59 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

I see a lot of debate on certain decisions you make during the suicide mission that don't seem to make a lot of sense. What makes Miranda a good leader? Why can't Samara be a good leader? Why can't Thane go through the vents?

So which squadmates do you feel should have been able to fill a certain role and why? The goal is to make sure every squadmate has the chance to fulfill a role during the suicide mission. Yes, I am aware that Thane doesn't have a specific role in the suicide mission as it is now, but disregard that.

Vents:
1st Fire Team Leader:
Escort:
Biotic Shield:
2nd Fire Team Leader:
Hold the Line:
Final Boss:

As a bonus, you can either alter an existing element or add one new element to the suicide mission to better place each squadmate in their roles.

[IccaRa]

As it is, Thane, Zaeed and Grunt (loyal) are the top Hold the Line specialists. Makes sense to me.

But I have seen where at one point in production it *was* possible for any biotic to do the barrier, Zaeed was considered to be a team leader and Thane and Grunt qualified as diversionary team leaders (while Garrus didn't.)

I think that's interesting even if it didn't make it into the final game. I think they did better making the bubble more specialized, and I can maybe see where having so many characters qualifying for different leaders could have been confusing.

Modifié par IccaRa, 19 juin 2010 - 10:51 .

[Bookman230]

Zaeed should've been a good leader, but other than that, I think it's okay.

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

Yeah, Zaeed is the most experienced soldier and his role should reflect that, also Mordin should have been able to do vents. I really wanted to see them due a covering fire choice where Thane/Garrus would have been able to head shot guy like crazy. Also who ever you sent back to the ship should have been responsable for covering you in the end instead of Jaoker and if they were weapon oriented they would beat the collectors back but if they were power oriented then got shot and fell off the Normandy and died.

[Lumikki]

Pacifien wrote...

I see a lot of debate on certain decisions you make during the suicide mission that don't seem to make a lot of sense. What makes Miranda a good leader? Why can't Samara be a good leader? Why can't Thane go through the vents?

Miranda has leadership skills. Was charge of you resurection. Also is first officer in Normandy.
Samara is loner, who hasn't talked long time with others. Remember the first talk inside the Normandy.
Thane is bionic solder, who has no technical skills for job after the went's as opening doors.

So which squadmates do you feel should have been able to fill a certain role and why? The goal is to make sure every squadmate has the chance to fulfill a role during the suicide mission. Yes, I am aware that Thane doesn't have a specific role in the suicide mission as it is now, but disregard that.

If we talk roles that "could" have been, but did not necassary have.

Vent's: Tali, Legion, Mordin (All are technical specialist)
Team Leaders: Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Zaeed, Tali, Mordin (All have experience leading other people)
Escord: Anyone
Bionic shield: Samara, Morinth, Jacob, Jack, Thane, Miranda  (All have bionic skills)
Hold lines: Grunt, Zaeed, Jacob, Thane, Jack, Kasumi, Garrus (All have strong combat skills)
Finale boss: Anyone

Modifié par Lumikki, 19 juin 2010 - 11:40 .

[Dave of Canada]

Zaeed's teams always die in his stories, I wouldn't trust him to be a team leader in any case at all.

[Tooneyman]

Zaeed is great for holding the line. Thane would have been great for the ducks. That I agree on. As for the other teams the bubble was only good for morinth/samara or jack just because they are powerful biotics. The team leaders I would have said. Mordin would have been a really good one as well. Sense he protected the clinic. As for miranda I could see it as well as jacob and Garrus. Tali's unite got killed on hastrom so no shes not a team leader. Get over yourself on that one. Kasumi is also prefect for ducks. Shes no team leader either. Shes a lone theif same with thane. Hes a loner.

[smudboy]

YokoFactor wrote...

Completely agree with Dave. Did anybody actually listen to Zaeed's stories/do his loyalty mission? How can you still think he's a good leader after all that death?

Because he has leadership skills?

1. He survived his own suicide mission.
2. Co-founder of the Blue Suns.  Dealt specificlaly with the men.
3. Miranda reacts to him the same way she reacts to Garrus when you choose them.
4. His stories are a mixed bag of people dying and being successful.
5. Miranda says "you need someone who can command loyalty through experience."  Which means experience = loyalty. First pick: Samara.  Second pick: Zaeed.
6. His loyalty mission is specifically about being part of a team.  The Paragon path gives Zaeed a character arc where he is forced to grow and change, and accept that fact.
7.  When compared to Jacob when protecting Garrus, he has no problem accepting that order (Jacob does.)

Arguing Zaeed is no good because the Blue Suns had his men turn on him is equivalent to arguing Garrus is no good because Sidonis turned on him.  (Though I see no real argument why Garrus isn't going to be a good leader.  Zaeed would simply be better.)

