48 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth_Trethon]

So in other words the system is intentionally broken? Great....just amazing....Shepard can't figure out for himself not to take sides unless he wants to divide his squad. Just amazing. And the game was deliberately made to make people not want to import a ME2 save and to essentially force everyone to either mod, import a ME1 save or have their game experience SUCK.....all on top of the brilliant suck-pile that is mineral scanning....screw the patch mineral scanning needs to be completely and forever eliminated just like the Renegade/Paragon system. They try to force players to do all kind of things like import ME1 saves and have a longer hours/playthrough count than the game merits and play the game multiple times with design choices that are literally complete garbage and then they are surprised to get stats like....only ~50% of the people that played the game actually FINISHED the bloody thing!!! I really can't express in words how disappointed I am with this kind of crap.

[Killjoy Cutter]

I'm not a fan of having conversational options greyed out because a "score" isn't high enough.

[Haventh]

 I never had any problems with persuading them with paragon on any of my playthroughs. But mostly i do jack loyalty mission late (and legion you get late), so i always have enough points to stay on the good side with both parties. 

[StarcloudSWG]

It's not a matter of points. It's a matter of how many paragon/renegade points you *could have potentially earned* and how many *you actually earned* as a percentage. So if you go to, say Ilium and do only Miranda's loyalty mission, then visit Tuchanka and do nothing there, and then go to Jack's loyalty mission, your overall percentage will be lower *even if* your Paragon/Renegade bar is full.

Which is how you can fail the Paragon/Renegade checks for Jack and Miranda's fight even if you have a high score.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 29 septembre 2010 - 02:46 .

[Ieldra]

I've explained the system in detail, and made a guide on how to metagame the system in order to make every decision the way you want it to go. Read my Mass Effect 2 Persuasion Guide.



As someone has correctly pointed out, using a savegame editor to give yourself more points may be easier, but not everyone plays on a PC and not everyone wants to cheat outright.

[Pacifien]

Ieldra2 wrote...
As someone has correctly pointed out, using a savegame editor to give yourself more points may be easier, but not everyone plays on a PC and not everyone wants to cheat outright.

You can cheat with the XBox 360 version as well. XBox 360 Modding

[Schattenkeil]

Hm... I only lost influence in Jack that way and could live with that. The only thing I regret is that I can't airlock her. I prefer to make my own decisions and give my answers from the character's perspective as she sees fit.



Never in the game has it been made clear that going to extremes and always picking the renegade choice or the paragon choice would be superior over picking whatever you think is right for you. It's not difficult to identify what the paragon choice is to me, but in some situations I just didn't want to. This game should make one live with one's own choices but not categorically penalize people who don't go to one of the two possible extremes. That's a sever conceptual game flaw.

[Arivael]

So as I am understanding it you need to have a % of the total avalible paragon points to be able to use the Persuade options, so is they anyway to check what % you do have, does importing a ME2 Shep from past playthrough have any affect on you paragon/renegade points/%.



Also as far as I can tell the best way to solve the Miranda/Jack with fight is to trigger the loyalty missons as early as you can and play obcesivly paragon/renegade up untill that point?

[Pacifien]

If you import an ME2 Shep, your paragon/renegade points start at 0. The only way to get a bonus on the morality points is to import an ME1 Shep.

And yes, doing the loyalty missions earlier can make the persuasion checks easier because you're likely to have missed less opportunities to gain points versus the points that had been available. Without the ME1 import boost, it does take a near full paragon/renegade playthrough to meet the checks.

In this post Kim Stolz mentions their intentions for why they did those checks, but I think in practice the system failed. Had you the opportunity to save both Kaidan and Ashley in ME1, I'm sure many people would have jumped through hoops to do so. (And yes, I'm aware that people are quite glad they could leave someone to die there, you don't need to follow up my comment just to say so.) So now that they have given people an opportunity to maintain both loyalties in ME2, people jump through hoops to do so. You sacrifice roleplay just to game the system because it sucks having to lose both loyalties when you know you could have kept both somehow.

Hopefully the developers realize this was a mistake and come up with something else in ME3.

[Skyblade012]

Pacifien wrote...

If you import an ME2 Shep, your paragon/renegade points start at 0. The only way to get a bonus on the morality points is to import an ME1 Shep.
And yes, doing the loyalty missions earlier can make the persuasion checks easier because you're likely to have missed less opportunities to gain points versus the points that had been available. Without the ME1 import boost, it does take a near full paragon/renegade playthrough to meet the checks.
In this post Kim Stolz mentions their intentions for why they did those checks, but I think in practice the system failed. Had you the opportunity to save both Kaidan and Ashley in ME1, I'm sure many people would have jumped through hoops to do so. (And yes, I'm aware that people are quite glad they could leave someone to die there, you don't need to follow up my comment just to say so.) So now that they have given people an opportunity to maintain both loyalties in ME2, people jump through hoops to do so. You sacrifice roleplay just to game the system because it sucks having to lose both loyalties when you know you could have kept both somehow.
Hopefully the developers realize this was a mistake and come up with something else in ME3.

