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[Ecael]

This is Part 2 of Building Consensus.
Part 1
Part 2

Before we start, I would like to request a Quartermaster for the Normandy to handle all trading licenses, preferably one experienced with trade organizations:

(Click for full image)

Revision 1: Looting and Ammo

A. Loot
If we want loot to make sense both in gameplay and story, there should be only 4 types of things to pick up from enemies, assuming the thermal clip system is still in place:

• Ammo
• Credit chits
• Weapon Parts/Armor Scraps
• Biotic/Omni-tool Technology

Not only that, but squadmates should automatically pick up loot if they're closer to it than Shepard is. They have hands too, don't they? This allows for a more "realistic" looting without always forcing you to run around looking for every last thermal clip on the ground. It also encourages the player to stay and fight to get the loot instead of skipping entire missions and dialogues with Tactical Cloak or any similar ability.

The Weapon parts, Armor scraps and other salvaged technology would not automatically go to Cerberus or some other organization to be sold, but can be used at the Research Terminal as a "token" system to build weapon mods, armor mods, ammo mods, or even tools, weapons and armor themselves. More on this in the next section...

For now, I'll suggest two more things:
1. The types of parts that drop depend on the enemy (Vanguard/Adept/Engineer hostiles will drop BioTech more often, Soldiers will drop armor and weapon parts...) That way, the mission you choose to do first can have an effect on your item progression. If you're a biotic, you should choose to do biotic-heavy missions first to have an easier time with the rest of the missions.

2. These scraps, minerals and credits can also be interchangable with the help of a certain scientist salarian.

(Click for full image)


If you let Mordin die in the final mission (shame on you!), you don't get the benefit of converting - you'll have to rely solely on what you get on each mission or planet. For those who saved Mordin, there's still a delay on how much or how often you can convert your extra parts or resources. Thus, even as a cameo and not a squadmate, Mordin can be very useful.

B. Thermal Clips
Thermal clips were retconned to balance the gameplay and better distinguish each weapon. However, the way it was written into the story was a bit sketchy since the way guns behaved didn't match the description. How do we account for that in ME3 using both ME1's and ME2's gameplay structure? With these two things:

• 12 - Universal Thermal Clips remaining
• 1 - Shots before overheat (for that specific gun)
• LAST - Status of the weapon you just switched from
• Blue bar - Current "temperature" of gun
• Red Bar - Your last weapon is still cooling from overheat - you did not choose to waste a thermal clip on it.

Make thermal clips truly universal by having one cache to reload from for any non-heavy weapon. One clip equals one reload. At the same time, when a gun runs out, you can either reload by manually reloading or let it cool by waiting/switching to another weapon. You cannot, however, let it cool if the gun is only "partially empty" - only if you're completely out for that thermal clip.



If you don't want to manually reload every time, that's where this option comes in - Auto Reload will be enabled by default (with a keyboard/controller shortcut to enable or disable), but if you need to conserve thermal clips or wait out the duration, you can toggle it off at any time.

This essentially fuses both systems while staying simplistic, falls in line with the written retcon, and gives the player an added element of strategy - should you use a thermal clip on this weapon, wait, or should you switch to another one?

Revision 2: Mods and Upgrades

"Lots of Items, but no real Inventory Screen?"

It's a weird statement, but lots of items can still exist without having to deal with redundant items or constant switching of mods between squadmates.

(Click for full image)


The weapon modifications research menu would be something like this:

• --Weapon Modifications--
• Weapon Mod Upgrade (V to VI)
• Combat Optics
• Improved Sighting
• Frictionless Materials
• etc.

Once a modification is researched, it can be equipped for any squadmate. The first option listed (Weapon Mod Upgrade) upgrades all weapon mods to the next level, but the cost is exponential. And what would it cost, exactly? Instead of randomly looting all kinds of intact armor and pristine weapons off enemies, you're looting salvage from them to use back on the Normandy (as said in the first section).

