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[squigian]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Matriarch and her followers weren't indoctrinated until after they had already joined. Shiala had the same choice as all of the Matriarch's other disciples: to take part in the crime or to leave. Not all of them followed, ergo, she chose to despite the option not to.

I was under the impression that Benezia intended to sway Saren away from his path but ended up being indoctrinated like everyone else; a dangerous, perhaps even foolish, course of action but not a criminal one.

[Yakko77]

DaVanguard wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

SSV Enterprise wrote...

Renegade interrupts are badass. Renegade choices are, for the most part, downright sinister.

This.

I did the renegade choice with my one renegade play through (1 out of 5) and I felt pretty dirty for it.  Heck, I even destroyed the Collector base as a renegade but this renegade choice was just..... nasty.

The renegade interupt with the damaged mech was humorous though!

what happens to the mech?

The mech with both it's arms shot off is standing next to you and you rather casually pull your pistol and shoot its head off.  If you don't use the interupt then one of your squad does it for you.

[Privateerkev]

Vaenier wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

I'm surprised no ones had touched on Rachni genocide or killing brainwashed colonists on Feros as being the most renegade...

They have very clear arguments for why they happen with actual evidence and everything. They are actually good examples of what Renegade is suposed to mean, but that meaning has long sinse disapeared with ME2. It is now just evil. So they are not really that renegade anymore under the new definition Bioware has provided.

Are you actually arguing that neither of those acts are "evil?"  o_O

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Matriarch and her followers weren't indoctrinated until after they had already joined. Shiala had the same choice as all of the Matriarch's other disciples: to take part in the crime or to leave. Not all of them followed, ergo, she chose to despite the option not to.

Benezia tried to dissuade Saren from his destructive path, that's not a crime.
very optimistic? of course...

The Rachni Queen and Shiala were the low points imo.

Modifié par Barquiel, 20 juin 2010 - 05:46 .

[Dean_the_Young]

squigian wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Matriarch and her followers weren't indoctrinated until after they had already joined. Shiala had the same choice as all of the Matriarch's other disciples: to take part in the crime or to leave. Not all of them followed, ergo, she chose to despite the option not to.

I was under the impression that Benezia intended to sway Saren away from his path but ended up being indoctrinated like everyone else; a dangerous, perhaps even foolish, course of action but not a criminal one.

Of course it is. Joining a conspiracy against the public is a crime regardless of whether you intended to lessen it or not.

The Matriarch could have, after all, simply tried to stop him outright. Could have informed authorities of the risk posed by Saren. Nothing forced her or her disciples to joing Saren when they knew he intended evil. They could have simply done nothing at all, like the disciples who didn't go along. Granted, they'd be guilty of not warning the authorities, but a different and much lesser crime than joining in themselves.

Guilt in a bank robbery would not be absolved if you voluntarily joined in with the intent to convince your partner to take less than he would have otherwise.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Matriarch and her followers weren't indoctrinated until after they had already joined. Shiala had the same choice as all of the Matriarch's other disciples: to take part in the crime or to leave. Not all of them followed, ergo, she chose to despite the option not to.

Benezia tried to dissuade Saren from his destructive path, that's not a crime.
very optimistic? of course...

No, joining Saren with that intent is a crime. A noble crime, perhaps, but she knew he was trouble and she joined in, much to the harm of other people.

Rachni and Shiala were the low points imo.

The only reason to spare either of them is if you believe in indoctrination (which a non-metagamer shouldn't until Virmire), and even then that they were actually under it and are not simply lying to save their own skins. Otherwise you have a enemy commando who admits to having willingly joined Saren, and an uncontrollable Rachni queen with no prior history of peace or co-existence with the galaxy.

Well, the only reasons on grounds of safety for the rest of the galaxy.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 juin 2010 - 05:50 .

[Montana]

didymos1120 wrote...

5. The heretic station contains 2,2 million mobile platforms and 6,6 million copies (Mass Effect Wiki). Hardly a nuisance.