The persuasion system has been fairly broken in both games.

In Mass Effect, people complained about having to sacrifice combat capability for the persuasions, and the whole "4 playthroughs to max the points naturally".

In ME2, they switched it away so that it is based entirely on decisions, separating it from the combat.  But, that choice has destroyed any capability to roleplay your character, since you get shoehorned into a single persuasion path because it's the only way to keep going.

I'm curious as to how they'll take it in ME3.

[Ieldra]

Pacifien wrote...
In this post Kim Stolz mentions their intentions for why they did those checks, but I think in practice the system failed. Had you the opportunity to save both Kaidan and Ashley in ME1, I'm sure many people would have jumped through hoops to do so. (And yes, I'm aware that people are quite glad they could leave someone to die there, you don't need to follow up my comment just to say so.) So now that they have given people an opportunity to maintain both loyalties in ME2, people jump through hoops to do so. You sacrifice roleplay just to game the system because it sucks having to lose both loyalties when you know you could have kept both somehow.
Hopefully the developers realize this was a mistake and come up with something else in ME3.

Actually, knowing that it was intended to be almost impossible makes it easier to accept. The problem is, if you don't know that and you fail, you don't know how far you've been from success, and that makes you try for a better result again and again.

[Ieldra]

Skyblade012 wrote...
In Mass Effect, people complained about having to sacrifice combat capability for the persuasions, and the whole "4 playthroughs to max the points naturally".

In ME2, they switched it away so that it is based entirely on decisions, separating it from the combat.  But, that choice has destroyed any capability to roleplay your character, since you get shoehorned into a single persuasion path because it's the only way to keep going.

I'm curious as to how they'll take it in ME3.

How about like it is in ME2, only you can spend additional points to increase persuasion. You'd have to sacrifice combat capability, but with no freebies there won't be "n playthroughs to max the points". I think having to sacrifice combat capability is acceptable, as long as there's no way around it.

[GuardianAngel470]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Skyblade012 wrote...
In Mass Effect, people complained about having to sacrifice combat capability for the persuasions, and the whole "4 playthroughs to max the points naturally".

In ME2, they switched it away so that it is based entirely on decisions, separating it from the combat.  But, that choice has destroyed any capability to roleplay your character, since you get shoehorned into a single persuasion path because it's the only way to keep going.

I'm curious as to how they'll take it in ME3.

How about like it is in ME2, only you can spend additional points to increase persuasion. You'd have to sacrifice combat capability, but with no freebies there won't be "n playthroughs to max the points". I think having to sacrifice combat capability is acceptable, as long as there's no way around it.

I detailed a similar suggestion in this thread: http://social.biowar...3/index/4565413

[brgillespie]

How about not limiting conversation options at all in ME3? Let me play the game how I want to play it, don't make me metagame my choices based on an in-game "score" to successfully resolve decisions that may adversely effect the ending of MY goddamn game. >

Modifié par brgillespie, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:24 .

[MrFob]

Hey guys,



Got a question about the system:

Sr. Stolz said, that if you arrive e.g. on Omega, the game detects all paragon/renegade points available in the area. Therefore if I just walk there, take Zaeed, walk out again and, do his LM, the paragon option at the end will be very difficult to obtain because I didn't get any points on Omega et. Now my question: What points do count? Only the ones I could have gotten at the Omega hub section or also those I could have gotten at Mordins/Archangels recruiting missions? What about points in the hub section that I can only obtain later (Ish's mission/Patriarch mission)? What about converstions you no longer have because the characters were already killed in ME1 (Asari with Rachni message on Illium)? I guess the game only counts the converstions that are available at the time, right? Otherwise you'd have a huge disdvantage as soon as you step on the Normady because there are a lot of conversions that are only ttriggered later. Would be intersting to know these detail though, if anyone has an idea.



Oh and I agree that one of the big problems of the system is that the player is not shown his/her actual status. Even worse they get a completely meaningless and misguiding moral meter in the char screen. Who the hell came up with that? It wouldn't have been difficult to make a dinamic paragon/renegade bar, that actually shows you your current chances.



As a general comment, I think for ME3, they should go back to the ME1 system. Yeah, people complained that you'd have to sacrifice combat skill points but it makes sense your character concentrates on diplomacy rather then only combat. Besdes, the options often help to increase your odds in combat or to avoid it altogether.

The only problem with the mE1 system was that it encouraged metagaming as you'd wait with missions with difficult options (e.g. Feros). You didn't want to put points into the skill too quickly either or you'd miss some free points (not to mention that people actually played through the game 3-4 times with one character in order to max out their charm/intimidate skills without spending points).

