70 réponses à ce sujet

[Scarmiglion]

Like using most toolsets and applications in general, it's just perseverance. The level editor was giving me particular difficulty but I'm learning. Though there definitely is some issues and some more clarification via tooltips and the status bar would help in certain editors. But in the end you cannot expect it to be something it is not. It's a very powerful editor, and typically, power has to be traded with ease of use.



As noted above, start with one editor and learn to master it, and move to the next. As time goes by, more and more tutorials will end up on here, YouTube, etc. They're already starting to pop up!

[Dmuse]

Orkboy wrote...

The way I see it, a toolset like this should have a retard mode for people like me. - A mode that uses drop down menus and wizards on a par with NWN1 which lets us create simple adventures running simple scripts.

Why? What's the benifit to the community for this? A bunch of underdeveloped modules without any design or creation skill involved? Mind you, writing is another story, you CAN make a good module with some good writing...but even that becomes dull when you see the same basic 'stock' modules created by the 'wizards' in "retard mode" as you call it.  Anything good that is produced by this, will actually get lost in all of the other retard modules no?

While I'm not saying that Bioware made the toolset complex and hard to use purposely, it does in effect weed out the creations of those that don't have the dedication to make something decent.  It also, unfortunately, weeds out skilled designers who don't have a whole lot of time to sink into it however. I think in the long run though, you'll see things coming out by people who actually know what they are doing rather than a flood of "fluff" modules from people who just want to bang out another idea they had that is "So Uber kool" without having the knowledge/skills behind it to make it actually entertaining to play.

[BryanDerksen]

Spiffy tutorial video, st4rdog! I wanted to produce something like that myself but there never seemed to be any time for it. Wiki text is much easier to do piecemeal.



As for the learning curve, another thing to consider is that you don't necessarily have to learn every part of the toolkit in order to produce or contribute to a mod with it. There's nobody here at BioWare that works fluently with every part of it, we've got level artists and dialogue writers and tech designers who each specialize in their own field and who don't work with the other bits.



One of the goals of the social site is to help people form collaborative groups to complement each others' strengths. Or, for some resources like level layouts or head morphs, you could just produce a big bundle of resources and put them up for other people to use on their own.

[Tasker]

Why is it good?

Easy...
 
It's good because people that know how to use these super-duper powerful toolsets arn't necessarily the ones that make the good modules.

It's good because it maintains peoples interest in the game.

It's good because it stops people taking one look at the toolset and going "F-THAT! "
 
It's good because people making a simple modulea quite easily could end up with a hunger to learn how to make more complicated ones, thus becoming better for the community. 

It's good because you can spend more time actually making the modules instead of pulling your hair out by the roots as you try and work out what all the poorly explained functions are.

It's good because sometimes people just want to do thing by themselves at their own pace as not everyone has access to or want's access to a 24/7 fullblown dev staff,.


And yes, you can end up with a load of rubbish modules to plow through to get to the good ones, but i'd rather that than have to face empty promises and tumbleweed.

Modifié par Orkboy, 10 novembre 2009 - 08:13 .

[Amnesiac Jack]

I'm hoping as well that it becomes some what easier or at least a community member is able to put together a decent set of video tutorials to help an idiot like me learn.



I'm one of those people who love to write and might even have a few good ideas but so far the editor has scared me. I don't understand how to script and doubt I ever will (I've tried to learn but it doesn't click).



Just how much scripting does a person need to know any ways to make a working module complete with cut scenes, journal updates, and all that jazz? So far from what I've seen it's more than I'll ever know.

[freddern]

Well said Orkboy!



For me, the toolset is the most fun. I love creating my own adventures and I spend a lot of time doing this. I have never uploaded any mods but that's not the point. Playing games is fun! Making mods is fun!

[johnbgardner]

Fachir74 wrote...

as for the wiki, i can't log in, they say i have to have the cokies enabled and it is, all i get when i log in, is a white page.

This worked for me:
1. Delete cookies using Internet Options.
2. Exit browser.  (VERY important).
3. Open browser again.
4. You should be able to login again.

[Tasker]

freddern wrote...

Well said Orkboy!

For me, the toolset is the most fun. I love creating my own adventures and I spend a lot of time doing this. I have never uploaded any mods but that's not the point. Playing games is fun! Making mods is fun!

To be honest, i'm pretty much the same.

I never had any intention of uploading any of my modules as I knew they'd be rubbish, but I loved messing about in the NWN1 toolset, I'd never used a toolset before and thought it was great that I could create my own little adventures and try out things just to see if I could get them to work.

