166 réponses à ce sujet

[Ecael]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

I don't think they should. Except heavy pistols (which are mostly useless), the guns are tied up to classes or different situations. I think the player should use different weapons because the situations says so, not because they ran out of ammo.

MGS4 economy system is indeed very good, I wouldn't mind Bioware copying that.  But, I agree with Ecael that getting loot as resources is better.

For some players, they end up using their best SMG, assault rifle or sniper rifle for every situation. I think that's what they wanted to avoid in Mass Effect 2 - sticking to one single weapon for every need.

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

Regarding the Squad armor it would probably be best to Seppard collect only a few varients for each species or group. Having 3 different krogan armors for Wrex, Grunt and any other Krogan squad mates that can have their colour changed or helmet removed. Keep the system Sheppard has in ME2 but allow us to add certain upgrades to squad armor but only certain varieties and species types can take certain upgrades that are mostly aesthetic.

[adam_grif]

That does bring clunky inventory management back into the picture, however. If whatever is looted off a corpse is a resource rather than an item, it becomes much easier to manage.

No, because you don't cycle through your inventory salvaging things individually. You get ONE copy of each gun, just like ME2 already does, and the rest of that type you pick up just end up getting converted to cash.



You don't even have to go through the dialogue screen telling you what you picked up. You just run over the items and you get them (or maybe you have to aim at the gun and press A, but whatever, just something simple).

If it gets auto-salvaged, then plot-wise it doesn't make sense, even if it is the quickest way to solve this problem. Automatically grabbing a piece of technology only for it to be sent to Cerberus is... suspect, in my opinion.

What do you think happens to those weapons you scan in ME2?

As kregano said, Christina Norman already tried to implement this exact gameplay mechanic in Mass Effect 2. It didn't work out well.



People need to be ushered into switching weapons from time to time.

It has also been explicitly mentioned that the reason why guns don't share thermal clips, and instead get their own, is EXACTLY this problem. You don't seem to have a problem altering it to having universal ammo, but you do have a problem with this?



Look, in ME2, the weapon I used for the super-majority of the game was the Revanent MG. It is so good that the only other gun I ever used was the semiauto sniper, and I only used it occasionally.



They can encourage weapon switching like they already do - different weapons do different damage vs different defenses, some weapons are good for close range and some for long. ME2's combat is perfectly interesting even without being encouraged to switch weapons all the time, and honestly, playing as soldier, I'm hardly ever switching at all.

[Massadonious1]

To be fair, there are situations that warrant it, people just choose not to take advantage of it, especially when jumping to a higher difficulty.



Why should someone use a SMG to strip shields when they were so used to 1-2 shotting things with a Widow in the past.

[sky_captain]

My two cents.



I was glad when Bioware axed the massive drops. Alot of drops just clutters thing up and later in the game makes any resource you have meaningless. Before ME2 dropped I started a new ME1 career. By the end I had over 10 million credits after buying 2 full sets (Pistol, Sniper, Shotgun, and Assaulf Rifle,) of both types of Specter weapon in addition to different armors. what we need is a system the lets us mod existing weapons the way we want to.



I suggest and extention of the scanning and buying system in ME2. We find weapon mods that affect different weapon stats and appearance in stores or scanned from fallen enemies in addition to the usual damage modifers. When back on the Normandy we then spend the resources (if scanned) to produce said mod. We can then enter a a screen where we mod weapon in similar fasion as Battlefield Bad Company where we select what barrel, sight, and stock mod we want to have. Bingo more customizable weapons no extra mess.



I would have armor work in the same way where we have pieces to add to our and our squads armor. This would of course require that our whole squad go back to wearing armor. I know that us guys like seeing Miranda in her skin tight outfit kicking @*# but come on.

[Admoniter]

adam_grif wrote...
They can encourage weapon switching like they already do - different weapons do different damage vs different defenses, some weapons are good for close range and some for long. ME2's combat is perfectly interesting even without being encouraged to switch weapons all the time, and honestly, playing as soldier, I'm hardly ever switching at all.

This is true however, if they really do want to encourage weapon switching then I believe they should give the weapons proper range multipliers. Hell, even if they don't want to encourage weapon switching; they should at least feature optimal ranges for all weapons where they recieve the range modifier. As it stands snipers have no range modifiers and everything else (excluding heavy weapons) gets the biggest bonus at point blank. For example I think the system should manifest like this.

