fist had it coming...he was a bad man into some bad dealings...only a matter of time that he was going to get killed...so i dont see how renegade shep can be a "hero" and how he isnt a villian...

1. The bloody Queen says it was the Reapers' fault on Ilium, in ME2. "You seek to battle those who soured the songs of our mothers." It is cut and dry.

2. The Genophage was not genocide; Mordin makes this clear.

3. Clearly Cerberus is not  "mutually exclusive" - or did you miss all the aliens on the Normandy? Or the fact that they pushed for the design of the original, which required cooperating with Turians? Or Miranda's comment on learning from Asari ingenuity on Ilium?
The only difference between Cerberus and the STG, Commandos etc. is that Cerberus is privately funded. That's it.

4. It means that just because Renegade Shepard personally benefits from performing an action that benefits the entire galaxy, does not make it stop benefitting the entire galaxy.

5. Elnora and Fist are murderers. The Paragon option is to let them both go. (The latter only if Wrex is not in the party when you confront him.) Therefore, it is the Renegade who does not let murderers go in those cases, contrary to what you said.

1) you still justify committing a genocide on the rachni...some people can be bad in the past but not so terrible in the present...(example: Jack, Zazead)
2) i never said that the genophage is a genocide...im saying ren shep destroys a possible cure for the krogan's genophage that would make them strong again and they MIGHT actually not cause a war with the council again bc they are not dumb...they dont want the genophage...in my opinion the genophage is a morally questionable decision at best...
3) there is aliens on the Normandy 2..so? that doesnt mean they are mutually exclusive organization...STG, commandoes, and the Turians fleet work together to help guard and protect Council space...Spectres are for situations which require special involvement...they are not held accountable for their acts while the other 3 organizations are...and the orginal normandy was built under the Alliance...not Cerberus...and Cerberus is an PROHUMAN agenda group...if any other aliens get in their way...they have no problems killing innocent individuals to get their way...heck they dont even really care about their own employees (look at all their f*cked up experiments)
4) are you telling me that ren shep really cares about the entire galaxy? NEWS FLASH: he doesnt...he is saving the only person that matters to him...which is himself...if he happens to save the galaxy as a side effect then so be...more power and fame for him...lord knows that he is power starving...
5) there is a phrase you should know..."two wrongs do not make it right" you dont kill a person who has killed countless others because then you are no better than they are...and i am sure you heard of a phrase " justice for all"? that includes murderers, rapists, and etc....AND you dont find out that Elnora is a murderer until after you let her go because you find the audio clip of her bragging about it...so thats a really weak arguement...

[KainrycKarr]

alienatedflea wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

1) we dont know if it was the reapers that enslaved/indoctorinate them..do we? the queen in ME1 said their song was whacky and not normally so they did things that they wouldnt normally do like start wars...i know the rachni was in the vision but that still does not justify committing a genocide...if you can justify a genocide then you would be (in a way) justify that what Hitler did in WW2 was "ok"
2) krogan is screwed and divided because of OUTSIDE intervention...the turians and Salarians are to blame for that...talk to mordin he feels awful about the genophage in his loyalty mission...and the Rebellions started when they colonized and killed off council races on other worlds...the krogan nuked their homeworld to h3ll...if anything krogan are just like humans but looks different...krogan are violent and loves to aggressively expand their terrorities...yet then again you rationalized that a genocide was "ok" so i dont know if im going to get my point across...
3) there is everything wrong with a pro-one species group that is MUTUALLY exclusive...STG and Turians fleet and the commandoes all work together because they are divisions of the council...and there a council race...Cerberus is like the Taliban while NATO is like the Council races including STG, Commandoes, and Turians navy...do you see a difference there?
4) i dont even know what that means...shep stop saren from destroying the galaxy man...how is that not a necessity? Paragon shep does stuff to help others out...renegade shep does stuff to benefit himself and his species...nothing more or less...
5) i forget who Elnora is and what happened to her/him...but fist? well my shep didnt let wrex in the crew when we confronted fist...he didnt die...and just if wrex was in the group and killed fist...fist had it coming...he was a bad man into some bad dealings...only a matter of time that he was going to get killed...so i dont see how renegade shep can be a "hero" and how he isnt a villian...