Ammo, on the other hand, would be bought from hub worlds (infinite use) and would be equipped by Shepard to be shared with the squad. "Rare" or hard to find schematics can also be purchased from specific merchants, unlocking a very powerful researchable mod. Everything will be configured in the loadout screen before each mission:

(Click for full image)

• Weapon Mod Slot
• Armor Mod Slot
• BioTech/Cybernetics Slot
• Item Slot (Ammo Slot for Shepard)

This makes inventory management a lot less painful, because there's no worry about inventory space or which squadmate currently has the Scram Rail you need. Each slot serves a specific purpose - the last one being for ammo and consumable items, which I will discuss in the next section. Note that weapon mods apply to both weapons that the squadmate is carrying, so you must choose wisely for which mod will best fit their primary weapon (and secondary if necessary).

Also, along with getting a weapon training upgrade halfway through the game (ala Disabled Collector Vessel), Shepard can also get an extra weapon, armor, biotech or item slot. This further increases customization for the player, because some will choose a different slot depending on their offensive or defensive playstyle.

Revision 3: Consumable Items and Item Stats

Two things Mass Effect seems to disregard are item stats and consumables - one-time use items with a cooldown, requiring you to buy more (in stacks, if necessary) to keep using them. Medi-gel and grenades was similar to this, but you couldn't buy more from stores - you restocked at boxes or terminals in each mission.

A. Consumables

(Click for full image)


Licenses allow your Normandy Quartermaster to start selling certain consumables (so you don't have to run back to a hub world to buy them). Grenades are given to squadmates, while Shepard uses heavy weapons. Some grenades can only be used by specific squadmates, like the Warp Grenades shown above. Other examples:

• Red Sand Pouch - Boosts biotic power temporarily
• Stimulant Pack - Increases weapon damage whenever a combat power is active
• Surge Generator - Increases tech damage temporarily
• Medi-gel - Revives Shepard if close to death
• Extra Power Cells - Squadmate can help reload a heavy weapon if needed

Only one item can be carried by one squadmate at a time.

Of course, many of these items will have drawbacks - for example, red sand in combat causes a temporarily health loss, stimulant packs prevent all regeneration, while surge generators have a chance of breaking the user's shield. Extra power cells can increase the chances of a heavy weapon backfire for Shepard, like so:

(Click for full image)


I always thought heavy weapons were cheap, anyway...

B. Item Stats
A variation of Terror_K's item info picture (link here), this picture illustrates the numbers that should accompany the information on any weapon used:

(Click for full image)


Heat dispersion refers to the approximate number of shots before overheat (as in Mass Effect 1). An option to have the screen display codex information is also included, if someone doesn't want to look at the numbers. This reduces screen clutter while also providing valuable information that would normally be found on a forum thread or the Mass Effect Wiki.

Revision 4: Weapons and Squad Armor

I saved the best (or the worst) for last, mainly because a solution to this is dependent on how time-consuming designing squadmates can be. The squadmate armor in Mass Effect 2 is suspiciously low-resolution, but still a lot more detailed and unique from each other compared to anything picked up in the previous game. With 17 possible squadmates for ME3 and probably more to be added, the question I ask is this - would you rather:

• Have several choices of armor for each squadmate
  
  or
• Have your 2 favorite characters return as squadmates - not cameo roles?

Remember, 16 of the 17 squadmates can die at some point (making them easier to cameo), while Liara can just be given the role of quest-giver NPC. At the other extreme, if they were to all return as squadmates, designing several sets of custom armor to fit each and every one of them would be impossible. That is why I'd prefer only two outfits for each squadmate:

• Combat Armor - includes customizable masks/helmets and the ability to change the palette/color scheme like Shepard's armor
• Casual Appearance - the outfit they wear on the Normandy when not in combat

Of course, DLC can add more options for either of the two. This makes it easier for the art team to work on adding more detail to the outfits that are already there, without sacrificing customization (consider all the mods I suggested throughout the thread).

(Click for full image)

No more skin-tight armor!



Criticisms? Suggestions? Comments?

Modifié par Ecael, 19 juin 2010 - 05:00 .

[Nightwriter]

Oh, I REALLY like it Ecael. Yeah. Something I always thought...

You know, I think creating, building, and modding weapons and armor would be a lot better if they just made the whole process more interactive.

Instead of seeing a computer interface where we just click on something to build it or mod it and it happens automatically, we see instead a direct first-person view of the lab table as if we are standing over it, the weapons, armor, or parts spread out before us.

We move the cursor over specific parts, and when we highlight them the item pops up and enlarges. We can then choose to apply that part to armor and weapons – or build armor and weapons ourselves. And watch it happen.

