194 réponses à ce sujet

[this isnt my name]

didymos1120 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...
I disagree, if torturing ONE person brings technology that will save millions of lives, I'm okay with that.

OK, groovy.  You can be that  person.

+1 are you willing to be that person ? Or that person be someone close to you ?

Also your actually going to kill millions you see the geth are no threat, there will be no war. However when it gets out there are humans trying to enslave them and/or david breaks out again then there will be millions of deaths, just like giving TIM the base.

Hmmm a base thats sole purpose is to melt millions down into reapers, how on earth will cerberus use it. /sarcasm

Enjoy having another reaper fight in ME3:wizard:
Add that to the geth war yep achievement unlocked killed of the human race after a cluster**** on a universal scale.

[DOYOURLABS]

snfonseka wrote...

Looking at the big picture...
Choosing between saving one life vs. saving thousands.

That would work in most situations, but not in Overlord's case. If you had played through Legion's loyalty mission, that pretty much destroys the heretics. Legion pretty much makes the entire purpose of project overlord irrelevant. 

[incinerator950]

this isnt my name wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...
I disagree, if torturing ONE person brings technology that will save millions of lives, I'm okay with that.

OK, groovy.  You can be that  person.

+1 are you willing to be that person ? Or that person be someone close to you ?

Also your actually going to kill millions you see the geth are no threat, there will be no war. However when it gets out there are humans trying to enslave them and/or david breaks out again then there will be millions of deaths, just like giving TIM the base.

Hmmm a base thats sole purpose is to melt millions down into reapers, how on earth will cerberus use it. /sarcasm

Enjoy having another reaper fight in ME3:wizard:
Add that to the geth war yep achievement unlocked killed of the human race after a cluster**** on a universal scale.

I highly doubt the reprocussions will be this severe, if we get that, the Paragon players should get an equally large cluster**** for reprocussions.

[DOYOURLABS]

this isnt my name wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...
I disagree, if torturing ONE person brings technology that will save millions of lives, I'm okay with that.

OK, groovy.  You can be that  person.

+1 are you willing to be that person ? Or that person be someone close to you ?

Also your actually going to kill millions you see the geth are no threat, there will be no war. However when it gets out there are humans trying to enslave them and/or david breaks out again then there will be millions of deaths, just like giving TIM the base.

Hmmm a base thats sole purpose is to melt millions down into reapers, how on earth will cerberus use it. /sarcasm

Enjoy having another reaper fight in ME3:wizard:
Add that to the geth war yep achievement unlocked killed of the human race after a cluster**** on a universal scale.

I didn't put that right. If people felt no emotion and weren't attached to the unlucky few who are sacrificed for the rest, everything would be fine. It's when emotions and morals get mixed in when things get complicated. I wouldn't want to be that person, neither would anyone else. No one who gets tortured likes being tortured. I agree the geth are no threat and I chose the paragon option. Legion makes the entire project irrelevant as I said in another post. As for the reaper base, only the reapers know how to make reapers. Cerberus is such an inept organization they will only get the tech from it. If they get indoctrinated, that would mean your entire crew and squad was too. David wouldn't get out, he doesn't seem capable of it. And if he did, there wouldn't be a war, because it wasn't the alliance, it was cerberus. Even when the alliance knowingly broke the law and studied AI in revelation, there was no war. 

[Lumikki]

Basicly you don't have to allways play one way only. So, if some choises feels better, then choose them. No point to think when you are "something", then all choises has to be same kind. When I play, I do allways both choises and even neutral ones, I don't care is my character renegade or paragon. I make choises based what my character is, not what game think's my character should be.

If You allow the paragon and renegade points to affect you decission making, then you aren't controlling your character anymore. Because game is controlling you choises, what makes hole game very linear experience, where you (character) did not make any choises.

Modifié par Lumikki, 19 juin 2010 - 10:13 .

[Montana]

You guys are meta-gaming, unless you have completed Legions loyalty quest Sheperd has no way of knowing that there even are heretics and "true" geth, to him/her all Geth are slaves of the reapers and wresting control of the Geth from the reapers could turn the tide of the war.