Shotguns - Optimal range (point blank (2.00x modifier)) Effective range (Close (1.25x modifier)) Innefective (Medium - Long (no modifier))
Sniper Rifles - Optimal range (long) Effective range (medium) Innefective (Close - Point Blank)
Assault Rifles - Optimal range (Medium (1.50x)) Effective range (Close, Long (1.13x))

 Mind you this is quite general. Weapons could have these modifiers changed based on mods installed, ammo types, or the weapon itself. And certain weapons within catagories could have different modifiers than the base line (i.e. the Eviserator would have it's effective range changed to close and medium.)





Now as for the OP, I like some of you ideas, others I'm a little iffy on.

First off yes to squad armor, yes so so much. You have no idea how many times I have wanted to just let Miranda perish on a mission simply because she decided to wear her fetish-wear on a battlefield.  I don't care how advanced your latex is, it doesn't protect against mass accelerators or teeth. And you need more than shields to protect against environmental hazards (the codex says so.) Seriousley those outfits belong on the Normandy and other safe environments like hubs.

Now onto consumables; I'll admit when I first read the OP I was a little put off. However, upon further consideration I think that having things like what you mentioned is definitely a cool idea.

Before, I address your point of thermal clips, I feel the need to state that backfiring should not be in on heavy weapons, period. However they could manifest in a more interesting way.

Onto thermal clips; for the most part I agree completely. One major point I disagree on is that passive cooling should not always be on, not firing your weapon for a while a period of time should bring it back to full capacity. Also swapping another heatsink into the weapon should be exclusively manual. That way at any time you can cgo for an instant cool down or just wait for you weapon to cool down. The shared pool is also something I like; now with this system the frequency of clip drops would have to be reduced, otherwise you could constantly pop in new clips without fear of running out and never need to rely on the passive cooling system.

Speaking of passive cooling, it should be affected by the environment, i.e. hotter planets make weapons build up heat faster, colder do the oppostie and places with no atmostphere result in heat radiating from your weapon (passive cooling becomes useless and you need ot rely on thermal clips.) Now regarding backfiring, I think it should be included  in some form. Overheating your weapon still results in a cool-down (should you not choose to swap thermal clips.) However, continually overheating your weapon results in an exponetially longer cool-down period. Overheat your gun one too many times however, and your gun ceases to function and you have to pick up a replacement from a weapons locker.

I would also like to see an overclocking mode on weapons where damage and rof are exponentially increased at the expense of building up so much heat that thermal clips are required for continued function.

Now onto the things I'm not as fond of. Shepard should not nead to scavenge material off his defeated foes. I imagine the Normandy's facilities are plenty capable of manufacturing all things encountered provided you have the resources necessary and the schematics. By all means you should be allowed to pick up new weapons or armor sets off of dead foes, but upgrades, mods, etc should only require scans and resources, or simply purchase them if you have that kind of money to throw around.

As for mods and upgrades, I still think that upgrades should exist in their base form (assault rifle damage, damage protection, heatsink pool increase, etc.) Mods themselves should function similar to ME1 with weapons and armors (omni-tools and bio-amps should be included in this to) having slots (also having an upgrade option to increase the amoint of slots the equipment in question holds would be nice.) The mods functions can be similar to those in ME1.

Now something I think we should be able to mod is the weapons effectiveness against defenses. For example asides from the regular mod slots, and the ammo slot you would have another slot where you can mod your defense modifier; each with their own tradoffs. Do you add an armor mod to your Carnifex making it fire slower and having a lower heat capacity (and still terrible at taking out shields/barriers) but at the same time turning it into an anti-everything canon (think the magnum for Halo CE, seriousley that thing could take down aircraft.) Or do you pop in a shield/barrier mod, making it more effective at taking them down, with a modified rof at the expense of less damage and a reduced armor modifier. The posibilites are endless.

One thing I really don't like about your post is the I-IV thing; IMO that needs to stay buried. Instead why not allow upgrades to effect mods as well (i.e. weapons mod upgrade.) Or if the tier system is reintroduced at least make it less cluttered. Why not just have three tiers each being significantly better than the previous available for research (or  purchase) once you reach the respective level. ( levels 1-10 (tier 1) 11-20 (tier 2)) With a fourth tier of everything being availabe for those playing through a ng+.