Now who's meta-gaming? Remember, the only way to know that (for Shep, anyway, who can't just load up the ME wiki on an extranet browser) is to have done Legion's loyalty mission, after which those numbers count for jack.  Besides which, it's obvious in retrospect that nearly all of them were just sitting there and not out doing colony raids and husk-spiking people or whatever.  Otherwise, geth attacks would be all over the news and Anderson/Udina wouldn't tell you that the geth are just a nuisance now. I mean, it's hard not to notice vast numbers of flashlight-headed killer robots, well, killing people.  Or even just their very distinctive ships flying all over the place and popping in and out of mass relays. So, yes, hardly a nuisance, but mostly because they just plain weren't doing much period (militarily, of course. I'm sure the geth servers were all abuzz with scintillating conversation and devious robo-plotting).

I'm well aware that the info is meta gaming, but it's the only piece of info on the strength of the geth.
I was merely using it as an example of their size and threat level.
There should be plenty of military estimations on the strength of the geth and i'm sure that even if the council/alliance ballparks it and underestimates the geth army size by 50%, a million warriors is still a major threat!
They can in no way be considered merely a nuicance! Maybe in the grander sceme but the geth threat is very much real.
There is no way of knowing if they are planning a new attack.

[Montana]

incinerator950 wrote...

Actually, the Renegade ending with Shepard Dying actually shows the hologram of the Collector base, but with Cerberus Warships moving onto it's position. 

Yes maybe, but i'm counting on that Shep survives, and in that ending, no Cerberus ships are visible on the hologram.

If Shep is alive, he has control of the only ship avalable to traverse the Omega 4 relay. If he's dead, well then Cerberus has free reign of the collector base.
But my Shep isn't  planning on dying!

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Matriarch and her followers weren't indoctrinated until after they had already joined. Shiala had the same choice as all of the Matriarch's other disciples: to take part in the crime or to leave. Not all of them followed, ergo, she chose to despite the option not to.

Benezia tried to dissuade Saren from his destructive path, that's not a crime.
very optimistic? of course...

No, joining Saren with that intent is a crime. A noble crime, perhaps, but she knew he was trouble and she joined in, much to the harm of other people.

Rachni and Shiala were the low points imo.

The only reason to spare either of them is if you believe in indoctrination (which a non-metagamer shouldn't until Virmire), and even then that they were actually under it and are not simply lying to save their own skins. Otherwise you have a enemy commando who admits to having willingly joined Saren, and an uncontrollable Rachni queen with no prior history of peace or co-existence with the galaxy.

Well, the only reasons on grounds of safety for the rest of the galaxy.

Well, joining a terrorist organization (Cerberus!) is a crime[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]
Do you want to execute Joker or Chakwas as well?

I think a non-metagamer should believe in introctrination on Noveria (Benezia), but you must admit that Shiala is ...honest.
- she tells Shep about the cipher
- she gives Shep the cipher
- she tells Shepard of Saren's actions and how Benezia became a slave to his cause

She could lie to save her own skin, but she tells you the truth (+ she isn't exactly a threat to the galaxy).

Modifié par Barquiel, 20 juin 2010 - 06:27 .

[Christmas Ape]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

It is true that high risk operations can result in high rewards and risks must be taken in times of war, but if you look at most of those high risk operations Cerberus has tried they have accomplished nothing but to blow up in Cerberus' face and get a lot of people killed. Either those experiments are too inherently risky or Cerberus isn't tough and smart enough to handle it and therefore has no business trying it.

Fall down seven times, stand...ah, you know what? To hell with it, you suck anyway.

[Dean_the_Young]

There is always the sunk cost fallacy: the idea that past effort should shape future decision making. While we call it a fallacy, that does not make it automatically horrific. It can just as easily be used as a self-motivator (I've come so far, let me continue) or a self-justification. Regardless of how you use it, the cost expended can never be recovered.