There's also the fact that there is a 50/50 chance that the paragons will face the heretics again since Legion can't reach consensus whether to destroy them or reprogram them (they are split about 50/50 wether to destroy or reprogram them, whitch i take it that there is a 50% chance that the reprogramming won't work).

As for the Collector base, i see no reason for it to have an indoctrination effect since the collectors are genetically altered to be a slave race, thus indoctrination would be pointless. Also: Sheperd is in control of the only ship able to reach the collector base, any other ship would be destroyed going through the Omega 4 realy. If Sheperd wants to keep the Collector base out of TIM's hands, he can.

I seriously hope that both Paragons and Renegades will face unique problems/advantages depending on their actions in the first 2 episodes.
If ME3 is as well written as i hope it will be, there will be no 100% "right" way to make desicions. Atleast if you go full Paragon/Renegade.

Being a renegade is about being pragmatic and not letting feelings getting in the way of what needs to be done (and sometimes being an ass ).
I know my Sheperd has guilty feelings about what she is forced to do (according to her, it is a neccesary evil, personally i don't agree but that's why it's called role-playing).

[skcih-deraj]

[quote]DOYOURLABS wrote...


[/quote] I disagree, if torturing ONE person brings technology that will save millions of lives, I'm okay with that. Archer was trying to save his job, save millions of lives if war with the geth ever happens, and he gave David the opportunity to use the probably only skill he has. In regards to keeping the collector base, blowing it up will not bring the dead back and blowing it up wastes all the lives the technology will save. With the genophage data, those tests were performed on volunteers to try and cure a gentle genocide. You can't cure diseases without testing. Do you not want a cure to AIDs because they tested on monkeys? [/quote]

I agree 100% with your arguement.  Mostly because it makes sense and isn't whiney like a lot of other people.  If one person having to go through some pain would save millions of other lives then  why not use what ever resource that you can get from it. 

[SpatFieya]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Yeah, ... I wished renegade would be more about badassery and less about evil and jerkiness.

Yeah, like a 22nd century Clint Eastwood. 

[NICKjnp]

I think giving the base to Cerberus and letting the council die because you don't like them are much worse renegad decisions.... none of which I did (Paragon here).

[NICKjnp]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Yeah, ... I wished renegade would be more about badassery and less about evil and jerkiness.

Then there wouldn't be good/bad decisions.  There should be decisions that neither give you paragon nor renegade points (or give you half paragon and half renegade) in the next game.... but to wish that the mean decisions are "badass" would detract from the nice decisions and force them to be "wimpy".

[Zaisha_temp]

[quote]skcih-deraj wrote...

[quote]DOYOURLABS wrote...


[/quote] I disagree, if torturing ONE person brings technology that will save millions of lives, I'm okay with that. Archer was trying to save his job, save millions of lives if war with the geth ever happens, and he gave David the opportunity to use the probably only skill he has. In regards to keeping the collector base, blowing it up will not bring the dead back and blowing it up wastes all the lives the technology will save. With the genophage data, those tests were performed on volunteers to try and cure a gentle genocide. You can't cure diseases without testing. Do you not want a cure to AIDs because they tested on monkeys? [/quote]

I agree 100% with your arguement.  Mostly because it makes sense and isn't whiney like a lot of other people.  If one person having to go through some pain would save millions of other lives then  why not use what ever resource that you can get from it. 
[/quote]

Two things you might want to keep in mind here:

1. Would you be ok with being that person?
2. Organisations/regimes that just take people and do whatever they want with them "for the greater good" don't exactly have a sterling track record. (in real life as well as in fiction) Who would you trust to make the judgement on when it's justified?

[SSV Enterprise]

On the actual merits of one choice or the other...



*spoiler alert*



I think that the research using David was not only unethical, but ultimately unnecessary. We already know a lot about the geth and why some followed Sovereign from Legion. Blowing up/rewriting the heretic geth space station already should have gained a measure of goodwill from the true geth and struck a blow to the heretics. If the paragon choices in the main game are taken, it would seem that the geth and quarians just might be on the path to coexisting. With all this, why continue research into controlling the geth? The research goal itself can be considered unethical, not just the means- would researching a way to mind control turians or asari be a worthy goal? No. If you take the paragon route with other matters related to the geth, then the research Archer was doing is both unethical and unnecessary.