[NoUserNameHere]

I wouldn't have shoehorned other characters into the existing categories so much as make new categories to put people in.



Furinstance, a Sniping category would be an obvious shoe-in for Zaeed, Thane, and Garrus.

Sneaking category would go well with Thane and Kasumi.

One-man-rush-a-possition-himself category would give Grunt something to do.

[Pacifien]

IccaRa wrote...
As it is, Thane, Zaeed and Grunt (loyal) are the top Hold the Line specialists. Makes sense to me.

Thane is not a top Hold the Line specialist. He is one of the last to die, but Garrus is a better defender than he is. I've tested this, but if you'd like to try the scenario out for yourself...

Scenario 1
Have loyals Kasumi, Mordin, and Tali hold the line with unloyals Garrus, Grunt, and Zaeed.
Result: No one dies.

Scenario 2
Have loyals Kasumi, Mordin, and Tali hold the line with unloyals Grunt, Thane, and Zaeed.
Result: Thane dies holding the line.

[IccaRa]

Pacifien wrote...

IccaRa wrote...
As it is, Thane, Zaeed and Grunt (loyal) are the top Hold the Line specialists. Makes sense to me.

Thane is not a top Hold the Line specialist. He is one of the last to die, but Garrus is a better defender than he is. I've tested this, but if you'd like to try the scenario out for yourself...

Scenario 1
Have loyals Kasumi, Mordin, and Tali hold the line with unloyals Garrus, Grunt, and Zaeed.
Result: No one dies.

Scenario 2
Have loyals Kasumi, Mordin, and Tali hold the line with unloyals Grunt, Thane, and Zaeed.
Result: Thane dies holding the line.

You have to consider the loyalty boost. Thane's loyalty boost puts him ahead of Garrus and Legion.

My source is an official SM article published by BioWare, though.  It listed

Garrus>Legion>Thane>Zaeed>Grunt. In that order.

Modifié par IccaRa, 20 juin 2010 - 12:07 .

[Ecael]

As a side note, according to the game sound files:

• Grunt and Thane were originally planned to be successful 2nd Fire Team Leaders, and not Garrus
  
• Zaeed was originally planned to be a successful 1st Fire Team leader, but not 2nd Fire Team Leader
  
• Mordin was originally planned to be one of the biotic specialists

[Ecael]

Ecael wrote...

As a side note, according to the game sound files:

• Grunt and Thane were originally planned to be successful 2nd Fire Team Leaders, and not Garrus
  
• Zaeed was originally planned to be a successful 1st Fire Team leader, but not 2nd Fire Team Leader
  
• Mordin was originally planned to be one of the biotic specialists

(No, not 'shopped)

You can still force Grunt or Thane to succeed and have them recite their line.

Modifié par Ecael, 20 juin 2010 - 12:16 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Zaeed being a succesfull 2'nd fire team leader but not distracion leader is the only one making sense.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 20 juin 2010 - 12:12 .

[IccaRa]

Biotic specialist Mordin is one that gets me the most. How random.

[Dave of Canada]

Shandepared wrote...

Honestly I never saw any evidence that Jacob or Miranda were good leaders, even if they are competent officers. I also am aware of Zaeed's history but while his past does involve many casulaites it also involves successes. When he lost people it was because themselves were inherently extremely hostile situations. I don't see why Zaeed shouldn't make for good enough leader.

Yes, he's successful - casualties isn't what you want on the suicide mission though. The Collector base also happens to be one of the most hostile places in the galaxy, they weren't dealing with thugs or soldiers - they were dealing with an enhanced race of beings. A good leader would try to minimize casualties, not blitz through and love the credits.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

IccaRa wrote...

As it is, Thane, Zaeed and Grunt (loyal) are the top Hold the Line specialists. Makes sense to me.

Why would Thane (An assasin)  make sense to be a good hold the line specialist? a squishy? Definetly not. But the best? No by a long shot.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 20 juin 2010 - 12:15 .

[Pacifien]

IccaRa wrote...
*snip*
My source is an official SM article published by BioWare, though.  It listed

Garrus>Legion>Thane>Zaeed>Grunt. In that order.

That's the order in which they die. Before that article, people had consistently believed that Garrus was a top defender, so I decided to test the theory that the order in which they die is different from the order in which they can defend.

Here's the rundown of the test I did which proved that Garrus died first but defended better. The post mentions Samara, but I did eventually test it with Legion and Thane, all with the same result as the Samara test.

For every loyal squadmate, you add +1 for defense. I did the test with them unloyal, but if they were both loyal, they both get the same addition to their defense. If you wanted, you could try...