Modifié par Admoniter, 30 juin 2010 - 11:50 .

[NvVanity]

ME2's interface was totally focussed on the idea of being "invisible" whenever possible. In keeping with it's design goal of minimalism, a superior interface would be one that displays CURRENT WEAPON, and heat status in detail, and then simply has a small icon for the other weapon surrounding your weapon, but they are only displayed if the weapons are overheated.

This is exactly like the cooldown for squadmates display , exxcept it has gun silhouettes and a colour. There is no actual meter, instead the colour shifts from red down to white, then disappears when it's ready to fire again.

Additionally, I don't like the idea that partilaly-heated guns can't cool down. I absolutely think they should. Basically, the cooldown should be quite a bit slower than ME1, passively. Not enormously, but perhaps 30-50% longer to cooldown without popping a heatsink as the default (-insert name- 1) weapons. This way, there is an insentive for you to use the thermal clips, even if you're keeping your heat under control (relatively speaking), but it still makes sense. The idea that a gun can't cool down unless it's been TOTALLY OVERHEATED doesn't make any sennse.

As kregano said, Christina Norman already tried to implement this exact gameplay mechanic in Mass Effect 2. It didn't work out well.

People need to be ushered into switching weapons from time to time.

Well to add in my idea if any of you played Far Cry 2 there was a system where as you used a gun overtime it would jam and eventually break if used too often. Something similar could be implemented regarding cool downs.

You can use your Assault Rifle and it overheats and you let it cool down instead of using a clip. Doing this for a few times puts strain into the gun and it starts to malfunction and requires a thermal clip in order to cool down and start firing again.

Using the upgrade system you could upgrade the gun to make it that it takes more periods of Cooling Down before it starts to malfunction. Reliability Stats and Upgrades would be an interesting addition imo as people would be able to let their gun cool down but still be forced to retrieve thermal clips for whether they want to cool it down instantly in the heat of battle or use it to fix their malfunctioning weapon.

[Ecael]

adam_grif wrote...

It has also been explicitly mentioned that the reason why guns don't share thermal clips, and instead get their own, is EXACTLY this problem. You don't seem to have a problem altering it to having universal ammo, but you do have a problem with this?

Look, in ME2, the weapon I used for the super-majority of the game was the Revanent MG. It is so good that the only other gun I ever used was the semiauto sniper, and I only used it occasionally.

They can encourage weapon switching like they already do - different weapons do different damage vs different defenses, some weapons are good for close range and some for long. ME2's combat is perfectly interesting even without being encouraged to switch weapons all the time, and honestly, playing as soldier, I'm hardly ever switching at all.

That's true. Universal thermal clips are much more difficult to implement than it seems to be.

Encouraging weapon switching may simply involve making sure that no single gun is overpowered for every situation, like you said. I still hope that they'd include some kind of manual cooling option for weapons.

[glacier1701]

Ecael wrote...

The heavy weapons ammo is more of a gameplay balancing mechanic than anything. If we could start making our own ammo, then BioWare would have to balance it with the heavy weapon backfire idea listed in the original post.

To be honest the concept of limited ammo makes a mockery of the game. It suggests that over powerful weapons are only for show and not for use. The better way would have been to either downgrade weapon performance or upgrade damage the npcs can take. It makes no sense that someone who has (if you take back specter status) access to Council resources has to scrounge around for heavy weapon ammo. However I did say that the non-use of manufacturing these clips can be tied into an achievement in that if you do not use it you get an achievement. Nor does use of the clip manufacturing mean that you'll find ANY when on a mission and thus over use means that the latter fights in that mission may be much harder. So it does not mean a shoot 'em till they glow mentality will work as you will still have to husband your shots carefully.  It does not need a backfire mechanism as the balance is on 'are there clips to be found if you shoot off all you started with'.

Modifié par glacier1701, 02 juillet 2010 - 05:43 .

[Ecael]

glacier1701 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

The heavy weapons ammo is more of a gameplay balancing mechanic than anything. If we could start making our own ammo, then BioWare would have to balance it with the heavy weapon backfire idea listed in the original post.

