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[Giggles_Manically]

Looking at one of my old history textbooks, History of the Wife it appaers that the age of consent was based around biology rather age. As soon as a girl hit puberty she was considered of age in Medieval Europe, to marry or have children. While for a male he had to be able to provide for a family on his own so that meant he had to be much older, at least into his twenties in many cases. Its only been this century since their was a legal age to marry.



end historical rant.



ps. I cant understand the appeal of Teagan at all.

[nos_astra]

Herr Uhl wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Maybe the feelings weren't mutual back then.

Possible. It could also be we're overestimating the age considered normal for them to marry. It wasn't that unusual for women to be married off at 14 y.o. or even less back then from what i've read, it was the males who were supposed to marry quite a bit older becaues they were supposed to then fend for the new family.

Yup. But I don't think that this franchise adopts all the old customs. Pedophilia being accepted would be taking it pretty far.

In the middles ages there was no pedophilia for the sole reason that there was no real concept of childhood or adolescence.

As soon as you were able to work, you did. Boys could be sent away to "see the world" and learn how to survive (unless you were the heir of your fathers business). An actual apprenticeship was expensive. For a girl you could be considered old enough to marry and bear children as soon as you had your menarche (let's say 14, the first child was born around the age of 16). I don't think people even knew how old they were exactly.

Of course, Ferelden is a bit different. It is unclear how many people can read and write, how they are educated even (mages and nobles should be able to read). It seems the Chantry and the Circle can provide education.
With this knowledge come documents and people would be able to take notes about birthdates, let alone spread concepts like "coming of age" based on an actual age rather than the circumstances.

That's why I would be extremely hesitant to simply apply a modern view.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 juin 2010 - 02:24 .

[Herr Uhl]

klarabella wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Yup. But I don't think that this franchise adopts all the old customs. Pedophilia being accepted would be taking it pretty far.

In the middles ages there was no pedophilia for the sole reason as there was no real concept of childhood or adolescence.

As soon as you were able to work, you did. For a girl you could be considered old enough to marry and bear children as soon as you had your menarche (let's say 14, the first child was born around the age of 16). I don't think people even knew how old they were exactly.

Of course, Ferelden is a bit different. It is unclear how many people can read and write, how they are educated even (mages and nobles should be able to read). it seems the Chantry and the Circle can provide education.
With this knowledge come documents and people would be able to take notes about birthdates, let alone spread concepts like "coming of age" based on an actual age rather than the circumstances.

That's why I would be extremely hesitant to simply apply a modern view.

Well, yes. But they are making it for a modern audience, who will see it as pedophilia. I was thinking from a developer standpoint and how much crap they would get for that.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 juin 2010 - 02:13 .

[nos_astra]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Well, yes. But they are making it for a modern audience, who will see it as pedophilia. I was thinking from a developer standpoint and how much crap they would get for that.

Of course, it's wise to make the people we deal with around 18 because that's what we understand as being "of age". I  - as the player - just wouldn't mistake this for a rule that applies to all of Ferelden or Thedas and if I was a developer I simply wouldn't elaborate on this particular matter.

I'm actually planning a fanfic that has exactly this problem. My main character is supposed to be young but I made her 18 instead of 16. I'm just going to hint that in her community it wouldn't be unsual to be married and have two kids at this age, and that for a girl of 18 it is high time to consider marriage.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 juin 2010 - 02:23 .

[elearon1]

>>Well, yes. But they are making it for a modern audience, who will see it as pedophilia. I was thinking from a developer standpoint and how much crap they would get for that.<<



It is not as though your character is having sex with a 12-14 year old girl, and it is ridiculous to feel we should have to rewrite history (even in fiction) to avoid harming people's sensibilities. Saddly, it happens all the time, in schools, history books, and so forth - but that does not make it a good idea.

[Herr Uhl]

klarabella wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Well, yes. But they are making it for a modern audience, who will see it as pedophilia. I was thinking from a developer standpoint and how much crap they would get for that.

Of course, it's wise to make the people we deal with around 18 because that's what we understand as being "of age". I  - as the player - just wouldn't mistake this for a rule that applies to all of Ferelden or Thedas and if I was a developer I simply wouldn't elaborate on this particular matter.

