59 réponses à ce sujet

[Solenai]

I can understand both sides of the Zaeed argument. Yes, he has led men in the past, hell he led the armies of the Blue Suns for a while until he was betrayed. But in almost every special mission he undertook, he lost his entire team. I'd think he'd be a better soldier than leader. 

Tali...she might have experience leading others but she doesn't command the same level of respect as Garrus or Miranda. Her team ignored her on Freedom's progress. Haestrom is a little more difficult to understand. She might have been in charge of the mission but I think she was only in command of the science team, with Kal'Reager leading the marines. Either way, they all ended up dead on both missions. (Save for Kal'Reager) 

Jacob is one of the people that I don't think has good leadership experience. He's a soldier. There is the time he spent in the Corsairs but it's never specified if he was an actual captain or just another crewmember. If it was my choice, I would have switched Zaeed with Jacob. With Zaeed being an effective team leader and Jacob screwing it up.

For 2nd team leader, I was seriously pissed that Grunt couldn't survive a single shot to the gut. I mean he frikin has 3 sets of organs but w/e.

Mordin, I think is a unique case. He is a genius but his major is biology, not computers. If you sent him into the vents, I feel like he should have gotten the door closed by messing with the panel as if you sent Tali or Legion in, but a random team member of the 1st fire team would die because it would take him longer than if you sent a computer expert.

Thane, I think should have been a viable option for the vents. As he is a very experienced assassin, he would have had to infiltrate an enemy compound at some point and hack the security systems or locked doors when he could just sneak by them in the ventilation ducts.

For the Biotic Field, I thought Miranda should have been a viable choice as well. She may not be as powerful as Samara or Subject Zero, but I feel like she has an iron will and won't let herself fail. She may not have been able to do the huge shockwave thing at the end that rendered the entire segment of the mission pointless, but She should have been able to get the team through without casualties.

For Hold the line, Grunt can do it by himself, nuff said. Seriously though, there's no leader specified for that segment so I tend to think of it as everyone for themselves.

What I think would have been cool is when you finish the platform part as shepard after leaving the main group behind, you must play as one of the characters back at the hold the line segment and have to survive for maybe five to ten minutes to give shepard time to get to the Human Reaper and deal with it. That would have been one of the consequences if you let your team die earlier. Have to hold the line by yourself for 10 minutes against swarms of collectors; though no Harbinger drones as he's off dealing with Shepard.

Modifié par Solenai, 20 juin 2010 - 12:43 .

[Jonathan Shepard]

Ecael wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

IccaRa wrote...

Biotic specialist Mordin is one that gets me the most. How random.

Yeah, that was funny, Mordin doesn't even have any bionic skills. :happy:

Uploaded the Mordin biotic parts:

http://www.mediafire...ticSalarian.zip

...Are there even any biotic Salarians?

I believed it's mentioned that yes, but they're very few, so they keep them out of combat and put them into some special STG program. From the wiki: "Biotics are virtually unknown in the salarian military. Those with such abilities are considered too valuable to be used as cannon fodder and are assigned to the intelligence services."

[Pacifien]

Solenai wrote...
For the Biotic Field, I thought Miranda should have been a viable choice as well. She may not be as powerful as Samara or Subject Zero, but I feel like she has an iron will and won't let herself fail. She may not have been able to do the huge shockwave thing at the end that rendered the entire segment of the mission pointless, but She should have been able to get the team through without casualties.

The only way I can see Miranda holding that biotic shield long enough is if she sacrificed herself to make sure the others made it through. I'd say that would be true for Jacob and Thane as well.

[IccaRa]

Pacifien wrote...

I suppose I should come up with my own ideas since I asked the question.-snip-

I agree with most of this.

Some things seem sort of misleading, like Leader!Jacob (when did he ever show these skills?) or when the vents are first mentioned. Maybe it's our own fault, but I know when I first heard "vents" I thought of undulating, tight spaces. But then you see it and it's really just a giant hollow tube your team mates can walk casually through. Hell, even Grunt can do that much. You'd think they'd play up the "this is really a tech job" angle more.

Modifié par IccaRa, 20 juin 2010 - 01:05 .

[Solenai]

Pacifien wrote...

Solenai wrote...
For the Biotic Field, I thought Miranda should have been a viable choice as well. She may not be as powerful as Samara or Subject Zero, but I feel like she has an iron will and won't let herself fail. She may not have been able to do the huge shockwave thing at the end that rendered the entire segment of the mission pointless, but She should have been able to get the team through without casualties.

The only way I can see Miranda holding that biotic shield long enough is if she sacrificed herself to make sure the others made it through. I'd say that would be true for Jacob and Thane as well.