To be honest the concept of limited ammo makes a mockery of the game. It suggests that over powerful weapons are only for show and not for use. The better way would have been to either downgrade weapon performance or upgrade damage the npcs can take. It makes no sense that someone who has (if you take back specter status) access to Council resources has to scrounge around for heavy weapon ammo. However I did say that the non-use of manufacturing these clips can be tied into an achievement in that if you do not use it you get an achievement. Nor does use of the clip manufacturing mean that you'll find ANY when on a mission and thus over use means that the latter fights in that mission may be much harder. So it does not mean a shoot 'em till they glow mentality will work as you will still have to husband your shots carefully.  It does not need a backfire mechanism as the balance is on 'are there clips to be found if you shoot off all you started with'.

Well, it makes no sense that someone with Council resources can't afford dual-wielding Cains for all their squadmates, either.



Heavy weapons are for use, but they don't want it to be subject to abuse. If part of the gameplay is knowing or figuring out which weapon to use for the situation, then heavy weapons are best used for high-risk or heavy-risk situations.

[cachx]

Ecael wrote...
Heavy weapons are for use, but they don't want it to be subject to abuse. If part of the gameplay is knowing or figuring out which weapon to use for the situation, then heavy weapons are best used for high-risk or heavy-risk situations.

Look at thiiis... *ejem

Well, heavy weapons are a lot more fun than grenades, mostly because there's is a greater variety of effects you can add to them. The only thing I would like to change about that is the way you get ammo for them, I really don't like carrying a fully charged Cain and watch the Heavy ammo I find go to waste, the heavy ammo cases do refill your heatsinks to full, so it's not a total waste, but still, I would like to manage that outside a mission.

I like the idea behind the weapon system right now,  as you don't simply pick the weapon with the biggest damage, but the one that's best for the job. The problem is (a) You don't know what the "job" is unless you are really familiar with the game, and ( most people prefer to avoid the hassle and pick the most balanced weapon instead. On some instances, this idea works, I have seen Vanguards arguing about their favorite shotguns .

Considering the fun I'm having editing the weapon propierties on the coalesced.ini I would support a system where you have generic weapons with base values that you can mod freely according to your playstyle (by buying and finding pieces), by modding things like damage/recoil/clip size/stability and so on. Extra points if you could do things like changing their colors. This brings a layer of customization that is currently missing. 

I like the OP heat sink /cooldown idea. Specially the part where if you choose to cooldown a weapon manually, you need to wait until is fully cooled before using it again, circumventing the system and firing partially cooled weapons would be imbalanced ME1 style.

I'm still not confortable with the idea of consumables, though...

Still waiting for a Ecael thread for gameplay and/or squad level up .

[glacier1701]

Well cachx hit the nail on the head. The problem is that UNLESS you know what you are to face you really have no idea what is the best heavy weapon to take nor what might be around the corner. The use of heavy weapons ONLY becomes practical when you know what you will face and can take the right one to use which defeats the whole purpose of them anyways. Allowing refill of heavy weapons between missions means you can MAKE a mistake thus using them without handicapping yourself at a later point. Limited ammo makes for NON USE which is not the point. Perhaps even more to the point is that you can get through any mission without need to use a heavy weapon which then begs the question of why have them in the first place! As I said having limited ammo introduces a handicap of strongly discouraging their use which is not the point of having them in the first place. If I do not need the weapon I should be able NOT to carry one and carry additional ammo for my other weapons instead.



It is also discouraging that once you do have a full heavy weapon ammo load any extra you find is wasted. I mean how in heck does heavy weapon ammo suddenly become magically normal weapon ammo? And why cant it go the other way? The current system while perhaps used by BW as a balance introduces problems with discouraging use of heavy weapons, items suddenly becoming other items without any ingame reason and rewards those who have played the game or have step-by-step playthroughs. It does NOT reward or help out the first timer and that is what the primary function should be.

[sky_captain]

cachx wrote...

