34 réponses à ce sujet

[fireblade80]

Hi!

I noticed all the threads witnessing the overpoweredness of the mages and cannot help but agree. The proposed solutions seem to suggest eliminating some powerful spells and spell combinations and / or limiting the number of mages in the party.

I thought of a different solution: no lyrium potions allowed. The consequences that I envision are the following:
- requires intelligent use of spells in combat, not just continuous casting
- healer / nuker clear separation of responsibilities, since mana becomes a premium resource to conserve
- willpower changes into an important stat for mages, as important as magic
- shapeshifting becomes a nice specialization, to be used in lengthy battles after mana has been depleted
- blood magic gets even more powerful, as suggested by the lore, being used after mana has been exhausted
- sustained abilities affecting the party (such as Cleansing Aura) are rendered much more powerful and a better alternative to continuous Heal / Group Heal casting
- afterthought passive abilities such as Arcane Mastery and Staff Focus rise to prominence, as attacks with the staff become an integral part in a mage's strategy

I would like to know your opinions on this simple, but, in my oppinion, effective balancing idea for mages!

[The Blue bird]

Whilst it seems an effective way to balance the problem mages have. You'd need a reason as to why lyrium potions are no longer available. As they are fairly ingrained in Mage and Dwarven lore

[fireblade80]

The Blue bird wrote...

Whilst it seems an effective way to balance the problem mages have. You'd need a reason as to why lyrium potions are no longer available. As they are fairly ingrained in Mage and Dwarven lore

Well, the reason is in the game lore. Lyrium develops addiction over time, while damaging the bodies and minds of the consumers. Tevinter mages were literally disfigured by years of heavy use of lyrium and many templars become senile at the end of their careers, unable to distinguish fact from fiction.

It is not explicitely stated, but rather understood that mages use lyrium only on special ocasions (such as entering the fade awake), unlike templars (who use it regularly) and the Tevinter mages of old (who severely abused lyrium).

[Aulis Vaara]

I do not see why everyone thinks mages are overpowered. They are mighty, yes, but so is any other class decently built. In fact, I had an easier time playing a Warrior than I had playing a Mage.

[DWSmiley]

There is a mod similar to that over at dragonagenexus, though I don't have the llink. It extends the cooldown of lyrium potions to 30 seconds and applies it to all of them, i.e., each mage only gets to drink one lyrium potion per fight. The mod does the same thing for health potions, so it's really designed for people who find nightmare mode too easy. Dunno if you can apply just the lyrium mod and not the health.

Modifié par DWSmiley, 18 juin 2010 - 01:25 .

[LandarenRNS]

....

It's a single player game, you don't need "balance"

[fireblade80]

LandarenRNS wrote...

....

It's a single player game, you don't need "balance"

You do need balance, just not at the level of finesse required by MMORPG's.

[Erani]

Aulis Vaara wrote...

I do not see why everyone thinks mages are overpowered. They are mighty, yes, but so is any other class decently built. In fact, I had an easier time playing a Warrior than I had playing a Mage.

I agree. Mages are powerful but I killed more/faster as a two-handed rogue

[Sidney]

Lyrium potions won't change 95% of your encounters. Most non-boss fights don't last long enough for the lyrium to come into play. It is really only in those types of extended fights i even go for the potions.



I'd have no problem with lyrium degrading your mage over time so if people are constantly guzzling the things they would suffer penalties but do people really spam these things?

[Xeremius]

fireblade80 wrote...

Hi!

I noticed all the threads witnessing the overpoweredness of the mages and cannot help but agree. The proposed solutions seem to suggest eliminating some powerful spells and spell combinations and / or limiting the number of mages in the party.

I thought of a different solution: no lyrium potions allowed. The consequences that I envision are the following:
- requires intelligent use of spells in combat, not just continuous casting
- healer / nuker clear separation of responsibilities, since mana becomes a premium resource to conserve
- willpower changes into an important stat for mages, as important as magic
- shapeshifting becomes a nice specialization, to be used in lengthy battles after mana has been depleted
- blood magic gets even more powerful, as suggested by the lore, being used after mana has been exhausted
- sustained abilities affecting the party (such as Cleansing Aura) are rendered much more powerful and a better alternative to continuous Heal / Group Heal casting
- afterthought passive abilities such as Arcane Mastery and Staff Focus rise to prominence, as attacks with the staff become an integral part in a mage's strategy

I would like to know your opinions on this simple, but, in my oppinion, effective balancing idea for mages!

Very good idea, but as it is a single player game, I don't understand why you need a special mode to play as you would like to...
State your own rules :" no potion except one per boss fight " for instance and that's it your special mode is made

[Arttis]

Chantry uses lyrium to control thier army so addiction is not good enough reason.

I imagine adding engineers who are mage killers will make being a mage more difficult and require you to spend more points in Con or Dex.Or need more sustained defensive spells that would require you to increase your willpower.

[jselene]

My opinion is that, more than anything, mages need to have less durability. Make them more "glass cannon"-y, and voila! But yes, lyrium potions should be rarer (not, non-existent, just more expensive and harder to find.)