I managed to teach myself a few bits and bobs and I even managed to get a few scripts to work -  I was quite proud of myself when I managed to work out how to do a vendor that had different items depending on what sex the player was, and my auto closing door.

But after trying to get to grips with the NWN2 toolset I gave up in frustration having learned nothing at all.

Modifié par Orkboy, 10 novembre 2009 - 09:37 .

[wishmaster_96]

I agree that the toolset is quite powerful and that it will be nice not to see 5,000 modules to pan through 4,000 of just to find decent ones worth playing. However, even with the limited time I have had to actually run through the toolset it is blatenly obvious that there could be some improvements to it that would help even the more advanced users at creating content in a more timely fashion as well as allow them to spend more time on polishing their content.

As of yet the only files I have managed to open with it have all been basically spreadsheets listing crap that I don't even know what they correspond to. I know that they did not give us access to the original files this time around (unlike nwn's). This is probably the biggest mistake in the learning process. Why? The simplest answer is for alot of people what is the easiest way to learn.... to look at what has already been done. If you could load up even just the city start areas of the game you could most likely fairly easily find what is doing what and where thusly being able to reference that for your own content.

As of right now with the very limited time I have (I'm going to school for game art so I get very little time with as much work as I have there) I am trying to figure out in the simplest terms how to add a new race and/or a new class. I know a race is a fairly intensive task to look towards, but realistically all I "should" have to do is be able to reference a current one, copy the majority of it's scripts and what not, change it's display "label" and link in the new models that can be chosen. Then of course make the models for it. I'm also sure it would be more than that, but i'm dumbing down the process just to make the point.

However, with as steep as the curve is atm for the toolset even figuring out where or what or how the base races are setup let alone even work let alone what files are associated to eachother, that endeavor is going to be a LONG ways off if ever. And honestly I would think that it would be easier to figure out some of this as you would think a new race would be something that they would want to be able to impliment in the future weather through dlc or an expansion with ease even for themselves. Obviously they know how to do it already, but for workflow's sake I would just think they would want to make it even easier and quicker for themselvs as to not waste production time on it.

Laslty, from the bits I have had time to read about on the forums and such this seems to be the most or one of the most script intensive sets to accomplish even the simplest of things. Perhaps that is an over exageration or perhaps not.

Atleast the community seems to be better than most. DSWDalish is actually the first person I've seen post on here with an attitude. This is prob one of the biggest reasons I will likely continue with learning this kit. It's nice to not see a forum laiden down with a bunch of trolls and stuckup wenches.

Modifié par wishmaster_96, 13 novembre 2009 - 06:37 .

[Adinos]

wishmaster_96 wrote...
At least the community seems to be better than most. DSWDalish is actually the first person I've seen post on here with an attitude. This is prob one of the biggest reasons I will likely continue with learning this kit. It's nice to not see a forum laiden down with a bunch of trolls and stuckup wenches.

One reason for this may be that the average player age might be higher here. Also, the "console crowd" is probably ignoring the toolset forum.  There are many people here who have been active for a long time - worked with the NWN toolset and...well, that brings a certain professional attitude to the forum.

I just hope that BioWare manages to fix the main problems with the social site before the builders give up and move elsewhere.

[Livemmo]

I wouldnt say it's user unfriendly ...it just takes some effort to understand it. With that said, I dont think theres anyone on this board that knows exactly how to do everything the toolset has to offer. Just take your time, read the wikis on the areas you want to learn about, and let it come to you. Rome wasnt built in a day?

[Wolf Northwind]

The more features and the more power those features possess = the more complicated the tools need to be.



NWN had a nice toolset because the ewquirements were relatively basic. Taking the Oblivion toolset as a contemporary comparison it was a nightmare to learn because it allowed you to do tons more in terms of detail and customisation.

[Martymer]

AnTeevY wrote...

I like to compare it with Blender. When you first start it, you think it's the most complex and unintuitive program you've ever seen. But after a while, you'll see that it is not only powerful, but also the workspeed improves significantly.

Exactly.

People who expect something like NWN1 simply need to think about how limited that toolset was. It wasn't bad, but it didn't allow modders the freedom of more advanced tools. It's like it was made for people who wanted to slap a mod together over the weekend, and rely on a DM to provide the details and the atmosphere. Not saying that's a bad thing, but seeing as very few (relative to how many bought the game) played it that way, it's very clear to me why Bioware didn't want to keep things that way.

When NWN2 came along, people complained about how complex the toolset was. I found it much more pleasant to work with, because of all the freedom it gave. Sadly, I was never able to finish anything, but not due to the learning curve; my problem was that whenever Obsidian fixed one bug, the fix created two new ones. After one such fix, the mod I'd been working on for like a year broke and I realized that I had weeks of re-scripting to do, to get it to work again. At that point, I just said "f it, I'll wait for DA:O and make this mod there instead". And I intend to.