I like the idea behind the weapon system right now,  as you don't simply pick the weapon with the biggest damage, but the one that's best for the job. The problem is (a) You don't know what the "job" is unless you are really familiar with the game, and ( most people prefer to avoid the hassle and pick the most balanced weapon

A: you are basically told during every mission briefing what types of enemies to expect, Eclipse, Blood Pack, Blue Suns or Collectors so it's not hard at all to know what types of enemies and defences to expect after having encountered these groups before.
B: If thats how most people feel like playing good for them.

As several people have stated the current ammo system for heavy weapons discourges their use. The thing that I didn't like in ME1 was how you didn't restock on grenades upon return to the Normandy, I feel the same way about heavy weapon ammo. We're shown that the Normandy does have a supply of heavy weapon ammo when we fight the enemy in the cargo hold. I understand the there is only so much that we can carry with us during a mission but we should fully restock before missions and maybe cut down on the frequency of heavy weapon ammo crates found during missions to add balance.

There are several good suggestion for conventional weapons here I still think that having thermal clips as the only real "drop" from enemies is the best way to keep things.  Maybe if we fould credit chits and weapon scans from enemies that we actually kill might add a little to the game but besides that I see no real to go to something closer to ME1's drop and loot system.

As far as weaponn and armor mods I have stated before that we have a good system in place and just need to use it more. With the scan and purchase systems all that needs done is to add interchangeable parts barrels, sights stocks ect. to the mix and just add a weapon modding screen while in the Normandy much like the armor modding screen already in existance. Then all we need is an expanded armor modding screen set to mod the armor for all squad members and we have a deeper more system for modding our character and squads weapons and armor.

[TelexFerra]

Perhaps heavy weapon ammo storage should be added to the Normandy Upgrade list?

[Ecael]

glacier1701 wrote...

Well cachx hit the nail on the head. The problem is that UNLESS you know what you are to face you really have no idea what is the best heavy weapon to take nor what might be around the corner. The use of heavy weapons ONLY becomes practical when you know what you will face and can take the right one to use which defeats the whole purpose of them anyways. Allowing refill of heavy weapons between missions means you can MAKE a mistake thus using them without handicapping yourself at a later point. Limited ammo makes for NON USE which is not the point. Perhaps even more to the point is that you can get through any mission without need to use a heavy weapon which then begs the question of why have them in the first place! As I said having limited ammo introduces a handicap of strongly discouraging their use which is not the point of having them in the first place. If I do not need the weapon I should be able NOT to carry one and carry additional ammo for my other weapons instead.

It is also discouraging that once you do have a full heavy weapon ammo load any extra you find is wasted. I mean how in heck does heavy weapon ammo suddenly become magically normal weapon ammo? And why cant it go the other way? The current system while perhaps used by BW as a balance introduces problems with discouraging use of heavy weapons, items suddenly becoming other items without any ingame reason and rewards those who have played the game or have step-by-step playthroughs. It does NOT reward or help out the first timer and that is what the primary function should be.

Isn't that part of the fun, though? I mean, if everything was told to the player before the mission (the first time they played the game), wouldn't people complain on the forums about the game being too casual or too easy?

Modifié par Ecael, 08 juillet 2010 - 03:57 .

[Mx_CN3]

I like the vast majority of your suggestions, they add a lot of complexity without being ridiculously time consuming (at least on paper).



My one single problem is your suggestions on drawbacks from the temporary buffs: random chance. One reason I like ME so much is that there is no randomness (other than bullet spray). Your biotics can't be resisted, you don't have a crit chance (other than the pistol upgrade). I hate RNG, and it'd be nice to keep it mostly out of the game. Instead of a chance to overheat, or deplete your shields, make it certain to do so, but not a complete overheat/shield drop/whatever.

Of course, that's just me and my complete hatred of RNG.

[Anezay]

I like the idea of customizing squadmate armor. It always bugged me that that they all only have two possible armors, some of which don't make any damn sense (apparently tattoos protect from the vacuum of space.) Also, I want to bring back helmet toggle. It's a small thing, but I miss it.

[KainrycKarr]

Oh my god yes. A million times yes. Fantastic idea OP!



Maybe Bioware will take notes? Probably not though. Not likely a company would take development ideas this large from a source outside of the company.

[asaiasai]

Nice OP alot of detail oriented changes which i like, for me the devil is in the details.