[didymos1120]

Tony77A wrote...

You guys are meta-gaming, unless you have completed Legions loyalty quest Sheperd has no way of knowing that there even are heretics and "true" geth, to him/her all Geth are slaves of the reapers and wresting control of the Geth from the reapers could turn the tide of the war.

By the time Shepard is finally revived, the tide was already quite well turned.  The geth are considered to just be a nuisance at that point.  Yes, you only hear that explicitly from Anderson/Udina if you go chat them up, but who cares?  For one, Shep could easily find out by googling on the Extranet. That line is there to inform us, not Shep. 

For two, Cerberus definitely knows what the current military situation is.  The whole project is clearly much more about the "securing human dominance" thing than it is the "defense and preservation of humanity". 

For three, even at the time of the prologue, the geth aren't considered much of a threat anymore.  Listen to how Miranda scoffs at the idea of sending Shep after them. 

For four, read the intro text: they sent Shep after the geth mostly as part of the effort to quell all the Reaper rumors.

For five, there aren't vast hordes of geth rampaging about practically everywhere you go like there were in ME1.  They hijack a couple small ships that were near geth space and mess with the weather on some random planet nobody lives on and that even big corporations barely bothered to glance at.  That's the sum total of their belligerent activity in organic space in ME2. 

Yes, they're hostile the other times you run into them, but then look at the context:

a. Haestrom, which is a former Quarian colony in geth space

b. The Alarei, because Rael'Zorah was an impatient twit who deliberately built and then activated multiple geth platforms while relaxing security protocols

c. The Heretic station, because they live there and you're running around blowing up their houses, basically

d. Overlord, where they were only active due to the Cerberus experiment going horribly wrong

e.  A couple groups on Firewalker missions, because one of the scientists was passing intel to the Collectors who apparently sub-contracted the "pursue scientists" job out to the Heretics (presumably because they were too busy scooping up entire colonies and attempting to capture/kill Shep to bother with it)

That just leaves running into Legion on the derelict Reaper, who turns out to be friendly. 

In fact, failing to do the optional missions in that list (other than Overlord of course) just makes them seem like even less of a problem.  And yes: while it's true that if you haven't run into Legion yet or done that loyalty mission, you can't know that the vast majority geth are totally cool with organics, you also don't know the Heretics are planning to "correct" that "error". 
So no: meta-gaming is not required to figure out that the geth aren't particularly a concern and Project Overlord is just plain f*cked up, much less so urgently needed for survival that it could even begin to be justifiable.

[SSV Enterprise]

The geth could certainly be much more of a threat if they wanted to be- there were an estimated ten thousand geth ships in the system that Haestrom was located in. The "war" with the geth was indeed over, but that was only war with the Heretics, who comprise only about 5% of the full geth population.

[Montana]

didymos1120 wrote...

Tony77A wrote...

You guys are meta-gaming, unless you have completed Legions loyalty quest Sheperd has no way of knowing that there even are heretics and "true" geth, to him/her all Geth are slaves of the reapers and wresting control of the Geth from the reapers could turn the tide of the war.

By the time Shepard is finally revived, the tide was already quite well turned.  The geth are considered to just be a nuisance at that point.  Yes, you only hear that explicitly from Anderson/Udina if you go chat them up, but who cares?  For one, Shep could easily find out by googling on the Extranet. That line is there to inform us, not Shep. 

For two, Cerberus definitely knows what the current military situation is.  The whole project is clearly much more about the "securing human dominance" thing than it is the "defense and preservation of humanity". 

For three, even at the time of the prologue, the geth aren't considered much of a threat anymore.  Listen to how Miranda scoffs at the idea of sending Shep after them. 

For four, read the intro text: they sent Shep after the geth mostly as part of the effort to quell all the Reaper rumors.

For five, there aren't vast hordes of geth rampaging about practically everywhere you go like there were in ME1.  They hijack a couple small ships that were near geth space and mess with the weather on some random planet nobody lives on and that even big corporations barely bothered to glance at.  That's the sum total of their belligerent activity in organic space in ME2. 

