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[alienatedflea]

KainrycKarr wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

he is pretty close to a full blown villian in my opinion...he committed genocide of the rachni...he destroyed a cure for the genophage which could have made krogan strong and united again...he is racist against aliens and loves his fellow humans...he is all for a prohuman terrorist group called Cerberus...helps no one unless it benefits him...he allows murder to occur unchecked...renegade shep is a very good villian...while paragon shep is the hero...

You can justify all of those things.

1) He has no proof that the Rachni won't end up re-enslaved by the Reapers and used as extremely powerful shock troops again.
2) The krogan still aren't ready for the cure. Wrex is getting them there, but there are still lots of d!ckhead clans around, and if one of them gets the cure first then Urdnot is screwed and we're right back to the Rebellions.
3) There is nothing wrong with a "prohuman group" in and of itself. The STG are pro-Salarian and the Commandoes are pro-Asari. Cerberus' problem is the lengths they go to, not the fact that they exist.
4) The fact that Shepard can cash in on a necessary decision (like stopping Saren) does not make it any less necessary.
5) Actually, Paragon lets murder go unchecked, not Renegade - see also, Elnora and Fist.

1) we dont know if it was the reapers that enslaved/indoctorinate them..do we? the queen in ME1 said their song was whacky and not normally so they did things that they wouldnt normally do like start wars...i know the rachni was in the vision but that still does not justify committing a genocide...if you can justify a genocide then you would be (in a way) justify that what Hitler did in WW2 was "ok"
2) krogan is screwed and divided because of OUTSIDE intervention...the turians and Salarians are to blame for that...talk to mordin he feels awful about the genophage in his loyalty mission...and the Rebellions started when they colonized and killed off council races on other worlds...the krogan nuked their homeworld to h3ll...if anything krogan are just like humans but looks different...krogan are violent and loves to aggressively expand their terrorities...yet then again you rationalized that a genocide was "ok" so i dont know if im going to get my point across...
3) there is everything wrong with a pro-one species group that is MUTUALLY exclusive...STG and Turians fleet and the commandoes all work together because they are divisions of the council...and there a council race...Cerberus is like the Taliban while NATO is like the Council races including STG, Commandoes, and Turians navy...do you see a difference there?
4) i dont even know what that means...shep stop saren from destroying the galaxy man...how is that not a necessity? Paragon shep does stuff to help others out...renegade shep does stuff to benefit himself and his species...nothing more or less...
5) i forget who Elnora is and what happened to her/him...but fist? well my shep didnt let wrex in the crew when we confronted fist...he didnt die...and just if wrex was in the group and killed fist...fist had it coming...he was a bad man into some bad dealings...only a matter of time that he was going to get killed...so i dont see how renegade shep can be a "hero" and how he isnt a villian...

...How do you not understand?

Taken in context, those actions can all be justified militarily. You're looking at it from a player perspective; you need to look at it from story perspective.

The rachni were responsible for massive destruction on a galactic scale; the only thing you know of reapers at this point is some visions. That isn't enough militarily to justify letting the rachni off the hook.

The Krogan were responsible for their actions; look at their own planet. The Turians and Salarians are merely guilty of exposing those actions to the rest of the galaxy.

The groups mentioned are, ultimately, race-first, as well they should be. The difference between them and Cerberus, is that Cerberus is not authorized and are taken to the extremes. But the basic idea of a human-first defensive special ops group is quite reasonable.

If you think that in real life, ALL government spec ops groups work together as one big happy family, you are sadly mistaken. They are, ultimately nation-first. However, the goals of these types of organizations are usually mutual, so you don't see it as nation-first, unless those nations are directly at war or cold-war with each other.
Cerberus is wrong in the sense that they are acting, unauthorized, as though humanity is in a cold war with the rest of the galaxy.

Elnora and fist are both guilty of murder, and guilty of allowing murder, respectively. Paragon shepard lets this go unpunished.

And renegade Shep does things both for personal gain, and for the good of the galaxy. He stops Saren just as much as paragon Shep does.

The means to the end are very different, but the end remains the same.

ok youre right the rachni did alot of damage and grief...so did the krogan...i guess if we had it youre way...wrex wouldnt be in the game because we shouldve wiped them out too...and most of the people in the game wouldnt be in the game because the turians and the salarians caused a ton of damage to the krogan so we should wipe them out too right? or is it now fair to pick on one alien race because they saved the dang galaxy from the rachni? but either way...you are rationalizing a genocide...the rachni was indoctorinated...they were NOT doing that under free will to cause all that damage...if they did it willingly then we should punish them sure...but to wipe them off the face of the galaxy is too much even for the miltary...with the organizations you fail to see that the STG, Commandoes, and the Turian's Fleets work in coordination with each other...for example the first (in my game) of STG is when the Council tells you that there were STG groups to recon Citadel Space to find Saren...they tell shep that the STG along with the Spectres are "arms" of the Council...while Cerberus is a lone wolf organization which means they work by themselves and they do not recieve/give help to any other alien race unless its to advance their pro human agenda...
"If you think that in real life, ALL government spec ops groups work together as one big happy family, you are sadly mistaken. They are, ultimately nation-first. However, the goals of these types of organizations are usually mutual, so you don't see it as nation-first"
that is what the STG, Commandoes, and the Turian Fleet are...they work together...but for different situations...while Cerberus is privately owned and operated by TIM's shareholders...but where Cerberus still had the "you're either with us or against us" mindframe which is how most terrorist groups work under...