My real question is concerning ammo, as i really can not use the words to describe how i feeel about the ME2 system other than it really made the game unplayable for me. I found a mod, actually a modifyied Coalsed.ini which is think is the perfect solution, but i am not sure how close it works to what you described. Simply put if i have a clip fed weapon with 40 rounds i can fire any number up to 39 and while taking cover the ammo regenerates. So i in effect manage the heat of the clip, or i can fire all 40 eject the old clip and replace it with a fresh one, for 40 more but the clip is burned. I feel this is the best compromise concerning the avaliable options.



The only other point i feel you missed is combat load out, i would like more customization options, for example if as a soldier i choose to leave a shot gun on the ship i should be able to and carry the "universal clips" in its place increasing my ammo load. I have always considered the shot gun in both ME and ME2 as pretty much useless, or having to use it a break down in my tactics, preffereing to deal with targets at range and setting up the fight around that philosphy.



Asai

[Skodmunk]

It's kinda sad that ME and ME2 does not have the mod friendliness that Fallout 3 have.

With Fallout New Vegas, Bethesda are basically adding all the most loved mods from Fallout 3 to the new game. And before that they had Oblivion mods which they fitted into Fallout 3.



The only thing Bioware have are these forums, I hope they listen.

[FlyinElk212]

This pic in particular gives me orgasms.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Mallissin]

I like a lot of the ideas mentioned, some of Ecael's original post seemed to be a culmination of several discussions months ago when people were complaining about the new inventory and ammo system.

I think she did a great job finding a nice compromise between them all and would really enjoy a game built like described.

My only thing to add, when arguing the new ammo system I thought I came up with a nice Retcon for a heatsink compromise.

Mallissin wrote...

Alright, I agree with some of the points from both sides of the argument and want to propose a compromise. Let me pose to you a scenario:

Begin.

After several years of lawsuits against weapons makers from burns during thermal clip reloads and the fall of Omni-corp after the failure of their omni-gel product (also from lawsuits regarding misused of their product), a new company buys the rights to omni-gel and designs a type of thermal clip that can make use of it. They create a system where heat produced by firing the weapon is absorbed by the omni-gel in the thermal clip and forms into the next round to be fired. Their first units sell out in several days, as they are easily installed into the current thermal clip technology and there was an abundance of left-over omni-gel on the markets.

When a weapon overheats using the new technology, the user can wait for the weapon to slowly cool off or flush the thermal clip with omni-gel to cool it off instantly, causing a spray of glowing tiny spheres to fly out of the gun's muzzle. Omni-gel itself can be recovered from enemy weapons or omni-tools on the battlefield or bought at vendors.

Since the fall of Omni-corp, most omni-gel refining technology was scrapped since so much of the product remained unused and other commodity prices rose after the Geth attack on the Citadel. As the first reserves of omni-gel started to dwindle, the cost of omni-gel began to rise high enough that many corporations began to research ways to resurrect the production technology. Many of the original production secrets died when several of the original Omni-corp inventors committed suicide out of embarassment during the bankruptcy, and later attempts were never quite able to generate the same quality of gel.

After the cost of omni-gel stabilized and manufacturing capabilities resumed, weapons makers began to design new guns around the new concept, leading to several heavy weapons and shield units capable of using the gel as a fuel. The Council eventually commissioned a Volus company to design a small enough refinery system to be installed on large ships.

End.

What's this mean? We get the overheat bar back or something like it, but can reduce overheating to zero by "reloading" the clip with cool omni-gel which also becomes the galaxy's source of ammo for most guns.

We also get back omni-gel for use with our omni-tools but won't be necessarily able to create it like ME1 without an expensive ship upgrade, so we'll most likely rely on scavenging or purchasing during the beginning of the game.

http://social.biowar...0174/3#1549567

I sent the thread and idea to Christina Norman, but she told me they have no plans to change anything.

Modifié par Mallissin, 03 août 2010 - 05:27 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

If there is still prospecting for minerals in ME3, how about being able to go to Illium and other worlds with big market exchanges, and be able to buy, sell, and trade minerals?

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 03 août 2010 - 09:54 .

[TelexFerra]

Because that would make the already useless system, more useless.

[ExtremeOne]

I have a idea take this stupid cool down crap off the Biotics because its clear biotics are suppose the ME Universe version of the Jedi.