Yes, they're hostile the other times you run into them, but then look at the context:

a. Haestrom, which is a former Quarian colony in geth space

b. The Alarei, because Rael'Zorah was an impatient twit who deliberately built and then activated multiple geth platforms while relaxing security protocols

c. The Heretic station, because they live there and you're running around blowing up their houses, basically

d. Overlord, where they were only active due to the Cerberus experiment going horribly wrong

e.  A couple groups on Firewalker missions, because one of the scientists was passing intel to the Collectors who apparently sub-contracted the "pursue scientists" job out to the Heretics (presumably because they were too busy scooping up entire colonies and attempting to capture/kill Shep to bother with it)

That just leaves running into Legion on the derelict Reaper, who turns out to be friendly. 

In fact, failing to do the optional missions in that list (other than Overlord of course) just makes them seem like even less of a problem.  And yes: while it's true that if you haven't run into Legion yet or done that loyalty mission, you can't know that the vast majority geth are totally cool with organics, you also don't know the Heretics are planning to "correct" that "error". 
So no: meta-gaming is not required to figure out that the geth aren't particularly a concern and Project Overlord is just plain f*cked up, much less so urgently needed for survival that it could even begin to be justifiable.

I feel like a clarification is needed.
1. I meant the war with the reapers, not the geth.
2&3 Cerberus thinks that sending Shep after the geth is stupid because they're one of few organizations who realize the true enemy, the reapers, that's why Miranda is scoffing. The geth are just slaves, like the collectors. Sure, Cerberus' goal is securing human dominance, but it will all be in vain if the reapers win.
4. Yes, they sent Shep on a PR mission in order to hide the fact that the reapers are real.
5. The heretic station contains 2,2 million mobile platforms and 6,6 million copies (Mass Effect Wiki). Hardly a nuisance.
Just beacause you only meet geth on 4 (5 with overlord) missions doesn't mean that they're limited to just those places.  Besides, they're machines, there's no telling how fast they can grow in numbers. They take over a quarian research ship with very limited resources.

Before Legion there is no sign what so ever that the geth are willing to talk (or that they can talk at all!). Heretics is also something new at that point. Until you meet Legion EVERY geth you or anyone else meet is determined to kill you.

I personally don't think that sacrificing David is justifyable, but i can see how some people could think so.
Just look at Guantanamo bay, people held without being charged (sure many of them are guilty of being terrorists, but i bet alot of them aren't), probably tortured for "the greater good".
Sacrifices like the one in Overlord are probably made every day by people who are doing it "for the greater good". It might be amoral, even evil but it's the harsh truth.

To sum up my thoughts:
The geth aren't as big of a threat as they were but there's no telling what they would do when the reapers arrive.
And: Try telling one of your best friends (Tali) that the Geth isn't important. She would most likely object to the research in Overlord but it is none the less a possible solution to her peoples problems.

[puglous]

"OK, groovy. You can be that person."



Shepard IS that person. Would you like to go on a suicide mission into the darkest reaches of space? Having that burden and risk on your shoulders sure sounds like torture to me...



Besides, that logic can be flipped. Would you be willing to feel the death of your son a million times over to stop one man from being tortured?



Or the scenario could be scaled down. Would you slap someone in the face to stop ONE person from being killed?



I chose the Paragon path, but that was because I had done Legion's loyalty mission and I didn't want Cerberus to have that kind of power. No one can seriously think the Renegade option was pure evil, though.

[SSV Enterprise]

The alternative to holding people at Guantanamo or anywhere else is letting them go back to being terrorists. But let's stay away from that topic, as it's a whole different issue- it's not like the prisoners are innocent, or being experimented on. I think.

Modifié par SSV Enterprise, 20 juin 2010 - 01:52 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

DOYOURLABS wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Malsumis wrote...
Something good had to come out of that mess. Killing him, means all that death was for nothing.