What makes you think this? I can understand Jacob or Thane dying to hold the field but lore-wise, Miranda is a stronger biotic than those two. Not quite sure about Thane, being that most of his abilities are biotics, but his main backround is as an assassin/sniper with biotics on the side. With that said, Miranda's father paid for her to be one of the strongest human biotics. Now, she wasn't drugged and tortured that turned her into an all-powerful Biotic ****, but I think it should allow her to at least hold the field until the door closes.

Modifié par Solenai, 20 juin 2010 - 01:02 .

[Lumikki]

Pacifien wrote...

     - ** Jacob should only be a successful leader, if the developers had given us any indication he'd been a leader during his Alliance days.

He is also second on lead in Normandy after Miranda. Also he did run security on the other stations. Not sure if it counts, but also in loyalty mission he demostrated good judgement when judging his fathers actions.

    - *** Just for laughs, Zaeed should be a successful leader only if you took the paragon path during his loyalty mission and don't get his loyalty. Give him a speech about being a part of the team, sure, he'll take that to heart, but he'll continue hating Shepard's guts.

Why not to get loyalty? Because getting his loyalty with paragon path shows that Zaeed does understand the difference between personal hate and when to put mission first. That was what the paragon side in his mission was all about. It doesn't matter does he hates Shepard, only thing what matters does he understand that mission comes first. In paragon path he hates Spepard allways. In renegade path he never learns that mission comes before personal goals. Of course the other question is, what does his personal goals affect the missions anyway. Because in end missions there is no blue suns there, what is the personal problem he has.

Escort: Garrus, Jacob, Mordin, Samara, Tali, Thane, Zaeed
     - Everyone I listed were people who have a strong reason to protect innocents. Except for Zaeed. I don't know why I included him, it just seemed like a good idea.

If you can't count anyone in you squad obey orders and just escort people from point A to B. I don't think they should be in your squad at all.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 juin 2010 - 01:08 .

[Pacifien]

Solenai wrote...
What makes you think this? I can understand Jacob or Thane dying to hold the field but lore-wise, Miranda is a stronger biotic than those two. Not quite sure about Thane, being that most of his abilities are biotics, but his main backround is as an assassin/sniper with biotics on the side. With that said, Miranda's father paid for her to be one of the strongest human biotics. Now, she wasn't drugged and tortured that turned her into an all-powerful Biotic ****, but I think it should allow her to at least hold the field until the door closes.

Then Jack's time at Teltin proves to be not only sadistic, but also pointless because humans had the means to create incredibly powerful biotics already. I don't even think that Jack should have been able to hold the biotic shield with simply loyalty, I think her biotic upgrade should have also been necessary.

Miranda says she's a strong biotic and adds "for a human", implying that there are species out there who can produce stronger biotics. I think asari are a good assumption here. I'm also going to assume that Samara is a powerful biotic even for an asari. Miranda might be an equal in combat to the Justicar, but that doesn't make her an equal to Samara in pure biotic strength. The research done on Jack produces a biotic who is capable of incredible biotic strength.

Also, we're never given an indication of how strong a biotic Jacob is, so he could also be a strong biotic for a human. Thane being a drell, don't know where his biotic abilities lie compared to others.

[Pacifien]

Lumikki wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
     - ** Jacob should only be a successful leader, if the developers had given us any indication he'd been a leader during his Alliance days.

He is also second on lead in Normandy after Miranda. Also he did run security on the other stations. Not sure if it counts, but also in loyalty mission he demostrated good judgement when judging his fathers actions.

Strong moral character doesn't automatically make a great leader. Also, the one time we witness him running security, the facility is in a complete meltdown. Good job, dude.

I don't doubt that Jacob could have been a good leader, but there is no lead-up to this moment. No indication that he has led his own teams before. When he complains about red-tape getting in the way, he never mentions how the bureaucrats were interfering in his command decisions.

Lumikki wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
    - *** Just for laughs, Zaeed should be a successful leader only if you took the paragon path during his loyalty mission and don't get his loyalty. Give him a speech about being a part of the team, sure, he'll take that to heart, but he'll continue hating Shepard's guts.

Why not to get loyalty?*snip*

For laughs.

I'd just participated in a thread that questioned whether the paragon path should have even had the choice to get Zaeed's loyalty. So there you go, go the renegade route and get his loyalty. Go the paragon route and don't get his loyalty, but gain an ability during the suicide mission.

Lumikki wrote...
If you can't count anyone in you squad obey orders and just escort people from point A to B. I don't think they should be in your squad at all.

It wasn't a simple escort in the end. If you had an unloyal squadmate do the escort, they will die to buy the crew enough time to get to the Normandy when they're attacked along the way. So since being attacked seems to be part of the escort mission, I went with people who would know what it took to fend off an attack while on the move.

[Bhatair]

Vents: Mordin, Thane
1st Fire Team Leader: Zaeed, Samara
Biotic Shield: Jacob (His loyality power is barrier after all )
2nd Fire Team Leader: Zaeed and Samara...again.
Hold the Line: Thane, Legion

Just my thoughts on some characters that could have filled some roles.

