162 réponses à ce sujet

[SusanStoHelit]

Herr Uhl wrote...

klarabella wrote...

In the middles ages there was no pedophilia for the sole reason as there was no real concept of childhood or adolescence.

As soon as you were able to work, you did. For a girl you could be considered old enough to marry and bear children as soon as you had your menarche (let's say 14, the first child was born around the age of 16). I don't think people even knew how old they were exactly.

Of course, Ferelden is a bit different. It is unclear how many people can read and write, how they are educated even (mages and nobles should be able to read). it seems the Chantry and the Circle can provide education.
With this knowledge come documents and people would be able to take notes about birthdates, let alone spread concepts like "coming of age" based on an actual age rather than the circumstances.

That's why I would be extremely hesitant to simply apply a modern view.

Well, yes. But they are making it for a modern audience, who will see it as pedophilia. I was thinking from a developer standpoint and how much crap they would get for that.

Well, I don't know about that. I don't see my grandfather as a paedophile. When they married, my grandmother was 15.  They were legally married, with the consent of her parents, and she wasn't pregnant either (not a shotgun wedding). My grandmother is still alive and kicking, and whatever she might say about my grandfather, calling him a paedophile just doesn't happen. 

[Herr Uhl]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Well, yes. But they are making it for a modern audience, who will see it as pedophilia. I was thinking from a developer standpoint and how much crap they would get for that.

Well, I don't know about that. I don't see my grandfather as a paedophile. When they married, my grandmother was 15.  They were legally married, with the consent of her parents, and she wasn't pregnant either (not a shotgun wedding). My grandmother is still alive and kicking, and whatever she might say about my grandfather, calling him a paedophile just doesn't happen. 

And she is the soccer mom population that would likely lash out?

Edit: Though I still find 30-somethings hitting on 15-year olds creepy.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 juin 2010 - 11:25 .

[Sarah1281]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

klarabella wrote...

In the middles ages there was no pedophilia for the sole reason as there was no real concept of childhood or adolescence.

As soon as you were able to work, you did. For a girl you could be considered old enough to marry and bear children as soon as you had your menarche (let's say 14, the first child was born around the age of 16). I don't think people even knew how old they were exactly.

Of course, Ferelden is a bit different. It is unclear how many people can read and write, how they are educated even (mages and nobles should be able to read). it seems the Chantry and the Circle can provide education.
With this knowledge come documents and people would be able to take notes about birthdates, let alone spread concepts like "coming of age" based on an actual age rather than the circumstances.

That's why I would be extremely hesitant to simply apply a modern view.

Well, yes. But they are making it for a modern audience, who will see it as pedophilia. I was thinking from a developer standpoint and how much crap they would get for that.

Well, I don't know about that. I don't see my grandfather as a paedophile. When they married, my grandmother was 15.  They were legally married, with the consent of her parents, and she wasn't pregnant either (not a shotgun wedding). My grandmother is still alive and kicking, and whatever she might say about my grandfather, calling him a paedophile just doesn't happen. 

But imagine that it happened today. People would be against it because societal norms have changed and therefore the types of relationships that happened not too long ago in the past if created in a fictional setting today would cause people to freak out.

[ejoslin]

Well, there's a big difference between a 15 year old and, say, an 8 year old. A 15 year old is physically mature even if not emotionally, so I wouldn't call that pedophilia.



Societal expectations are a whole different issue.

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, there's a big difference between a 15 year old and, say, an 8 year old. A 15 year old is physically mature even if not emotionally, so I wouldn't call that pedophilia.

Societal expectations are a whole different issue.

Yup. Thus I only find it creepy, since it is legal (at least here).

Now, if we were talking about 10-year olds and younger, then it would be a completely different issue.

[Akamadoushi]

As a fantasy tale, Dragon Age evokes a middle-ages/renaissance sort of environment. Back in the day (which extends all the way into the late industrial age, age of consent laws didn't start appearing and seeing real enforcement until around the 1930s or so), it wasn't at all unacceptable or even uncommon for a 30-something year old man to marry a 12 year old girl; as horrifying and creepy as that is, Tilver would have been a pretty normal guy any time before the late 1800s, and wouldn't expect to see jail time anywhere before the 1930s.

[tmp7704]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But imagine that it happened today. People would be against it because societal norms have changed and therefore the types of relationships that happened not too long ago in the past if created in a fictional setting today would cause people to freak out.