My greatest fear is that all the "mages are overpowered!" whining will lead to totally nerfed, underpowered magic in DA2. Aren't mages supposed to be overpowered, lore-wise? I know that there needs to be a balance between story and gameplay, but when they differ too much, it really starts to bother me.

[Loc'n'lol]

Welcome to 7 months ago.

[ladydesire]

fireblade80 wrote...

The Blue bird wrote...

Whilst it seems an effective way to balance the problem mages have. You'd need a reason as to why lyrium potions are no longer available. As they are fairly ingrained in Mage and Dwarven lore

Well, the reason is in the game lore. Lyrium develops addiction over time, while damaging the bodies and minds of the consumers.

If you notice, Origins does not have Stamina Potions like were added to Awakening; the reason for this is that Bioware had originally planned to have Lyrium Potions actually become less effective over time as you used more of them but since Mana and Stamina use the same game engine mechanic, it would have also affected the Stamna Potions.

[Domyk]

The only reason mages "feel" overpowered is due to the Artificial Intelligence. Player character mage can sit back and cast spells all day as his frontline party members attract all the attention.

[Jestina]

Mages are supposed to be powerful.

[Wicked 702]

Echoing what others have said, this is a single player game. It doesn't need "balance." I FINALLY have a game where the mage isn't a permanently squishy weakling that has to hide behind the "tank" and I can actually have fun running around and blasting away. If you don't like it then introduce your own challenges into the mix by limiting potion/spell usage or whatever.



Besides, mages in this fantasy world are SUPPOSED to be the most powerful (Tevinter Imperium anyone?). I personally like the way it is and might even want more power to the mages.

[Arttis]

I can solo a highdragon on my mage without doing anything special other then healing and staff attacks*no Super gear*

I think they do not need any more power.

[Swoo]

Arttis wrote...

I can solo a highdragon on my mage without doing anything special other then healing and staff attacks*no Super gear*
I think they do not need any more power.

That's not a mage only thing though.

I took on Ser Cauthrien and her entire posse with just my Rogue and two itty-bitty daggers, and completely wrecked them.

I think a properly built player of any class can just decimate the game.

[Arttis]

Swoo wrote...

Arttis wrote...

I can solo a highdragon on my mage without doing anything special other then healing and staff attacks*no Super gear*
I think they do not need any more power.

That's not a mage only thing though.

I took on Ser Cauthrien and her entire posse with just my Rogue and two itty-bitty daggers, and completely wrecked them.

I think a properly built player of any class can just decimate the game.

try taking on a high dragon solo without doing anything special and you would get killed.
Only a mage could handle that fight like a white mob that you did not want near you except with a ton of health.

Modifié par Arttis, 19 juin 2010 - 02:36 .

[Nobody Important]

Can't we just have the lyrium addiction system David Gaider said was cut from the game? I think that would balance it out nicely.

[Loc'n'lol]

Arttis wrote...

try taking on a high dragon solo without doing anything special and you would get killed.

Not really... having a good enough armor (any T6-T7 massive) means you can survive the grab attack no problem. The dragon doesn't bother with fire attacks when you engage it in melee (not that it would matter anyway, a warrior can brush it off), and health potions can take care of the rest, so it's totally doable if only a little boring. An archer would do okay with just healing too...

@OP: agree with every single one of your points, except the premise -and cleansing aura, that's a terrible example, it drains 10 mana every 1.5 seconds while active-.
Basically, mages aren't particularly unbalanced, it's just easier to figure out their broken stuff, and in fact they are pretty squishy unless you're still playing with the infinite shimmering shield version. If you remove the lyrium potions entirely, they become totally useless when they run out of mana, and you may as well take 2rogues, 2warriors and no mages for maximal efficiency.
Now, put some limits on lyrium, do the same for health potions and improve the other means of gaining health, mana and stamina while limiting the unreasonably high values for monsters and we could have something more interesting and fair.

[Arttis]

Depends on the warrior.

And depends on the amount of potions you have.

My mage could keep the fight going forever.

[Swoo]

Arttis wrote...

try taking on a high dragon solo without doing anything special and you would get killed.

No you wouldn't. It's been well documented how easy you can solo the game with multiple spec's. A daggermaster dex rogue can easily do what you say, I've done it, I've seen other players characters who have done it. If you can't be hit, then it doesn't matter.

[Arttis]

Swoo wrote...

Arttis wrote...
try taking on a high dragon solo without doing anything special and you would get killed.

No you wouldn't. It's been well documented how easy you can solo the game with multiple spec's. A daggermaster dex rogue can easily do what you say, I've done it, I've seen other players characters who have done it. If you can't be hit, then it doesn't matter.

A high dragon has moves that always hits.
Also they do not start out unhittable and only become unhittable with the help of special equipment.

Ive played with a lvl 25 rogue with eveyrthing in dex you do not get hit a lot but you are far from unhittable.Without special gear.

Modifié par Arttis, 19 juin 2010 - 03:14 .