[NICKjnp]

Ecael wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

IccaRa wrote...

Biotic specialist Mordin is one that gets me the most. How random.

Yeah, that was funny, Mordin doesn't even have any bionic skills. :happy:

Uploaded the Mordin biotic parts:

http://www.mediafire...ticSalarian.zip

...Are there even any biotic Salarians?

The codex says that there are biotic salarians but that they are so rare that they are not rank and file soldiers and reserved for the Salarian intelligence services (or soemthing).

[Onyx Jaguar]

They can all do those jobs.



Thane can go to the vents.



Zaeed and Samara can be a leader.



However things don't end up perfectly with them in those jobs.



They don't fail. In fact they succeed. They just aren't perfect.

[Onyx Jaguar]

However for the most successful I agree with the points that Shandepared and Pacifen bring up. They differ a little but bring in good information.

The modified version that Pacifen brings up would explain the problem that Miranda and Jacob bring.


Also the ending

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Rather what I'd like to see is some more nuance in the leadership and hold the line segments. As the one segment (hold the line) where we are actively rewarded in our ability to bulid a team of combat specialists we really do nto get much feedback in except for a n update, and possibly a death screen of a couple squaddies. I would have rather seen some variables in there or maybe some light strategy in I dunno positioning. Maybe evven being away from Shepard temporailiy and positioning your squaddies like a tactics game to face the onrush of enemies. I think that would have made each of hte characters fit more, than what ends up being kind of how they fit in retrospect and in a metagaming approach.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 20 juin 2010 - 03:30 .

[Pacifien]

I've thought about letting the player have more control at the end defense or possibly control of the fire teams, but once I start down that path, I start thinking about a variety of different ways the developers could have done the suicide mission. There was a thread about that awhile back, so I tried not to repeat it with this thread.

[JedTed]

Seeing as Miranda was genetically engineered in a test tube one could argue that she should be a biotic specialist. I'm pretty sure she tells Shepard that her biotics are stronger than the average human's. Don't know if she's stronger than Jack, though if Shepard hadn't stepped into stop that fight who knows how far it would've escalated.



Thane should be tech specialist since he spends a lot of time sneaking around then he should be able to hack a door.

[Pacifien]

JedTed wrote...
Seeing as Miranda was genetically engineered in a test tube one could argue that she should be a biotic specialist. I'm pretty sure she tells Shepard that her biotics are stronger than the average human's. Don't know if she's stronger than Jack, though if Shepard hadn't stepped into stop that fight who knows how far it would've escalated.

I'd say if you are to hold the biotic shield, you'd need to be as strong as Jack. I also remembered that part of the Teltin research was about breaking down the body's barriers to withstand biotics for longer. This might have more to do with Jack's ability to use the biotic shield  where no other human biotic could.

JedTed wrote...
Thane should be tech specialist since he spends a lot of time sneaking around then he should be able to hack a door.

Depends on how fast he can hack a door. Ability paired with speed was the key to that task.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I was actually kind of disappointed to see Thane had no role to speak of in the suicide mission. He was the first ME2 character to be revealed, and probably the most hyped character in the game as well, but in the end he didn't really make a difference in the final mission. I'm sure he could have played an awesome role that fits his abilities. Still, he's my favorite squadmate without question. I just wish he was "there" during the suicide mission.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 22 juin 2010 - 01:18 .

[hawat333]

Vents: Interesting case. The first time you get there (I mean to the Suicide Mission), you don't feel the emphasis on hacking. Or was it just me? Lucky that I sent Legion though. Otherwise, the choices are okay. However, I imagine Mordin should have been able to improvise instead of just, well, using his not-so-developed physical strength. After all, he is a savant, a genius.

1st Fire Team Leader: It's OK and reasonable. As it was pointed out, Zaeed lost his teams almost every time. Just like Tali on Freedom's Progress. They carry out their mission, but they rather don't lead a group or even a pair of people.

Escort: Honestly, I was surprised, that Grunt, Zaeed and alike gets the team back on the ship. I understand that it's a Joker Position to send home the vulnerable members, but I expected it to play out differently. Grunt rushing toward the enemy instead of covering the team (being unloyal, probably that causes it), Zaeed for example is a rather likeable character, but also a selfish merc, him being unloyal, I expected him to get back alive and leaving the escorted group behind. If there would be special rules for this one, I think Mordin and Samara would be the best choices. Both caring for people under their protection (just look at Samara's history or Modin's clinic), more than for their own lives.

Biotic Shield: It was okay and obvious, that the all-powerful **** (no sweating, just quoting her!  ) or the powerful Asari almost-matriarch are strong enough to hold the barrier.