[Ecael]

Nightwriter wrote...

Oh, I REALLY like it Ecael. Yeah. Something I always thought...

You know, I think creating, building, and modding weapons and armor would be a lot better if they just made the whole process more interactive.

Instead of seeing a computer interface where we just click on something to build it or mod it and it happens automatically, we see instead a direct first-person view of the lab table as if we are standing over it, the weapons, armor, or parts spread out before us.

We move the cursor over specific parts, and when we highlight them the item pops up and enlarges. We can then choose to apply that part to armor and weapons – or build armor and weapons ourselves. And watch it happen.

That's a great idea - it's very reminiscent of the Trauma Center games on the DS or Wii. It might actually be a fun BioWare mini-game to play!

[TelexFerra]

I love you Ecael

[Clover Rider]

Man you need a job at BioWare that is all.

[Onyx Jaguar]

A conversation between me, kriady and Collider echoed some of these ideas

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

They could add more armor/costume types/weapon finds (like they ddid with upgrades) in the environment. But what they can't do is the same as ME 1 which was pretty much a diablo clone inventory while missing the point. It would unbalance the game which they came a long way with in ME 2.

kraidy1117 wrote...



I like that idea, we did that with the weapons, so Bioware could try that with armor and such, but keep ME2 system. It's not perfect but it's alot better then ME inventory *shutters*

Collider wrote...

I tend to think of the whole crate and lock things are largely unnecessary in general. In ME1 there was waaayyy too many items Shepard could get, it clogged the inventory and most of it was useless crap. In ME2 I'm not a fan of the crates but at least it's not everywhere. I find much better would be getting items from defeating specific enemies - say you kill those mercenary leaders on Garrus' recruitment mission, you get one of their rifles. It's much more satisfying than opening some random box that for some reason has stuff in it for you to use.

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

The ME2 inventory system (loadouts) works nicely, but in comparison to lets say a Ubisoft Tom Clancy game (Ghost Recon and R6 use similar things) they could expand the loadout to include more weapons and costume selection.

Onyx Jaguar wrote... (in response to Collider)

*OR* Bring back the licenses. For instance as rewards for missions you obtain a license for a set of items (armor customization and whatnot) and you use the private terminal to order such items.

[MrNose]

Red Sand is pretty addictive though. Wouldn't making it a consumable sort of interfere with the lore?

[Nightwriter]

Anyway, man, Ecael, that’s some great stuff.

I know a lot of people liked the new no-inventory system but for me it felt like a lot of what makes a game feel like a game to me got gutted. Everything felt emptier.

I especially liked the way you’ve brought stats back in your example. I NEED to see weapons stats, it’s a huge part of weapon and game progression for me, watching my weapons get steadily better and being able to see it visually.

[Foolsfolly]

Every time I see an Ecael thread I know I need to get comfortable and prepare for a long read. Always enjoyable, of course, but a long read.



About your ammo system, there's a lot of ammo system suggestions that take into account the new codex entry for the thermal clips. While most suggestions are well thought out and would vary the game and add additional strategies....there is a point where it's not fun. Having a universal clip and having to worry about that at all times would limit the fun.



Without playing your system I can't really tell how fun it will be but I managing too much just in an ammo system is not considered fun to many players. It's just ammo and securing and saving ammo for valuable/strong weapons is enough strategy for many players. Adding any more to that may alienate new players or even existing players.



It's a concern that must be given some thought. Mass Effect is a work of art and it's wonderfully done but it must also compete in a competitive industry and must attract new players with each game or it'll grow stale and sells will fall.



Onto your Mods and Upgrades.



Love it. Simply love it. Only thing that hit me as unneeded was the buying of ammo. Starting each level with full ammo just seems to make sense for a large well equipped fighting force. Why would you leave the ship without full ammo anyway? Especially since the Armory can apparently recreate weapons and ammo through minifactoring technology or some such handwave.



But that Mod and Upgrade System is a thing of brilliance.



Consumables I'm a bit meh on. I don't miss them in Mass Effect but they could have a place in ME3. However, heavy weapon backfire would completely invalidate even using the heavy weapons. You save ammo and only use it when you need it. If it had a chance to backfire then its importance is lessened and thus it's use would suffer. It's like the Cain. It does a lot of damage, takes a long time to fire....and then it has a chance to backfire making all that ammo gathering and standing in the line of fire to shoot it a complete waste. I know the backfire would only happen while using a certain consumable item but since it would invalidate the heavy weapon such a consumable would rarely be used unless it offered something as significant as a heavy weapon.



