70 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

I agree with the OP. The toolset is too complicated, and you can eff up the original game accidentally (though it is easy to fix).

[freddern]

Have gone trough a few tutorials and the toolset is no longer that "impossible"

Have patience guys (and gals). The level editor is f***ing fantastic. You can make almost everything there!



Love you BIOWARE!!!!!!!!

[Obadiah]

The genius of the NWN1 toolset is that it allowed any idiot with the nucleus of a good idea to be able to bring a mod to fruition without screwing up the game. Thus there are many well written imaginative mods out there for NWN1 build by folks who only had a few weeks of free time.

This toolset is clearly to be used by collaborative professionals/hobbyists who may be able to get a separate campaign done within a year... maybe.

Or maybe this will be used mostly by us just to tweak the game. Certainly, there are loads of fun to be had there.

Modifié par Obadiah, 14 novembre 2009 - 01:25 .

[Paddywan]

For my part, I think that the new toolset has an incredible amount of potential for modders and designers. There are an absolute wealth of tools built into the editor that allow for tons of customization and flexibility. That being said, with more options comes a higher level of comlexity and therefore a higher level of difficulty. I have been modding since NWN1 came out and am very familiar with the NWN toolsets, and after only a few days of playing around with the Dragon Age Toolset (and putting the great resources of the community to use) I have already learned how to do a good portion of what I need to do to create my own modules. That being said, it is a continuous learning process, and, just as I am still learning new ways to use and abuse the NWN toolsets, the same will be for the DA toolset.



I must be feeling wordy today!



Basically, if you have the time and experience, the DA toolset has everything you need to make a sweet mod! Now... how about some multiplayer capabilities, Santa?

[Allen63]

The tool set is hard. I'm one of those who would need a "long time" to become facile (particularly relearning mostly forgotten C++ for scripting). I may not go that far -- as my "tweaks" don't need much modding talent. I've made my few added item mods -- they are easy. And, those mods fix a lot, for me.

Still, the tool set is hard. Yet, I wouldn't have it any other way. With such a powerful tool set, the modding gurus here will make some outstanding content, fixes, and even a DA:O overhaul or two -- that I can merely download and use In fact, I already have

Modifié par Allen63, 14 novembre 2009 - 04:51 .

[giskard44]

I spent a few hours trying to find out how to create a mod using advice on the wiki and found the wiki information assumes I already know how to use the tool kit on the very pages that try to tell me how to use the tool kit. For example, take a look at the character generation tutorial, it says save off your script.... but does not explain how, and theres no Save your script here option either.



So its not very helpful and contains many obmissions that noobies need to be told about before they will be able to use the wiki to learn the toolset.



But it is a common for tutorial writers to forget who they are writting tutorials for, in fact the better the writer the more likely that will happen. And it appears to have happened on the wiki.



But Cid has some videos out that did remember noobies would be watching and based on what I saw in his vids, I was able to easily do some simple things in the toolkit. Its not actually that hard, its just not something you would think of doing unless your told to do it first.



And that is why the toolkit appears to be hard, its just poorly laid out.

At least thats my findings so far.



I think once we learn it, it will appear to make more sense.

[Tasker]

Aye, I have to agree about the wiki.

I've tried it too and to be honest a lot of it makes less sense than the toolkit does.

The wiki should have step by step tutorials on how to do the different things, listing each and every thing and why it's being done that way,  then it might make things easier.



Also, how many times are people going to use the whole " It has to be overly complicated because it's powerfull", excuse for how difficult the toolset is to use?  Just because it's powerfull doesn't mean it can't be user friendly..

Modifié par Orkboy, 14 novembre 2009 - 07:18 .

[SilentCid]

Can always check my signature to a place that might help you.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Orkboy wrote...
Also, how many times are people going to use the whole " It has to be overly complicated because it's powerfull", excuse for how difficult the toolset is to use?  Just because it's powerfull doesn't mean it can't be user friendly..

Yes, it does.  It's a development tool not a toy.  User-friendly editors such as Far Cry 2's Level Creation or similar stuff you see in LittleBigPlanet are user-friendly but they're also limited in functionality.  The DA toolset lets you modify almost every aspect of the game and quite frankly is fairly straight forward compared to some editors. (The palette window is excellent)  Just have a bit of patience for more comprehensive tutorials to come out or experiment yourself.