Modifié par alienatedflea, 12 août 2010 - 03:34 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Thou shalt learn to use commas, periods, and capitalization properly before you can expect to be taken seriously. As it is, you have a wall of blob text.

[KainrycKarr]

Overgeneralizing doesn't validate your argument; it makes you an idiot.

The Krogans WEREN'T wiped out; they were contained. NOT genocide. That does NOT make the genophage morally right, but it makes it a valid military decision.

And for the nth time, you, as Shepard, have NO proof that the rachni were indoctrinated. Only you, the player, know.

Cerberus DOES work with others. What are Garrus, Mordin, Tali, Samara, Grunt, Thane, and the others? Cerberus doesn't work with the council, because they are extreme, and because they don't have the AUTHORITY to. They are privately funded and operated.

Of course the STG/commandos work for the council. The Asari/Salarians ARE the council.

Cerberus doesn't have a with us or against us mindframe. They have an isolationist mindframe, similiar to medieval Japan.

Again, nothing in your argument validates any of these things/actions, in the context of the story, as villainy.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 12 août 2010 - 03:43 .

[Shadow_broker]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Overgeneralizing doesn't validate your argument; it makes you an idiot.

The Krogans WEREN'T wiped out; they were contained. NOT genocide. That does NOT make the genophage morally right, but it makes it a valid military decision.

And for the nth time, you, as Shepard, have NO proof that the rachni were indoctrinated. Only you, the player, know.

Cerberus DOES work with others. What are Garrus, Mordin, Tali, Samara, Grunt, Thane, and the others? Cerberus doesn't work with the council, because they are extreme, and because they don't have the AUTHORITY to. They are privately funded and operated.

Of course the STG/commandos work for the council. The Asari/Salarians ARE the council.

Cerberus doesn't have a with us or against us mindframe. They have an isolationist mindframe, similiar to medieval Japan.

Again, nothing in your argument validates any of these things/actions, in the context of the story, as villainy.

You sir are a douche!

Cerebrus is clearly being setup to be very evil (unless you don't count tortue,murder, and kidnpping/slave trade evil) And once the Ilusive man comic comes out there will most likley be no denying it.
And the Krogan are very likley to be wiped out be the genophage, Wrex is really the races only hope to live with the genophage.

[KainrycKarr]

Shadow_broker wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Overgeneralizing doesn't validate your argument; it makes you an idiot.

The Krogans WEREN'T wiped out; they were contained. NOT genocide. That does NOT make the genophage morally right, but it makes it a valid military decision.

And for the nth time, you, as Shepard, have NO proof that the rachni were indoctrinated. Only you, the player, know.

Cerberus DOES work with others. What are Garrus, Mordin, Tali, Samara, Grunt, Thane, and the others? Cerberus doesn't work with the council, because they are extreme, and because they don't have the AUTHORITY to. They are privately funded and operated.

Of course the STG/commandos work for the council. The Asari/Salarians ARE the council.

Cerberus doesn't have a with us or against us mindframe. They have an isolationist mindframe, similiar to medieval Japan.

Again, nothing in your argument validates any of these things/actions, in the context of the story, as villainy.

You sir are a douche!

Cerebrus is clearly being setup to be very evil (unless you don't count tortue,murder, and kidnpping/slave trade evil) And once the Ilusive man comic comes out there will most likley be no denying it.
And the Krogan are very likley to be wiped out be the genophage, Wrex is really the races only hope to live with the genophage.

no, the Illusive Man is being setup to be evil.
I didn't say the means that Cerberus uses are okay. I said that the bottomline goal; preservation and advancement of  the human race, IS okay. And it is. Because they are human .Who wouldn't want to preserve and advance their own race?

[PsyrenY]

Alienated... I really want to have a proper discussion with you, but your posts are just unbelievably difficult to read. Can you please format them properly if you want to have this conversation? Use spaces, line breaks and proper punctuation, please...

[KainrycKarr]

So far the arguments for Renegade Shepard being a villain are; blobs of text, and "You sir are a douche"!



kudos, gentlemen.

[Shadow_broker]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Overgeneralizing doesn't validate your argument; it makes you an idiot.

The Krogans WEREN'T wiped out; they were contained. NOT genocide. That does NOT make the genophage morally right, but it makes it a valid military decision.

And for the nth time, you, as Shepard, have NO proof that the rachni were indoctrinated. Only you, the player, know.

Cerberus DOES work with others. What are Garrus, Mordin, Tali, Samara, Grunt, Thane, and the others? Cerberus doesn't work with the council, because they are extreme, and because they don't have the AUTHORITY to. They are privately funded and operated.

Of course the STG/commandos work for the council. The Asari/Salarians ARE the council.