I've seen people use that reason for a number of different choices (such as keeping the collector base, keeping the work on the genophage Maleon was working on) and I just cannot agree with it. It's not just what you learn but what you had to do to gain that knowledge. Successfully using technology that is gained from torture and murder will only inspire other people to do the exact same thing in the future with the excuse that:
"Hey, X killed so many people just so you could have [technology]. How can you disapprove of torture and yet still reap the benefits of its use without being a hypocrite?"
The answer? You can't. If you allow someone to continue torturing an innocent person (or people) simply because you might be able to benefit from the results, you are no better than the person doing the torturing. You become like The Illusve Man: someone that is willing to torture and murder (or tacitly approve of) the very people you're claiming to try to save in order to benefit yourself.

I disagree, if torturing ONE person brings technology that will save millions of lives, I'm okay with that. Archer was trying to save his job, save millions of lives if war with the geth ever happens, and he gave David the opportunity to use the probably only skill he has. In regards to keeping the collector base, blowing it up will not bring the dead back and blowing it up wastes all the lives the technology will save. With the genophage data, those tests were performed on volunteers to try and cure a gentle genocide. You can't cure diseases without testing. Do you not want a cure to AIDs because they tested on monkeys? 

Ah yes, the George Bush advocacy for water boarding - we have dismissed the benefit of that claim.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 20 juin 2010 - 02:20 .

[Daforth]

archurban wrote...

renegade action for this? never happen. even I got email from Illusive man who told me that it's not intentional work to give human pain by extremely unusual experiment. but I don't believe anything what he says since he has tried to disguise me, and persuade me from getting collector technology to take advantage of reusing. all what he tries to attempt is that making me sick. so I deny him whatever he says.

Furthermore  after seeing in ME1 how sick experiments Cerberus can do - like injecting Tresher Maw acid into ppl - I think TIM has no credibility in this front.

I left David only on my two Pro human/Cerberus Shepard, I freed David even with my Renegade Shepards (who are not pro-Cerberus). I have one Shepartd called Psycho which I play that the rebuild went wrong and Shepard is a disguised psychopath, but even with him I could not let David be still part of that.

[Prince of Kemet]

First of all, these are all great explanations BUT, did anyone read the email from T.I.M. after completing Overlord. He stated that Cerberus would find someone else with David's unique abilities. So in essence what I'm saying is, it doesn't matter what decision we make, T.I.M. always has a backup plan.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Prince of Kemet wrote...
First of all, these are all great explanations BUT, did anyone read the email from T.I.M. after completing Overlord. He stated that Cerberus would find someone else with David's unique abilities. So in essence what I'm saying is, it doesn't matter what decision we make, T.I.M. always has a backup plan.

It's all about the timing... these things take time and slowing TIM down is all win.

[didymos1120]

Tony77A wrote...
I feel like a clarification is needed.
1. I meant the war with the reapers, not the geth.

OK, fine but the renegade Shep explicitly says the only reason David stays is it may prevent a war. With who?  The geth, 'cause it sure ain't gonna do a damn thing to prevent war with the Reapers.  And those are the terms in which Archer explicitly speaks: war with the geth. Stupid, yeah, but that's the dialogue.  Not that I think "may help us in the fight against the Reapers, who've clearly done just fine without any geth killbot slaves for the last eleventy million years or so" is much better as far as justifiability goes.  I mean, I suppose it's conceivable that without the geth, the Reapers are boned and doomed to lose this time around, but that seems really, really unlikely.

2&3 Cerberus thinks that sending Shep after the geth is stupid because they're one of few organizations who realize the true enemy, the reapers, that's why Miranda is scoffing. The geth are just slaves, like the collectors. Sure, Cerberus' goal is securing human dominance, but it will all be in vain if the reapers win.

Yes, in part, but let's say the geth were descending upon Council space in vast numbers post-ME1, a la the Rachni Wars. Well, then they'd be worth Shep's time because it would be clear that this was Reaper Hostile Takeover Plan B: capture the Citadel by sheer brute force.  Plus, they'd actually be an immediate threat to everyone's survival all on their own.  Can't do much against the Reapers if the geth succeed at kicking the organic crap out of you right now. I.e., Miranda can only afford scoff at the geth because that's exactly what isn't happening.

