194 réponses à ce sujet

[incinerator950]

Tony77A wrote...

You guys are meta-gaming, unless you have completed Legions loyalty quest Sheperd has no way of knowing that there even are heretics and "true" geth, to him/her all Geth are slaves of the reapers and wresting control of the Geth from the reapers could turn the tide of the war.

There's also the fact that there is a 50/50 chance that the paragons will face the heretics again since Legion can't reach consensus whether to destroy them or reprogram them (they are split about 50/50 wether to destroy or reprogram them, whitch i take it that there is a 50% chance that the reprogramming won't work).

As for the Collector base, i see no reason for it to have an indoctrination effect since the collectors are genetically altered to be a slave race, thus indoctrination would be pointless. Also: Sheperd is in control of the only ship able to reach the collector base, any other ship would be destroyed going through the Omega 4 realy. If Sheperd wants to keep the Collector base out of TIM's hands, he can.

I seriously hope that both Paragons and Renegades will face unique problems/advantages depending on their actions in the first 2 episodes.
If ME3 is as well written as i hope it will be, there will be no 100% "right" way to make desicions. Atleast if you go full Paragon/Renegade.

Being a renegade is about being pragmatic and not letting feelings getting in the way of what needs to be done (and sometimes being an ass ).
I know my Sheperd has guilty feelings about what she is forced to do (according to her, it is a neccesary evil, personally i don't agree but that's why it's called role-playing).

Actually, the Renegade ending with Shepard Dying actually shows the hologram of the Collector base, but with Cerberus Warships moving onto it's position. 

Personally, I really hope Renegade and Paragon get seperate reprocussions and things, and not just some half-assed dialogue cutscene because you killed off the Council or not.

[didymos1120]

Oh, yeah, for the people debating about the Collector base having or not having super indoctrination powers? Doesn't really matter, because even if it doesn't have that capability itself, it can make Reapers. Reapers have super indoctrination powers. Therefore....? That's right: the base has everything you need to give something super indoctrination powers.

Give it to Cerberus, and it's just a matter of time until they find out how and start doing some of their galaxy-famous field-testing. Hell, even if you could give it to the Council or the Alliance, I'd still say "Just a matter of time..." I hardly think they're immune to the temptation. It's just that they'd probably have better intentions at first. I.e., it'd start with something like "We just want to understand the process...", but eventually it would be used. Cerberus will just get it to the usable stage faster, and won't even hesitate to do so once that stage is reached. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 juin 2010 - 06:43 .

[incinerator950]

If it produces a viable weapon, than it would be useful.

[AdamNW]

Continuing research on David is still somewhat logical. There's no logical reason to choose Morinth.

On that note, the Paragon interrupt in this mission isn't exactly Paragon either.

Modifié par AdamNW, 20 juin 2010 - 07:34 .

[Chuvvy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...
 I disagree, if torturing ONE person brings technology that will save millions of lives, I'm okay with that.

You end the war with the Geth in Legions Loyalty mission.

Three things to note.
The Geth, when controlled, would be used as infantry - they'd be used in wars instead of human lives, with the entire Reaper invasion coming in the use of machines will come in handy. Allowing more shock troopers with less lives lost in the end.

Not everybody has Legion or has done his quest (Metagaming aside), if so then you'd have no idea about the geth being fractured into two groups with invidual goals and motivations.

Reaper Geth still exist after Legion's loyalty mission, you just brainwashed a few and put them into the fold of another group. While they aren't as 'scary' as they were in Mass Effect 1, they are still a threat that needs to be dealt with.

Yes but I has Legion and I has done his quest. And you either destroy all the bad Geth or rewrite all of them bad Geth.

[didymos1120]

AdamNW wrote...

Continuing research on David is still somewhat logical. There's no logical reason to choose Morinth.

There's actually one: if you're renegade enough that Samara is guaranteed to make an attempt to kill you should both of you survive.  There is logic to that, and it is a reason. Still illogical overall given the multiple reasons not to choose her.  I also suppose that if you're roleplaying a Shep whose greatest ambition in life is to one day be mind-raped to death by a blue mutant space succubus, it's logical.  In that case, the problem is more with the premises.

[AdamNW]

didymos1120 wrote...


There's actually one: if you're renegade enough that Samara is guaranteed to make an attempt to kill you should both of you survive.  There is logic to that, and it is a reason. Still illogical overall given the multiple reasons not to choose her.  I also suppose that if you're roleplaying a Shep whose greatest ambition in life is to one day be mind-raped to death by a blue mutant space succubus, it's logical.  In that case, the problem is more with the premises.