Cerberus doesn't have a with us or against us mindframe. They have an isolationist mindframe, similiar to medieval Japan.

Again, nothing in your argument validates any of these things/actions, in the context of the story, as villainy.

You sir are a douche!

Cerebrus is clearly being setup to be very evil (unless you don't count tortue,murder, and kidnpping/slave trade evil) And once the Ilusive man comic comes out there will most likley be no denying it.
And the Krogan are very likley to be wiped out be the genophage, Wrex is really the races only hope to live with the genophage.

no, the Illusive Man is being setup to be evil.
I didn't say the means that Cerberus uses are okay. I said that the bottomline goal; preservation and advancement of  the human race, IS okay. And it is. Because they are human .Who wouldn't want to preserve and advance their own race?

If Humanity wants to be part of the galatic community we need to look further than our own advancment, Aliens hate us enough cerebrus isn't helping.
All races that have gained power on the council have given something to contribute to make the universe a better place for all even if the council itself does use beuacry to avoid conflict at all cost. Humans on the other hand rush in take what we want and possibly become head of the council at a great cost of the citadel fleet.

Humanity will only be hurting ourselves in the long run by seizing power of the council and eventually the galaxy

[Shadow_broker]

KainrycKarr wrote...

So far the arguments for Renegade Shepard being a villain are; blobs of text, and "You sir are a douche"!

kudos, gentlemen.

You being a douche is in no way related to the arguement of renegade shepard being a villian, I was simply
stating you are a douche on a side note

Your such a douche BTW

[alienatedflea]

can you read? i didnt say anything about a genocide ABOUT the krogan...i did say however that you see no problems with a genocide on the rachni...and they say they were indoctrinated when they talked about their songs on Noveria through the dead asari where you and your squadmates heard the queen's story...ren shep commits a crime of committing genocide and killing a defenseless individual...and you say that nearly sterlizing a species is deemed miltarily "ok"...which just makes you look delusional...no species deserves that..yes yes you get it...they are part of the council and humans now are on the council so we would have something like the other organizations but just humans...so we all work together...but NOT Cerberus...they are a terrorist group...but you sir have a twisted view of villiany...and btw before you continue your rant in defense of your ren shep...look up the RULES OF ENGAGEMENT and other documents of war for war crimes...ren shep allows murder...genocide...total disgard for anything but himself...but its ok...you say its what the player  knows...but this is RPG ><

[alienatedflea]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Alienated... I really want to have a proper discussion with you, but your posts are just unbelievably difficult to read. Can you please format them properly if you want to have this conversation? Use spaces, line breaks and proper punctuation, please...

RAWR...ok fine grammar police!
Reasons why ren shep is a villian in the ME trilogy:
1) ren shep allows genocide.  How is Shep any better than Hitler in just that point.  In Noveria, He decides to kill the last remaining Rachni Queen with no remorse.  The queen tells Shep their story of how their songs were corrupt for some reason and just wants to live in peace. 
2) destroys the genophage cure on Mordin's loyalty mission which was probably the key to making the krogan strong and united and to say we can see what they did in the past is an indication of the future is BS because people can change...
3) Helps no one but himself unless by helping someone else makes it benetifal to him...
4) Ren Shep sides with Cerberus...Cerberus is a dangerous group that has done some sick experiments and believes that humans should take charge of the galaxy...if you just look at how we are doing on Earth today...that would be the last thing the galaxy needs
5) Ren shep is the spectres' motto down like a fine art, "at any cost"...if he thought by getting his whole squad plus his mother killed was a good idea so he can finish the mission, he would.  He kills people with no remorse for example look at Thane's loyalty mission, shep even says "hostage crisis only work when you care about preserving life." (something along those lines...not sure)

If those reasons do make him a bad guy then i don't know what is bad then. 

[MrCasperTom]

Whenever I play these types of games I tend to make choices as if I were in that position I.E. what would I do if I had to make that choice.

At the end of the day if you play purely for renegade then you do just come out as a knob with no real justification for your reasons. But the latter bit could be applied to a full paragon.

Now my FemShep play through on ME2 ended with a full paragon meter at the end but also a nearly half filled renegade one.

I think there are several choices in the game where being a renegage makes sense and most of the reasons can be justified. At the end of the day the thread shows that one action can be seen in many different ways, whether justified or not.

1) The renegade interupts, such as Miranda's loyalty mission or Mordin's loyalty mission make sense in my opinion. The quick taking out of many of the mercs and the Krogan speaker make sense in a tactical approach; you're getting rid of threats as quickly as possible before they can react.
2) Saving the collectors base, eradicating the geth heretics instead of re-writing, killing the rachni all of that can be justified. You're saving the technology for the fight against the repears, getting rid of the chance of the new memories being harmful to the geth as a whole and not taking a chance that the rachni might follow the same path.

I destroyed the collector base as I believe that TIM would utilise it in the wrong way as well as only using it to secure human dominance in the galaxy after the reapers were gone, re-wrote the geth (although this was actually a difficult choice for myself for the reasons stated above with the renegade option) as more geth versus the repears is a good think and saved the rachni as I believed they deserved a second chance.