In the context of the Overlord choice, the sunk cost is the suffering of our subject and the damage from the experiment going out of control. No matter what you do, the past isn't changed: if you release the boy and send him away, he was tortured. If you keep him in place and develop something useful, he was still tortured. The fallacy involved is that the past cost shapes the worth of the decision for a future outcome.









On the subject of Cerberus and competence, we only get a highly scewed and obscured view. We only know of the projects that fail: we almost never hear of the projects that go correct. We can't say only the low risk ones sucede (and yes, bankrupting the entire organization is a rather big risk when the threat that justifies the organization is out and active), not can we say that all/most/many of the high risk projects fail.



Cerberus is rather like the CIA and other intelligence agencies: it's successes are almost always hidden and downplayed, while it's failures are highly visible in proportion. Add in the demands of a fictional story narrative...

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Matriarch and her followers weren't indoctrinated until after they had already joined. Shiala had the same choice as all of the Matriarch's other disciples: to take part in the crime or to leave. Not all of them followed, ergo, she chose to despite the option not to.

Benezia tried to dissuade Saren from his destructive path, that's not a crime.
very optimistic? of course...

No, joining Saren with that intent is a crime. A noble crime, perhaps, but she knew he was trouble and she joined in, much to the harm of other people.

Rachni and Shiala were the low points imo.

The only reason to spare either of them is if you believe in indoctrination (which a non-metagamer shouldn't until Virmire), and even then that they were actually under it and are not simply lying to save their own skins. Otherwise you have a enemy commando who admits to having willingly joined Saren, and an uncontrollable Rachni queen with no prior history of peace or co-existence with the galaxy.

Well, the only reasons on grounds of safety for the rest of the galaxy.

Well, joining a terrorist organization (Cerberus!) is a crime as well:whistle:
Do you want to execute Joker or Chakwas as well?

Do any of those argue against that Benezia was a criminal and her followers traitors?

Equivalence arguments only work in evening the assumed moral superiority, but there is none here. Shepard commited a crime in joining Cerberus, though the legal specifics of Spectre status might give him carte blanch.

I think a non-metagamer should believe in introctrination on Noveria (Benezia), but you must admit that Shiala is ...honest.
- she tells Shep about the cipher
- she gives Shep the cipher
- she tells Shepard of Saren's actions and how Benezia became a slave to his cause

She could lie to save her own skin, but she tells you the truth (+ she isn't exactly a threat to the galaxy).

Of course Shiala would tell you the truth and is cooperative: she wants to save her own skin. All good liars know that credibility is a necessity for half-truths and lies to go unnoticed. Telling about the cipher establishes her cooperation and credibility: claiming Benezia was slowly enslaved marks the first part in her own defense. That the first was true does not mean the other is as well, especially since she has every incentive to lie to you. We only know that she is completely honest about the last because we know the validity and power of indoctrination.



On Noveria, whether one believes Benezia (trusting at best: convenient she only 'regains' control after I'm in a position to kill her) is also unrelated to if one believes the Rachni Queen. At that point of the game we have no real clue about Sovereign's age (That a geth warship could have around during the Rachni Wars? The geth didn't even exist yet!), or the scope of it's indoctrination powers (Say I believe about indoctrinating individuals on the ship: you yourself said you weren' on a ship to be changed! Etc. etc.).

[Dean_the_Young]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
It is true that high risk operations can result in high rewards and risks must be taken in times of war, but if you look at most of those high risk operations Cerberus has tried they have accomplished nothing but to blow up in Cerberus' face and get a lot of people killed. Either those experiments are too inherently risky or Cerberus isn't tough and smart enough to handle it and therefore has no business trying it.

Fall down seven times, stand...ah, you know what? To hell with it, you suck anyway.

I love subjective statements with no qualifications, you know that?  They are easy to throw out the door with the rest of the garbage.  And yes, I realize this is also a subjective statement.  Enter irony.  This would also be your cue to grow a thicker-skin and move on with your life.

I can reply with pithy paragraphs because I make no claims to maturity and wisdom, but what's you're defense?