But isn't that pretty much making ourselves willing hostages to whims of hypothetical stupid people? It's like re-instating Hays Code all over again when the MPAA rating system was supposed to remove it.

[Sarah1281]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

But imagine that it happened today. People would be against it because societal norms have changed and therefore the types of relationships that happened not too long ago in the past if created in a fictional setting today would cause people to freak out.

But isn't that pretty much making ourselves willing hostages to whims of hypothetical stupid people? It's like re-instating Hays Code all over again when the MPAA rating system was supposed to remove it.

 *dislikes discomfort with teenagers ending up with much older men being called stupid* Unless the point of the game is to make some sort of statement about historical accuracy which it isn't and isn't actually touched upon at all then why would they add something so needlessly controversial? 

[ejoslin]

And the stupid people aren't hypothetical. The Zevran/Male Warden romance scene had many a person screaming. Imagine if it was Alistair/14-year-old City Elf.

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

And the stupid people aren't hypothetical. The Zevran/Male Warden romance scene had many a person screaming. Imagine if it was Alistair/14-year-old City Elf.

And male to boot .

[ejoslin]

I deliberately used Alistair as an example for an underage girl because Zevran gets enough hate.

Edit: My copy and paste went bad.

Edit: Plus, placing the girl at 14 or 15 and Alistair at 21 or 22 puts a whole different dynamic on the courtship, doesn't it 

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 juin 2010 - 12:29 .

[tmp7704]

Sarah1281 wrote...

*dislikes discomfort with teenagers ending up with much older men being called stupid*

No, i was rather thinking it'd be pretty stupid for people to take offense at what happens in a fictional universe modeled after medieval settings. Especially since going this route they should be equally up in arms about presence of slavery and number of other topics which aren't up to our current society standards.

Unless the point of the game is to make some sort of statement about historical accuracy which it isn't and isn't actually touched upon at all then why would they add something so needlessly controversial? 

Well, you look at it as adding something unnecessary for the sake of needless controversy. I look at it as airbrushing/sanitizing the settings when it should not be necessary in the first place -- i'd like to think people could be smart enough to recognize what's simply a fictional depiction of their own practices from the past. Much like that mentioned slavery, crusades, literal racism, feudal systems with people devoid of rights and number of other topics.

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

I deliberately used Alistair as an example for an underage girl because Zevran gets enough hate.

Edit: My copy and paste went bad.

Edit: Plus, placing the girl at 14 or 15 and Alistair at 21 or 22 puts a whole different dynamic on the courtship, doesn't it 

*imagines the Leliana romance*

She would be the creepiest out of them.

[ejoslin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I deliberately used Alistair as an example for an underage girl because Zevran gets enough hate.

Edit: My copy and paste went bad.

Edit: Plus, placing the girl at 14 or 15 and Alistair at 21 or 22 puts a whole different dynamic on the courtship, doesn't it 

*imagines the Leliana romance*

She would be the creepiest out of them.

Oh ugh, you know, you're right.  26 year old Leliana with 14 year old city elf female. 

Yeh, I am completely convinced right there that all of the Origins are over 18 (I was convinced before, mind you, but that cements it -- NO company would open themselves up to that).

[Sarah1281]

ejoslin wrote...

I deliberately used Alistair as an example for an underage girl because Zevran gets enough hate.

Edit: My copy and paste went bad.

Edit: Plus, placing the girl at 14 or 15 and Alistair at 21 or 22 puts a whole different dynamic on the courtship, doesn't it 

It would make becoming a GW child abuse and Duncan one of the most despicable characters in the game for forcing a child's hand into a horrid life of slowly becoming a ghoul in order to save their life.

[ejoslin]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

*dislikes discomfort with teenagers ending up with much older men being called stupid*

No, i was rather thinking it'd be pretty stupid for people to take offense at what happens in a fictional universe modeled after medieval settings. Especially since going this route they should be equally up in arms about presence of slavery and number of other topics which aren't up to our current society standards.

Unless the point of the game is to make some sort of statement about historical accuracy which it isn't and isn't actually touched upon at all then why would they add something so needlessly controversial? 

Well, you look at it as adding something unnecessary for the sake of needless controversy. I look at it as airbrushing/sanitizing the settings when it should not be necessary in the first place -- i'd like to think people could be smart enough to recognize what's simply a fictional depiction of their own practices from the past. Much like that mentioned slavery, crusades, literal racism, feudal systems with people devoid of rights and number of other topics.