3)I think it's when the renegade dialouge options come into play that create the **** idea. In some cases it just seems pointless ot say what they do in the situation and entirely detrimental to Shepard's cause.

I think overall a renegade Shepard just does it no nonsense and gets the job done without the general care of what happens to those in the Commander's way. This doesn't make it a bad thing, but more just not giving a crap if the jobs done. The ends justify the means seem to work here.

I think overall it's quite cleverly done in that even the players of the game sit there arguing over if said action was justified or worth doing so. I think it just comes down to your interpretation of the action.

[MrCasperTom]

alienatedflea wrote...
RAWR...ok fine grammar police!
Reasons why ren shep is a villian in the ME trilogy:
1) ren shep allows genocide.  How is Shep any better than Hitler in just that point.  In Noveria, He decides to kill the last remaining Rachni Queen with no remorse.  The queen tells Shep their story of how their songs were corrupt for some reason and just wants to live in peace. 

But surely anyone would say that. If you're threatened with being killed you would say anything to be kept alive. It is similar to torture; innocent people can be made to say that they are guilty purely because they no longer want it to go on. They say anything to avoid their fate, even though that fate is most likely going to be death.

Shepard could choose to do that because he didn't believe the Queen was being truthful and was merely choosing to say that in order to live but would then go on to kill again.

alienatedflea wrote...2) destroys the genophage cure on Mordin's loyalty mission which was probably the key to making the krogan strong and united and to say we can see what they did in the past is an indication of the future is BS because people can change...

Yes but Mordin himself says that the Krogan aren't ready to be cured. Sure they are on the way and a cure could be found later on. Data that is gone can also be re-created; that is stated by Mordin and one of the quarian Admirals. It seems the practical approach until the Krogan are ready to be cured.

alienatedflea wrote...3) Helps no one but himself unless by helping someone else makes it benetifal to him...

When you're saving the galaxy helping an old woman carry her bags back to her house just to be nice isn't the best idea. Also the fact is many of the people asking for help have their own motives as they want Shepard to do something for them. That's the point.

alienatedflea wrote...4) Ren Shep sides with Cerberus...Cerberus is a dangerous group that has done some sick experiments and believes that humans should take charge of the galaxy...if you just look at how we are doing on Earth today...that would be the last thing the galaxy needs

Cerberus are the only ones doing something to face the reapers though. It is the logical choice and if their methods work then it doesn't matter. Plus Shepard is human and might want to elevate their race to the greatest position of strength. Many members of other races do the same. The Commander is still saving the galaxy.

alienatedflea wrote...5) Ren shep is the spectres' motto down like a fine art, "at any cost"...if he thought by getting his whole squad plus his mother killed was a good idea so he can finish the mission, he would.  He kills people with no remorse for example look at Thane's loyalty mission, shep even says "hostage crisis only work when you care about preserving life." (something along those lines...not sure)

But you can be renegade and still save you squad. Sure he kills people to get the job done but many, many people believe that the end justifies the means. Simple as. If the job is done but their is collateral less people will care because the aim has been done. And you die if all your squad is killed so surely that Shepard is just an idiot. Renegade Shepard isn't automatically an idiot.

[alienatedflea]

MrCasperTom wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...
RAWR...ok fine grammar police!
Reasons why ren shep is a villian in the ME trilogy:
1) ren shep allows genocide.  How is Shep any better than Hitler in just that point.  In Noveria, He decides to kill the last remaining Rachni Queen with no remorse.  The queen tells Shep their story of how their songs were corrupt for some reason and just wants to live in peace. 

But surely anyone would say that. If you're threatened with being killed you would say anything to be kept alive. It is similar to torture; innocent people can be made to say that they are guilty purely because they no longer want it to go on. They say anything to avoid their fate, even though that fate is most likely going to be death.

Shepard could choose to do that because he didn't believe the Queen was being truthful and was merely choosing to say that in order to live but would then go on to kill again.

alienatedflea wrote...2) destroys the genophage cure on Mordin's loyalty mission which was probably the key to making the krogan strong and united and to say we can see what they did in the past is an indication of the future is BS because people can change...

Yes but Mordin himself says that the Krogan aren't ready to be cured. Sure they are on the way and a cure could be found later on. Data that is gone can also be re-created; that is stated by Mordin and one of the quarian Admirals. It seems the practical approach until the Krogan are ready to be cured.

alienatedflea wrote...3) Helps no one but himself unless by helping someone else makes it benetifal to him...