[achwas]

Haventh wrote...

 I never had any problems with persuading them with paragon on any of my playthroughs. But mostly i do jack loyalty mission late (and legion you get late), so i always have enough points to stay on the good side with both parties. 

Guess what, doing Jack's LM last, with the fourth bar of the paragon track reached, and only taking renegade interrupts when I knew no paragonic option was getting blocked by it, even taking chracters along for certain missions to "fish" for extra paragonic points (Legion on Tali's mission, done second to last, Tali onto the citadel for the Quarian pilgrimage sidequest ) , it was not enough.  Neither on +70% or on +100 value from my vanguard's special class
ability. (100% placing me close to "maxxed out" on the paragon bar...
which actually proved worthless, shame about the Eezo for retraining)

that's right.. not ENOUGH.

And my shep had not enough points or percentage for the one-on-one "makeup"- talk after that, either. Neither with Jack, nor with Miranda. Since the SM is next, I guess... that means Jack is not gonna make it through to the showdown

Fun fact, my non-imported Infiltrator (male) had no problems resolving their loyalty conflict even before the reaper-vessel visit.

Great design there, Bioware. I really like the game (being on my fourth playthrough atm) , but this sucks

Modifié par achwas, 21 octobre 2010 - 12:05 .

[xassantex]

hmm, 6 months later here i am with my 2c ,
i gave up on that stupid argument. One playthrough i go for jack and the other miranda. One of them always dies, so what. Plus some renegade points are just too much fun to bypass , like with the Krogan "You talk too much" or throwing the eclipse merc down the tower, lol.

Modifié par xassantex, 22 avril 2011 - 02:54 .

[Kureeza]

I have 95% renegade and one full bar of paragon... I have Legion as my last loyalty to reguired... after mission I choose to take the geth to Legion and so gaining 30 paragon... After mission is over TAli goes to have a "chat" with legion. After the sweet-talk is over I get to choose my options. Not eaven Renegade or Paragon option is open. I mean I have done this b4 easy this way with no proble. But 95% renegade but no renegade option? What should I do?

[Get Magna Carter]

Jack/Miranda is easy renegade but extremely difficult paragon
Tali/Legion is easy paragon but extremely difficult renegade

The easy way to do the persuades is to max out your class skill and get the 100% bonus to persuade.
Using that, it is possible to have both charm and intimidate options available
(and it can some times be easier to pick a side and then talk to the other to win them back than to pick both together)

[Kureeza]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

Jack/Miranda is easy renegade but extremely difficult paragon
Tali/Legion is easy paragon but extremely difficult renegade

The easy way to do the persuades is to max out your class skill and get the 100% bonus to persuade.
Using that, it is possible to have both charm and intimidate options available
(and it can some times be easier to pick a side and then talk to the other to win them back than to pick both together)

I see... I have chosen Tali but when I instead chose to blow the geth base to pices my renegade was 100% and still i could not pick renegade choise =(

[Kureeza]

Nevermind, got it fixed...

[xippih]

I have been trying to solve this with renegade and the one with legion and tali with paragon but it always 1 of them that won't be happy. Any ideas?

[BurningBlood]

Jack/Miranda is difficult renegade but extremely difficult paragon
Tali/Legion is difficult paragon but extremely difficult renegade

Corrections in bold.

This has been discussed extensively in these forums, but briefly: it doesn't matter how full the paragon or renegade bars are.  (The way Bioware implemented those bars is rather misleading.)  What matters is how many paragon/renegade points you actually acquired compared to how many you could have acquired.  Therefore it's easier to resolve the conflicts sooner rather than later, and if you really want to keep everyone loyal you need to either: import a high-morality character from ME1 (for the bonus points); or choose right at the start of the game to be either paragon or renegade and then stick to that one morality completely and unwaveringly from then on.  Also, once you've entered a new quest hub (Omega, Ilium, the Citadel, etc.) don't do any plot missions until you've completed every single side-mission for that hub.

For example:

I imported a paragon from ME1, did a full paragon run in ME2 (except for the renegade interrupt where you zap Kathka in Garrus' recruitment, I don't know why anyone wouldn't take that one ), and was easily able to charm everyone and keep them loyal.

I imported a paragade from ME1 (about 2:1 paragon:renegade) and more or less maintained that balance through ME2.  This time, while I was still able to charm Legion and Tali, I was not able to intimidate them; and when Jack and Miranda started fighting I was forced to choose.

Modifié par BurningBlood, 18 août 2012 - 04:29 .

[PsiFive]

To add to BurningBlood's advice, maxing out your passive class skill as early as you can and choosing the specialty that gives a 100% bonus on morality points helps a lot. Especially when you're not playing an ME1 import or playing an NG+ (your bonus points from ME1 do not carry into NG+ games). The Death Mask is also helpful but not available until you can go to Tuchanka.