Heh, people are like that about sex.  Really, what had people SCREAMING from the religious right around here was nothing of the things you mentioned...  It was the male/male sexxor with Zevran.  If there was any hint of it being underage as well?  Or any of it being under age?  The city elf origin is violent enough that had there been any hint of the female being underage, there would have been a huge outcry from more than just the ones screaming about Zevran/male.

I'm not sure it's really airbrushing, however.  There are quite a few things that seem more modern.  In a truly medieval  setting, the HNF would be married, and most likely the HNM as well -- betrothed probably from the time they were children.  The HNF definitely would not be trained in war, at least not openly.

Women are given a lot more freedom in this setting.  There are a lot of women in the military.  That in and of itself suggests that women weren't expected to marry young.

Edit: I was trying to make several points.  I know this is rambling and not well put together, but hopefully it's at least coherent!  If not, I'll try again :innocent:

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 juin 2010 - 12:53 .

[Kryyptehk]

ejoslin wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

*dislikes discomfort with teenagers ending up with much older men being called stupid*

No, i was rather thinking it'd be pretty stupid for people to take offense at what happens in a fictional universe modeled after medieval settings. Especially since going this route they should be equally up in arms about presence of slavery and number of other topics which aren't up to our current society standards.

Unless the point of the game is to make some sort of statement about historical accuracy which it isn't and isn't actually touched upon at all then why would they add something so needlessly controversial? 

Well, you look at it as adding something unnecessary for the sake of needless controversy. I look at it as airbrushing/sanitizing the settings when it should not be necessary in the first place -- i'd like to think people could be smart enough to recognize what's simply a fictional depiction of their own practices from the past. Much like that mentioned slavery, crusades, literal racism, feudal systems with people devoid of rights and number of other topics.

Heh, people are like that about sex.  Really, what had people SCREAMING from the religious right around here was nothing of the things you mentioned...  It was the male/male sexxor with Zevran.  If there was any hint of it being underage as well?  Or any of it being under age?  The city elf origin is violent enough that had there been any hint of the female being underage, there would have been a huge outcry from more than just the ones screaming about Zevran/male.

I'm not sure it's really airbrushing, however.  There are quite a few things that seem more modern.  In a truly medieval  setting, the HNF would be married, and most likely the HNM as well -- betrothed probably from the time they were children.  The HNF definitely would not be trained in war, at least not openly.

Women are given a lot more freedom in this setting.  There are a lot of women in the military.  That in and of itself suggests that women weren't expected to marry young.

Edit: I was trying to make several points.  I know this is rambling and not well put together, but hopefully it's at least coherent!  If not, I'll try again :innocent:

I think that it depends on the family. Anora and Cailan were betrothed from a young age, and I imagined that if anyone wanted to increase their station, they would learn protocol and how to be like a lady. People who didn't care about raising their station or who were already as high as they could go (like the Couslands) probably would let their daughters marry for love and train in arms if they chose.

[ejoslin]

Hmmmm, that is true, but that is also the monarchy. Women are not looked upon as chattel in Ferelden, which is probably the biggest difference between this fictional setting and a true medieval one. I can't think of a single society where girls were married as soon as they reached menarche where many of them were in the military or independent in other ways. Instead, they were the property of their father until they became the property of their husband.  That does not seem to be the case here.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 juin 2010 - 12:56 .

[Kryyptehk]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, that is true, but that is also the monarchy. Women are not looked upon as chattel in Ferelden, which is probably the biggest difference between this fictional setting and a true medieval one. I can't think of a single society where girls were married as soon as they reached menarche where many of them were in the military or independent in other ways. Instead, they were the property of their father until they became the property of their husband.  That does not seem to be the case here.

I agree.

[Arttis]

there seems to be only 2 models of humans and elves of different ages.

Fully grown adult assuming it works like real life.Women would be at about 19 or 20 fully grown.Men about 20-22 fully grown.The children look maybe 10 years of age.

Since there are no children in the pearl anywhere I imagine it may be just a very young looking adult.It is fiction who cares make it up on your own until they specify.If you choose to believe they are talking about very young girls that is your imagination.

[Sarah1281]

Arttis wrote...

there seems to be only 2 models of humans and elves of different ages.
Fully grown adult assuming it works like real life.Women would be at about 19 or 20 fully grown.Men about 20-22 fully grown.The children look maybe 10 years of age.
Since there are no children in the pearl anywhere I imagine it may be just a very young looking adult.It is fiction who cares make it up on your own until they specify.If you choose to believe they are talking about very young girls that is your imagination.