1. The bloody Queen says it was the Reapers' fault on Ilium, in ME2. "You seek to battle those who soured the songs of our mothers." It is cut and dry.

2. The Genophage was not genocide; Mordin makes this clear.

3. Clearly Cerberus is not  "mutually exclusive" - or did you miss all the aliens on the Normandy? Or the fact that they pushed for the design of the original, which required cooperating with Turians? Or Miranda's comment on learning from Asari ingenuity on Ilium?
The only difference between Cerberus and the STG, Commandos etc. is that Cerberus is privately funded. That's it.

4. It means that just because Renegade Shepard personally benefits from performing an action that benefits the entire galaxy, does not make it stop benefitting the entire galaxy.

5. Elnora and Fist are murderers. The Paragon option is to let them both go. (The latter only if Wrex is not in the party when you confront him.) Therefore, it is the Renegade who does not let murderers go in those cases, contrary to what you said.

1) you still justify committing a genocide on the rachni...some people can be bad in the past but not so terrible in the present...(example: Jack, Zazead)
2) i never said that the genophage is a genocide...im saying ren shep destroys a possible cure for the krogan's genophage that would make them strong again and they MIGHT actually not cause a war with the council again bc they are not dumb...they dont want the genophage...in my opinion the genophage is a morally questionable decision at best...
3) there is aliens on the Normandy 2..so? that doesnt mean they are mutually exclusive organization...STG, commandoes, and the Turians fleet work together to help guard and protect Council space...Spectres are for situations which require special involvement...they are not held accountable for their acts while the other 3 organizations are...and the orginal normandy was built under the Alliance...not Cerberus...and Cerberus is an PROHUMAN agenda group...if any other aliens get in their way...they have no problems killing innocent individuals to get their way...heck they dont even really care about their own employees (look at all their f*cked up experiments)
4) are you telling me that ren shep really cares about the entire galaxy? NEWS FLASH: he doesnt...he is saving the only person that matters to him...which is himself...if he happens to save the galaxy as a side effect then so be...more power and fame for him...lord knows that he is power starving...
5) there is a phrase you should know..."two wrongs do not make it right" you dont kill a person who has killed countless others because then you are no better than they are...and i am sure you heard of a phrase " justice for all"? that includes murderers, rapists, and etc....AND you dont find out that Elnora is a murderer until after you let her go because you find the audio clip of her bragging about it...so thats a really weak arguement...

For the love of god, use spaces.

Jack and Zaeed constantly try to kill people on a whim through the game. What the hell are you talking about?

And might? Might doesn't match up what they DID do, in a court of law.(Krograns)

And Cerberus? Did you even read what I wrote? I SAID they were ILLEGAL. But the other organizations - they are race-first whether you like it or not. If an STG team must choose between helping/assisting Salararians, or a human, they WILL choose their own race. That's common sense. It's nature. It's how things work.

Being nation-first or race-first does NOT qualify villainy; it's basic survival. It doesn't mean you hate or actively fight/kill other nations/races. it just means that the overal goal is the protection and progress of their own race/nation. Which is perfectly acceptable.

Do you even know what this argument is about? It isn't whether what renegade Shepard does is the best response or not.

It's whether or not those actions constitue villainy.

Preventing a race that caused galaxy-wide destruction and mayhem by not allowing them to return - genocide? yes. But in this context, it's the most sound decision, militarily. A little extreme, but not villainous.

Working with a criminal organization to stop a threat that affects an entire race of beings? Given the fact that the organizations within the law are unwilling or unable to help, this is a necessary evil to prevent a much greater threat. NOT villainy.

And you point to not knowing Elnora's guilt/innocence until after the face; I reiterate from earlier. With the rachni, you have no idea, no proof whatsoever that the Rachni acted on any will other than their own. The word of the queen is nothing more than that; her word. Anyone being threatened at gun point will say whatever they think will keep them alive.

Renegade Shepard is a dick, a jerk, extreme, brutal, ruthless, misguided, but he is not a villain.