194 réponses à ce sujet

[hamtyl07]

m14567 wrote...

For my demonicly possessed renegade infiltrator not low enough. I wished you had the opportunity to have the "Overlord" replace EDI, who seems to have paragon leanings.

Think of the pure evil opportunities, two henchmen, Grunt the psychopathic krogan and Morinth the Asari succubus toting around in the Normandy powered by the "Overlord". Oh well...

yeah....that would be low

[hamtyl07]

Shandepared wrote...

hamtyl07 wrote...

come on now,  thats not very nice

Think of it as an opportunity. It is a chance for Cerberus and the quarians to build a working relationship. There is enough hatred and malice in the galaxy arleady. The healing must start somewhere. Plus, Veetor is surely a burden on the fleet what with his handicap...

well...... put that way then it does sound like an idea , as long as there is some dignity in it and ythey dont just use him

[TheAzureVanguard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Victim: Shiala is only a victim in the same way any geth who joined Saren and fell to the Commander is a victim: she chose a side, and her side lost.

Fascistic way: Oh, broaden your horizons. 'Too dangerous to let go' is not only fascistic, but communist, republican, monorachial, confederatorial, and democratic.

She IS a victim though...

She and Benezia joined Saren to try and change his methods. Instead they fell under his indoctirination.  How can you punish her for something she didn't mean to do.

 I was definitely torn when I made the decision but at the same time in my "renegade" playthroughs I do go thru with it.

BUT in reality I don't think theres any justification for shooting her in the back.

[JustValiant]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

StarMarine wrote...

Shiala doesn't have to been able to do harm him, but it's simply unlogical for a renegade shepard at that pont to think of her as a dangerous criminal who has no right to live one one hand and on the other hand letting her into his mind without being sure wether it could be dangerous or not. He didn't seem to have any asari mind melding experience before the events of ME1 so it has to appear high risky to him.

All descriptions of Asari mind melds to date are that, with a certain exception that Shiala has no relation to, Asari mindmelds are about as dangerous as a sponge. If the galactic common understanding is that Asari mindmelds are not dangerous, then how is it a risk as opposed to a risk-less opportunity?

Ironically the renegade Shep doesn't claim not to believe her story, his only justification for his death sentence is "I cannot let you live, you changed the sides too often" which is simply bloody stupid, because if he believes her the cipher story and the indoctrination, then Shiala didn't change any sides - she never was on Saren's side by choice.

...I can't believe you actually wrote that with a straight face. Shiala admits to changing sides. Several times. Do we need to recount?

First she was an upstanding galactic citizen. Then she joined Benezia in a conspiracy with higher hopes. Then 'indoctrination' made her a sincere follower of Saren. Then she tried to kill you a half dozen times for the Thorian. Now she claims to want to help you. Then she says she'll stay with the colonists.

The girl's been in bed with enough different factions to need to be checked for herpes.

I find it irritating that you condemn this poor soul who was abused in more than one way, who is ethical more victim than criminal in such a fanatic way.

A criminal who becomes a victim of their own designs is still a criminal. You have yet to make any sort of real case that her actions in willingly joining Saren with the intent to help him are in any way legal.

Before killling her the Renegade Shep never kept her covered obviously holding her threat level very low.

If you intend to hold cinematics to military standards, why are you here? Mass Effect is militarily retarded on many levels, both in concept and depiction. Shall we start with why only three people ever accompany Shepard at any time, or would you rather we start the laughable nature of the Krogan/Rachni threat on grounds of breeding rates?

The Renegade options in the conversation let him appear as a narrowminded, primitive slaughterman, a butcher who is not able to listen, scoffing at his defenseless victim  and escaping in the poor excuse "I have no choice" before needlessly exstinguishing a life in an almost fascistic way.

Let's see here:

Narrowminded: that would require not being able to see certain things. Like the potential risk someone can pose. The Renegade sees that.

Primitive: You're just throwing words around now.

Butcher not able to listen: Not automatically trusting someone you have little reason to believe is entirely sincere is not an inability to listen. It is a valuable life skill.

Defenseless: It's amazing how often you forget biotics. That's surprisingly... narrowminded of you.

Victim: Shiala is only a victim in the same way any geth who joined Saren and fell to the Commander is a victim: she chose a side, and her side lost.

Fascistic way: Oh, broaden your horizons. 'Too dangerous to let go' is not only fascistic, but communist, republican, monorachial, confederatorial, and democratic.

For being criminal you need more than just the criminal act itself you need a criminal intention (I wonder how often I have to repeat it). For example: if you take a handbag which belongs to another person you commit a criminal act on the face of it -  but if you think it's your own you lack the criminal intention of stealing. Benezia and Shiala did not want to join Saren, because they believed in him or wanted be part of an intergalactic conspiracy.

