166 réponses à ce sujet

[Terror_K]

The trick is to make no, or at least very few, guns obsolete and useless.

For example, you have a selection like this:-

HAND CANNON #1
Damage: 140
Rate of Fire: 80
Accuracy: 55
Heat Dispersion: 40

Vs. Barrier: 2.0x
Vs. Shield: 2.0x
Vs. Armor: 0.5x
Vs. Health: 1.0x

---

HAND CANNON #2
Damage: 200
Rate of Fire: 40
Accuracy: 50
Heat Dispersion: 20

Vs. Barrier: 1.0x
Vs. Shield: 3.0x
Vs. Armor: 1.0x
Vs. Health: 0.5x

---

HAND CANNON #3
Damage: 100
Rate of Fire: 100
Accuracy: 70
Heat Dispersion: 80

Vs. Barrier: 0.5x
Vs. Shield: 0.5x
Vs. Armor: 2.0x
Vs. Health: 2.0x

---

HAND CANNON #4
Damage: 150
Rate of Fire: 70
Accuracy: 60
Heat Dispersion: 30

Vs. Barrier: 1.0x
Vs. Shield: 1.0x
Vs. Armor: 1.0x
Vs. Health: 1.0x

---

HAND CANNON #5
Damage: 250
Rate of Fire: 20
Accuracy: 50
Heat Dispersion: 10

Vs. Barrier: 3.0x
Vs. Shield: 3.0x
Vs. Armor: 0.5x
Vs. Health: 0.5x

etc.

Modifié par Terror_K, 22 juin 2010 - 12:10 .

[Nightwriter]

Lumikki wrote...

This picture is perfect example as idiotic game design. +3

To have upgrades and better stuff it should never been hunting +1, +2 or +3 numbers, what has no connection to any reality at all. This isn't some fantasy game with magical numbers without any meaning at all.

Meaning those numbers has to be connected to reality where we live. You have found armor material upgrade what provides +12% better physical protection. You have found new kind of ammo technology what could improve you weapon damage 15%.  You have found new kind ammo clip design what double you ammo capacity.

What's the different? The numbers and how it's used makes actualy sense to reality, not just magical way to handle situation. It's about does the game become numbers or are numbers just science reality for the game.

But nothing about the game has to be tied to reality. This is a game mechanic. Meaningless numbers are everywhere. A non-biotic Shepard can learn Slam. Which is impossible. You can learn an ardat-yakshi power. Also impossible. It doesn't matter.

Lumikki wrote...

Looting corpses to every case some enemy dies. HELL NO THANKS. Looting corpses very rare cases, because there just happen to be some new technology. Sure, It's fine. I don't want this game to be turned to some looting items games. WTF are you people thinking, this isn't some traditional RPG loot for +2 items game. Get the this idiotic stuff out of my face and come back to reality what Mass Effect games are. This game is not some fantasy traditional roleplaying games to collect best item. The focus should never be about items, they aren't important, items just provides customation. Story is the main point, items are just tools.

I disagree. The game felt gutted. Tossing out the inventory system ("dumbing down" the game mechanics, what have you) might fly if there's a great plot to fall back on, but there wasn't. Instead it felt empty, and all the emptier because the usual game mechanics were just gone.

I don't mind looting enemies, based on Ecael's system. ME2 was just all these endless combat scenarios where I waded through hordes of endless mercs again and again, and the fact there was nothing at all worthwhile to pick up along these dreadfully monotonous missions made it ten times worse.

I feel items are important. Part of my sense of the progression of the game is intertwined with the progression of items as the equipment I pick up gets steadily better. I like finding items. I like using items. In ME2 this stuff was utterly useless. Different armor pieces did so little stat-wise as to be useless. You just pick what looks good.

[TelexFerra]

size matters

Modifié par TelexFerra, 22 juin 2010 - 02:51 .

[nelly21]

I just want them to bring back the graphic texture delay. I miss that...