When you're saving the galaxy helping an old woman carry her bags back to her house just to be nice isn't the best idea. Also the fact is many of the people asking for help have their own motives as they want Shepard to do something for them. That's the point.

alienatedflea wrote...4) Ren Shep sides with Cerberus...Cerberus is a dangerous group that has done some sick experiments and believes that humans should take charge of the galaxy...if you just look at how we are doing on Earth today...that would be the last thing the galaxy needs

Cerberus are the only ones doing something to face the reapers though. It is the logical choice and if their methods work then it doesn't matter. Plus Shepard is human and might want to elevate their race to the greatest position of strength. Many members of other races do the same. The Commander is still saving the galaxy.

alienatedflea wrote...5) Ren shep is the spectres' motto down like a fine art, "at any cost"...if he thought by getting his whole squad plus his mother killed was a good idea so he can finish the mission, he would.  He kills people with no remorse for example look at Thane's loyalty mission, shep even says "hostage crisis only work when you care about preserving life." (something along those lines...not sure)

But you can be renegade and still save you squad. Sure he kills people to get the job done but many, many people believe that the end justifies the means. Simple as. If the job is done but their is collateral less people will care because the aim has been done. And you die if all your squad is killed so surely that Shepard is just an idiot. Renegade Shepard isn't automatically an idiot.

ok, let me put it this way.  Genocide is never "ok"! Sure, rachni did some messed up crap but everyone else.  Shep killed the last remaining queen of an insectiod race.  I don't believe that anyone would say that a genocide is "ok"...do you believe that the attempted genocide on the Jews in WW2 just had it coming?! No, no clear thinking individual would say that so why is it ok that the Rachni can go into extinction.  Who is Mordin to say that they are not ready for the genophage?! It was outside intervention that ENABLED the krogan to fight the rachni to near extinction...now that the turians and salarians got what they wanted from the krogan, it is now "ok" to make them suffer? I guess you would believe that Torture is a good thing too then right? because the Salarians and Turians are slowly committed a genocide on the krogans and the near total collapse of their culture and heritage. The Salarians/Turians were playing GOD with the Krogans by chosing the Krogan's fate. There is NO way to justify that because no one can foresee the future but they can assume (**** - U - ME) But you say it was ok to play GOD with the rachni's fate? by making them extinct? BS!  Ren Shep doesn't want to help any of his crew members he recruited...the option of when someone ask for help is "if we have time then we might do it"...doesnt even gurantee that he is going to help them...so if you and your squad lives past the suicide mission is because you were covering your own **** because you can damn well bet he wont care if jacob finds his daddy or if miranda's sister is safe...he is on one mission and one mission alone...to save his own **** by stopping the reapers to think otherwise that he wants to save the galaxy is just dumb and for paragon sheps.  We do not know if Cerberus is the only one out to stop the reapers...we definitely know the council isn't doing squat about it neither is the alliance but other alien/merc group could be doing something about it.  Sir, there is no difference between Cerberus and a merc group...they are only there for their own self gain thats it

[LeonRoughan]

Genocide is a word being bandied around a lot. I'm not sure it's the fitting term here. The Rachni did not face genocide, but extinction.



This could be perceived as a villainous act on the grounds that you are removing an entire species from the universe, however Shepard does have justification in doing this. You are made aware that these creatures have threatened the galaxy before and, if released, could restart a war during the Reaper invasion, any extra enemies in a time of war on that scale and defeat is definite. Neither Paragon nor Renegade is right or wrong, it is simply down to justification.



Arguably the outcome is best mirrored when Joker releases EDI into the ship, the decision is all based on faith in the person/creature/computer. When Joker starts talking about this being the moment he sold the humans out to the overlord, organic batteries, etc. he is doing something either completely foolish or incredibly smart. AI's have a rather dark past in the ME universe and for Joker to release one into one of the most advanced ships going, the results could have been disastrous.



Shepard is roughly the same, do you release the rachni queen in hopes that she isn't going to mess everything up? Or do you take the cynical view that, because of the rachni reputation, she is too dangerous to be left alive.



Similar with the Krogan, Genophage is not Genocide.

The Krogan were a threat, not as big as the reapers, but still capable of doing some damage. The Genophage itself does not kill them but serves to slow the birth rate. The Krogans know about it but insist on killing anyway. If they are willing to place pointless infighting above their own species survival then they are not perhaps something you want loose in the galaxy. Killing is in their nature, by my reckoning the minute the Genophage is cured they'd be mounting for war. Sure, they'd fight the Reapers, but who next? Humans? Turians? Asari?



Does anyone know how Krogan treat civilians in times of war? My guess is not well.

[Sniper11709]

alienatedflea wrote...

MrCasperTom wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...
RAWR...ok fine grammar police!
Reasons why ren shep is a villian in the ME trilogy:
1) ren shep allows genocide.  How is Shep any better than Hitler in just that point.  In Noveria, He decides to kill the last remaining Rachni Queen with no remorse.  The queen tells Shep their story of how their songs were corrupt for some reason and just wants to live in peace. 

But surely anyone would say that. If you're threatened with being killed you would say anything to be kept alive. It is similar to torture; innocent people can be made to say that they are guilty purely because they no longer want it to go on. They say anything to avoid their fate, even though that fate is most likely going to be death.

Shepard could choose to do that because he didn't believe the Queen was being truthful and was merely choosing to say that in order to live but would then go on to kill again.

alienatedflea wrote...2) destroys the genophage cure on Mordin's loyalty mission which was probably the key to making the krogan strong and united and to say we can see what they did in the past is an indication of the future is BS because people can change...

Yes but Mordin himself says that the Krogan aren't ready to be cured. Sure they are on the way and a cure could be found later on. Data that is gone can also be re-created; that is stated by Mordin and one of the quarian Admirals. It seems the practical approach until the Krogan are ready to be cured.

alienatedflea wrote...3) Helps no one but himself unless by helping someone else makes it benetifal to him...