They did want to prevent the catastrophe Benezia had foreseen by trying to influence Saren - of course not expecting to be indoctrinated and falling under Saren's control.

But if you want to clutch so tightly at the justification for shooting Shiala that she's a criminal - be happy with it, the last thing I want is giving you nightmares when you realize that the renegade shep simply has done something very evil. <_<

[Dean_the_Young]

StarMarine wrote...
For being criminal you need more than just the criminal act itself you need a criminal intention (I wonder how often I have to repeat it). For example: if you take a handbag which belongs to another person you commit a criminal act on the face of it -  but if you think it's your own you lack the criminal intention of stealing. Benezia and Shiala did not want to join Saren, because they believed in him or wanted be part of an intergalactic conspiracy.

Benezia and Shiala did want to join Saren. Their criminal intent was in wanting to join him, knowing enough of what he intended to know it was wrong.

They did want to prevent the catastrophe Benezia had foreseen by trying to influence Saren - of course not expecting to be indoctrinated and falling under Saren's control.

That's not an excuse. Even vigilantism is a crime.

But if you want to clutch so tightly at the justification for shooting Shiala that she's a criminal - be happy with it, the last thing I want is giving you nightmares when you realize that the renegade shep simply has done something very evil. <_<

Paragon Shepard can do far, far worse. There's no sleep to lose.

[JustValiant]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

StarMarine wrote...
For being criminal you need more than just the criminal act itself you need a criminal intention (I wonder how often I have to repeat it). For example: if you take a handbag which belongs to another person you commit a criminal act on the face of it -  but if you think it's your own you lack the criminal intention of stealing. Benezia and Shiala did not want to join Saren, because they believed in him or wanted be part of an intergalactic conspiracy.

Benezia and Shiala did want to join Saren. Their criminal intent was in wanting to join him, knowing enough of what he intended to know it was wrong.

They did want to prevent the catastrophe Benezia had foreseen by trying to influence Saren - of course not expecting to be indoctrinated and falling under Saren's control.

That's not an excuse. Even vigilantism is a crime.

Paragon Shepard can do far, far worse. There's no sleep to lose.

So your Shepard commits suicide in part 2 because without Spectre status and working for a terrorist organization
like Cerberus he should'nt see any point in living any longer, should he?

There is nothing worse than need- and senselessly taking a life in cold blood, especially when the killed person surrendered, was defenseless, willing to cooperate and did not pose any threat. (sigh)

Modifié par StarMarine, 24 juin 2010 - 09:05 .

[DrSpoonbender]

The narrative that we have been given is Benezia wanted to dissuade Saren from his destructive path, and we have been given no hint that her motive was anything other than this. So I don’t see why we would attribute any criminal intent in this endeavor to Benezia.

Benezia failure was in not accounting for the fact that the Reaper would be able to control her mind. I don’t know if she was aware of this ability or not, but when she succumbed to the Reaper’s mind control she was no longer in control of her own faculties. Her body thus became Sovereign’s tool, it obeyed his command. There is no question that Sovereign’s power was augmented by Benezia’s knowledge, abilities, and resources; but again he subverted control over her free will to achieve them. Therefore Benezia’s death was tragic but necessary.

Shiala trusted her mentor Benezia intentions and her ability to carry them out. Unfortunately, she too fell victim to the Reaper’s mind control. Shiala was later bartered to the Thorian (who from that point took control of her mind). After the Thorian was defeated Shepard finds (purple) Shiala in full control of her faculties and quite willing to assist. The clones that assault Shepard and his squad were merely copies of her. The best argument for killing Shiala at this point is that she might be lying, but the fact that she gives you the cipher and the events that transpire afterwards suggested to me that she wasn’t.

Are the colonists on Ferros equally as guilty? They too did abhorrent acts (they tried to kill Shepard) while under mind control (worst for the fact that some people were shown to be able to resist the coercion of the Thorian). Benezia and Shiala are no more as guilty as the colonists are. The difference is Benezia and Shiala knowingly put themselves in danger (I don’t know if they knew about the mind control but they certainly knew that they could be killed) and I think they were heroes for it.

Modifié par DrSpoonbender, 24 juin 2010 - 11:26 .

[Cheese Elemental]

Well said.

[Dean_the_Young]

StarMarine wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

StarMarine wrote...
For being criminal you need more than just the criminal act itself you need a criminal intention (I wonder how often I have to repeat it). For example: if you take a handbag which belongs to another person you commit a criminal act on the face of it -  but if you think it's your own you lack the criminal intention of stealing. Benezia and Shiala did not want to join Saren, because they believed in him or wanted be part of an intergalactic conspiracy.

Benezia and Shiala did want to join Saren. Their criminal intent was in wanting to join him, knowing enough of what he intended to know it was wrong.