[glacier1701]

 Overall the initial post is good in what it presents yet the idea of both licenses and a Quartermaster I find to be out of place. The dropping of licences in ME2 was a good thing in so far as it never really made sense in ME1 especially when you got to the Specter gear. At that point it was game over so to speak in what you loaded up. So those licences did not really matter after that. Thus not seeing them in ME2 was fine especially if you do decide to get back your specter status since you get the best. So in ME3 you should already have a selection of guns/heavy weapons available. In game what you would get is mods for those weapons, experimental weapons (a lot of the heavy weapons we got in ME2 fit into that category) and unique custom modded weapons picked up from mercs or bosses. As such then you do not really need a Quartermaster but more of an Armourer.

 So replace the Quartermaster with an Armourer. What that person does is to ensure you have the best euipment from the start (plus any that carry from ME2). They would always be up to date on what is available from The Citadel or Illium or Paloven or Earth (Hub Worlds). To be up to date on secondary worlds or worlds outside of Council Space you'd have had to visit them once and made contact with merchants there. So then in future if something unlocks you dont have to go searching for it either its available on ship OR the armourer recommends a visit to that world because of the chance of getting a mod.

 What else you need is 2 other items - a thermal clip maker and a heavy weapon ammo maker. These pieces of machinery could be bought (mission to do so). This would mean that when going on a mission after you had these pieces of equipment you'd always have a full load. (The same for some sort of medi-gel produced in med bay.) Use of the above may mean using resources but that makes resources a bit more meaninful. And you can always tie in achievements to non-use of these pieces of equipment (NO WASTED SHOTS - did not need to produce thermal clips as every shot counted).

Those are about the only things I would change. Sorry about the kinda of mess but havent had time to really put this into a more formal form.


NOTE: Oh and the armourer could advise you on what is the best weapon or ammo for situations. They could say something like "I hear you are going up against heavy mechs - those armour piercing mods we got really do a number of them. You might also consider taking the CAIN in case you run into several YMIRs at one time."

Modifié par glacier1701, 22 juin 2010 - 05:01 .

[TelexFerra]

nelly21 wrote...

I just want them to bring back the graphic texture delay. I miss that...

Texture popping?

[Michalsky]

A lot of good ideas here!



I'm lookingg forward to see that in ME3.

[Ecael]

glacier1701 wrote...


 Overall the initial post is good in what it presents yet the idea of both licenses and a Quartermaster I find to be out of place. The dropping of licences in ME2 was a good thing in so far as it never really made sense in ME1 especially when you got to the Specter gear. At that point it was game over so to speak in what you loaded up. So those licences did not really matter after that. Thus not seeing them in ME2 was fine especially if you do decide to get back your specter status since you get the best. So in ME3 you should already have a selection of guns/heavy weapons available. In game what you would get is mods for those weapons, experimental weapons (a lot of the heavy weapons we got in ME2 fit into that category) and unique custom modded weapons picked up from mercs or bosses. As such then you do not really need a Quartermaster but more of an Armourer.

 So replace the Quartermaster with an Armourer. What that person does is to ensure you have the best euipment from the start (plus any that carry from ME2). They would always be up to date on what is available from The Citadel or Illium or Paloven or Earth (Hub Worlds). To be up to date on secondary worlds or worlds outside of Council Space you'd have had to visit them once and made contact with merchants there. So then in future if something unlocks you dont have to go searching for it either its available on ship OR the armourer recommends a visit to that world because of the chance of getting a mod.

NOTE: Oh and the armourer could advise you on what is the best weapon or ammo for situations. They could say something like "I hear you are going up against heavy mechs - those armour piercing mods we got really do a number of them. You might also consider taking the CAIN in case you run into several YMIRs at one time."

I think we both agree here that having to run back to a hub world we already visited for upgrades is sort of a timesink, but unlocking crucial upgrades is already done by the linear mission system. That is, places like Illium and Tuchanka are inaccessible before a certain point in the game is reached.

Having someone on board the Normandy to keep track of things still available on hub worlds compared to the Armory is definitely a good idea, though.

How about Jacob and/or Ashley?

If both are dead, you lose the ability to track purchases. Heavy risk...