There is no option in either games that makes Shepard "truly evil," as Samara puts it, except for choosing Morinth over her.  Thus, choosing Morinth is completely, 100%, illogical.

[didymos1120]

AdamNW wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...


There's actually one: if you're renegade enough that Samara is guaranteed to make an attempt to kill you should both of you survive.  There is logic to that, and it is a reason. Still illogical overall given the multiple reasons not to choose her.  I also suppose that if you're roleplaying a Shep whose greatest ambition in life is to one day be mind-raped to death by a blue mutant space succubus, it's logical.  In that case, the problem is more with the premises.

There is no option in either games that makes Shepard "truly evil," as Samara puts it, except for choosing Morinth over her.  Thus, choosing Morinth is completely, 100%, illogical.

So? Just because it's an evil act doesn't make that one specific reason illogical. It's simply outnumbered by a whole bunch of equally logical reasons to not choose her.  Thus, choosing Morinth is almost completely, almost 100% illogical. Like I said: illogical overall. Exactly how evil it is is a different issue.

In any event, it's still a valid roleplaying choice if you've decided your Shep is somewhat crazy in a bad way and/or kinda stupid.  Or just really, really hot for blue mutant space succubi.  Or, you know, actually just evil. Because while you may think that's the only "truly evil" choice in either game, I think you'll find that others disagree.  Most senselessly evil?   Probably get more agreement there.  At the least, I'd imagine it's quite near the top of list for most. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 juin 2010 - 09:01 .

[CroGamer002]

Malsumis wrote...

Something good had to come out of that mess. Killing him, means all that death was for nothing.

Keeping Collector base

Immediate consequences: We hurted enemy one way or the other.
Later consequences: Use Reaper tehnology against them.
Much later consequences: Cerberus owns Reaper tehnology and will try to make human dominance in extreme way.

Letting Cerberus keep David

Immediate consequences: David will suffer even more.
Later consequences: Maybe brainwashed Geth on Cerberus side in ME3 to use against Reapers. Didn't I do that on Legion loyalty mission to Heretics and encurage Quarians for peace with Geth?
Much later consequences: Cerberus owns Geth army. Pretty much bad as giving them Collcetor base, no wait WORSE!


And you don't kill him at the end od DLC.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

incinerator950 wrote...

If it produces a viable weapon, than it would be useful.

"shepard, don't destroy Sovereign... we can let him destroy the citadel and then capture him when he goes into Reaper space and enters sleep mode... it's our only option to study him and his technology. We can then learn about his methods and then use it against him, it's our only choice.", Illusive Man (that was great voice acting by the way...good job)

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 20 juin 2010 - 10:27 .

[JackhammerGR]

didymos1120 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...
I disagree, if torturing ONE person brings technology that will save millions of lives, I'm okay with that.

OK, groovy.  You can be that  person.

Welcome to your first step as a madman. Hope you like it. Next thing you know, you will use that line in every occasion

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

Tony77A wrote...

You guys are meta-gaming, unless you have completed Legions loyalty quest Sheperd has no way of knowing that there even are heretics and "true" geth, to him/her all Geth are slaves of the reapers and wresting control of the Geth from the reapers could turn the tide of the war.

By the time Shepard is finally revived, the tide was already quite well turned.  The geth are considered to just be a nuisance at that point.  Yes, you only hear that explicitly from Anderson/Udina if you go chat them up, but who cares?  For one, Shep could easily find out by googling on the Extranet. That line is there to inform us, not Shep. 

The war had pettered out, but only in the sense that the Alliance and Council had beaten the Geth thrust, not in the sense that the Geth were defeated as a military force.

Without the advantage of foreknowledge (or saving Overlord until after the Suicide Mission, which leads to some strange context dialogue), everyone would know that the Geth  remain: after all, no one has gone beyond the Perseus Veil, where the Geth are known to have hid and built for centuries. You can no more say the Geth are no longer a threat than you could have said the US was totally defeated had it pulled out of Iraq in disgrace when things were so bad: the foundations and base of their power (manufacturing capabilities, population, resources) have never been hit.

If the war had not been a strictly defensive war, there wouldn't be a Geth space anymore: weak places like Haestrom would have been cleared, and we'd be thinking about the death toll in capturing the Quarian homeworld (if it weren't still an active war). But it was a defensive war: the Geth sent an attack, we beat it off, and now are dealing with the remnants of that attack.

But the source of that attack, Geth space, remains.
The motivation from the first invasion remain.
Geth ability to do harm, great harm, remains.