They did want to prevent the catastrophe Benezia had foreseen by trying to influence Saren - of course not expecting to be indoctrinated and falling under Saren's control.

That's not an excuse. Even vigilantism is a crime.

Paragon Shepard can do far, far worse. There's no sleep to lose.

So your Shepard commits suicide in part 2 because without Spectre status and working for a terrorist organization
like Cerberus he should'nt see any point in living any longer, should he?

That makes no sense, nor is it a coherent response to any of the quoted points.

Now, if you were trying to reply to the last point, yes: Cerberus working with Cerberus is a crime... sanctioned by the Council. And if the Council wants to withdraw that sanction, they can do so and Shepard has no legal grounds.

Then again, why this presumption of yours that you must have legal grounds to act in this narrative is beyond me. You can be a criminal for doing morally better actions. You can act without legal justification. All it means is that you are culpable for the consequences. A good intent is not a pass to do whatever you woud like in the eyes of the law.

Nothing about suicide is relevant at all, unless you believe people must commit suicide if they don't have the approval to act from the authorities.

There is nothing worse than need- and senselessly taking a life in cold blood, especially when the killed person surrendered, was defenseless, willing to cooperate and did not pose any threat. (sigh)

If you had bothered to pay attention, there is a sense and a need. The sense is security: the need is to bring her to justice for the actions of the path she willingly embarked on.

Why do you keep calling Shiala defensless? She wasn't: she submitted to execution, but she had the ability to resist with deadly force. (Her biotics.) Simply because a man does not use a gun does not mean he is defenseless.

Shiala poses a threat based entirely on how much you feel you can trust her.

[Dean_the_Young]

DrSpoonbender wrote...

The narrative that we have been given is Benezia wanted to dissuade Saren from his destructive path, and we have been given no hint that her motive was anything other than this. So I don’t see why we would attribute any criminal intent in this endeavor to Benezia.

Because Benezia's intent to dissaude Saren wasn't simply a 'I will talk to you from across the table, but not help you,' but 'I will become your right-hand man and assist you in the hopes of gradually weaning you away in the process of your worse atrocities.' Benezia and her followers knew that they would be called upon to do terrible things, and they agreed to it in the hopes of future mitigation.

Shiala trusted her mentor Benezia intentions and her ability to carry them out. Unfortunately, she too fell victim to the Reaper’s mind control. Shiala was later bartered to the Thorian (who from that point took control of her mind). After the Thorian was defeated Shepard finds (purple) Shiala in full control of her faculties and quite willing to assist. The clones that assault Shepard and his squad were merely copies of her. The best argument for killing Shiala at this point is that she might be lying, but the fact that she gives you the cipher and the events that transpire afterwards suggested to me that she wasn’t.

Events that happen after the fact can't be considered for a genuine decision, including a solid belief in indoctrination. That Shiala helped you with the cipher can be explained for a variety of reasons.

Are the colonists on Ferros equally as guilty? They too did abhorrent acts (they tried to kill Shepard) while under mind control (worst for the fact that some people were shown to be able to resist the coercion of the Thorian).

The colonists never made a decision to set out on a path that they knew would lead them to do evil. They are not guilty of anything.

Benezia and Shiala are no more as guilty as the colonists are. The difference is Benezia and Shiala knowingly put themselves in danger (I don’t know if they knew about the mind control but they certainly knew that they could be killed) and I think they were heroes for it.

The difference between Benezia and Shiala versus the colonists is that the later never had a choice about doing wrong, while Benezia and Shiala made a choice to do wrong before they were compelled to do worse. They are guilty of setting out with the intent to do harm, and bear at a minimum partial responsibility for willingly placing themselves in Saren's employ even before being indoctrinated.

Your idea of a hero is romantic, but flawed with rosy lenses. Benezia and Shiala are sympathetic, not tragic, villains.

[DrSpoonbender]

Dean the Young,



Thank you for addressing your comments so thoughtfully and concisely, it helps the conversation.



I am unaware of the crimes Benezia and Shiala performed before being subsumed by Sovereign. If they performed any acts that were beyond the pale before indoctrination I agree they should be held accountable, I just don’t know that this happened.



The decisions I make are certainly influenced by the knowledge of the proceeding results. It sounds like you as a player choose to mitigate this, I choose not to.



I bring up the colonists because of their capacity to fight the dominating effects of the Thorian. They are conditioned (through waves of racking pain) to obey the Thorian’s commands. They still have free will and choose to attack Shepard instead of experiencing this excruciating pain. So they choose to do wrong to mitigate their own suffering (Not that I blame them). While the control the Reaper’s seems to exhibit appear to be absolute.

[Dean_the_Young]

DrSpoonbender wrote...

Dean the Young,

Thank you for addressing your comments so thoughtfully and concisely, it helps the conversation.