2nd Fire Team Leader: The same as above, however I really like how the "Samara lead the team" version plays out with her sacrificing herself for the sake of the others. It fits the charater and gives a certain dramatic taste, I often choose this version.

Hold the Line: Considering that's a rather sinister assault, I understand why the weaker ones (in terms of withholding a siege) fall more easily. However, I'd put Grunt on this list too, he's more of a rush-toward and take out a group type of fighter than the one who digs in a foxhole. On the other hand, it may had something to do with him being loyal and controlling his emotions. If I were to plan to sequence, I would have made more people to die if no "leadership-capable" characters are present.

Final Boss: Now, that's an interesting question. I still don't know how Mordin, Kasumi, or Ms. Suit survives the punishment arriving in the form of a rather large and heavy column.
On my most recent playthrough, poor Miranda will fall there for the dramatic sense of the mission.

[BDelacroix]

Zaeed a leader? Did you see his performance at the refinery? Has he lead a mission yet where he isn't the only one that comes out alive?

[Commander Gonzalez]

Vents: Thane because he is like sneaky and can find his way through any shaft.

1st Fire Team Leader: Zaeed cause he did run a group straight to the top of the mercenary list

Biotic Shield: Ehh I don't think anyone else could do it.

2nd Fire Team Leader:

Hold the Line:

Final Boss: Like when you need to catch someone why doesn't heaviness have anything to do with it.

[shoulderfish]

I agree with what most of you guys have put up here, but I think that the escort should've had to have been someone combat-focused (i.e. Garrus, Grunt, Zaeed, Jacob). It doesn't make much sense to send someone like Tali or Mordin to escort a weakened crew back to the ship. Granted, you've pretty much cleared the way, but it's hard to believe they wouldn't come across ANY Collectors.

Also, Jacob didn't even cross my mind when it came to leaders. I used Garrus and Miranda, as Miranda was your second-in-command and was a "Cerberus Tactician." Jacob mentioned being in the Corsairs, and saving the Council, but never anything that implied good leadership abilities.

[Mikka-chan]

Ah, if only we could have headed for a side trip to Pinnacle Station. I imagine Shep standing back watching the VR machine all "You're not trying hard enough! Aww, Jacky, want a bandaid? Thane, are you trying to get headshot? Look alive there, Grunt! You know I did this with the safety's turned off? Crybabies!"... until the mutiny, anyway.



The only real things that came to mind is I wish they had put less emphasis on 'fast moving through vents' and more emphasis on 'opening very complicated tech'. It makes perfect sense that Thane cannot do what is being said- he's not a tech guy- and after seeing the vents once I said "Aha, that's definitely for Tali or Legion". But first play-through I did a back and forth on whether it should be Thane or Tali, before deciding that Legion worked as having the tech and being a good unintentional infiltrator.



The only other thing I ran to is I never would have guessed Jacob for the leader-role, but I would have guessed loyal-Jacob for the shielding. His specialty is the barrier, after all. If nothing else, I would have thought it more likely for him to pull a hold the line and get Shep and two teammates in before being dragged off himself rather then losing a random.

[Pacifien]

Commander Gonzalez wrote...
Vents: Thane because he is like sneaky and can find his way through any shaft.

Going through the vents wasn't really the issue, though. It was just the means to get someone to the doors so they could then use their tech skills to open them. While I believe Thane would have developed some tech skills in his life as an assassin, the goal is speed in opening the doors. Only a tech expert should be able to do that quickly enough.

It might have been interesting making this a combo run. Not only did you need to get a tech expert, but also someone who can navigate the vents to get them to the doors in time. In which case Thane and Kasumi would be good to pair up with Legion and Tali.

Modifié par Pacifien, 23 juin 2010 - 01:54 .

[Ecael]

NICKjnp wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

IccaRa wrote...

Biotic specialist Mordin is one that gets me the most. How random.

Yeah, that was funny, Mordin doesn't even have any bionic skills. :happy:

Uploaded the Mordin biotic parts:

http://www.mediafire...ticSalarian.zip

...Are there even any biotic Salarians?

The codex says that there are biotic salarians but that they are so rare that they are not rank and file soldiers and reserved for the Salarian intelligence services (or soemthing).

I always suspected that Captain Kirrahe might be a biotic.

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I was actually kind of disappointed to see Thane had no role to speak of in the suicide mission. He was the first ME2 character to be revealed, and probably the most hyped character in the game as well, but in the end he didn't really make a difference in the final mission. I'm sure he could have played an awesome role that fits his abilities. Still, he's my favorite squadmate without question. I just wish he was "there" during the suicide mission.

Judging by the Hold the Line Death List in comparison to the Hold the Line Defense Score List, I think he was originally meant to be one of the best defenders.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I wish there was a sniper point in the suicide mission, where you choose a squad mate to provide sniper cover or something along those lines. That's one thing that would have suited Thane perfectly well, despite him being a close-range assassin.