Expecting a toolset to be "easy to use" and to expect step by step tutorials within a week of the toolset being released is just silly.  That said, SilentCid's video tutorials should be exactly what you're looking for.  After those you should have a good idea of how the basic structure of the toolset works.

[Tasker]

When a company uses the fact that the game comes with a toolkit as a selling point, then the toolkit should not be retardedly complicated or bug ridden and should come with instructions.

At no point have I said that it shouldn't have the interface and functionality that it currently has, only that it should have an "OPTIONAL" wizard driven front end for those of us that havn't spent years learning how to program.

If you want to use it as it is then how would an "OPTIONAL" wizard driven front end effect you?  Easy it wouldn't, but "NOT" having one effects "ME".

[Allen63]

Yup, the development time needed to make a "comprehensive" tool set "easy to use" would be prohibitive. So, one gets "easy to use" but "limited". Or, comprehensive (basically the developer's tool set they used) and "hard".



As has been intimated, its not that hard except for knowing the sequence of steps needed to do any particular thing. I call that I/O (input/output). I/O is frequently not logical -- or has peculiar logic. So, one is not a fool for being mystified by DA tool set I/O.



As it is, I am sure Bioware has simplified the DA tool set interface compared to what the developers minimally needed to develop DA.

[giskard44]

SilentCid wrote...

Can always check my signature to a place that might help you.

Thanks for the vids Sid, you did a good job on them

I was expecting the usual fussy unreadable video image that was utterly useless as a tutorial, which is usually how vids turn out but yours are crystal clear and very easy to follow. I bet you enjoy making them

[BFBHLC]

johnbgardner wrote...

Fachir74 wrote...

as for the wiki, i can't log in, they say i have to have the cokies enabled and it is, all i get when i log in, is a white page.

This worked for me:
1. Delete cookies using Internet Options.
2. Exit browser.  (VERY important).
3. Open browser again.
4. You should be able to login again.

Didn't work.

[Tasker]

Allen63 wrote...

Yup, the development time needed to make a "comprehensive" tool set "easy to use" would be prohibitive. So, one gets "easy to use" but "limited". Or, comprehensive (basically the developer's tool set they used) and "hard".

As has been intimated, its not that hard except for knowing the sequence of steps needed to do any particular thing. I call that I/O (input/output). I/O is frequently not logical -- or has peculiar logic. So, one is not a fool for being mystified by DA tool set I/O.

As it is, I am sure Bioware has simplified the DA tool set interface compared to what the developers minimally needed to develop DA.

I understand where you're coming from, I realy do, but an optional wizard driven front end, doesn't have to try and emulate everything that the toolset can do.

It only has to provide the basics, and while I admit I haven't gotten very far with the toolkik, i'm betting a hell of a lot of the toolkits' functions and variables that have to selected and entered over and over again, could be automated and linked to simple wizard options.

Also, if as you said, the toolkit has no option but to be this complicated due to the amount of effort it would take to make a new front end and that it isn't actually hard at all if you follow the right steps, then where are those steps listed?  The wiki while an awsome idea, is currently written as if you should already know how to use the toolkit and just need a reminder.  As I said earlier it needs proper "click this", "select that", step by step tutorials.

And it's ok saying use the tutorials and movies that other users have posted, and although some of them seem to be excellent, who's to say that their way is the correct way for doing things and won't bugger other stuff up?

Even Obsidian realised an overly complicated toolkit was a mistake with their NWN2 toolset, they started to add wizards, but it was too little too late and the only people left at that point that could be bothered with the toolkit or the game anymore, were those that had been there from the start and didn't need the wizards by then.

Modifié par Orkboy, 14 novembre 2009 - 08:35 .

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Orkboy wrote...
And it's ok saying use the tutorials and movies that other users have posted, and although some of them seem to be excellent, who's to say that their way is the correct way for doing things and won't bugger other stuff up?

Half of using creative tools like this is trial and error.  If you wanted the toolset to make stuff for you then it becomes a toy and not a development tool.

Yes, there is a learning curve.  It's not a very steep one at all compared to some development tools I've seen over the years.

[SilentCid]

giskard44 wrote...