This toolset appears a little harder than NWN2's, but not that much, really. It's different, and some things will take a while to get used to. Plus, I'm fairly sure everything will take more time to do (even for an experienced user), but with much better results as the payoff.

[Wugger]

I was really looking forward to the editor to extend the long-livity of the game for me, seeing this thread I guess I'll just go back to Crysis editor and wait for programmers to unleash their modules.

[Scars Unseen]

Well, there's always RPG Maker if you want easy. File DA:O under "powerful".

[Arkenor Oakshadow]

You know, I think it is possible for a toolset to be powerful without being arcane.

You can bet that we don't have all the tools that the developers had, and we certainly don't have their documentation. In time, I suspect folks will make some more user-friendly tools and front-ends that will allow creativity to flow more freely.

Modifié par Arkenor Oakshadow, 13 novembre 2009 - 03:22 .

[Illthar]

Nowdays even powerfull tools can be user friendly. There's nothing, absolutly nothing that makes this tool more powerfull because it's not "user friendly."
My guess is that this tool is what it is because it was developed for the devs to work with. As BryanDerksen wrote, they were many people working with diffrent parts of the toolset, no one knew the toolset inside and out, every part of it.

If the toolset was created solely for the purpose of giving the community a chance to create modules, it could have been done easier, more user friendly without loosing it's power. Functionality and power does'nt erase oneanother.

Even so, this is the toolset we have and I see it as an huge bonus that they gave it to us. I'm thrilled and will try and learn it as good as I'm able to!

Modifié par Illthar, 13 novembre 2009 - 03:29 .

[grumpymooselion]

BryanDerksen wrote...

As for the learning curve, another thing to consider is that you don't necessarily have to learn every part of the toolkit in order to produce or contribute to a mod with it. There's nobody here at BioWare that works fluently with every part of it, we've got level artists and dialogue writers and tech designers who each specialize in their own field and who don't work with the other bits.

And there is that this toolset seems quite capable of quite a lot. There are some issues, like some having a hard time installing it . . . but overall it's really quite impressive. Though, I can't say it is user-friendly to any extent with a straight face, nor with any amount of honesty. The old NWN toolset was a good example of being very user friendly, I found it much more straight forward.

I'm just not entirely sure you can get the best of both worlds. There "was" something to be said for the lego-like approach to world building in NWN, but at the same time . . . not everyone wants to be limited to that. Hence, "I'm just not entirely sure you can get the best of both worlds."

[Smakit]

Janan Pacha wrote...
I'm just not entirely sure you can get the best of both worlds. There "was" something to be said for the lego-like approach to world building in NWN, but at the same time . . . not everyone wants to be limited to that. Hence, "I'm just not entirely sure you can get the best of both worlds."

I think few, if any, would disagree with you there. I think it more comes down to how far you move on that graph towards one extreme or the other. If you make it super easy, putting together 'blocks' to make an outdoor environment - obviously, you won't be able to create as diverse and 'good' looking terrain as one that allows you to morph the ground, change the lighting, etc.etc.

The problem is with regards to how user-friendly it is. The same exact 'power' can be had by making it easier to use (better docs, tooltips, explanations of what does what, layouts & designs, terminology, etc.).

If someone made a little box in the game with "Strength: " and you could type a number, then another one had "Brawn", located in a sub-menu in the toolbar, under advanced settings - one wouldn't be any more powerful than the other. One would just be easier. Granted, that is an absurd example, one not truly fitting here, but I think that is the basic idea some people are trying to get across. It can be just as powerful, but they personally don't like the way it is expressed to the user.

The problem, of course, is finding the balance, and you can never really please everyone. Me personally? I just want the kinks worked out, and I will be more than happy to figure this toolset out as is. =

[FalloutBoy]

Dmuse wrote...

Orkboy wrote...

The way I see it, a toolset like this should have a retard mode for people like me. - A mode that uses drop down menus and wizards on a par with NWN1 which lets us create simple adventures running simple scripts.

Why? What's the benifit to the community for this? A bunch of underdeveloped modules without any design or creation skill involved? Mind you, writing is another story, you CAN make a good module with some good writing...but even that becomes dull when you see the same basic 'stock' modules created by the 'wizards' in "retard mode" as you call it.  Anything good that is produced by this, will actually get lost in all of the other retard modules no?

Yes it will. NWN was flooded with boring simple modules. It was like the iPhone app store where it is so easy to make app's that everyone makes them and most of them aren't very interesting. NWN 2 was more difficult to use, but it yielded much better content. The best NWN 2 modules looked like professionally-made expansions.