Item Stats are needed. Period. I use the ME wiki for weapon stats, I shouldn't have to. It should be listed in-game.



Squad Armor I have no opinion on. As long as the AI learned to take cover and regen when they're close to death I really can't care what they look like. I will say, I did like how you could get everyone to have a uniform look...but at the same time I really liked how the ME2 characters all had individual uniforms. So no opinion on this one.

[cachx]

I'm sold on everything.

Well, except the consumables part. how would that look in the battle ui ? doesn't seem right, variety is ok, as long as it doesn't bring unnesary clutter. I would stick with (moddable)grenades and medi-gel only. Kasumi and Zaeed are going to need new powers too



Also, how about Shep's own armor? still keeps the mix & match from ME2? or a single moddable armor?

[Dracotamer]

I agree 100%. This was lacking greatly in ME2. Also armor for squadmates etc.

[CroGamer002]

I didn't like much idea for Thermal Clip, but for rest I'm for it.

[Ecael]

cachx wrote...

I'm sold on everything.
Well, except the consumables part. how would that look in the battle ui ? doesn't seem right, variety is ok, as long as it doesn't bring unnesary clutter. I would stick with (moddable)grenades and medi-gel only. Kasumi and Zaeed are going to need new powers too

Also, how about Shep's own armor? still keeps the mix & match from ME2? or a single moddable armor?

Since each squadmate can only carry one item (or a stack of one item) at a time, it would just add another button on the HUD (like a bonus power).

Foolsfolly wrote...

About your ammo system, there's a lot of ammo system suggestions that take into account the new codex entry for the thermal clips. While most suggestions are well thought out and would vary the game and add additional strategies....there is a point where it's not fun. Having a universal clip and having to worry about that at all times would limit the fun.

Without playing your system I can't really tell how fun it will be but I managing too much just in an ammo system is not considered fun to many players. It's just ammo and securing and saving ammo for valuable/strong weapons is enough strategy for many players. Adding any more to that may alienate new players or even existing players.

Actually, I think it's the opposite - having limited ammo that you either have to buy or search for is very commonplace in any game with guns. Mass Effect 1 tried to deviate from the norm, but I'm sure they had to retcon and revamp it for the sake of gameplay balance at some point.

Onto your Mods and Upgrades.



Love it. Simply love it. Only thing that hit me as unneeded was the buying of ammo. Starting each level with full ammo just seems to make sense for a large well equipped fighting force. Why would you leave the ship without full ammo anyway? Especially since the Armory can apparently recreate weapons and ammo through minifactoring technology or some such handwave.

To clarify, Shepard would buy the ammo schematic at a hub world and - after researching it - would be able to use it permanently any time the player desires. Thus, it would be like Mass Effect 2 where you'll always start the mission with full ammo, but this time ammo powers don't take up an ability in some squadmate skill sets.

Consumables I'm a bit meh on. I don't miss them in Mass Effect but they could have a place in ME3. However, heavy weapon backfire would completely invalidate even using the heavy weapons. You save ammo and only use it when you need it. If it had a chance to backfire then its importance is lessened and thus it's use would suffer. It's like the Cain. It does a lot of damage, takes a long time to fire....and then it has a chance to backfire making all that ammo gathering and standing in the line of fire to shoot it a complete waste. I know the backfire would only happen while using a certain consumable item but since it would invalidate the heavy weapon such a consumable would rarely be used unless it offered something as significant as a heavy weapon.

You have to admit, it would be funny to watch the first few times.

Reminds me of Wile E. Coyote:

Item Stats are needed. Period. I use the ME wiki for weapon stats, I shouldn't have to. It should be listed in-game.

Yup. The developers will eventually release the information anyway after being asked about it enough times, so I don't see why it shouldn't already be in the game.

http://social.biowar...8/index/1143264

Squad Armor I have no opinion on. As long as the AI learned to take cover and regen when they're close to death I really can't care what they look like. I will say, I did like how you could get everyone to have a uniform look...but at the same time I really liked how the ME2 characters all had individual uniforms. So no opinion on this one.