Personally I think it's a self-evident valid point: people who give up after failing never go anywhere in life. We encourage, nearly demand that people pick themselves up and move on no matter how many times they fail. We have serious social stigma against people who never try again.

[squigian]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The only reason to spare either of them is if you believe in indoctrination (which a non-metagamer shouldn't until Virmire), and even then that they were actually under it and are not simply lying to save their own skins. Otherwise you have a enemy commando who admits to having willingly joined Saren, and an uncontrollable Rachni queen with no prior history of peace or co-existence with the galaxy.

You make it seem like Shiala had clear knowledge of what Benezia was doing rather than following her out of faith or a sense of duty. Besides, she is hardly a threat and had ample opportunity to hinder your efforts in trying to obtain the Cipher. Better to arrest than execute. Of course, the game does not give you certain options that some would take, like arresting Shiala or attempting to arrest Elnora.



As for the Rachni Queen, you're judging an individual, not a species. True, she could be lying, but I think it illogical to rule out the possibility of indoctrination, even before Virmire. As you will remember, Matriarch Benezia talks to you about it in a moment of lucidity; why would she willingly give you the Mu Relay Coordinates and then suddenly turn on you if not for indoctrination existing? Similarly, why would the Rachni never attempt communication even when the war had turned heavily against them? This is rather suicidal behaviour. Is there any hard evidence that the Queen is complicit in the crimes of her ancestors so that we might judge a species instead of the individual?

[AdamNW]

didymos1120 wrote...

AdamNW wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...


There's actually one: if you're renegade enough that Samara is guaranteed to make an attempt to kill you should both of you survive.  There is logic to that, and it is a reason. Still illogical overall given the multiple reasons not to choose her.  I also suppose that if you're roleplaying a Shep whose greatest ambition in life is to one day be mind-raped to death by a blue mutant space succubus, it's logical.  In that case, the problem is more with the premises.

There is no option in either games that makes Shepard "truly evil," as Samara puts it, except for choosing Morinth over her.  Thus, choosing Morinth is completely, 100%, illogical.

So? Just because it's an evil act doesn't make that one specific reason illogical. It's simply outnumbered by a whole bunch of equally logical reasons to not choose her.  Thus, choosing Morinth is almost completely, almost 100% illogical. Like I said: illogical overall. Exactly how evil it is is a different issue.

You said there was only one reason to pick Morinth.  That reason is illogical.  Therefore, there is no logical reason to pick Morinth.

[Neuzhelin]

There is already a discussion about that social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/2891477/12#2923418you won't find many Cerberus aplogogists there though

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 20 juin 2010 - 06:52 .

[Barquiel]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[/quote]Of course Shiala would tell you the truth and is cooperative: she wants to save her own skin. All good liars know that credibility is a necessity for half-truths and lies to go unnoticed. Telling about the cipher establishes her cooperation and credibility: claiming Benezia was slowly enslaved marks the first part in her own defense. That the first was true does not mean the other is as well, especially since she has every incentive to lie to you. We only know that she is completely honest about the last because we know the validity and power of indoctrination.

[/quote]

She could tell you everything.
"No, I don't know Saren. Who is Benezia? "
Shep doesn't even know what Saren wanted.

What is Shiala's crime? Do you think she knew Sarens plans? Do you know it?
Renegade Shepard is accuser, judge and executioner at the same time and you have no evidence. nothing!
death sentence for...joining a spectre?

Modifié par Barquiel, 20 juin 2010 - 07:01 .

[hamtyl07]

i cant go through this gamed without playing as a paragon especailly through overlord its nolt right to subject a person through that kind of tourcher i only choose renegade options when they are just hiliarious i.e. the broken mech but leaveing david there is wrong

[AdamNW]

(which a non-metagamer shouldn't until Virmire)

Or Noveria

[Dean_the_Young]

squigian wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The only reason to spare either of them is if you believe in indoctrination (which a non-metagamer shouldn't until Virmire), and even then that they were actually under it and are not simply lying to save their own skins. Otherwise you have a enemy commando who admits to having willingly joined Saren, and an uncontrollable Rachni queen with no prior history of peace or co-existence with the galaxy.