When you're saving the galaxy helping an old woman carry her bags back to her house just to be nice isn't the best idea. Also the fact is many of the people asking for help have their own motives as they want Shepard to do something for them. That's the point.

alienatedflea wrote...4) Ren Shep sides with Cerberus...Cerberus is a dangerous group that has done some sick experiments and believes that humans should take charge of the galaxy...if you just look at how we are doing on Earth today...that would be the last thing the galaxy needs

Cerberus are the only ones doing something to face the reapers though. It is the logical choice and if their methods work then it doesn't matter. Plus Shepard is human and might want to elevate their race to the greatest position of strength. Many members of other races do the same. The Commander is still saving the galaxy.

alienatedflea wrote...5) Ren shep is the spectres' motto down like a fine art, "at any cost"...if he thought by getting his whole squad plus his mother killed was a good idea so he can finish the mission, he would.  He kills people with no remorse for example look at Thane's loyalty mission, shep even says "hostage crisis only work when you care about preserving life." (something along those lines...not sure)

But you can be renegade and still save you squad. Sure he kills people to get the job done but many, many people believe that the end justifies the means. Simple as. If the job is done but their is collateral less people will care because the aim has been done. And you die if all your squad is killed so surely that Shepard is just an idiot. Renegade Shepard isn't automatically an idiot.

ok, let me put it this way.  Genocide is never "ok"! Sure, rachni did some messed up crap but everyone else.  Shep killed the last remaining queen of an insectiod race.  I don't believe that anyone would say that a genocide is "ok"...do you believe that the attempted genocide on the Jews in WW2 just had it coming?! No, no clear thinking individual would say that so why is it ok that the Rachni can go into extinction.  Who is Mordin to say that they are not ready for the genophage?! It was outside intervention that ENABLED the krogan to fight the rachni to near extinction...now that the turians and salarians got what they wanted from the krogan, it is now "ok" to make them suffer? I guess you would believe that Torture is a good thing too then right? because the Salarians and Turians are slowly committed a genocide on the krogans and the near total collapse of their culture and heritage. The Salarians/Turians were playing GOD with the Krogans by chosing the Krogan's fate. There is NO way to justify that because no one can foresee the future but they can assume (**** - U - ME) But you say it was ok to play GOD with the rachni's fate? by making them extinct? BS!  Ren Shep doesn't want to help any of his crew members he recruited...the option of when someone ask for help is "if we have time then we might do it"...doesnt even gurantee that he is going to help them...so if you and your squad lives past the suicide mission is because you were covering your own **** because you can damn well bet he wont care if jacob finds his daddy or if miranda's sister is safe...he is on one mission and one mission alone...to save his own **** by stopping the reapers to think otherwise that he wants to save the galaxy is just dumb and for paragon sheps.  We do not know if Cerberus is the only one out to stop the reapers...we definitely know the council isn't doing squat about it neither is the alliance but other alien/merc group could be doing something about it.  Sir, there is no difference between Cerberus and a merc group...they are only there for their own self gain thats it

You know i was going to go into a detailed explanation of why your comparison of the Rachni and the Jews dosen't make sense but i'm not going to any more and i'm just going to say there is no bloody comparison because at no time in the existence of man have we ever run into a race that can mass produce an army 100x faster then us, has a previous history of starting wars of extinction and not quiting till they are all dead.

Your Krogan rant does nothing to convince anyone who can recall that Wrex tells you that Krogans do not try to survive/cure the genophage, instead they keep on fighting even though it's leading them to extinction . Also it dosen't matter if outside intervention gave them the opportunity, they still took it.

Also the Genophage by itself is not commiting genocide, it's the fact that the Krogan keep killing themselves that's driving them to extinction.

How does a Renegade saying "if there's time" have any relevence. I'm sorry but entire colonys are going missing.

So lets say you just went galavanting around the Galaxy doing all the loyalty missions, how many colonies went missing while you ran around, in game we are told of a few that go missing while we are doing the core missions unfortunetly Bioware dosen't actully make more colonies go missing if you take your time but seeing as that's meta gaming we can ignore that.

Your Cerberus being mercs comment and the constant comments like "clear thinking" "no way to justify" and such when they relate to a video game just make me think that you've lost touch with reality, your comment comparing Jews and Rachni don't help.

Modifié par Sniper11709, 12 août 2010 - 03:08 .

[PsyrenY]

alienatedflea wrote...
RAWR...ok fine grammar police!
Reasons why ren shep is a villian in the ME trilogy:
1) ren shep allows genocide.  How is Shep any better than Hitler in just that point.  In Noveria, He decides to kill the last remaining Rachni Queen with no remorse.  The queen tells Shep their story of how their songs were corrupt for some reason and just wants to live in peace. 

Even if they were corrupted, Shepard has no guarantee that they can't be corrupted again. It's like someone saying - "gosh, we're sorry we murdered your entire family, these other guys made us do it." What is to stop you from becoming slaves to "those other guys" a second time?