Being able to change the palette of each uniform would go a long way in making your squad customizable in terms of looks, though.

Better yet, they could allow modders to make armor pieces for the squadmates themselves.

All in all, I appreciate the response.

[Chuvvy]

Yes.

[Chuvvy]

Yes.

[Terror_K]

This is simply AWESOME!



Seriously... this is the type of thing I'd like to see in ME3. Every single thing here is epic win, and a great way of adding depth to ME2's shallowness without it being clumsy like ME1's systems.



BioWare... hire this person right the **** now!

[Sledge454]

Ecael wrote...

Niftu Sandal:  Great Wind Quartermaster and Biotic Mods God

The thermal clip display ( is sorely needed.

Modifié par Sledge454, 19 juin 2010 - 12:33 .

[philiposophy]

Some very good ideas there, Ecael.

[DragonFire6464]

Extremely good idea

[TK Dude]

That's a pretty good idea. This is really what ME3 needs.

[Lord_Tirian]

Most of it reads well and sounds interesting - the only thing I don't really like are consumables. The AI will never use it correctly and micromanaging consumables is a bother.



I'd rather make medigel moddable, so after the application of medigel, you and the squad get some bonus for a couple of seconds - standard medigel would give short regeneration, stimulant medigel extra weapon damage and so on.



This is essentially piggybacking on an existing system and won't add real micromanagement and would also reward the use of medigel - instead of just ducking in cover and waiting for the autoheal to kick in (in case of having a wounded Shep).

[Inverness Moon]

It would be criminal for BioWare to not pay attention to this great collection of ideas and suggestions.

[TelexFerra]

But they will



If they released a DLC called "Building Consensus" which implemented all of Ecael's suggestions then I would be truly happy.

[Pacifien]

I've had a couple thoughts on how the system could be changed in ME3.

Ammo
Ammo powers is ridiculous. There's no reason a soldier should be able to use an incendiary round while an engineer can't. However, I do like the idea of limiting when a type of ammo power can be used. Certain guns should be able to handle certain ammo types. Something like this:
M-9 Tempest SMG: accepts Disruptor / Cryo
M-12 Locust SMG: accepts Incendiary / Armor-Piercing

Upgrades
Instead of having the ability to obtain all upgrades, there should be an upgrade tree where you can follow certain branches which will limit others to you. An Infiltrator perhaps follows a path to get a sniper rifle upgraded, but it limits how much one can then upgrade a pistol. Engineers focus on upgrading tech, but then can't fully upgrade biotics.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

First of all a Volus to deal with trade licenses and sales, hell yeah! That was one of the ideas I had IF we have a Normandy full of aliens in ME3. I just hadn't thought of Niftu Cal.

Looting? ME2 showed looting is one of the most unnecessary things ever on an RPG, but I don't mind if they're well handed and this way would be fine. Nice one.

Thermal clips part I saw some similar ideas in Scarecrow’s Compendium of Proposals to BioWare for Mass Effect Gameplay Improvements. Have you seen it Ecael? If not, it's one of best threads I ever found on these forums. It's a long but nice read. I like the ideas of themal clips and overheating.

Upgrades? I'm very ok with it. But, I like the idea of only one slot for weapon/ammo/armor upgrade. It would give some kind of customization but it wouldn't make it overpowered or too cheap (a problem in ME1) and it would make it simple.

Consumables? I don't know. ME2 was fine without them ALTHOUGH the idea of squadmates using it is very very nice. Just don't make the heavy weapons back fire as Foolsfolly said, it would kill their purpose. Some of them being you have to charge and there are already a lack of ammo, it would be very frustrating and it wouldn't make sense you carry a big weapon that can explode in your hands.

Item stats are ok. But please, all these numbers would be a nightmare to choose a weapon. Make on a 1-5 scale or it would be terrible mess of numbers that don't really make that big of a difference (see ME1). Also, remove accuracy, let it be the player's skill for gameplay's sake. I think it's stupid to measure a character's accuracy in a shooter game by not player skill. I don't really know it worked on ME1 (never played soldier or noticed the lack of accuracy in a weapon) but the I don't really like the idea in first place.

About armor? I don't like the idea of full armors for squadmates. I want pieces like N7 Shep and build them the way I like. More work for the developers.

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 19 juin 2010 - 04:58 .