Scenario Three
Have loyals Kasumi, Mordin, Tali, and Thane with unloyals Grunt and Zaeed.
Result: If no one dies, then having Thane loyal was enough to increase his defense to the level of an unloyal Garrus. If Zaeed dies, the difference in their--you know what, I might just try this myself...

[Lumikki]

IccaRa wrote...

Biotic specialist Mordin is one that gets me the most. How random.

Yeah, that was funny, Mordin doesn't even have any bionic skills. :happy:

[IccaRa]

Pacifien wrote...
That's the order in which they die. Before that article, people had consistently believed that Garrus was a top defender, so I decided to test the theory that the order in which they die is different from the order in which they can defend.

Interesting. It's sort of convoluted, in a way.

I just simplify things (for my own sanity) by going by that list, though. Haha. Makes sense they would be the last to kick it.

[Ecael]

Lumikki wrote...

IccaRa wrote...

Biotic specialist Mordin is one that gets me the most. How random.

Yeah, that was funny, Mordin doesn't even have any bionic skills. :happy:

Uploaded the Mordin biotic parts:

http://www.mediafire...ticSalarian.zip

...Are there even any biotic Salarians?

[IccaRa]

HOLD THE LINE
Bioware's Tip: While Shepard's battle party is fighting the last boss, the rest of your squad will be holding the line. Less combat-oriented (or unstable) characters like Mordin and Jack are likely to die or put the other team members holding the line at risk--especially if they are not loyal. Battle hardened soldiers like Grunt and Zaeed can actually save the lives of others holding the line. These factors determine how many party members are killed during the last stand. Non-loyal squad members will fall first, followed by loyal ones according to this order: Mordin, Tali, Kasumi, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Samara/Morinth, Legion, Thane, Zaeed, Grunt


Whoops, it seems Garrus dies before Samara as well. Close enough.

Modifié par IccaRa, 20 juin 2010 - 12:39 .

[Pacifien]

I suppose I should come up with my own ideas since I asked the question.

Vents: Legion, Tali, Kasumi
     - One person pointed out Mordin, but his technical expertise is decidedly different from the others. He's a doctor, dammit, not a locksmith!
     - I do agree that if the person in the vent fails to open the door quickly enough, a person in Shepard's squad should have died while waiting for the door to open.
1st Fire Team Leader: Garrus, Miranda*, Jacob**, Zaeed***
     - I didn't choose Samara because, while she is several centuries old and certainly fits the well experienced description, she's worked all that time alone. She doesn't know how to coordinate teams.
     - * Miranda should only successfully lead the team if Jack and Tali are not in it.
     - ** Jacob should only be a successful leader, if the developers had given us any indication he'd been a leader during his Alliance days.
     - *** Just for laughs, Zaeed should be a successful leader only if you took the paragon path during his loyalty mission and don't get his loyalty. Give him a speech about being a part of the team, sure, he'll take that to heart, but he'll continue hating Shepard's guts.
Escort: Garrus, Jacob, Mordin, Samara, Tali, Thane, Zaeed
     - Everyone I listed were people who have a strong reason to protect innocents. Except for Zaeed. I don't know why I included him, it just seemed like a good idea.
     - Grunt is about brute force. He'll defend a strategic position very well, but not so much when trying to keep a bunch of people alive. I find Jack to be the same sort.
     - Legion would make a decent escort if the crew was willing to put their trust in a geth, which I highly doubt they would.
     - Kasumi is a paid infiltrator. She's good in a fight, she can break into security that others can't, but can she set up a defensive route to get a bunch of people safely back to the ship?
     - I didn't list Miranda because the game won't let you use her for plot reasons.
Biotic Shield: Samara/Morinth and Jack*
     - Not all biotics are the same. Asari seem to be naturally strong -- at least, Samara and Morinth are shown to be so. Jack was specifically designed to be a strong human biotic, out-performing Jacob and Miranda because they weren't tortured for their entire childhood to ensure they were crazy powerful biotics. Thane is never described as being a particularly gifted biotic.
     - * I personally feel that Jack should not have been able to hold that biotic shield unless you got her personal biotic upgrade.
2nd Fire Team Leader: Same as the first set of leaders.
     - I really have no idea why one team had to go through the seeker swarms while the other one... doesn't.
Hold the Line: Garrus, Grunt, and Zaeed are your strongest defenders
Final Boss: Anyone, I guess.

A couple suggestions where I would have made more use out of various squadmates abilities:
- Snipers: Garrus, Legion, Thane, or Zaeed needs to provide long-distance cover.
- Bat**** Crazy Soldiers: Grunt or Jack should have had a moment where pure destruction could have provided a nice distraction.