What else you need is 2 other items - a thermal clip maker and a heavy weapon ammo maker. These pieces of machinery could be bought (mission to do so). This would mean that when going on a mission after you had these pieces of equipment you'd always have a full load. (The same for some sort of medi-gel produced in med bay.) Use of the above may mean using resources but that makes resources a bit more meaninful. And you can always tie in achievements to non-use of these pieces of equipment (NO WASTED SHOTS - did not need to produce thermal clips as every shot counted).

Those are about the only things I would change. Sorry about the kinda of mess but havent had time to really put this into a more formal form.

The heavy weapons ammo is more of a gameplay balancing mechanic than anything. If we could start making our own ammo, then BioWare would have to balance it with the heavy weapon backfire idea listed in the original post.

[SpectreSeven]

BioWare should release some modding kits

[Ecael]

v1K0 wrote...

BioWare should release some modding kits

They would if Mass Effect ran on a BioWare game engine.

It makes modding very limited as a result.

[SnakeHelah]

LOL Enhancements!

[TelexFerra]

Can't someone modify unreal editor?

[Dracotamer]

I also think weapons should have heat dispersion like in ME1. I modded my C.ini so all weapons regenerate ammo slowly when not firing, however, if I continue to fire and run out of ammo A.K.A overheat, I can remove the heat clip to instantly get full ammo. This makes clips useful, while still keeping true to ME1 style weapons.

[Urazz]

Nice read Ecael and there are some good ideas there.

On ammo, I didn't care for your idea.  I'd prefer Dracotamer's idea much more.  It would be a balance of ME1's system with ME2's system.  As long as they make the regeneration slow enough that you can't rely on it in the middle of a fight without slowing things down big time, it'll work wonders and can make fights alot more intense.

On the inventory and upgrades, I think we don't need weapon and mod upgrades similar to ME1.  ME2 had it right with the upgrade system but they can just add in more of them.  I don't think we need various versions of combat optics and stuff like that.  One upgrade to that weapon increasing it's accuracy would work wonders (like the assault rifle accuracy upgrade in ME2).

Having to buy the various types of ammos works great as well and would save skill points (though they would have to work on more soldier skills then instead of just having ammos).  But this would have a problem of having squadmates with no ammos to share.  Maybe give squadmates a mini inventory for some items like carrying various ammo types, medigel, or a heavy weapon (one of the weaker ones), etc.  I.E. a squadmate has 3 equipment slots so you can give Jacob the inferno ammo mod, a faster shield regen mod, and a medigel slot, or you can give him all medigel slots, or use all 3 slots for a heavy weapon that has limited ammo per mission.  For balance sake, there will be a limit on the kinds of heavy weapons the squaddies can use (no Cains for everyone.).

The squad armor thing is definately a must though.  It was annoying to see everyone but Shepard, Zaeed, Garrus, and Grunt in armors and it was annoying to see almost everyone wearing only an oxygen mask in open space vaccum like on the collector ship.

[kregano]

Dracotamer wrote...

I also think weapons should have heat dispersion like in ME1. I modded my C.ini so all weapons regenerate ammo slowly when not firing, however, if I continue to fire and run out of ammo A.K.A overheat, I can remove the heat clip to instantly get full ammo. This makes clips useful, while still keeping true to ME1 style weapons.

Bioware play tested that system and found that a ton of people burned through the clips, then started playing more conservatively once they got down to the last clip, prefering to rely on the regen instead of trying to get new clips. Christina Norman confirmed this back on the old ME forums.

Urazz wrote...
Having to buy the various types of ammos works great as well and would save skill points (though they would have to
work on more soldier skills then instead of just having ammos).  But this would have a problem of having squadmates with no ammos to share.  Maybe give squadmates a mini inventory for some items like carrying various ammo types, medigel, or a heavy weapon (one of the weaker ones), etc.  I.E. a squadmate has 3 equipment slots so you can give Jacob the inferno ammo mod, a faster shield regen mod, and a medigel slot, or you can give him all medigel slots, or use all 3 slots for a heavy weapon that has limited ammo per mission.  For balance sake, there will be a limit on the kinds of heavy weapons the squaddies can use (no Cains for everyone.).