I'm not saying that I would kill the Rachni Queen, but I can understand why Renegade Shep would.

alienatedflea wrote...

2) destroys the genophage cure on Mordin's loyalty mission which was probably the key to making the krogan strong and united and to say we can see what they did in the past is an indication of the future is BS because people can change...

Here also, there is no guarantee that another bad clan (e.g. Gatatog) won't get their hands on the data and remake a horde of evil krogan. Destroying it keeps it safe from abuse.

Again, this is not what I would do, but I can understand why a Renegade Shepard could consider that course of action.

alienatedflea wrote...

3) Helps no one but himself unless by helping someone else makes it benetifal to him...

If "beneficial to self" was evil, then anything that helps you would be evil, including earning a paycheck or brushing your teeth.

alienatedflea wrote...

4) Ren Shep sides with Cerberus...Cerberus is a dangerous group that has done some sick experiments and believes that humans should take charge of the galaxy...if you just look at how we are doing on Earth today...that would be the last thing the galaxy needs

As Miranda pointed out, the divisions that did the sick experiments were destroyed by Shepard. For all you know, those cells no longer exist. Even if they do, humanity still needs cerberus to counter the STG and Commandos.

alienatedflea wrote...

5) Ren shep is the spectres' motto down like a fine art, "at any cost"...if he thought by getting his whole squad plus his mother killed was a good idea so he can finish the mission, he would.  He kills people with no remorse for example look at Thane's loyalty mission, shep even says "hostage crisis only work when you care about preserving life." (something along those lines...not sure)

Whether you kill with remorse or not really doesn't matter - the other person is still dead. What is the point of regretting it later? Even Samara kills without mercy, and she is as Paragon as it gets.

alienatedflea wrote...

If those reasons do make him a bad guy then i don't know what is bad then. 

Evidently you don't.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 12 août 2010 - 03:10 .

[alienatedflea]

LeonRoughan wrote...

Shepard is roughly the same, do you release the rachni queen in hopes that she isn't going to mess everything up? Or do you take the cynical view that, because of the rachni reputation, she is too dangerous to be left alive.

Similar with the Krogan, Genophage is not Genocide.
The Krogan were a threat, not as big as the reapers, but still capable of doing some damage. The Genophage itself does not kill them but serves to slow the birth rate. The Krogans know about it but insist on killing anyway. If they are willing to place pointless infighting above their own species survival then they are not perhaps something you want loose in the galaxy. Killing is in their nature, by my reckoning the minute the Genophage is cured they'd be mounting for war. Sure, they'd fight the Reapers, but who next? Humans? Turians? Asari?

Does anyone know how Krogan treat civilians in times of war? My guess is not well.

Genocide: (noun) - the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, cultural, racial, or political group.
Thats the definition of genocide...you can say that the rachni wars was a genocide of the rachni...and shep's decision to wipe out the rachni queen would be an extinction...my bad but to make a choice to annihalate a whole entire race is too big for just one person regardless of the status of that person...he was playing god with deciding rachni's fate when the rachni said they learned from their ways up front, but he kills her remorselessness.  The genophage is wrong in many levels, turians and salarians were playing god as well.  For all we know, the Krogan will never be "ready" if turians and salarians had their way.  No one has the right to mess with another person's fate...if its anyones fault for making the krogan a threat to the galaxy then the council is at fault because they decided to fight fire with fire in the Rachni Wars...but now the KROGAN has to pay for the ****** poor decision of the Council.  Please tell me how that is even remotely fair?

[PsyrenY]

alienatedflea wrote...

No one has the right to mess with another person's fate...

That applies to the Krogan as well. Are you saying they had the right to expand out of control, commit war crimes and refuse peace talks during the Rebellions? Did the Rachni have the right to slaughter other races simply for entering Rachni space? (And if they are so susceptible to indoctrination that they cannot fight it, aren't they a bigger liability for the universe than an asset?)

You're the one who is not being fair here.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 12 août 2010 - 05:41 .

[alienatedflea]

Optimystic_X wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

No one has the right to mess with another person's fate...

That applies to the Krogan as well. Are you saying they had the right to expand out of control, commit war crimes and refuse peace talks during the Rebellions? Did the Rachni have the right to slaughter other races simply for entering Rachni space? (And if they are so susceptible to indoctrination that they cannot fight it, aren't they a bigger liability for the universe than an asset?)

You're the one who is not being fair here.

Well that is an interesting point about the rachni but the Council gave the Krogan the tools to fight the Rachni to (what they believed was) total extinction.  They are an aggressive and warlike race.  All you have to do is look at their homeworld to see that.  Now that they can not do what they do best which is to fight, they are a dying breed of warriors.  They were in a global civil war over terrority after the nuclear fallout occurred until the Salarians discovered the Krogans. 

The Salarians found out that the Krogan were just as aggressive as the Rachni plus they can survive extreme conditions that other alien races could not.  They literally was fighting fire (the rachni) with fire (the krogan).  It was their own fault that after the rachni wars that the Krogan wanted to continue on warring with whoever got into their way. 