It's really not. We don't see this underage girl, we just hear about her. Since no new model is required for someone who doesn't ever appear in the game and we are outright told that she is underage then we don't have to imagine that she is very young unless we're imagining that Ferelden is a land with a medieval age of consent in which case she would have to be young enough for the child model to work.

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

I'm not sure it's really airbrushing, however.  There are quite a few things that seem more modern.  In a truly medieval  setting, the HNF would be married, and most likely the HNM as well -- betrothed probably from the time they were children.  The HNF definitely would not be trained in war, at least not openly.

Women are given a lot more freedom in this setting.  There are a lot of women in the military.  That in and of itself suggests that women weren't expected to marry young.

I'd imagine there's some liberties taken to allow the player more freedom in their experience and/or how they make their Warden and their backstory. Plus yes, Ferelden does show some traits which are not present (or weren't until relatively recent) in some of their supposedly more advanced neighbours. But that actually makes me more careful about presuming everything there works just like it does in our own 21st century, than less.

Regarding women in the military, i'd imagine that's quite a viable route for these who for whatever reason can't or don't want to get married -- even if there actually was customary for them to get married young, there's always going to be some who won't find acceptable candidate (or aren't seen as one themselves). Some of these women we get to see can also already be married for that matter, there's certainly number of married men serving after all. All in all, their presence in the ranks doesn't really say much about what the Ferelden marriage customs actually are.

[Sarah1281]

tmp7704 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I'm not sure it's really airbrushing, however.  There are quite a few things that seem more modern.  In a truly medieval  setting, the HNF would be married, and most likely the HNM as well -- betrothed probably from the time they were children.  The HNF definitely would not be trained in war, at least not openly.

Women are given a lot more freedom in this setting.  There are a lot of women in the military.  That in and of itself suggests that women weren't expected to marry young.

I'd imagine there's some liberties taken to allow the player more freedom in their experience and/or how they make their Warden and their backstory. Plus yes, Ferelden does show some traits which are not present (or weren't until relatively recent) in some of their supposedly more advanced neighbours. But that actually makes me more careful about presuming everything there works just like it does in our own 21st century, than less.

Regarding women in the military, i'd imagine that's quite a viable route for these who for whatever reason can't or don't want to get married -- even if there actually was customary for them to get married young, there's always going to be some who won't find acceptable candidate (or aren't seen as one themselves). Some of these women we get to see can also already be married for that matter, there's certainly number of married men serving after all. All in all, their presence in the ranks doesn't really say much about what the Ferelden marriage customs actually are.

Women being allowed to join the military and being portrayed as reasonably equal to men (though not completely)  implies that the society as a whole allows women greater freedoms and societies that do this also often have the age that women get married pushed back closer towards modern norms instead of medieval ones.

[Arttis]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Arttis wrote...

there seems to be only 2 models of humans and elves of different ages.
Fully grown adult assuming it works like real life.Women would be at about 19 or 20 fully grown.Men about 20-22 fully grown.The children look maybe 10 years of age.
Since there are no children in the pearl anywhere I imagine it may be just a very young looking adult.It is fiction who cares make it up on your own until they specify.If you choose to believe they are talking about very young girls that is your imagination.

It's really not. We don't see this underage girl, we just hear about her. Since no new model is required for someone who doesn't ever appear in the game and we are outright told that she is underage then we don't have to imagine that she is very young unless we're imagining that Ferelden is a land with a medieval age of consent in which case she would have to be young enough for the child model to work.

Again all imagination.
If you want to imagine that your free to but do not get angry at devs or the game for your imagination.Is all i am trying to say.Bring up as many assumptions as you want about the game it is still your imagination.You can say its similar so it means this also must be similar but again imagination.
Lets not go overboard.

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

I can't think of a single society where girls were married as soon as they reached menarche where many of them were in the military or independent in other ways. Instead, they were the property of their father until they became the property of their husband.  That does not seem to be the case here.

This is a country which only 30 years earlier managed to regain independence, and then spent another few years getting rid of remaining Orlesians. There's bound to be plenty orphans who don't have fathers treating them as their property, and few men will want to marry a woman who can't bring any dowry when they can get one who's better off, instead. In addition, all that fighting is likely to have additional effect on the military -- as they run out of men who can fight they get quite less picky about who can actually serve. These factors combined can be one (obviously, one of many) possible explanations for what we get to see.