I am unaware of the crimes Benezia and Shiala performed before being subsumed by Sovereign. If they performed any acts that were beyond the pale before indoctrination I agree they should be held accountable, I just don’t know that this happened.
The decisions I make are certainly influenced by the knowledge of the proceeding results. It sounds like you as a player choose to mitigate this, I choose not to.

The crucial difference is less of what we know they did (hard
to argue exact actions with the limitations of our knowledge), but rather what we know they were willing to do in siding with Saren. Benezia indoctrinated certainly had some sort of role in Eden Prime: would it have been so much better if, unindoctrinated, she 'only' helped Saren gather intelligence, assassinate the foes trying to stop him, and prepare for the attack? She and hers joined with the intention of helping Saren: while indoctrination certainly had them carry further into loyalty than they intended, they weren't poor souls compelled to do things they had never intended to have any role in.

This isn't information that is a post-choice revelation either: you can ask Benezia and Shiala (or at least Shiala) about it and they'll admit to it freely.

I bring up the colonists because of their capacity to fight the dominating effects of the Thorian. They are conditioned (through waves of racking pain) to obey the Thorian’s commands. They still have free will and choose to attack Shepard instead of experiencing this excruciating pain. So they choose to do wrong to mitigate their own suffering (Not that I blame them). While the control the Reaper’s seems to exhibit appear to be absolute.

Having just gone through a psychology semester and various aspects of learning, training, and conditioning, I assure you that 'torture or not' is not a free choice after a stage. Once obedience is conditioned, it is as much a part of you as the knowledge of how to walk.

The colonists had to be conditioned to attack and obey. Benezia and hers joined with that intent, and then were conditioned to not question it.

[DrSpoonbender]

Benezia wasn’t siding with Saren but worked to dissuade him. If during the course of this she consciously decided to kill innocents she is accountable for that digression, but it appears to me that her explicit intention was to dissuade any such acts from occurring. Saren didn’t need to have Benezia act against her morals; time was on his side with the slow inevitable draw of indoctrination.



My point between the Reaper’s and the Thorian’s mind control, is the Reaper’s control appears to be nearly absolute. I agree with your point that ultimately the colonists are not responsible for their actions when they are brought about by prolonged duress.



Again you have many good points and a logical flow to your argument. Thanks.

[Dean_the_Young]

DrSpoonbender wrote...

Benezia wasn’t siding with Saren but worked to dissuade him. If during the course of this she consciously decided to kill innocents she is accountable for that digression, but it appears to me that her explicit intention was to dissuade any such acts from occurring. Saren didn’t need to have Benezia act against her morals; time was on his side with the slow inevitable draw of indoctrination.

Benezia was hoping to dissuade him by siding with him: by becoming the reliable partner, she hoped she would be able to guide him to lesser extremes. The catch of this, however, is that she would have to be a credible partner worth listening to: thus, she offered him her aid and the help of those who followed her.

What else would she think her aid would be used for, given the very reason she attempted her gambit was because she felt he would be a danger?

[hamtyl07]

Shandepared wrote...

hamtyl07 wrote...

well...... put that way then it does sound like an idea , as long as there is some dignity in it and ythey dont just use him

I'm glad you saw reason.

i may see reason but i still feel kind of off about cerberus

[GreenDragon37]

hamtyl07 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

hamtyl07 wrote...

well...... put that way then it does sound like an idea , as long as there is some dignity in it and ythey dont just use him

I'm glad you saw reason.

i may see reason but i still feel kind of off about cerberus

Me too. I don't trust TIM. Look at what Cerberus's "advanced medical tratment and care" did to Veetor. He's in MUCH worse shape then if you had given him to Tali. Just because it seems "logical" dosen' t absolutely justify it.

[Relinquished2]

Kids, kids!  the trick is to have the best of both world. Be renegade to EVERYONE, except your love interest.
I could never bare picking Renegade options while speaking with Tali  not even in ME1.

[NephilimNexus]

boojumsnark89 wrote...

But you don't actually know that any good will come out of that technology, do you? It's all just promises from people who did all the dirty work - like torture and killing. How can you trust someone willing to do that, to tell the truth or even keep their word? Especially when they're shifty people like Archer and TIM, who seems to have their own agenda... Are you going to believe their words or their actions?

Are you familiar with Project Paperclip?  Here's a quick & dirty recap...


Wernher von Braun in the 1940s:




Wernher von Braun in the 1960s:




Or to put it another way... the horrors of this:




Made this possible:




I did not hesitate to hand the Collector Base over to Cerberus.  The Collectors killed thousands of humans... we may as well get something out of it.  Blowing it up seemed as absurd to me as losing one's legs in a traffic accident and then burning the million dollar settlement check afterwards.