I'm actually planning a fanfic that has exactly this problem. My main character is supposed to be young but I made her 18 instead of 16. I'm just going to hint that in her community it wouldn't be unsual to be married and have two kids at this age, and that for a girl of 18 it is high time to consider marriage.

I don't know. Has there been a standard set for marriage age outside of the elven community? (where it seems to be 20) If Kaitlyn is anything to go by, people don't start working at 15 in Ferelden.

[tmp7704]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Well, yes. But they are making it for a modern audience, who will see it as pedophilia. I was thinking from a developer standpoint and how much crap they would get for that.

Well, they also have the chevaliers with their "license to raep" which i'd imagine is just as controversial concept for the modern audience. Tbh i think it's actually good thing if a game can show the ignorant modern audience that things have used to be different. If just so the modern audience can appreciate better how good they have it now.

(i mean the ignorant audience in general here, same way the 'lowest common denominator' is used)

Modifié par tmp7704, 18 juin 2010 - 02:34 .

[nos_astra]

Herr Uhl wrote...
I don't know. Has there been a standard set for marriage age outside of the elven community? (where it seems to be 20) If Kaitlyn is anything to go by, people don't start working at 15 in Ferelden.

I don't think anything is set, not even in the elven community. We don't know how old Tabris, Soris and Shianni are. 20 is a rather high age for a country where there is no public educational system. What are people supposed to do until they are allowed to marry by modern standards?

The modern concept of a legal age is based on education, isn't it? I know my husband's father who was born in 1940 went to school until he was 14, then started an apprenticeship. When he was finished he was around 18.
What if there is no school and no apprenticeship? You can't have your children simply hang out on your expense just because.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 juin 2010 - 02:40 .

[Herr Uhl]

tmp7704 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Well, yes. But they are making it for a modern audience, who will see it as pedophilia. I was thinking from a developer standpoint and how much crap they would get for that.

Well, they also have the chevaliers with their "license to raep" which i'd imagine is just as controversial concept for the modern audience. Tbh i think it's actually good thing if a game can show the ignorant modern audience that things have used to be different. If just so the modern audience can appreciate better how good they have it now.

(i mean the ignorant audience in general here, same way the 'lowest common denominator' is used)

They are still seen as douchebags and people in the game thinks that it is wrong. Having 14-15 year olds marrying 30 somethings and nobody raising an eyebrow would be more controversial.

[tmp7704]

Herr Uhl wrote...

They are still seen as douchebags and people in the game thinks that it is wrong.

I'm not sure how many do think that, actually. Certainly they aren't universally perceived this way in Orlais or the system simply would not exist. In Ferelden the dislike for Orlais seems to stem more from being conquered and treated like conquered countries typically are treated, than any particular social arrangements of that country.

[Sarah1281]

tmp7704 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

They are still seen as douchebags and people in the game thinks that it is wrong.

I'm not sure how many do think that, actually. Certainly they aren't universally perceived this way in Orlais or the system simply would not exist. In Ferelden the dislike for Orlais seems to stem more from being conquered and treated like conquered countries typically are treated, than any particular social arrangements of that country.

Well the common folk of Orlais certainly seem to be unhappy with it even if they do feel that the Chevaliers have a right to it. The closest we seem to come in Ferelden is Vaughan and his elf-abducting but we don't really get a good sense of how others would see this behavior. Certainly his father isn't very happy with his heir although if it's for that, the getting drunk early in the day, or something else I'm not sure.

And no matter what the age of consent was in Ferelden, there must have been one regardless of how things played out historically or else Master Tilver couldn't have been planning on hooking up with a girl clearly stated to be underage. Whether this made her 15 or 8 they do draw the line somewhere.

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...
And no matter what the age of consent was in Ferelden, there must have been one regardless of how things played out historically or else Master Tilver couldn't have been planning on hooking up with a girl clearly stated to be underage. Whether this made her 15 or 8 they do draw the line somewhere.

If you go from the "historical" beliefs we've discussed I'd say a girl might be considered underage if she's not old enough to marry ... and we should leave it at that. Everyone can have their own thoughts about how old this may be.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 juin 2010 - 04:12 .

[Weiser_Cain]

Maviarab wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Looking at one of my old history textbooks, History of the Wife it appaers that the age of consent was based around biology rather age. As soon as a girl hit puberty she was considered of age in Medieval Europe, to marry or have children. While for a male he had to be able to provide for a family on his own so that meant he had to be much older, at least into his twenties in many cases. Its only been this century since their was a legal age to marry.