SilentCid wrote...

Can always check my signature to a place that might help you.

Thanks for the vids Sid, you did a good job on them

I was expecting the usual fussy unreadable video image that was utterly useless as a tutorial, which is usually how vids turn out but yours are crystal clear and very easy to follow. I bet you enjoy making them

There are times I want to choke myself and have to do another retake to make it just right. Overall I am pleased on making them.

[Tasker]

SilentCid wrote...

giskard44 wrote...

SilentCid wrote...

Can always check my signature to a place that might help you.

Thanks for the vids Sid, you did a good job on them

I was expecting the usual fussy unreadable video image that was utterly useless as a tutorial, which is usually how vids turn out but yours are crystal clear and very easy to follow. I bet you enjoy making them

There are times I want to choke myself and have to do another retake to make it just right. Overall I am pleased on making them.

I should have said earlier - Thank you Mr SilentCid for your tutorial video, as you say, it's only the basics but it's much clearer than the wiki.  ( I'd recommend bluring out your login on the game menu though, you never know who's looking. )
 
If the toolset absolutely had to be as complicated as it is, then this is exactly the type of thing that I would have loved for Bioware to produce to accompany it. 

[beastlier]

BFBHLC wrote...

johnbgardner wrote...

Fachir74 wrote...

as for the wiki, i can't log in, they say i have to have the cokies enabled and it is, all i get when i log in, is a white page.

This worked for me:
1. Delete cookies using Internet Options.
2. Exit browser.  (VERY important).
3. Open browser again.
4. You should be able to login again.

Didn't work.

Click the "log in" words at the upper right of the page instead of the center. You can log in using your e-mail/password that you use to log into social.bioware.com.

[st4rdog]

Orkboy wrote...

If the toolset absolutely had to be as complicated as it is, then this is exactly the type of thing that I would have loved for Bioware to produce to accompany it. 

You'll have a moment of realisation within 1 week where you'll realise that this toolset is actually not complicated at all. I'm finding this far easier than the NWN2 editor.

[indio]

st4rdog wrote...

Orkboy wrote...

If the toolset absolutely had to be as complicated as it is, then this is exactly the type of thing that I would have loved for Bioware to produce to accompany it. 

You'll have a moment of realisation within 1 week where you'll realise that this toolset is actually not complicated at all. I'm finding this far easier than the NWN2 editor.

QFT.

[CaptBurn]

As a project manager specializing in details in tech and media development, I will only say that anyone who thinks somehow that 'harder' equates to 'more powerful', or whatever, is probably sadly misinformed. In fact, it's quite the opposite. In the real world, 'easier' equates to 'more powerful' because it allows faster and better productivity which leads to better creativity (let's face it, in this type of design/build work it really is creativity that matters when it comes to the quality of the mod).



I'm not trying to disrespect anyone in the thread with my comments, so please don't take it as such; however, I do believe the correct term we are looking for here is 'robust'. The question should be 'Is the toolset any more robust as it relates to it's difficulty?' Maybe. But, most likely, it's not. I would argue it could be just as robust with a far more intuitive and easier interface, no problem.



But...



Is it worth it for Bioware to spend the resources to develop a more intuitive interface? No. Most definitely not. They don't make money off the toolset, persay. It's a selling point and addresses specific community demands; however, it's no the profit center here. As such, I would not expect them to make a really cool, easy to use, toolset. But, rather, I would expect them to take what they have and simply port it over so those that care enough can work with it. This is probably a lesson they learned long ago with NWN where they built the toolset to meet requirements for even novices at tremendous cost. It was a ground-breaking endeavor back then, but without the online ability to maintain persistent worlds, etc., it just does not seem feasible for DA:O.



That said, I think the toolset is what it is and that's that. We can only hope that individuals who do have the skills to actually use it well are also creative enough to put those skills to good use. I definitely do not see any correlation between the difficulty and the end quality of mods; however. Difficulty and mastering it is certainly no measure of creativity. The good mod to bad mod ratio (I would argue) is going to be the same regardless of the difficulty of the toolset... Maybe even skewed a tad towards more bad given all the truly creative minds out there that won't be able to even approach it since creativity is left brain and development is right brain.



I will certainly give major props to those who do manage to create fantastic mods that bring creativity with them.