From what I have seen of the DA:O toolset, it is about on par with NWN 2 in terms of toolset difficulty. But it also has a lot of really awesome features that I would have killed for in NWN 2 (I waste far too much time making faces in the morph editor). I expect that we will see some really awesome stuff from the community, assuming they ever give us a decent place to distribute mods.

[Elvhen Veluthil]

NWN2 toolset was way too friendly to use in my opinion in comparison to this one. But after a month or so with it things will get better I guess, so don't give up people.

Modifié par Elvhen Veluthil, 13 novembre 2009 - 06:36 .

[Amnesiac Jack]

Some of you people are weird.



You'd rather have almost no choices instead of many.



The good thing about an easy toolset is that regardless of how many bad ones get made, the good ones will always rise to the top because word of mouth and all of that. With a hard toolset you'll still get the crap mods but you're going to end up waiting months on end for a good one to show up and you'll have your heart broken many times as mods get canceled because people don't have the time to dedicate any more.

[Tasker]

Amnesiac Jack wrote...

Some of you people are weird.

You'd rather have almost no choices instead of many.

The good thing about an easy toolset is that regardless of how many bad ones get made, the good ones will always rise to the top because word of mouth and all of that. With a hard toolset you'll still get the crap mods but you're going to end up waiting months on end for a good one to show up and you'll have your heart broken many times as mods get canceled because people don't have the time to dedicate any more.

Pretty much what I said earlier.


In my opinion, all the people saying just suck it up and live with it as the toolset is complicated because it's powerfull are talking out of their backsides.

Just because it's powerfull doesn't mean that you should have to need a PHD in computer programing to use it. 

Why can't we all have our cake and eat it.

If people want to produce simple modules using a limited simpler interface and then others want to produce more compliceated ones using the full extent of a bells and whistles uber complicated interface, why shouldn't we be able to?

Having the option to switch between a simple and a complicated interface to do different things, can only benefit the comunity, not hinder it.

Modifié par Orkboy, 13 novembre 2009 - 07:30 .

[st4rdog]

For me I find this toolset quite easy. I think some people are just having a hard time getting to grips with the workflow. And I don't know any C++/C# etc.

Just how much scripting does a person need to know any ways to make a working module complete with cut scenes, journal updates, and all that jazz? So far from what I've seen it's more than I'll ever know.

Most of the scripts will be copy + pasted from examples. Wait until a month after the toolset's release and there will be examples of most things, I imagine.

You'd rather have almost no choices instead of many.

Can you give an example here?

Modifié par st4rdog, 13 novembre 2009 - 07:33 .

[Scars Unseen]

Amnesiac Jack wrote...

Some of you people are weird.

You'd rather have almost no choices instead of many.

The good thing about an easy toolset is that regardless of how many bad ones get made, the good ones will always rise to the top because word of mouth and all of that. With a hard toolset you'll still get the crap mods but you're going to end up waiting months on end for a good one to show up and you'll have your heart broken many times as mods get canceled because people don't have the time to dedicate any more.

I believe the phrase is "raising the bar".  If you look closely you will see a mirror of the gaming industry as a whole.  Back in the old days, anyone with a modicum of programming skills could make a game.  Teams were small if there was a team at all, and games were plentiful.  Some good, others bad, and a very few true gems.  Well, the technological bar got raised.  Games required more people and more money to create.  Not as many developers could afford to make games, and those that could found themselves spending a greater amount of time on each one.  Result?  Fewer games with  less overall bad ones, less overall good ones, but about the same number of gems. 

On the other hand, this really only applies to large mods and complete storylines.  Many people will specialize, creating, for example, replacement models/textures perhaps.  Some people, not wanting to mess with the editor themselves, yet possessing other relevant skills, will make modder's resources.  Eventually you will see more ambitious projects by both teams and individuals.  An individual might make, for instance, and overhaul mod.  A team might make a fully fleshed campaign complete with voice acting(though don't bet on the voice acting part in the majority of modules). 

This isn't something I'm just making up.  Look at Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Neverwinter Nights 2.  All of these games went through almost the exact progression I mentioned(leaving out the rough spots like the mod community having to create its own tools to bridge gaps in the dev provided tools).  Though I haven't had the chance to look at the Dragon Age toolset, my guess is that it isn't difficult, it just isn't obvious either.  The community will figure it out, and then we can stop complaining about how hard it is to use and start complaining about how it is so inadequate for X because it can't do Y.

Modifié par Scars Unseen, 13 novembre 2009 - 07:47 .