4. Yes, they sent Shep on a PR mission in order to hide the fact that the reapers are real.

No, they sent Shep to quell rumours, period. It's pretty obvious the Council never totally bought into Shep's Reaper "theory" (those are Turian scare-quotes, of course), otherwise they wouldn't have sent Shep, who by then had basically become their top agent, to do the sort of mop-up ops that could be handled by any random half-competent captain in the Citadel Fleet.  It's clear from the prologue that this wasn't some convenient pretense to cover for an investigation into the Reapers: they really did send the Normandy out simply to shoot whatever geth leftovers they happened to run into.  By sending Shep and then publicly saying that they sent Shep, they convince people the real threat was being handled by the Citadel's finest, while also preventing Shep from talking up that Reaper nonsense to the press and getting the great unwashed all worked up.

5. The heretic station contains 2,2 million mobile platforms and 6,6 million copies (Mass Effect Wiki). Hardly a nuisance.

Now who's meta-gaming? Remember, the only way to know that (for Shep, anyway, who can't just load up the ME wiki on an extranet browser) is to have done Legion's loyalty mission, after which those numbers count for jack.  Besides which, it's obvious in retrospect that nearly all of them were just sitting there and not out doing colony raids and husk-spiking people or whatever.  Otherwise, geth attacks would be all over the news and Anderson/Udina wouldn't tell you that the geth are just a nuisance now. I mean, it's hard not to notice vast numbers of flashlight-headed killer robots, well, killing people.  Or even just their very distinctive ships flying all over the place and popping in and out of mass relays. So, yes, hardly a nuisance, but mostly because they just plain weren't doing much period (militarily, of course. I'm sure the geth servers were all abuzz with scintillating conversation and devious robo-plotting).

Just beacause you only meet geth on 4 (5 with overlord) missions doesn't mean that they're limited to just those places. 

Of course not, but unless you've got evidence otherwise, all indications are that the geth were just not that interested in picking a fight at the time.  Hence, the low levels of activity and them rarely being seen out of geth space in this game.  In retrospect, yes, the Heretics were clearly biding their time and focusing on the effort to convert the True Geth, after which squashing the squishies would again a high priority, but also in retrospect, that doesn't matter and can't be used as a justification for Cerberus'/Archer's actions.

Besides, they're machines, there's no telling how fast they can grow in numbers.

Or how slowly.  So, not a data point for either side. 

They take over a quarian research ship with very limited resources.

Wow, that's a shocker! The geth are good at compromising quarian technology...oh, wait.  Also, and again: Rael'Zorah didn't exactly make it hard for them.  Admiral Xen was right on one count at least: if Rael was experimenting on active geth subjects, then he was simply an idiot.  Well, he was doing exactly that and therefore was indeed an idiot.  You might also recall that she estimated that as few as 10 active geth platforms would be required to take over a ship of the Alarei's size.  I don't know about you, but I counted more than 10. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 juin 2010 - 05:05 .

[didymos1120]

Prince of Kemet wrote...

 He stated that Cerberus would find someone else with David's unique abilities. So in essence what I'm saying is, it doesn't matter what decision we make, T.I.M. always has a backup plan.

Yeah, I read that. He actually said they'd probably never find anyone like David.  Also, it certainly matters to David.

[Chuvvy]

DOYOURLABS wrote...
 I disagree, if torturing ONE person brings technology that will save millions of lives, I'm okay with that.

You end the war with the Geth in Legions Loyalty mission.

[Dave of Canada]

Slidell505 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...
 I disagree, if torturing ONE person brings technology that will save millions of lives, I'm okay with that.

You end the war with the Geth in Legions Loyalty mission.

Three things to note.
The Geth, when controlled, would be used as infantry - they'd be used in wars instead of human lives, with the entire Reaper invasion coming in the use of machines will come in handy. Allowing more shock troopers with less lives lost in the end.

Not everybody has Legion or has done his quest (Metagaming aside), if so then you'd have no idea about the geth being fractured into two groups with invidual goals and motivations.

Reaper Geth still exist after Legion's loyalty mission, you just brainwashed a few and put them into the fold of another group. While they aren't as 'scary' as they were in Mass Effect 1, they are still a threat that needs to be dealt with.