Well, if we go with a full armor customization
system for the squadmates like Shepard has in ME2, then we wouldn't need
a slot for a faster shield regen mod, since it would be part of the
character's armor. That would open up an equipment slot and allow for greater tactical flexibility.

Modifié par kregano, 26 juin 2010 - 01:05 .

[Dracotamer]

Well, regardless I feel the old system was fine, and the way they have it now makes no sense, even when they re-wrote the lore. I balance between both systems would be good. I hope Bioware is reading this thread because it is pure gold!

[bandfred]

When I first heard of thermal clips, I thought it was going to be exactly as you described them in this thread.

If there are any changes for ME 3, it would need to be those within this thread's OP. Especially the looting and squad armor aspects.

The only two things that get close are female turians and a batarian squadmate.

Modifié par bandfred, 27 juin 2010 - 01:21 .

[Rivercurse]

This (post 1) is outstanding work Ecael

[Ecael]

kregano wrote...

Dracotamer wrote...

I also think weapons should have heat dispersion like in ME1. I modded my C.ini so all weapons regenerate ammo slowly when not firing, however, if I continue to fire and run out of ammo A.K.A overheat, I can remove the heat clip to instantly get full ammo. This makes clips useful, while still keeping true to ME1 style weapons.

Bioware play tested that system and found that a ton of people burned through the clips, then started playing more conservatively once they got down to the last clip, prefering to rely on the regen instead of trying to get new clips. Christina Norman confirmed this back on the old ME forums.

Hmm... it seems that the idea of squadmates auto-looting ammo nearby (as mentioned in my original post) would help this immensely. As long as you're still killing, you don't have to worry much about ammo. However, if you're not accurate and you waste ammo, you suffer the penalty of having to wait.

An animation wouldn't even be required - just have the squadmate yell out every once in a while.

Modifié par Ecael, 27 juin 2010 - 02:05 .

[Ecael]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Always love a good Ecael post, but I do have to nitpick one thing.



This is all fine and dandy, but not when it's used to compare to another weapon. This is a problem I had with the original ME and games like Borderlands. Stats for the sake of stats. I dislike the placebo effect that "something with bigger numbers > something with smaller numbers.' gives people when there is no noticable difference between the two.

Well, it's not so much stats for the sake of stats, but for the sake of clarification. The descriptions of weapons in Mass Effect 2 were very vague - "moderately effective" compared to "effective" didn't give the player much information on how the weapons were different.

For example, there needs to be some kind of tangible difference between this gun, and lets say, a gun with 60 accuracy. Larger and tightened crosshairs, some kind of visual cue to show this gun is indeed more "accurate" (and similar logical solutions to the other stats listed) and things of that nature.

I do agree with this part. It all depends on how interactive they want to make the HUD.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ecael, you deserve a Bioware scholarship, followed by conscription into the Bioware design team. No choice on your part, but hey, some sacrifices have to be made. Completely straight up, you put better thought into system/game design than a lot of games seem to do.





I especially like the idea for a consumable slot. A passive armor slot for (more) upgrades like in ME1 could be interesting: I loved the N7 armor customization of ME2.

[KarmaTheAlligator]

I wouldn't mind the way the looting system was in ME1, but we should have at least the option to not pick up something if we don't want to. Instead we were stuck with looting everything and ended up with a lot of clutter.

[adam_grif]

This runs into a bit of a problem - why are "gun parts" worth any money? Warships like the Normandy literally build any gun it has the schematics to at will. Perhaps the "salvage" from guns could be the small eezo cores, which would net you credits.

Then you'd use the credits to fund research projects. None of this "mine platinum k?" ballocks. I know that's what you're trying to avoid too, but I think it's a better idea just to pool it from credits. Now, as it stands in ME2, this would be a problem because of the extremely limited number of credits available. But of course, this salvage would be a partial solution to that.

The "loot" we get in ME2 comes in the extremely limited form of scanning new weapons. There isn't anything wrong with this, it's just that there isn't enough of it. Given that you're proposing (and I fully support) the reintroduction of weapons and armor mods, these would provide a huge number of things to "loot" off bodies and the like.