The discovery of the Krogan, a primitive race, was the worst thing that happened to the Krogans since their own nuclear war.  As I believe it (according to the codex), The Salarians hoped that the Krogan would help the Council in their fight with the Rachni and encouraged the Krogans to breed an army that would be used against the rachni. 

After the war, the Council gave the Krogans the conquered rachni worlds and other worlds to colonize and by not having to live in extreme, harsh conditions of Tuchanka, the Krogan numbers were left unchecked causing a population explosion unseen before.  SO, the Krogans HAD to claim other worlds because of overcrowding and running out of resources fast, thus began the Krogan Rebellions. 

During the Rebellions, the krogans sustained heavy losses but with the birth rate being incredibly high.  It seemed that the victory was only a matter of time.  This is where the Council turned to the Turian Heirarchy that released the Genophage which is a Biological weapon aimed at "reducing" the birth rate of the krogans. 

Mordin and the STG even had to modify the genophage because the krogans were evolving that would make the genophage useless.  The genophage is crippling their race and you say that is right? thats horrible.  That would be like cutting off the wings of a dove and telling it to fly.  The genophage is making the krogan race on the steady decline so the krogan are heading to extinction (not immediately but overtime). 

As for the rachni, they couldnt even make contact with the queen to negiogate anything.  The rachni had to be intelligent because they achieved space flight.  Well, the rachni queen on Noveria said that their songs are the only thing that the rachni workers/soldiers can understand and comforts them which is why they attacked you because binary helix tried to control them and kept them away from the queen.  The queen states that she wasn't even born when the rachni wars were going on.  She does not know why the rachni would war when they are good race.  She promises shepard that she will not attack any race and wants to live in peace as she sings songs to her children about shepard's forgiveness.  So when youre on the mission, Liara says the Krogan went too far and favors releasing the queen and Garrus says tell the council but he does not want to commit wholesale genocide while Ashley does not want her sisters to face the horrors of the Rachni and Wrex just was not impressed with bugs writing songs about shepard. 

Just to see what people think about the Rachni after they read this from mass effect wiki:
"The Rachni Queen on Noveria mentions "a tone from space" that forced the rachni to "resonate with its own sour yellow note". This hints that there may have been more to the Rachni Wars than the Council was aware of. Legion additionally states that Sovereign looked for allies among various races before finding the geth, leaving the possibility open that Sovereign indoctrinated the Rachni. The outside interference is confirmed in Mass Effect 2, depending on whether you released the Queen, by a message given to Shepard by an asari who is in service to the newly freed Queen. The asari tells Shepard that the Queen believes Shepard is fighting the enemy who "soured the song of" the rachni. She also states that the queen is building an army to fight them when they arrive in force, based on an otherwise unexplored planet. Shepard concludes that the message is referring to the Reapers, either through agents, such as the Collectors, or directly." interesting huh?

[tonnactus]

The reason for killing samara: Morinth has far more biotic potential then her mother(dont annoy me with gameplay comparisons/jack destroys heavy mechs with a biotic punch...).She younger then her but still as strong.Yes,it comes at a cost,but who is nef compared with millions of saved humans.She did her job fine in the suicide mission.
It just right what shepardt mentioned:That morinth would be more usefull to him.

Modifié par tonnactus, 12 août 2010 - 10:35 .

[Cheese Elemental]

tonnactus wrote...

The reason for killing samara: Morinth has far more biotic potential then her mother(dont annoy me with gameplay comparisons/jack destroys heavy mechs with a biotic punch...).She younger then her but still as strong.Yes,it comes at a cost,but who is nef compared with millions of saved humans.She did her job fine in the suicide mission.
It just right what shepardt mentioned:That morinth would be more usefull to him.

She only says that she's as powerful as her mother, not MORE powerful.

It's not worth the risk. She might attempt to seduce members of the Normandy crew (and even tries to kill Shepard!)

[tonnactus]

Cheese Elemental wrote...

She only says that she's as powerful as her mother, not MORE powerful.

I talk about the potential.Samara is some centuries older then her daughter,and morinth is as strong then her. And the risk isnt big,because shepardt only got to choose morinth if he could resist her.If something going wrong on the ship,shepardt would immediatly know who it is and would throw her out of the airlock. So morinth wouldnt do dumb things inside it.

Modifié par tonnactus, 12 août 2010 - 10:47 .

[Shadow_broker]

tonnactus wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...

She only says that she's as powerful as her mother, not MORE powerful.

I talk about the potential.Samara is some centuries older then her daughter,and morinth is as strong then her. And the risk isnt big,because shepardt only got to choose morinth if he could resist her.If something going wrong on the ship,shepardt would immediatly know who it is and would throw her out of the airlock. So morinth wouldnt do dumb things inside it.

How will mornith possibly having more biotic potential within a few centuries help a urgent suicide mission that is likley happening within the month


By choosing monrith your doing nothing but letting a murderer get away and murdering a true hero who has dedicated her life to fixing the wrong she has done

[ExtremeOne]

oh please renegade Shepard is not a Villian. if you all think that then what does that make Tali who is a out right racist. from what i have seen some aliens in ME 2 are far worse.