You make it seem like Shiala had clear knowledge of what Benezia was doing rather than following her out of faith or a sense of duty. Besides, she is hardly a threat and had ample opportunity to hinder your efforts in trying to obtain the Cipher. Better to arrest than execute. Of course, the game does not give you certain options that some would take, like arresting Shiala or attempting to arrest Elnora.

Faith and duty don't excuse a crime. Justify, perhaps, but not absolve.

The disciples were offered enough knowledge to make a choice and some of them did not, so yes, it does seem like Shiala knew enough to make a choice between 'don't do bad things' and 'help Matriarch do bad things in hopes of preventing worse things.'

Shiala might not be a danger at the moment, but that does not mean she is not a danger at all. If I arrested her and took her on my ship, she could go rampant and severely damage it with biotics before she was put down. If I left her behind at the colony, she could break out due to the war-weary colonists not being able to stop her. And if I left her alone entirely, she could go back to Saren and I would fight her again. And then there are all those pesky facts about aiding Saren in trying to destroy humanity, and this colony, and the appropriate punishment thereof.

Minor details, to be sure.

As for the Rachni Queen, you're judging an individual, not a species. True, she could be lying, but I think it illogical to rule out the possibility of indoctrination, even before Virmire. As you will remember, Matriarch Benezia talks to you about it in a moment of lucidity; why would she willingly give you the Mu Relay Coordinates and then suddenly turn on you if not for indoctrination existing?

A minute ago she was trying her best to kill me, and she was plenty lucid about that as well. Why should I believe her now, when she didn't stop when she was trying to kill me?

Bargaining in her final minutes, hoping to make herself a sympathetic figure when remembered? Well, it worked well enough on you, so the concern is certainly justified. She wouldn't be the first criminal who, having failed, tried to go out on a noble note and improve their legacy.

Similarly, why would the Rachni never attempt communication even when
the war had turned heavily against them? This is rather suicidal
behaviour.

Or maybe Rachni are suicidal by nature. Plenty of animals, including humans, will engage in what we consider suicidal behaviors: that's why we have wars in which people willingly risk life and limb for something, why we have suicide bombers and resistences that would sooner see the village destroyed than surrender.

Obstinant refusal to give up is hardly proof of mind control, nor does it link it to Sovereign.

Is there any hard evidence that the Queen is complicit in the
crimes of her ancestors so that we might judge a species instead of the
individual?

Depending on your interpretation on the role of genetics and memory, yes: the Queen has the genetics and natural inclination to be like the Rachni of old, ie territorial, aggressive, and it has the memories to help shape it's perceptions.

As a thought experiment, if indoctrination brainwashes someone to believe something is valid and true, and the inheritied memory of the Rachni would mean that their descendants hatched with a natural understanding of what and how their predecessors thought, why wouldn't those children who share the same memories start out indoctrinated as well?

Most importantly, though, you can judge the Rachni Queen as an individual. Her species shapes her, gives her her inclinations, and she inherits so much. As an individual, looking forward is the Rachni Queen too dangerous to let free? Or not? You can easily condemn the Queen on the dangers she poses to the galaxy in the future, not what others did in the past.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

She could tell you everything.
"No, I don't know Saren. Who is Benezia? "
Shep doesn't even know what Saren wanted.

What is Shiala's crime? Do you think she knew Sarens plans? Do you know it?
Renegade Shepard is accuser, judge and executioner at the same time and you have no evidence. nothing!
death sentence for...joining a spectre?

Shiala's crime is joining Saren and Benezia, aiding and participating on their attacks on human colonies in leage with the geth, who have already attempted genocide on Eden Prime (the bombs you diffuse) and on Feros (wiping out every human they could find).

So yes, death sentence for willingly joining a rogue spectre in acts of treason, crimes against humanity, and genocide.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 juin 2010 - 07:29 .