Ergo, we satisfy the looting urges that Diablo 2 instilled in me, while avoiding any "silly" mechanics that are there JUST as gameplay conceits (i.e. planet mining).


Metal Gear Solid 4's economy is quite good. The first time you pick up a new weapon off a dead enemy, it gets added to your collection, but is "locked". You need to spend money to get the weapon "unlocked" (the weapons only fire for their owner, so you have to pay osmebody to hack the weapon so it will let you use it). But when you pick up another of that weapon off somebody else, since you already have it you sell it for cash.

This is basically the system I propose, but with some minor ME window dressing - you pick up/scan a weapon, then all subsequent weapons of that type get "salvaged" for cash. The minor difference is that you get that weapon for free, but have to pay money for research projects and upgrades.

ME2's interface was totally focussed on the idea of being "invisible" whenever possible. In keeping with it's design goal of minimalism, a superior interface would be one that displays CURRENT WEAPON, and heat status in detail, and then simply has a small icon for the other weapon surrounding your weapon, but they are only displayed if the weapons are overheated.

This is exactly like the cooldown for squadmates display , exxcept it has gun silhouettes and a colour. There is no actual meter, instead the colour shifts from red down to white, then disappears when it's ready to fire again.


Additionally, I don't like the idea that partilaly-heated guns can't cool down. I absolutely think they should. Basically, the cooldown should be quite a bit slower than ME1, passively. Not enormously, but perhaps 30-50% longer to cooldown without popping a heatsink as the default (-insert name- 1) weapons. This way, there is an insentive for you to use the thermal clips, even if you're keeping your heat under control (relatively speaking), but it still makes sense. The idea that a gun can't cool down unless it's been TOTALLY OVERHEATED doesn't make any sennse.

[Ecael]

adam_grif wrote...

This runs into a bit of a problem - why are "gun parts" worth any money? Warships like the Normandy literally build any gun it has the schematics to at will. Perhaps the "salvage" from guns could be the small eezo cores, which would net you credits.

Then you'd use the credits to fund research projects. None of this "mine platinum k?" ballocks. I know that's what you're trying to avoid too, but I think it's a better idea just to pool it from credits. Now, as it stands in ME2, this would be a problem because of the extremely limited number of credits available. But of course, this salvage would be a partial solution to that.

The "loot" we get in ME2 comes in the extremely limited form of scanning new weapons. There isn't anything wrong with this, it's just that there isn't enough of it. Given that you're proposing (and I fully support) the reintroduction of weapons and armor mods, these would provide a huge number of things to "loot" off bodies and the like.

Ergo, we satisfy the looting urges that Diablo 2 instilled in me, while avoiding any "silly" mechanics that are there JUST as gameplay conceits (i.e. planet mining).

Metal Gear Solid 4's economy is quite good. The first time you pick up a new weapon off a dead enemy, it gets added to your collection, but is "locked". You need to spend money to get the weapon "unlocked" (the weapons only fire for their owner, so you have to pay osmebody to hack the weapon so it will let you use it). But when you pick up another of that weapon off somebody else, since you already have it you sell it for cash.

This is basically the system I propose, but with some minor ME window dressing - you pick up/scan a weapon, then all subsequent weapons of that type get "salvaged" for cash. The minor difference is that you get that weapon for free, but have to pay money for research projects and upgrades.

That does bring clunky inventory management back into the picture, however. If whatever is looted off a corpse is a resource rather than an item, it becomes much easier to manage.

If it gets auto-salvaged, then plot-wise it doesn't make sense, even if it is the quickest way to solve this problem. Automatically grabbing a piece of technology only for it to be sent to Cerberus is... suspect, in my opinion.

ME2's interface was totally focussed on the idea of being "invisible" whenever possible. In keeping with it's design goal of minimalism, a superior interface would be one that displays CURRENT WEAPON, and heat status in detail, and then simply has a small icon for the other weapon surrounding your weapon, but they are only displayed if the weapons are overheated.

This is exactly like the cooldown for squadmates display , exxcept it has gun silhouettes and a colour. There is no actual meter, instead the colour shifts from red down to white, then disappears when it's ready to fire again.