This!

One cannot argue with nature, or God depending on your beliefs (which rather makes a mockery of the church legal age ruling).

Sure you can. There is a condition where basically the young ladies lower bits are wrecked by child birth, leaving her with various horrid levels of incontinence. All because she had a child while she was too small.
I saw a documentary about it the other day.

[Jayce]

It's going to vary. As others have said the whole notion of adulthood is a very very recent concept. Probably less than 50 years in it's current form, before then, you were an adult when your parents said you were.



Here's a bit of recent context. It's was only in 1920 that the british army and navy limited their boy soldiers and midshipmen to no younger than 16 and it was only the 1970s that under 18s were banned from combat. Prior to then, many young boys served their apprentiships and saw battle from as young as 8 or 9.

[nos_astra]

Maviarab wrote...
This!

One cannot argue with nature, or God depending on your beliefs (which rather makes a mockery of the church legal age ruling).

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but today we are beyond relying on nature or god (at least in my country).

[Sarah1281]

klarabella wrote...

Maviarab wrote...
This!

One cannot argue with nature, or God depending on your beliefs (which rather makes a mockery of the church legal age ruling).

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but today we are beyond relying on nature or god (at least in my country).

Are you suggesting that a higher power would be offended if you waited until, say, 23 to get married? Why? 

[Sarah1281]

Maviarab wrote...

But are we really?
If your religous, then God decides when a woman is fit for childbirth, if you believe in creation, then nature decides when a woman is fit for childbirth....

The size of a woman does matter yes, but ultimately, once a girl/woman has hit puberty, she is of child bearing age, and no matter what your morals or self beliefs are, you cannot argue with that can you?

Sure you can. Unless you also feel that you can't argue with the need to be constantly pregnant from puberty until menopause then that has little to do with it. What age can boys start getting girls pregnant? I've noticed that 'nature' isn't dictating that they need to start being fathers that young. Society seems to dictate that men should wait and why is that more acceptable than women waiting? 

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Maviarab wrote...
This!

One cannot argue with nature, or God depending on your beliefs (which rather makes a mockery of the church legal age ruling).

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but today we are beyond relying on nature or god (at least in my country).

Are you suggesting that a higher power would be offended if you waited until, say, 23 to get married? Why? 

What? No. I wouldn't say such a thing. I'm not sure about Maviarab, though.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 juin 2010 - 04:55 .

[ejoslin]

Hitting puberty is an interesting concept -- I think you mean menarche, which is not the marker of the beginning of puberty. There also is a much higher incidence of miscarriage, still birth, maternal death, and infant mortality when a girl gets pregnant within the first two years of menarche.



But Ferelden does not seem to be based on this. Literacy is high -- extremely high. Even Zevran can read and speaks about reading as a child. All the origins can read. There are many young women who are not married but who have the adult female model. The two noble origins, marriage does not seem to be a bartering tool for either gender.



My point? I really have none. I know there were societies that the marriages were arranged before hand and consummated after the girl hit menarche, but I see no indication of that in Ferelden.

[Weiser_Cain]

Maviarab wrote...

But are we really?
If your religous, then God decides when a woman is fit for childbirth, if you believe in creation, then nature decides when a woman is fit for childbirth....

The size of a woman does matter yes (but Weiser, this can happen at ANY age), but ultimately, once a girl/woman has hit puberty, she is of child bearing age, and no matter what your morals or self beliefs are, you cannot argue with that can you?

Klara, my point being is, the church pushed for a legal age of consent (and that differes with different countries remember), yet when a female hits puberty, she is, whether you personally like it or not, of child bearing and consentual age for her body.

Nature doesn't decide anything it just happens. Do you take medicines? That's not natural. Nature wants you to feel that pain. Do you live indoors? Nature designed you for the tropics.

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

There are many young women who are not married but who have the adult female model.

To be fair at least in part that's because it's either the full adult model or 10 year old kid one

[ejoslin]

tmp7704 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

There are many young women who are not married but who have the adult female model.

To be fair at least in part that's because it's either the full adult model or 10 year old kid one

That is true, but doesn't negate the rest of what I wrote.