And you really can't assume the Geth returning to hide behind the Veil means they no longer pose or posses the ability to be a threat, and that leaving them alone will mean they will do the same to you. Humanity didn't even have diplomatic contact with the Quarians, let alone the Geth, and the Geth attacked when they saw an opportunity.

The threat of the Geth as a whole remains. Not necessarily the remnants of the First Geth Invasion of 2183 CE, who are still dangerous enough to threaten to blow up colony cities and enact weather change on planets, but we only beat one invasion. The source for many more remains.


Without the hidden knowledge of the Geth, of the split, could you really stand up and say the geth would never be a threat again? That there would be no need to defend against a species that had allied with the Reapers once, and remained capable of doing so again when the Reapers return?

[Vaenier]

I wonder if we had attacked, if the Good Geth would have sent a representative to negotiate peace and inform the Alliance of their mistake. Or if they would just pull back to their super secret death star out between stars and disappear forever...

[Vaenier]

JackhammerGR wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...
I disagree, if torturing ONE person brings technology that will save millions of lives, I'm okay with that.

OK, groovy.  You can be that  person.

Welcome to your first step as a madman. Hope you like it. Next thing you know, you will use that line in every occasion

I would too. But I get the luxury of Metagaming here so I know how useless the torture is in this case. Its a waste of a good torture.

[Christmas Ape]

Remember: No matter how low the depths revealed, no matter what depraved acts a human soul might sink to, there will always be someone to argue it was necessary.



Subjective morality's a ****, but it's the only kind we've got.

[JustValiant]

There are far more kind of evil or sinister choice options in the game than the ones in Overlord. Shooting an innocent surrendering woman in the back for example.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, if you consider an Asari commando who willingly joined into a galactic conspiracy innocent, sure.



Surrendering is not disputed, but par for course for a Butcher of Torfan.

[snfonseka]

Lumikki wrote...

Basicly you don't have to allways play one way only. So, if some choises feels better, then choose them. No point to think when you are "something", then all choises has to be same kind. When I play, I do allways both choises and even neutral ones, I don't care is my character renegade or paragon. I make choises based what my character is, not what game think's my character should be.

If You allow the paragon and renegade points to affect you decission making, then you aren't controlling your character anymore. Because game is controlling you choises, what makes hole game very linear experience, where you (character) did not make any choises.

Exactly, 100% agree with you. Glad to see I am not the only one who doesn't care about the Paragone / Renegade alingments. That's why I am telling that Bioware should not push us to be Paragone / Renegade (It is sometimes really hard to solve problems between teammates, if you don't follow pure Paragone / Renegade in ME2).

[Privateerkev]

I'm surprised no ones had touched on Rachni genocide or killing brainwashed colonists on Feros as being the most renegade...

[Vaenier]

Privateerkev wrote...

I'm surprised no ones had touched on Rachni genocide or killing brainwashed colonists on Feros as being the most renegade...

They have very clear arguments for why they happen with actual evidence and everything. They are actually good examples of what Renegade is suposed to mean, but that meaning has long sinse disapeared with ME2. It is now just evil. So they are not really that renegade anymore under the new definition Bioware has provided.

[squigian]

Vaenier wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

I'm surprised no ones had touched on Rachni genocide or killing brainwashed colonists on Feros as being the most renegade...

They have very clear arguments for why they happen with actual evidence and everything. They are actually good examples of what Renegade is suposed to mean, but that meaning has long sinse disapeared with ME2. It is now just evil. So they are not really that renegade anymore under the new definition Bioware has provided.

I don't really see how exploiting one human being "for the greater good" is more evil than genocide "for the greater good".  Of course, that's assuming you don't know about the truth behind the Geth at the time you do the mission.

[JustValiant]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, if you consider an Asari commando who willingly joined into a galactic conspiracy innocent, sure.

"Willingly" is very debatable in this matter - at least imho. 

[Dean_the_Young]

The Matriarch and her followers weren't indoctrinated until after they had already joined. Shiala had the same choice as all of the Matriarch's other disciples: to take part in the crime or to leave. Not all of them followed, ergo, she chose to despite the option not to.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

That's why I only go renegade with bad guys. Renegade Shepard could join the Jedi-****s.

[DaVanguard]

Yakko77 wrote...

SSV Enterprise wrote...

Renegade interrupts are badass. Renegade choices are, for the most part, downright sinister.

This.

I did the renegade choice with my one renegade play through (1 out of 5) and I felt pretty dirty for it.  Heck, I even destroyed the Collector base as a renegade but this renegade choice was just..... nasty.

The renegade interupt with the damaged mech was humorous though!

what happens to the mech?

Modifié par DaVanguard, 20 juin 2010 - 03:33 .