Additionally, I don't like the idea that partilaly-heated guns can't cool down. I absolutely think they should. Basically, the cooldown should be quite a bit slower than ME1, passively. Not enormously, but perhaps 30-50% longer to cooldown without popping a heatsink as the default (-insert name- 1) weapons. This way, there is an insentive for you to use the thermal clips, even if you're keeping your heat under control (relatively speaking), but it still makes sense. The idea that a gun can't cool down unless it's been TOTALLY OVERHEATED doesn't make any sennse.

As kregano said, Christina Norman already tried to implement this exact gameplay mechanic in Mass Effect 2. It didn't work out well.

People need to be ushered into switching weapons from time to time.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Ecael wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

This runs into a bit of a problem - why are "gun parts" worth any money? Warships like the Normandy literally build any gun it has the schematics to at will. Perhaps the "salvage" from guns could be the small eezo cores, which would net you credits.

Then you'd use the credits to fund research projects. None of this "mine platinum k?" ballocks. I know that's what you're trying to avoid too, but I think it's a better idea just to pool it from credits. Now, as it stands in ME2, this would be a problem because of the extremely limited number of credits available. But of course, this salvage would be a partial solution to that.

The "loot" we get in ME2 comes in the extremely limited form of scanning new weapons. There isn't anything wrong with this, it's just that there isn't enough of it. Given that you're proposing (and I fully support) the reintroduction of weapons and armor mods, these would provide a huge number of things to "loot" off bodies and the like.

Ergo, we satisfy the looting urges that Diablo 2 instilled in me, while avoiding any "silly" mechanics that are there JUST as gameplay conceits (i.e. planet mining).

Metal Gear Solid 4's economy is quite good. The first time you pick up a new weapon off a dead enemy, it gets added to your collection, but is "locked". You need to spend money to get the weapon "unlocked" (the weapons only fire for their owner, so you have to pay osmebody to hack the weapon so it will let you use it). But when you pick up another of that weapon off somebody else, since you already have it you sell it for cash.

This is basically the system I propose, but with some minor ME window dressing - you pick up/scan a weapon, then all subsequent weapons of that type get "salvaged" for cash. The minor difference is that you get that weapon for free, but have to pay money for research projects and upgrades.

That does bring clunky inventory management back into the picture, however. If whatever is looted off a corpse is a resource rather than an item, it becomes much easier to manage.

If it gets auto-salvaged, then plot-wise it doesn't make sense, even if it is the quickest way to solve this problem. Automatically grabbing a piece of technology only for it to be sent to Cerberus is... suspect, in my opinion.

ME2's interface was totally focussed on the idea of being "invisible" whenever possible. In keeping with it's design goal of minimalism, a superior interface would be one that displays CURRENT WEAPON, and heat status in detail, and then simply has a small icon for the other weapon surrounding your weapon, but they are only displayed if the weapons are overheated.

This is exactly like the cooldown for squadmates display , exxcept it has gun silhouettes and a colour. There is no actual meter, instead the colour shifts from red down to white, then disappears when it's ready to fire again.

Additionally, I don't like the idea that partilaly-heated guns can't cool down. I absolutely think they should. Basically, the cooldown should be quite a bit slower than ME1, passively. Not enormously, but perhaps 30-50% longer to cooldown without popping a heatsink as the default (-insert name- 1) weapons. This way, there is an insentive for you to use the thermal clips, even if you're keeping your heat under control (relatively speaking), but it still makes sense. The idea that a gun can't cool down unless it's been TOTALLY OVERHEATED doesn't make any sennse.

As kregano said, Christina Norman already tried to implement this exact gameplay mechanic in Mass Effect 2. It didn't work out well.

People need to be ushered into switching weapons from time to time.

I don't think they should. Except heavy pistols (which are mostly useless), the guns are tied up to classes or different situations. I think the player should use different weapons because the situations says so, not because they ran out of ammo.

MGS4 economy system is indeed very good, I wouldn't mind Bioware copying that.  But, I agree with Ecael that getting loot as resources is better.